Gentleman,

The Bazooka sounds like an ideal solution, apart from whatever I have to do to connect it. I assume adapters and/or special cabling will be needed. I've seen them but didn't know what I was looking at. The form factor would be perfect for my space. I have no room on the floor, but it would fit on the base of the RTA workstation I'm using.

Many thanks to all who have responded.

Richard

Mac,

If this is the same as bazookas of old, there is no amp included with these. These are designed for car stereo use, and are not self-powered. Amp is required - 99% sure of that.

Ryszard, just get the Polk and you'll be all set.

-Scott

Also be careful of your amplication, these are 4 ohm speakers.

Why not go with the Behringer B2092A. I have one - it sits tucked away under my desk and sounds pretty good. I don't think they are too expensive.

Kevin

This $95 powered Polk is compact enough, variable cross-over to tune to work with your behringers, etc. Just go get the thing. Sorry to disagree with Mac a bit, but this thing would be a better match for your use with monitor speakers that already should have plenty of grunt. You can dial in the cross-over frequency with this thing, not the Bazooka, as far as I can tell. You are not going to want to dial that crossover much over 100 Hz, would be my guess, maybe even lower. You'll have to use your ears. Plus, it's $95 and it's Polk audio.

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/ele/3135733426.html

-Scott

Called the OP on the phone last night, we talked about his eact situation.


Since his Behriner Truth speakers are powered monitors that do not have separate outputs in them, that changed the idea of using the Bazookas at all.

Rooted around and found that Pyramid is selling an Electronic Crossover that is affordable (Found that NADY does also, but decided on the Pyramid) the plan at the end of that call was to investigate the original idea of doing the crossover with his rather small Bass Guitar amp to begin with, maybe with an eye towards finding a powered subwoofer or unpowered with amp at a later date.

Found out that the Bass Amp he wants to use is one of those modern designs that has two RCA inputs on the back for amplifying Tape or other means of Backing Tracks, thus bypassing the coloration of the Instrument Preamp. With careful settings, this should work out okay and he can then hear fundamentals that happen below the 50Hz cutoff of the Truth monitors.


--Mac

Most powered subwoofers for home use have the full-range-signal inputs on them - you run the full-range signal from your source into the subwoofer, then the crossover in the sub does the work of splitting off the low frequency - and the subwoofer has the outputs for the mains. That's how mine is here at home, and it's how the Polk that is 95$ works. The Behringer Truth monitors would get the signal from the Polk subwoofer, sans the lowest stuff that the subwoofer handles, and all is well.

The problem with the bazooka, is that it's not designed to work that way - it's designed to be fed a 'subwoofer' signal that only contains low frequencies. At least last time I looked into one (admittedly, about 20 years ago! - they were some of the first car-audio subs that you could pick up without having to build your own).

That's also the issue with using the bass amplifier - even with the RCA inputs on it - it should only be fed a 'sub' signal, already crossed over. Gotta go buy a crossover, probably in the 100$ range, to repurpose the Behringer bass amp for something it's not really designed to do. Why not just buy something actually designed for Ryszard's actual purpose?

Back to normal powered subwoofers: the craigslist ad for the Polk has one photo of the panel showing both the full range input, the variable crossover control, and the unamplified cross-ed over outputs that you would connect to the Behringers.

What am I missing here?

I've resisted saying too much but feel inclined to do so.Reference monitors are mixing and imaging.To add a sub is just wrong.Studio monitors are not meant for sounding like the best stereo system on the planet. Most people make this mistake and Richard you are about to spend good money, that you don't have, on putting together a studio system that is just wrong. JMHO

Richard needs to hear fundamentals that are below the 50Hz cutoff of his Behringer Truth speakers.

Think about (or look up if you don't know them...) the frequency of the low B string on the modern 5 or 6 string bass. The 50Hz cutoff really can't even handle the 41Hz of the old 4-string bass' lowest string.

He has examples of musics where the bass walks down and then disappears. Yet others, usually with subwoofers, can hear it. That does not mean that you *have* to have subwoofer to hear this, certain other speaker systems may do just fine. But his do not.


--Mac

Ryszard,

With a real powered sub that has a crossover built in - you don't build new y-cables.

wiring looks like this:

signal source L ---> subwoofer ---> behringer truth left
signal source R---> subwoofer ---> behringer truth right

Floorspace required: 13-1/2"W x 17-1/2"H x 15-1/2"D

That's pretty darned compact. 250W that you can tune right with the built in subwoofer.

The only thing you might need to do is chop off the connector of the cable and strip 1/4" length that you are sending to the behringer truth monitors so that they will work in the spring loaded terminals in the image on the listing. Is this making sense yet? No parallel path per side. Each side's signal to subwoofer crossover that is built in the subwoofer, and then the peeled off non-low frequency signal is sent to the monitor channel for that side.

I disagree that monitoring systems don't have subs. Not true. Many monitoring systems have been sold over the years that use subs. You can use the sub to handle both sonic and subsonic frequencies - your choice depending on where you set the crossover frequency and the upper frequency limit of the sub.

The 'Y-cable' is actually inside the powered subwoofer as the cross-over. No need to build it yourself. Did you know that the powered subs have the cross-over mids and highs available on terminals? That's where you connect the behringer truth monitors.

Shoot, most commercially available powered PA systems with subs work this way as well. The monster Mackie PA that we used at our last 'portable' church had both crossed over and full range OUTPUTS on the subs that then went to the mains which handled mid-lows to highs.

This is the way to handle your situation with the least fuss and expenditure and with a minimal footprint. I won't try any more to convince you any longer of that - but all you need to really do is hit that Polk Craigslist listing http://atlanta.craigslist.org/wat/ele/3135733426.html , and look at the photo of the input/output (inputs hidden a bit by the spring loaded connectors) panel on the subwoofer to understand what is going on. 250W of subwoofer power with the amp, with a user setable variable crossover, phase switch, etc. $95 - no brainer.

-Scott

I still disagree. Richard's boxes are good down to 50Hz.To add subs and more power for below 100Hz is to add a false representation of what's really going on.

Look, Richard's already been presented with audio where he says he cannot hear these notes in question -- and he needs to hear them.

*Funds are limited and he already has this Bass Amp.

*Time for the "run what ya brung" mentality.

*With careful tweaking and use of the gray matter between the ears, there is no reason why the use of an electronic crossover and his Bass amp, which has a pair of RCA inpouts for Tape or other Line Level signal already on it, summed to mono, could not be pressed into service.

Richard is savvy enough to realize all the implications regarding monitoring issues.

And there is no reason why such a setup would disallow being able to mix or master either.

After all, a quick check of any source material with the sub turned off or completely down would solve any of those kind of problems.

Said it before, will say it again, if you KNOW YOUR MONITORS from doing much Reference Listening to your Reference Recordings, you can turn out decent recordings using them.

Finally, this is what Richard WANTS TO DO.

That's enough fer me.


--Mac

Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz, and then it's all feel? So if he is good to 50, he is missing some low end. Adding in budget though, that makes a difference. A crossover and separate power amps starts adding up. Boxes with crossovers sounds like the answer, though room size can dictate what you need. I have not played "compact" ever in my life, so I don't know. The last band I was in had 18" subs, Peavey 3020 combo cabinets and tweeters on top of that, and each stack was 6 feet tall. We ran our own crossover and 3 stereo power amps. (I loved running the PA in stereo. Some of my string patches had panning built in and to hear the sound pan back and forth through the fronts..... loved it.)

Again comes down to your preference and where you play. We couldn't have played 90% of our rooms with a compact system. Your application may be different. In our 30s and 40s we played in a different era when there were music clubs. Now it's restaurants that have music after dinner and won't let you set up until 8pm. (But start promptly at 9!!!) Thus the "PA on a pole" era.... Geeze, we ran 1000w in our MONITORS!

Below is a link to the music that raised the issue. I believe the low freqs will challenge almost everyone's systems. The dominant bass line begins at 0:14 and repeats until the ultralow section begins at 1:57 and does a disappearing act (for me) at 2:06. This repeats before the end. I know the bass is still there--I asked the composer.

I'm pretty sure Scott will like this. Not everyone will. It's described as "alternative ambient electronic with raw guitar." I don't know about the raw part, or guitar, for that matter. I thought it was all electronic. I kind of major in this stuff, so I really do need to hear the low end.

"Crystalis" by Matthew Peterson. Created in Reason 2.5(!).

Looking around the net I found a 20 hz test tone. My speakers, Yorkville Elites play this fine and I can hear it. My Bose is almost there, it's a stretch to hear it at all.

That said I loose my hearing at around 2700 as it cuts off. 3000 hz is never heard by me, so that's out. Actually on a piano the last 12 white notes are impossible to hear.

Some of the black notes on the piano I can't either, they seem to be the top ones.

So at 20HZ my Behringer powered mixer and speaker cabinets that are too heavy to move,work OK. The Bose, not quite. At the top end both can make tones I cannot hear.

Check out the Bazookas, Bob. Yes, I know they are meant for use in cars, but they also can make for a nice affordable, portable subwoofer for use with Band in a Box and keyboards, etc.


--Mac

Man, I should have you on speed dial. The top Bazooka is Class D 200W 10" with variable crossover of 60-250.
Sounds perfect for what I need.

Bob

As important as whether to go consumer or pro audio, is where you will place the sub. Unless you have a speaker delay unit, for live sound reinforcement you better be able to geographically align that sub(s) with your mains. Otherwise, you can suck the bass end right out of things due to phase cancellation of the sub against the lows generated by your mains, and/or make sure that you cross over so that you don't get the issue - I still like to geographically align PA subs with mains when I can.

The nice thing about consumer and even pro-level powered subwoofers is that they nearly always have the cross-over in the sub cabinet. Run the crossed-over outlets to your mains. Run your full-range signal to the sub cabinet, dial in the cross-over frequency by ear.

Bob, in your DIY kit, I didn't see you include the cost of the amp and crossover.

The Bazooka still needs a crossed-over signal to it and DC power being sent to it - from what I recall, even the amped version.

While I don't often disagree with Mac, I think the recommendation of the bazooka is a bit of a wild goose chase for gigging using A/C power.

List of items that you would need to have on hand in addition to the Bazooka sourced for $199 at WalMart:

1. Crossover network, to make sure you don't phase cancel your existing mains with the bazooka output. The bazooka has a fixed 85 Hz upper cutoff.
1a. Cabling for the cross over.
2. DC power source to power the amp in the bazooka. Unless you run a cable out to your battery in the car, or bring along a DC power source, you need 12 Volts from somewhere. You might have a DC source that can handle the current draw, you might not. Gotta get it into the room.
3. Some way to keep the thing from rolling on the floor

Regarding a consumer-grade sub for gigging: The main issue I see with using a consumer powered sub for gigging is the connectors. Most of them are going to have spring-clip type connectors - not designed for gigging. For Ryszard's use, the spring clips are no issue - he's not gigging the thing.

Also, consumer powered sub cases won't be designed for knock-around transport - the bazooka case is probably better for that. Even better is to just shop for the smallest powered PA sub you can find on Craigslist.

I'd shop for one of these babies used: http://www.mackie.com/products/hd1501/
or something like it.

On the cheap, go for Behringer. Here's one that's complete for under $500 with all you would need, crossed over XLR outs and all the power you would ever need, phase switch, etc.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B1500DPRO/

There is appeal to DIY, but when it costs more and less likely to solve your issue, sometimes it pays to buy the right tool for the job.

@jazzmammal - I was typing while you wrote your response. See the list of what else you have to buy to make that combo work with your existing mains.

@Mac - sorry to disagree so blatantly, but this is coming from a guy who loves bazookas for vehicle use - bought one from Crutchfield in the late 80's and loved the boom it gave my Dodge Omni. Unless you are a hobbyist with a spare AC-DC power supply, the right crossover setup, etc - IMO it's just not an even close to ideal solution for either Ryszard nor jazzmammal's very different purposes.

Yes, he got carried away and looked at one of the *amplified* Bazookas.

NO, not a good thing for stage work, as you would need an extremely capable 13.8VDC power supply to power the thing.

However, one of the UNamplified Bazookas, like one with the built in crossover, designed to work at speaker level, or one designed to be used with a separate amplifier and electronic crossover would work, I've done it.


--Mac

I threw that reply out just as I had to take a conference call with the IRS and a client. That only took about an hour. Then I came to the same conclusion you guys did. In addition most car audio subs need a sub out feed from the main amp don't they? The pro audio subs have a stereo in and stereo outs. I can't feed a sub with the line outs from my EV monitors, that defeats the purpose. The signal path has to go the other way, sub first, then to the EV's. And yes, I need a powered sub not passive.

Scott, the DIY plate amp includes the stereo ins/outs so it accepts the signal first then feeds it back to the monitors. That's not a bad deal, I found a dual 10" enclosure for $39. Just cut out a hole for the plate amp, install two decent drivers and I'm good to go. That may be the best thing.

It would still be cool to have both you and Mac on my speed dial.

Bob

Ha, Yanks argue about bazookas. Wow. Rocket launchers are next!!!

Every 'clubhouse' in Canada wants 2. Of each. The ones with the concrete walls and security cams.

Bazooka is so '40s.

LAWS Rocket is so '80s...

Smart Bullet.

Yeah.


--Mac

Rail gun, baby! Twenty-two bazillion rounds per minute! Only prob is keeping it loaded.

BTW, I have contacted a guy about his craigslist ad for a Behringer B2092A Truth powered sub. It's more than I want to pay and I have no idea where I'll put it, but it was made specifically for my mains. If I don't get that I'll go the crossover and amp route.

Crap, there's always a catch...

Bob

I've thought about everything everyone has said here. I currently have messages out to two individuals on craigslist, one with the Polk PSW10, the other with the notionally equivalent JBL PSW-110D. The JBL is halfway across the state but Ai Wants Itt. 150W RMS, good to 30 Hz, etc. I'm just not crazy about having to build or modify cables to use it, but hey. I passed on a Behringer B2092A which is purpose-made for the speakers I have. It was just too big and heavy (75 lbs.).

Ryszard - I checked and the Polk speaker outlets are pass-through, not cross-ed over, so it may not be the ideal solution.

Interesting. Thank you.

I can't find the exact topic, but on the subject of subwoofers, I use a system that has what I call just a woofer, with sattelites. The woofer is 10" with a crossover built in, the sattelites only 5" mid-high range. I have 2 sets, one in my bedroom studio, and another for live performance. I play mostly to audiences of 30 or less, but have used this system for over 200 in a gymnasium with no complaints of too loud or I can't hear you. The system is the very old Dawn speaker system using a 8 channel Carvin amp. The satelites have dispersers which send the sound out in a pattern like the Bose, and others, eliminating the need of monitors. The whole system weighs less than 50 lbs. I had to replace all the speakers due to age. Both system I found on EBay for less than $200 and the new speakers ran me about $100 for each system. For what I do, it works perfect for what I do. I also have a larger set using 12" sub with 8" satelites that I rarely use. Dawn is now building a new system using the same technology as the Bose, but are about the same price. The original Dawn's were way ahead of their time, and being built and sold in Kansas, they never caught on much. But they sure work nice.