You’ve gotta wonder just how hard it is to make it in the music business after watching this video.

I made it about 1/2 way through the first video. When they showed the snake around the neck, I quit.

2000 copyright. Country market was still pretty 'clean' 12 years ago. I'm not going to wade into the personal attacks back and forth in the thread, but my guess is that this video was too naughty at the time, and to be honest, her voice has nothing to make her stand out amongst the crowd. Pretty plain honky-tonk party country-rock voice. Do this, turn on the YouTube video, then look away and just listen to the song. IMO - blah. That is likely part of the reason of the non-success. Today's country is full of this kind of stuff. What is it that they say in Texas? "All hat and no cattle" This is kind of a musical equivalent. I'll take Allison Krauss and Union Station any day of the week, or Brad Paisley ripping on the Tele any day but this kind of 'country' is what keeps me away from bothering to listen to country radio. My musical tastes run wide and deep, but most of this kind of stuff is as bothersome to me as any teen pop/dance thing, denigrating rap, etc. Too much great music to listen to before bothering with this stuff. Other examples of someone just doing 'o.k.' and not getting popular simply because it just wasn't worthy of worship: Garth Brooks as Chris whatzhisname?, Shaquille O'Neil as his rap persona, Michael Jordan in the MLB and PGA, etc.

When did Shania Twain come on the scene? I seem to remember there was hub-bub about her showing her midriff in videos and they were much more tame than this, from what I recall. Shania had the nice girl-next-door pretty thing (probably still does), whereas the way that this artist is dressed and the content of the video tried to go somewhere else. I'm not sure 'skank' is the word, but let's just say it's not the 'girl next door' thing! Who knows, she could be pure as the driven snow, but the producers of the video certainly didn't want to portray her that way.

Didn't watch the interview.

From the folks that I know that have been courted by record companies, and one that is insanely successful without a record company deal(Tyler Ward), the promises and the actual delivery of support are far away from each other. Very few get the golden ticket. Without it, back in 2000, it was much harder to gain the notoriety. Today, YouTube itself and the internet can make that situation much different.

I was reminded of this again this past week, as I spent another week in LA-LA-Land, LA and Orange Counties in SOCAL. What my kids know as popular is so much different than when I was a kid, when the media companies outright determined popularity and familiarity to the masses for the most part. Why should I know so many road names in that part of the country, well before I ever stepped foot into the Republic of California for my first time back in the early 2000's? Because I was fed the names of the roads through my favorite TV shows and songs of my youth: Emergency 51, Adam-12, Beach Boys songs, etc. Hollywood on big and small screens, payola based radio play, etc.

Now, put up a goofy video online and if it's funny or talented, there's at least some hope of the viral thing happening. Do both, funny or unique and talented and there's an audience for you.

But for this girl, I think the ho-hum average delivery, and the too hot for 2000 video probably did her in.

Garth Brooks went back to being Garth Brooks, but it wasn't the same....

BTW - this girl just raised a million bucks on Kickstarter.com

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/amandas-million

That's how it's going to go for awhile at least.

That Kickstarter article is very interesting but did you read the blog posts below it? She quote "already had a massive following" before this project and is married to Neil Gaiman a successful author. She talks on her own blog about years of free gigs, sleeping on the floor at friends houses, online networking, "cloud crowds" to build up the fan base prior to using Kickstarter.

Nothing really new here, it's the usual music biz thing with a new twist, that's all. First, marry well or have rich parents. People have been doing free gigs and sleeping in vans on the side of the road since oh, forever and then a very few will make it, the rest hitch hike home broke and disheartened.

I was watching the new Law and Order a few months ago and Jeff Goldblum who is a very good pianist, is the cop tracking down a wannabe musician killer. The scene is in a small underground NY club where the guy is doing a free show and goes over well and gets nice applause. Goldblum walks up to him and says "good job they really liked you." Then he says this:

"Do you really think you're going to make it? Any idea how many people graduate from music schools all over the world each year? About 50,000 and how many make it to the top worldwide each year? Maybe 5 or 10. 50,000 chasing 10 jobs. Watch this."

He then goes up on stage to the keyboard and plays a nice jazzy blues riff, goes into a quick 8 bar solo and then to a nice ending with a big flourish. The crowd gives him the same ovation they gave the kid. Goldblum walks over to him and says "And I'm a cop."

I remember that dialog exactly because it hits me so close to home. Been there.

Unfortunately, and I really hate to say this, that level of musicianship and talent isn't just a dime a dozen it's more like a penny a hundred. Especially here in LA but I suspect it's the same in any big city.

Bob

Quote:

That smells of self righteous right wing bullsh*t.

That's funny. When I see personal attacks I tend to think of kneejerk left wing fertilizer.

What a woild, what a woild.

Quote:

That Kickstarter article is very interesting but did you read the blog posts below it? She quote "already had a massive following" before this project and is married to Neil Gaiman a successful author. She talks on her own blog about years of free gigs, sleeping on the floor at friends houses, online networking, "cloud crowds" to build up the fan base prior to using Kickstarter.

I did read some of them, and yes, to get THAT kind of support, is going to take some connections. But here's the difference, there are no record companies involved making the decision of success A PRIORI. Look at the graph of the support amounts and the distribution across pledge amounts. Over 9000 people pledged 25$. That was a couple hundred thousand of the support and some major change.

That's not rich friends, that's fans - concert attending, CD buying fans. Over 6,000 pledged 5$. That was 35,000$ of the support.

There were about 1600 backers that contributed $125 or more, for another cool $200,000+. Peel those off, they are the rich folks and the connected 'fans'. She still raised $353,884 from people pledging $50 or less.

That doesn't even count what she/band will make on self-publishing all of the media that they will have available from the project.

Crowd sourcing and having a real fan base is here with us now, and learning how to do it will likely be as or more important than knowing how to grease the skids with record companies in the past.

This guy, Tyler Ward, is a personal acquaintance. I won't call him a friend, because we've probably talked with each other less than an hour total, but I was one of the sound engineers at our church where we had Tyler as one of the band members and worship leaders. I am the one who converted Tyler to in-ear monitor use for his band. https://www.youtube.com/user/tylerwardmusic

He has almost 1,000,000 (that's a million) subscribers to his YouTube channel, with almost 300,000,000 (that's 300 million) views of his videos.

Two years ago, zilch. He did almost all of his social media on his own (with assistance from some local folks - but Tyler's a great stage presence, arranger, recordist, mix engineer, etc. - all on his own) Fan support fanned the flame over the past couple years. I think the last time I mentioned him here he had something like 300,000 subscribers. That was probably 6 months ago.

He is making MAJOR revenue now from YouTube advertisements. Major labels have courted him and he has to date turned them all away. Total control of his tour, who is in his band (all fine guys and girls - they all have been part of the worship team at same church), where he tours, what songs he records, what they will sound like, etc. etc. etc.

All done without one finger lifted of help from a record company. Oh boy they want in on the action, but he is trailblazing without them.

Yes, his story is unique, but no more unique than who record companies single out themselves to be popular, as an a priori decision. Then when they aren't, they drop them like a hot potato.

Many of Tyler's cover songs are more popular than the originals - and for the most part, they ARE better. Done in his home studio in suburban Denver.

Along the way he's brought all kinds of YouTube startups from Colorado and elsewhere along with him. None of them are as big as he is, but many are now getting the revenue from YouTube as they themselves are getting their own on-line fan base in the tens and hundreds of thousands.

Check out his videos, you'll see the links to these other artists that he's helped along.

One thing I can say, is that Tyler has real stage mojo. And if it's fake, he's really good at faking it. Watching him on stage just brings a smile. Sometimes it makes the sound engineer's job hard! I don't know of anyone that I know personally who seems to enjoy his/her job of bringing music to a crowd than Tyler. I think it's part of the success equation for him.

-Scott

An Irish cowboy enters stage left, taps mic then says: "Hey, Dude, zisthingon?"

Frankly, the song AND performance were ho hum. Something that I would never buy. That's the bottom line.

I have to agree after watching both vids....average IMHO....

Skank? I see worse in the adds forced on me by yahoo!

PRearden,

I apologize for jumping your case last night. I reacted to you saying this about the girl in the video:

Quote:

Seemed she was trying to hard to be a hard country.., um.. skank.

Two wrongs don’t make a right. I’m sorry for my part in that.

FWIW, the vid is far less "racy" than a lot of commercials and TV shows we see on primetime.

One of the things I really like about the song is that I can envision great improvisational possibilities for acoustic guitar, electric guitar and mandolin in the song over the groove and chord changes.

I can see adding at least a minute to the song to allow for instrumental breaks. I still don’t think that Lisa Angelle is getting her due for her vocal chops, … but that’s JMHO and we’ve all got those.

Take care.

Bob,

I've watched the Law & Order Criminal Intent episode you mentioned a couple of times and was surprised at Jeff Goldblum's chops on the piano.

They also work him playing piano into another episode about ballet dancers.

I don't know if the statistics cited on the show are spot on, ... but they sound accurate, or at least reasonable.

Yeah, Hugh Lauri of House is another one. His character has a grand in his living room and he plays it fairly often. Solid player. Around here it seems like everybody's a player. A very good player.

And Scott, I'm not saying having the ability to control your own destiny using the internet isn't cool. All I'm saying is this new stuff doesn't make it any easier to make it in the biz. The odds are much worse now than they were 30 years ago imho, and we all know how easy it was then. Once you've created a large following then these websites like Kickstarter are great. I'm not discounting that but getting over that first hump is just as hard as it's ever been if not worse.

Tyler is very good, starting in a large church is a time honored traditional way to break into the music biz. Look at all the motown folks who grew up playing gospel in the church. Churches have been hotbeds of networking for centuries. I'm not a churchgoer and I've been told my whole life I should do that but I have too much respect for those folks and to go in there under false pretenses just to network doesn't sit well with me even though people have been using churches for that purpose for a very long time.

Bob

To clarify a couple points: our church was not 'large'. We averaged 250-300 over 2 services.

Regarding 'making it' it is actually just different, not better or worse than 30 years ago. You don't have to have a big following to successfully use kickstarter. Most don't. Most projects are very small. You match your projects to your size with some stretch. Your highlighted text has it all wrong. Getting over the first hump is different, and I would say it's way more accessible than in the past. What has changed is venue based versus home based. Venue based is harder, home based is way easier. Want to get 1000 CDs pressed but don't have the $2000 to get it done decent at Discmakers? Well, if you really NEED 1000 CDs, you should have a mailing list going already and should be able to get 150 or so folks to pledge you $15 and you end up giving them a CD after it's done at Discmakers. That's the kind of projects that are mostly done at Kickstarters. Sell the other 850 CDs for 10$ and you have $850 to go towards your next project. That's how most people are using these type of sites. (there are a few others, but Kickstarter is the one I have supported folks on.)

Tyler didn't 'start' in our church to make it in the music biz. He didn't use our church, as far as I can tell. His outside of church following in the local area was well along the way before our church as he played in a local band. In fact, our church really had not contributed at all to the firestorm success - it was never even discussed publicly. He only led worship a couple of times. Most of the time he was a supporting guitarist.

Anyways, I think we disagree. I just happen to know many folks that are successful using kickstarter and the like to do a reasonable amount of income without having to involve or worry about record companies or agents or the like. They are in control of their own destinies and sharing their art. I consider that 'making it'.

Hey Scott, just thought I would come back to post this link:

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/09/the-kickstart-singer-who-wont-pay-her-musicians.html

This is our friend Amanda Palmer the Kickstarter millionaire we talked about above. Now she wants musicians to play for free. There's a big discussion about this over on the Keyboard Corner forum.

This reminds me of an old story when I was in a show band at the Holiday Inn Waikiki in the 70's. Don Ho was the big deal then and he moved from his long time gig at the Outrigger to the new Hilton with about a 3 time increase in salary. The Iliki family who had backed him up for over 20 years asked for a small raise and he refused so they quit. It took Mr. Ho like hours to replace all of them for the same money. Lots of loyalty there.

Bob

Yeah she seems like a real class act. (dripping with sarcasm emoticon needed here)

regarding Amanda Palmer:
I just got back from reading all the threads about her decision not to pay her band. I could even ALMOST buy her reasoning if only she hadn't been a militant OCCUPY supporter.
If the same logic she applies to herself were applied to the 1% she despises, she would have to say that it's up to the individual to make their own choices about how they earn their living. Then she would have to acknowledge that she is disingenuous on one front or the other.

regarding Lisa Angelle:
If she were in my band, I probably wouldn't kick her out

Just sayin'

I can't help but wonder how her supporters who all contributed to the "One F******g Million" dollars feel after giving her all that money, then seeing her flash her boobs with a gloating body paint message and then hearing that she expects her musicians to play for free! Hmmmmm.....

I vote for the capitalist approach. Record a CD, pay your musicians, offer it for sale and hope that people buy it.

Don't beg for money, gloat that people gave it and then screw over the musicians who make it possible.

As Scott said, ... she's a real class act!

Pat,

It’s interesting that you mentioned that she is an OCCUPY protester who hates the 1%.

I wonder how she would react if a major record company approached her and said “We can make you PART of that 1%!, …?”

There’s no doubt in my mind that she would jump on that bandwagon and become what is known as a hypocrite, … and then immediately start shunning the OCCUPY protesters outside the arena where she was performing! LOL.

I briefly looked her up and man, what a fox. She grew up in the business, her father is/was a producer, it sounds like the whole family is well connected, she's written a lot of stuff that's been produced and it just shows how hard it is to make it even with everything she has going for her. Trust me though, somebody like that has no problem marrying very well, I'm sure she's fine even if she's not an individual star.

Bob

Amanda is definitely a strange contradiction walking. I have loved the work of her husband for years, but I don't like her stuff -- or her way of promoting herself -- much at all.

I find no contradiction in her being an Occupy supporter... but I've got a huge problem with someone at her level trying to get musicians to work for free for her.

Shrug.

I regret making the reference to the kickstarter millionaire.

Here are examples of projects that I've actually helped fund with donations:

1. Pikes Peak Guy's coffee table book - I pledged and paid $75 to help this guy get his coffee table book published. His initial attempt failed. With a little social media help, he reached his goal. Now he is on I believe his 3rd printing and selling through local bookstores, Amazon, etc. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/thepikespeakguy/365-days-of-pikes-peak-the-journey-0?ref=live note that if you search 'Pikes peak guy' on kickstarter, you'll see his failed first attempt.

2. Amy Winkles' album. They are in mastering right now. I forget what I pledged - I think it was $25. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amywinkles/amy-winkles-new-album-in-2012?ref=live

In both cases, these very different artists, one a photographer, one a firebrand rock/worship singer/leader, had financial goals in their artistic endeavors that were out of their personal reach financially - but were needed to get to the 'next level' of getting their art into the public's hands. They had a quite small, but established fan-base (of which I am a fan of both) that were willing to forward them a fairly small bit of cash, for a valuable product in return - should enough people join the pledge.

I have a great, signed, sleeved hardcopy of the Pikes Peak Guy's 365 days of Pikes Peak proudly on display on my coffee table - and it's glorious. It retails for $99 on Amazon for an unsleeved version. More importantly, it is sold at all of the major gift shops in Colorado Springs - the most appropriate place for them to be printed. It is a very high quality book - that was one of the artist's requirements - he went into some detail about how he selected the printer and his criteria for selection. He involved us backers in his process - which is worth some of the backing fee, IMO.

I will be getting a signed copy of Amy's CD. If it's anything as good as hearing her live, my money will be well spent. Amy's vocals remind me of the best of Pat Benatar and Melissa Etheridge combined into one. I wish there was a popular female rock singer right now, but there isn't. So, I bought into Amy's project knowing that at least the folks involved in her project will likely do right by her voice. On stage energy; hard to capture in a CD; but I was willing to take the risk that they'll get some of it done.

Perhaps more valuable to me in both of these endeavors is that I played a small part in allowing these two artists to pursue their dreams. Paying it forward, shall we say. I know one thing that the coffee table project allowed was to allow the artist to 'stair-step' their investment, for wider exposure, with very little out of pocket expenses except in the original creation of the photographs.

I think they are 'making it', using their own terms, and at their own pace - without any outside influence of publishers or corporations. This is what I mean when the world is a better place for this now, than it was even 20 years ago.

-Scott

Quote:

I'm not a churchgoer and I've been told my whole life I should do that but I have too much respect for those folks and to go in there under false pretenses just to network doesn't sit well with me even though people have been using churches for that purpose for a very long time.

This comment shows a lever of integrity & class that so many so called "Christians" don't even come close to approaching.....

That is very nice Scott and I really respect you for your efforts. I'm not poo pooing these things at all, just making some observations. Obviously there's some very cool things happening with social media to get these artists off the ground. I think it's great.

Part of my cynicism is I live in LA. Here everybody's dog has social media up the ***. One time years ago the band leader brought in a sax player named Andy Suzuki. An absolute monster who tours with David Benoit. He took our little gig to warm up for a Hollywood Bowl gig in 3 days. After the gig he asked me for my contact info. I was kind of flattered but also puzzled. I know where I rank and I'm pretty decent but my god, he plays with Benoit and other top players in LA, he doesn't need me. Well, guess what I'm now on his emailing list for his upcoming gigs and album releases. It's been about 5-6 years.

There's a very good singer I know who sends out emails and tweets to about 100 people when he has a gig and he's told me he's lucky if 3 show up. People are just flooded with this stuff and I've posted about how tough it is here, I've got so many stories I could write my own book. It seems to work out in Colorado though.

Anyway, it's really great to hear your success stories unlike my tales of woe from the LA chapter of Heartbreak Anonymous.

Bob

@jazzmammal - they don't call it LA-LA-land for nothing, do they?

wow. what a thread!

going back to the original intent of the OP:

she has a fantastic voice and yes, she is sexy. but the song, IMO, was not great. the hook "Kiss This" was 11 measures after the chorus started (and was the last part of the chorus). you can't expect listeners to hold interest that long. for country/pop whatever genre top 40 you HAVE to get the hook in the listener's mind and making them wait to the end of the chorus won't do that for most people.

I loved the beat of the song, really great premise, too. but it's not "memorable."

I disagree with the video being too sexy for 2000. the video itself is not nearly as "sexy" as many others I've seen long before 2000. It actually wasn't bad at all.

If she had been gyrating on the bed with a guy (or another girl!) or salsa dancing or if she were even dressed seductively I'd say differently - but the most skin you see of her is the midriff and even that's tasteful.

to me, what turns me off about this video is the song itself. it's boring IMO.

Keep in mind I nevr said the song or video was too sexy. of course the were more provocative videos in 2000. I said she was TRYING TOO HARD to be a country skank. Rooling around in the mud with a blow up alligator, snakes around neck, photo shoots, lingerie on the bed. it all seemed disingenuous.

My reaction to the video was, "Oh, pleeese"

The song, it was just plain boring. moo

The video was FAR too long IMHO. I was bored by about 90 seconds. Yes, nice voice and set of lungs but so what. As to the video, just about anybody could hype themselves up to that extent. If its TRUE, then why didn't her 'Daddy' put her into the right management?