Hi all,

For years, I've not played in a rock band (even though it's my favorite music) because of the loud volumes rock musicians like to and need to play.

Just wondering - especially since slivertone's last post, if any of you PGMusic friends have a similar issue, and if you've found ear protection that leaves your ears feeling comfortable after a loud gig.

How loud ? I'm sure most of you don't carry dB meters around in your pocket (except maybe Mac : ) though I've heard that there may be some apps that allow your phone to take a reading - not sure how accurate they would be, I'm guessing not very accurate.

Local gunshop/shooting supplies/sporting goods shops should have wide array of hearing protection items, joe, I always have a pair of Sonic Valves with me, hanging on my keychain in their little handy vial. I use 'em for a lot more'n just music performances. Anywhere things may seem detrimental to my hearing, hammering, nail guns, anything.

The valve technology allows hearing via little holes in them, but will close automatically whenever the SPL exceeds a predetermined threshold.


--Mac

I used a set like Mac mentions for many years--basically until I lost them. They were made by Norton, an industrial safety equipment company. The point is to restrict impulse noise, although a steady diet of high volume doesn't do you any good either.

Nowadays I use a pair that I got many years ago at Sears for a couple of bucks for use in an industrial environment. I still use them when playing loud. They look like simple earplugs connected by a plastic lanyard. I can't explain how I can hear ordinary conversation through them, yet they block damaging intensities. They provide about -21 dB of noise reduction.

Guitar centers carry a full line of this stuff, as does musician's friend and sweetwater. i just bought a pair not long ago for around $20 especially made for music

The company I work for has made custom earplugs for musicians for a couple of decades. If you are interested, PM me so that this doesn't turn into a big commercial. As for the Sonic Valves, we used to make custom hearing protection with those, until the last few available lots of filters did not meet our incoming inspection methods. There's a big difference between filters designed for music use versus impulsive noise. If you are interested, I just had an article published on impulsive noise attenuation qualification in Industrial Safety and Health News. Link here: http://www.ishn.com/articles/97659-high-level-impulse-sounds?v=preview ISHN requires you to sign up with them to read the full article.

As for phone based apps - the better iPhone apps seem to do o.k. when the noise situation is dominated by mid frequencies. When there's a good deal of low frequency content in the noise, they become quite inaccurate (by 5-10 dB), as well as many of them do not report whether they are using any weighting or not (A, C, etc.) which can have a huge impact on the overall value reported. Quite inexpensive SPL meters are available these days with microphones that will pick up the low frequency content with better accuracy than the iPhone mic. Or, you can get a calibrated test mic from Studio6 Digital: http://www.audiocontrol.com/t37/62295/746706/iOS-Direct/iOS-Test-and-Measurement-Microphone.html only $200!

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12680845


50 bucks.

BTW - my post about the iTest mic was a joke - no reason to go spend that.

I use Hero's I got at Sam Ash for 6 or 8 bucks. I asked a young kid at the guitar counter what he uses and he said those. First I was impressed he uses anything but in talking to him he's well aware of the hearing risk so I guess the word is out. They work well, I used them for a very loud classic rock NYE bar gig.

Bob

Etymotic musician's ear filters from Westone.

They come in 9, 15 and 25 db strengths, and have an almost flat frequency response, so they just turn the volume down, instead of making everything muddy.

For the best fit, you can get a mold made at an audiologist office and have Westone make a pair that fits in your ears perfectly. If you are going to use them often, this is what I recommend.

http://www.westoneaudio.com/index.php/pr...protection.html

If not, there are universal fit, much less expensive solutions

http://www.westoneaudio.com/index.php/products/hearing-protection/universal-hearing-protection.html

They sound much better than the foam plugs or those trapshooting devices because they are high fidelity.

I used the other kinds in the 70s and 80s, discovered Westone in the 90s and the difference is huge.



I keep 2 custom pairs in my gig bag, and universals in my car (just in case I need to go into someplace loud).

Notes

Hey Joe,

I still keep my ETYMOTIC RESEARCH plugs (not custom but I like them and they work) in their little plastic holder on my keychain. I got them from www.etymotic.com a few years ago when I was singing with a very LOUD band and my ears couldn't take it. These toned it down enough without making things too muffled. Also they were pretty comfortable inside my ears. I even bought my husband a pair.

Josie

The very best ear protection is free, ..... it's called the volume knob!

I like the way this old dude thinks . . . ducking and running!

Later,

Runnin won't help ya gotta sleep sometimes, and I gotta whole set of sharpie markers!

Can you say clown face! Sure I Knew ya could.

This is true, when you have control over it.

Movie theaters, aerobics studios in "health clubs", night clubs, concerts, sporting events, and other places where you aren't in control of the volume knob are where you need your ear filters - they become your personal volume knob. Even my relatives run their TVs higher than 85.

I put health clubs in quotes, because any place that runs the volume loud enough to inflict permanent ear damage on its customers, are not concerned about their health.

We gig for an adult audience, and try to keep the volume at 85db ("A" weighted, slow response) as that is the highest safe listening level. We use a sound level meter during the volume check. Sometimes that means that the volume level on stage needs to be 90db - so in go the ear filters.

In additon: sometimes the venue wants more than 85db of volume. Sometimes it's a long room and in order for the people in the back to hear, the volume on stage needs to be higher than 85. The ear filters are my personal volume knob. When gigging for someone else, they have virtual control over the volume knob. They hire me to do a job for them.

When I'm at home, nothing is played over 85db - I own the volume knob. And the etymotic ear filters are the best I've tried.

A word of warning for the kind of plugs they use in gun ranges. Some of them work with a piston. Any sudden loud noise (pressure wave) will close the piston and protect the ears. But a gradual or extended loud sound does practically nothing as the piston is designed to only close when a sharp pressure wave closes it, and then is designed to open again so people can hear normally.

Insights and incites by Notes

As far as I know, the North Safety Valve - which did have a mechanical operation with a small diaphragm closing off air passage, is no longer available anywhere. That is the only product that I am aware of which had a mechanical operation.

All of the other products that make claims about level selective or non-linear attenuation, are using some form of acoustic impedance change that is related to the overall SPL. Most of these function with small-orifice acoustic physics. This is similar to how a fluid-filled automobile shock absorber works. The acoustic particle velocity increases with increasing SPL. This velocity increase makes it more difficult for air molecules to travel back and forth through the small orifice, increasing the impedance of the orifice. Just like with an old oil-filled shock absorber, moving the ends of the shock absorber slowly allows one to compress it or expand it with typical arm strength, but attempt to move the ends together or apart quickly and all of a sudden it feels like it's a solid, unmovable cylinder.

Also, most of the non-linear attenuating devices do not have a very flat attenuation curve.

-Scott

I tried a pair once (I think Behr/Norton) in the 1970s that had a piston. I was in a very loud rock and roll band at the time. They didn't work well so I went back to what I was using before - if my memory serves me well it was foam.

Ever since I found the etymotics, I haven't had a need to look for anything else.

Insights and incites by Notes

I used to use the ear plugs that had the little capsules in them that shut down on loud levels.... they worked but were very uncomfortable over longer wear times. I think they are still in my guitar case.

I tend to use the foam "el-cheapo" plugs because they are comfortable to wear for hours at a time.... shooting guns, mowing the grass, etc... and they reduce the SPL quite nicely.

I also have a nice set of electronic headphones for shooting and hunting. Comfortable, easy to put on in a flash and remove as well.... they only block the stuff above their preset 85db (?) level, so normal speech gets through and you can even turn that up a bit.

I have also used my high quality sound reducing ear buds as ear plugs a time or two.... just pop them in and leave the music off. I used that the other day for blocking the sound of a circular saw in a small kitchen where I was cutting the floor out. Worked pretty nicely as they reduce the levels and are comfortable to wear.

I have a set of the foam plugs in my shooting bag and in my pockets at most times just in case.

I'd like to thank all of you for your informative responses. I actually have used the hearos - but I feel like it takes too much of the highs out, and I have a pair of Etymotics, but they don't sit in my ears well. I'm going to try a few of the other suggestions, possibly have a pair custom made, and buy a db meter. Anyone recommended a particular db meter ? It can also be used to give precise information where the guy above my mom's apartment decides to play his stereo too loud, play the drums, or throw a party to "disturb the peace". On that note - anyone have any interesting stories about "disturbing the peace" - I'm not sure that's even the right term for making too much noise. How about some good stories on the 'citizen's arrest' ? I'm sure any story about a citizen's arrest is an interesting one.

The SPL meter (please, stop using the term, "dB" without a reference...) available from Radio Shack will do the trick and not break the bank.


--Mac

Joe, if you are talking about the Etymotic 20 generic fit earplugs, they don't fit most people's ears very well. The solid shaft is straight, and most ear canals take a pretty sharp bend right where the plug should seal. If you push it in deeply enough to seal sell, it will result in pain in the tragus (that cartilage piece that sits at the front opening of the ear). I can wear them about 5 minutes, and that's it for me.

Two .380ACP or .38 Special Round Nose Lead, one in each ear...

The custom fit ear molds are worth the price if you are going to use them a lot. You can also get 9, 15, and 25db filters and change them to fit your needs.

They are shaped to your individual ear canal and once in are very comfortable. And they actually work better than the 'one size fits all' variety. IMHO well worth the money.

You can contact Westone and get a list of approved audiologists.

The Radio Shack SPL meter works fine. We've compared it to the Police Department's expensive meter and they were within a db or two of each other.

My 'disturbing the peace story' comes from that opportunity to compare meters.

We were gigging at an almost outdoor lounge (large open air but a good roof over our head). The noise ordinance is 55dba at the neighbor's lot line. We measured our volume at the line, and when the people next door called the police, they always found us complying with the law.

Insights and incites by Notes

wow... that is really, really quiet. Normal conversation at 3' distance is louder than that averaging 60db to 65db.

db CHART

We played a club in a town with a noise ordnance... several actually, so we used our SPL meter often. One club had a 90 db outside the front door with the door closed. Cops walked around with meters. $50 fine per instance.

Another club had an 85db limit at the bar. The first 2 warnings were free, the third and subsequent warnings were accompanied by a $25 fine by the bar. The town fines were much higher so the club put the responsibility on the bands to self enforce.

55 at the neighbor's lot line, it was about 85 in the bar.

We do play a yacht club where we do a sound check at 65db, any louder than that will cause complaints. People want to talk while having dinner. Surprisingly, they do get up to dance, even to the rock songs that we play after dinner.

Notes

"dB" cited without reference is useless as information. "45dB" over WHAT? Background noise? Sound is additive in nature, among other issues.

A Weighting is not the necessary reference, that refers to the use of the Fletcher-Munson EQ being applied such that the reading will show what the human ear translates the "flat" level into.


The proper way to define the level of the sound is to use SPL - Sound Pressure Level figures.


--Mac

I would normally would chime right in with Mac on a discussion about dB requiring a reference value or at minimum SPL, all of the above discussions get a 'pass' from me because they are talking about using SPL meters, which all use 20 micropascals as their reference. There's no way to actually change it on the meters themselves.

It is certainly better form to say 85 dBA SPL than just 85 dBA.

And it has migrated from dB(A) to dBA over the years. Saves some keystrokes is one way to try to look at that positively.

In all my decades of reporting out sound pressure related dB on charts, this would be my standard axis label:

dB(weighting) SPL re 20-6 Pa.

But in a general discussion about output from SPL meters, it's probably o.k. not to put so much detail since there's only 'one kind' of reference in most SPL meters available. Some two channel units can do sound intensity which has a 10-12 Watt reference, if I recall correctly. But by and large the lions share of what are sold as SPL meters use 20 micropascal sound pressure reference.