I have been wanting to create a lead guitar part using midi and the piano roll on Band in a Box. How can I create a hammer on and pull off sound, and also a slide from one note to another, that sounds realistic? I want to insert the chords and then insert the lead guitar part using midi notes. I can enter notes easily but do not know how to create the above mentioned licks on midi. I have heard some of you guys do amazing things with midi, help appreciated!

As far as geekery in GM, you kinda need to think like a Martian. First, there are some sounds that few people know about--like fret noise--which can add realism to otherwise static sounds. Be sure to look through the entire 128-voice sound set to see what is available. You probably know this, but, unless you render the sound to audio, the results are going to vary for each person, depending on their GM sound set.

Another GM approach is to use sounds other than what you would expect in certain cases. For instance, for the hammer-on I would use the picked electric bass sound in the appropriate octave for guitar. I recommended experimentation for the pull-off, but it would be different than the hammer. Try upright bass and fingered bass.

I once heard a very convincing simulation of Beatle Paul's Hofner bass which consisted of 60% upright bass and 40% acoustic guitar in the same octave as the bass, which gave it both depth and that round-wound sound. I just mention it as an example of thinking outside of the box.

Best I've been able to do for a single-note slide was to draw in a pitch curve when I was creating a fretless bass sound. (I did it both with an original piece, and with a transcription of Jaco's rendition of "Donna Lee," which nearly brought me to tears of frustration). It sort of works, depending on the resolution of your mouse and how steady your hand is. You need a MIDI editor in which you can do that--not sure if you can in BIAB/RB. IIRC, I was using Cubase LE at the time. Chords are another matter; I think that would be very difficult to simulate, but hey. You may surprise yourself and us.

Hope this gives you a starting point.

Richard

Step-entry for the thing is a very trying way to try to go about it, and even after long hours of work cannot duplicate what can be done using a MIDI keyboard controller with Pitchbend Wheel, Expression Pedal and simply Recording the part as MIDI in realtime.

Even then, it is sometimes a good thing to go back and overdub the Pitchbends at differing parts after resetting the Pitchbend parameter, such that instead of full travel = +/- 2 half steps, the typical default, changing that to a different value in order to have longer or shorter slides can help.

As for Hammer-Ons and Pulloffs, the real problem there has more to do with the MIDI synth patch in use, while some are a bit better than others due to having more Velocity layers to choose from, there are likely to still be problems with the Attack of each note in the given Patch, which if a Picked or Plucked guitar example, often don't have any samples without at least a small amplitude pickmark in them.

MIDI "Jazz Guitar" patches may work better for this purpose, especially when followed by guitar effects and/or amp simulation plugins to alter the "original" sound of that patch.

That said, I'm also of the mindset that certain instruments just should not be attempted using MIDI if your target is a finished recording and this particular instrument choice is one of those.

That, or shell out the amount of money it takes to get your hands on the new Yamaha Tyros 5 and record its fantastically realistic modeled sounds as Audio to DAW...


--Mac

I’m in the same camp as Mac in that getting a realistic guitar sound is not easy. In fact it is impossible if using a GM sound set.

As Mac said if you want a realistic sounding MIDI guitar it is going to cost you money. On the software side there are a number of excellent sounding third party guitar patches for Kontakt. These will have guitar articulations assigned to keyswitches. For example press C1 while playing C5 to D6 for a hammer on, press C#1 while playing C5 to D6 for a slide etc. Then add some guitar effects to mask the MIDI like reverb, echo and chorus.

But your best approach IMHO is to get a guitarist to play the part. That way you will be guarantied to get a realistic sound.

REALTRACKS.

While not being able to provide us with the ability to play our own designated riffs and melodies, I have found that using a more realistic MIDI patch to play the designated part and adding in a Realtrack Dobro, Slide Electric or Steel yields the "aura" of the realistic slide guits in there.


--Mac

I too find step entry a very difficult way to make most things sound realistic.

For slides, hammer ons and pull offs, I do two things depending on the synthesizer I'm using.

If the synth has a good legato mode, just playing the notes for hammer on and pull off will work. But again, that depends on the synth. If not, good, quick use of the pitch bend control works wonders.

For slides, if emulating a glass or brass slide, I'll always use pitch bend. Depending on how much I want to slide, I might use the Continuous Controllers to control the pitch bend range so I can slide more than a couple of half steps.

Using the CCs can also help with hammer ons and pull offs. If you set your pitch bend range to a half step, you can rapidly move the joystick or pitch bend wheel to the max to get a quicker transition between pitches, making the hammer on more realistic.

One more thing, if you export your MIDI and import it into a sequencer, you can just play the first note and then insert the pitch bend at the right time. I've had very good results with this, but it takes a bit of trial and error to get this right.

A complete list of continuous controllers and their functions can be found here: http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.html

Insights and incites by Notes

Pitchbends on a MIDI keyboard?

The Master:

Imustbenuts, If you send me a link of what you are looking for I'll play the part for you. We can collab and both knock off one of our 14.

Ray was one of the all time greats. When I was a kid I had almost all his stuff on the ABC Paramont label. I've seen him live a couple of times and he did great shows. The world is better for the fact that he passed this way.

I read that Edgar Winter fooled Rolling Stone magazine with his synth solo in Frankenstein. Rolling Stone awarded it one of the 100 top rock guitar solos. I didn't read the Rolling Stone article, so that could be urban legend.

And my own contribution (although it's done with a MIDI wind controller instead of a keyboard):

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_oldtimeguitar.mp3

It was recorded live on a gig on an old pre-iPod Archos Juke Box's internal mic so the fidelity isn't the best. The background is BiaB using one of my styles with synth horn lines added near the end of the clip.

The MIDI controller is a Yamaha WX5 and the synth is a Yamaha VL70m using the Guitar Hero patch (tweaked by me). I mapped the pitch bend to the reed and used the reed as I would a joystick or wheel on a keyboard synth for both string bend and whammy bar effects. And if you listen, you can even hear where my thumb slipped off the octave key button and then recovered. I am proud to make mistakes on every gig, and equally as proud to cover them up so that most people don't hear them but me.

I posted this one in a guitar forum, not telling them I did this on a synth. I got plenty of great compliments, nobody said it sounded like a synth, one person even said it sounded Jeff-Beck-Ish (to me a high praise). After dozens of supportive comments, I came clean, told them I did it on a synth and got even more great comments. Only then did one person come up and say he though something sounded a little funny but he couldn't tell what. Fooling guitarists on a guitar patch is the ultimate test that it can be done.

This next one was done on a friend's CD. My friend is an excellent guitarist, but he wanted guitar synth on this cut and asked me if I would play it. It's a first and only take. I wanted it to sound guitar-ish but since he asked for synth guitar I wanted it to sound a bit "synthy" too. Again using the WX5 and VL70m combo but with an aftermarket Les Paul patch that I tweaked a bit.

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_personalchoice.mp3

That's me playing synth guitar (for better or worse).

Insights and incites by Notes

I would have a hard time finding it, but there was about 6mo-1 year ago a killer set of both acoustic as well as electric guitar VSTi that used samples as well as physical modeling if I recall correctly. They sounded outstanding, complete with hammer ons and pull-offs if I recall correctly. I think I posted a link to them here at PG forums.

I couldn't find the thread, but I did find the plugin series - from amplesound.net

Watch the videos. Be amazed. In my opinion, these are the absolute best resources for both acoustic and electric guitar soft-instruments for midi response on the market.

http://www.amplesound.net/en/pro-pd.asp?id=3

Make sure to watch the one called 'slidesmoother' you'll see what I mean.

But then again, I would be willing to do a collab with you for FAWM if your immediate need is one of your 14 songs. I'm scottlake at FAWM.

-Scott

Thanks everyone for lending your expertise! I will put some of the tips to use after FAWM is over, as I know it is a time consuming task to write parts and then make them sound human. Per the suggestions I will hook up my midi keyboard and try to produce some of these. Thanks to all, as always the guys and gals of PG forum are always so willing and knowledgeable to help!

While it is definitely time consuming, it gets quicker with time as your skill level increases.

Good luck.

And remember, they call it PLAYing music for a reason

Insights and incites by Notes

One thing I have noticed with the specialty VST's. Especially the guitars and the steel guitars with names such as "real strat" and others.

There is a huge learning curve and keyboard skills are mandatory. If you're not already halfway proficient on the keys, you will likely have problems replicating the realistic sounds and articulations needed to convince most people that they are hearing a real guitarist. Two handed playing and manipulating of the pitch wheel are required.

I picked up a steel guitar VST demo many years back during my search for a reasonable steel guitar sounding synth. I got it working just fine as far as getting sound from it. I believe it was a NI Kontakt compatible 3rd party VST. The bending of the strings and making it sound real.... like there was someone playing who actually knew what they were doing..... yeah, not so much.

Then I found BB/RB and ..... problem solved.

The Yamaha Keyboards like PSR750 thru Tyros have them built in already. The problem lies with GM being able to "read" the XG data.

However, the latest keyboards can also save in wave format right from the keyboard itself.

You may want to contact "Seeker" on here (Frank). He has a PSR and is also connected to the best PSR Forum on the net. Maybe they can record the slides and thumps you need? It is very simple to do on one of those keyboards and they sound as realistic as a real guitar.

Trax

As great as Mr. Charles was this tune really kicks in when the drummer comes in with that back beat on the tom, IMHO.

This is truly a great raw performance. I forgot about this one thanks for posting Mac.

PS: Robert I did not comment on your question as I feel there is "no way" to get a "realistic" guitar sound from a midi. Again just my opinion.

Later,

Another master at pitch bends on keys is Chick Corea. However, neither Chick nor in my opinion Ray Charles are demonstrating 'realistic midi guitar slides', great pitch bending notwithstanding.

If you take a look/listen to the link I posted from Amplesound - there is at least one example of a multi-fret slide where the note instantiations happening due to the sliding across frets that happens in a real guitar, is happening. IMO, there's a big difference between pitch bending and guitar neck slide simulation.

This is a demo of a midi guitar 'slide': https://soundcloud.com/ample-sound/3-2-5-slidesmoother

here's another: https://soundcloud.com/ample-sound/3-2-4-sio

Again, these are MIDI examples using Amplesound's VSTi engine. In my opinion, this is the most clear demonstration of MIDI guitar slides that sound realistic.

For that matter, I believe that this company has the most realistic acoustic and electric guitar MIDI sample/VSTi available, by quite a long shot compared to anything else. The articulations that they have available, including these slides, are quite amazing in my opinion.

I've always been of the mindset that to get realistic guitar via MIDI, it had to be done with a real player or loops like realtracks. However, watching/listening to the demos from Amplesound has decreased my strength of opinion in that regard. These are dang close and in some respects better than what you can get out of some local hired-in guitar players - but you had better be really good with your keyboard playing/nuancing with whatever tools Amplesound provides to add in the realism.

Here's some electric guitar slides that IMO are pretty danged spot-on: https://soundcloud.com/ample-sound/agg-80s-solo

here's some great jazz guitar bends using one of their electric guitar bends - ala Doc Powell and others:
https://soundcloud.com/ample-sound/agp-scotts-smooth-jazz-demo

No affiliation with this company, but I was just wowed by their midi guitar stuff - slides included. I've heard some pretty convincing bend simulations before, but not slides like this.

-Scott

Thanks everyone, Rockstar you are right those sound pretty amazing to be midi, thanks for sharing!

some synths have special guitar patches that articulate differently according to velocity (like a hammer on if velocity is higher than some threshold)

I've also seen upper bank patches on some synths that do nothing BUT the crazy little sounds you just can't get from a GM guitar patch

If you have a hardware synth, explore the upper banks... you'll probably find some interesting solutions. Older Roland modules have a lot of these patches.

But, it still takes a lot of patience to build a convincing guitar part that way...

(gotta love those Real Tracks!)

I have heard precisely two keyboard players who could emulate a natural-sounding lead guitar. (I should probably get out more.) However, these were single-note lines with a distorted sound. I never heard an attempt at chords or multistring slides.

Propellerhead Reason, a combination soft synth and DAW, has what they call Refills (sound libraries by PH and third parties) with some absolutely amazing Strat and other guitar sounds. But you have to own Reason (~$450 USD) and the appropriate Refills and be able to do those keyboard gestures in order to make it work.

Any way you go at it there's a price to pay.

The new Yamaha Tyros 5 is perhaps the most realistic guitar emulating keyboard yet. The Flamenco Guitar in there is also impressively realistic, use of sampling plus modeling as well as Audio samples of even things like a guitarist's vocalizations and grunts, etc. as well as intelligent and thus automatic string bends, slides, etc.

Here is a demo of Tyros 5 emulating The Shadows' guitar stylings.

Look Ma, no Modwheel!

Close your eyes when you listen...




Of course, adding Modwheel to it can also be done:




I think the most difficult part of the equation for today's MIDI keyboardist is keeping up with the cost of replacing the keyboards, which is now at least an annual event for those wishing - or needing - to stay on top of the curve.

The upside to that is the fact that pretty soon enough this kind of sound will likely become the defacto standard and simply expected from all MIDI keyboards in future.

Sheer proliferation will also likely mean that these sounds will lose respect and popularity, too.

I'll keep my intentionally high-action 80's JapStrat with the switchable single and double coil pups in it, Coricidin bottle and Zippo lighter handy, though.


--Mac

Those Tyros demos are impressive.

Probably time to define what's being discussed and specifically for pgfantastic's needs.

I'll suggest the following, not definitive, but just to delineate all the different nuances that can be done on guitar. Feel free to pitch in with more appropriate terminology - I'm kind of thinking of these off the top of my head, some are arguably vague or made-up on the spot!:

Fret Bends: when the string is pressed down on a fret and pushed across the fretboard for the purpose of raising the pitch of the note.

Bridge Bends: When the bridge has intentional capability of slackening or tightening of the strings for purpose of raising/lowering pitch. Extreme action in lowering known as dive-bombing.

Fret Slide: When a finger that is fretting a string is kept held down on the string and then slid higher or lower on the fretboard for the purpose of a chromatic pitch change to the string up or down. That's what is in the Amplesound demo I posted a few posts back.

Portamento slide: When an un-fretted string is length limited by a 'slide' mechanism for a portamento, non-chromatic pitch raise/lower. Common to pedal steel, lap steel, dobro, hawaiian guitar styles.

Hammer-on: Instead of picking a note either with finger pad/nail or pick, the note instantiation is done by 'hammering' a fretting hand finger onto the string and holding it down at a particular fret.

Pull-off: Opposite of Hammer-on, where the currently fretted string is somewhat plucked by the fretting finger as the fretted pressure on the string is released.

Palm muting: Intentional muting of the string vibration with the heel of the palm of the picking hand.

Double-stops: Picking two strings with the purpose of a harmonized melody. See "Brian May", "Stevie Ray Vaughan", "Chuck Berry" for reference recordings

Pinch harmonics: Purposefully limiting the modal string vibration to only a few of the string vibration modes by performing a type of muting instead with the fleshy portion of the thumb of the picking hand. Reference: ZZ Top "La Grange". Some players will also use the heel of the picking hand instead of or in addition to the fleshy portion of the thumb in order to access various vibration node points more quickly with the fretting hand.

Vibrato: On fretted instruments, this typically can only raise the pitch above fretted pitch, unlike fretless instruments where the pitch can vary around the center pitch. Emulation of fretted guitar vibrato needs to consider this distinction that is different from other types of vibrato on other instruments (voice, wind instruments, fretless bowed instruments, etc.) In fretted instruments (typically) this is a ever so slight variation on string bending where bending occurs either by horizontal movement across the fretboard, or increasing/decreasing pressure on the string (extreme case - Yngwie Malmsteem with his scalloped fretboard outfitted Strat)

OK, I'm tiring of this, but it is instructive to me just to type this out, why emulation of guitar playing on keyboard will likely always be a challenge - but that kid in the Tyros video is doing pretty well!

Anyone care to add to this list?

I'd add, "Note Stack" to that list.

Certain inversions of chords that a keyboardist grabs easily, and may attempt to use as guitar parts, are actually giveaways because they are either virtually unreachable on the guitar neck with standard tuning, or, if reachable, very hard to have strong fingers left over for certain bent notes.

But perhaps the single most cheezy thin that can happen is use of Modwheel for bends that sound like Modwheel instead of bent or slide strings.


--Mac