https://www.facebook.com/NorthwestMusicScene/photos/a.338468181523.145703.330099731523/10152255228026524/?type=1&theater

So true!

Around here, they don't want to pay more than $75/player. It's like being back in the 1970s. I won't do it.

yet DJs can still earn $1000 and up per gig

Simple solution guys/gals just don't play if you don't get paid, unless it is a bonofide charity of benefit.

Later,

the only fallacy there is that the bars are making a pile of money. most are prolly losing money or just breaking even.

I suppose instead of bars being the 'distributors' - you could instead replace that with "INternet music distributors"

Also - to Pat's point - if you want to make $$$ - become a DJ.

If you want to do what you love - you'll probably lose money on the proposition, but - you'll be doing what you love !!!

This is deja-vu all over again.... didn't we just have this conversation....

Yes, the live music industry is in a definite slump, and the open mic clubs are taking away some of the business we have left.

I went into the yacht club, country club, retirement community, private party end of the business and although it has also been hit, it hasn't been hit as hard as the restaurant/night club end of our biz.

Exception: We do play one "club" once a week and We're in our 7th year. It pays OK, but not great, but it's steady and it gives us a place for prospective party people to come hear us.

The problem is, live music isn't as important to the younger generation as it was when I was young.

Add to that TV now takes a big share of our market.

TV?

When I was younger, TV had a few channels, grainy picture, and very tinny, low bandwidth, midrange sound. If you wanted to see a band, you had go go out.

Now we have hundreds of channels, Giand sized Ultra HD screens, 7.1 surround sound, and a cable or satellite bill that can easily top $300/month - there goes the entertainment budget right there.

IMHO the band should hold the audience, not be the draw. Any following the band has should be seen as an extra to the club owner. But of course, many club owners don't agree.

But in my end of the business, there is a party, or it's a private club. People are coming because either they've been invited or it's their club. Our job is the same, entertain them while they are there. Give them a good time so that they want to come back.

Insights and incites by Notes

Two thoughts to add to Notes remark. When I was young, Network TV also featured several all-music programming shows. Hootnanny, Hullabaloo (I think), Soul Train, Midnight Special, Austin City Limits and Lawrence Welk. Variety shows such as Sonny and Cher, Glen Campbell, Barbara Mandrell, Johnny Cash, Smothers Brothers, and many more including Ed Sullivan. Saturday TV featured Country Music shows such as Buck Owens, Porter Wagoner, The Wilburn Brothers, Pop Goes the Country.

The local TV stationed also had a 30 minute local band TV show on Saturdays. Weekly live radio programming is still popular in certain markets for example, Latin communities and for church groups. Little money but an opportunity to pick up a sponsor for help with your live gigs and build exposure and a fan base. Should work to some extent for any genre of music.

Second, although best accessed through a booking agent or personal management, Festivals and Corporate events have big budgets for live entertainment. A more unique but also a lucrative market is through government and foundation grant programs. Lot's of hoops to jump through and you have to develop creative themes, but a lot of grant money goes unclaimed every year. There is grant money available for nearly any idea you can conceive if you also have the ability to sell it. That's where the hoops part comes in. I just checked on line for SC government and there are two available grants posted that total $8,000 and the only exception listed, proceeds can not be used for brick and mortar projects. So, you can't build your studio, but you can buy a tour bus..... get paid to record your BIAB album.... hire a 'real producer'.... Book 10 non-paying gigs at universities, local collage, Art theater, etc and still get paid by a grant.

I live a mile from the Hermosa Beach Pier. It's wall to wall bars including the once world famous Lighthouse. There used to be live music from singles to bands all over the beach from Hermosa down to the Redondo Pier.

I'm a UFC fan and I'll go to wichever one of the bars is showing the pay per view events. With dinner, parking and a couple of beers it's about half of the PPV cost at home.

Since I'm there already I will walk around and check out the various places. All those bars are sports bars with big screens and a couple have a DJ but most don't. Here's the rub, those bars are packed on a Saturday night with a line up outside to get in. The Lighthouse is the only live music venue on the pier and it has been at the most 75% full, no line to get in. The contrast to the other bars just a 100 feet away was stark. Those places are jumping while the Lighthouse looks dead from the walk street. Two weeks ago they had a DJ. A DJ in the Lighthouse! Even that wasn't working. I stuck my head in the door at about 10PM and it was maybe two thirds full. Maybe it's a late crowd but I think I know the reason, the decor hasn't changed since WW2 while the other places are basically brand new. 25 years ago I was in a 7 piece horn band rocking the Lighthouse twice a month on Saturday nights.

I've noticed this for over a year now. I hate to say it but the Lighthouse needs a Bar Rescue and if that were to happen, that would be the end of live music there because it's not big enough to turn into a live music showcase venue. I hear the same family still owns it but they've got to be losing big.

The only thing I can say is at Baja Sharkee's where I saw the fights, the crowd was under 30, SRO, they were very nice well behaved young people who were having lots of fun. They didn't need no stinkin band or even dancing. The only DJ'ing going on were comments over a PA on either the fights, the football game or drink specials.

Financially I have to admit it's a good business model for the owners. There's no need or room for a band.

Bob

It is dismal, to be sure. I have not played for my living in 25 years, and I won't go back to it now even being retired and not needing the money. There are just things I won't do, and every live act does them. I refuse to play that lowest common denominator copycat set list. If my original music is not good enough to hold the crowd's interest, then I am not good enough at songwriting. I will not play if there are TVs on in the room. I am the entertainment. Pay attention to ME. Once again, if they do not pay attention to me, it is because I am not good enough. If it's a big game night, like an Ohio State football game, don't book entertainment, or book a short set night after the game is over, at which point you must TURN THE DAMNED TV OFF! And while you are switching things off, turn off any video games as well.

And don't expect to hear any Jimmy Buffet, Van Morrison or Skynard cliche songs. Not from me. You will hear 2 sets of 45 minutes each, containing 10 Eastside Eddie songs, and maybe ONE selected cover, done in my own arrangement, not exactly like a CD. If you want them to sound liek the CD, play CDs. If you don't like my songs, then I apologize because I failed as a songwriter and I promise that I will work harder at it. I like being in a position where I don't care if I play live again or not. I completely understand people who play music for a living doing what they have to do to draw people and keep them there. It's just not for me. I did it for years when I needed the money to pay bills. Now I don't, so I won't. I love being retired. And financially solvent.

I miss "music clubs" like everybody else does. I HATE the thought of having to play in restaurants where you can't set up until 15 minutes before starting time because they want to turn those 4 tables where they stash the entertainment "just one more time". If I play at 9, I want to set up at 3, sound check thoroughly so I have time to troubleshoot any problems, and come back to play at 9. My take on people who refuse to do that is that they are lazy and don't care about their craft enough to do so. That is just my opinion. (I have heard MANY players tell me "I'm not driving there twice.") Feel free to flame me if you like. Also feel free to fumble with an equipment problem at 9pm when there are no music stores open to buy whatever you need to replace in order to fix the problem and save the gig.

Cleveland used to be a really good music town. And if you were to look at the band listings, it appears to still be a rockin' town. However, once you go to visit some of those places, it gets sad very quickly. Almost nobody has a keyboard player anymore. They either play "live karaoke" with recorded keyboard tracks or just do without and sound empty. The same with backing vocals. Most of the bands are a power trio with a singer. There is a core group of about 25 players who all play the same 45 songs and mix and match pieces and book gigs for $250 under different names, but it's the same bunch of people playing the same crap. One place I used to visit often when they first opened has not seen me since about May because the owner is now booking "junk bands". 2 people from a 5 piece blues act go in there as a "Lite" version with just the guitar and bass player. Sometimes it's 3 of them. Then the 2 of them play with 2 people from another band under a different name... and on and on. None of them rehearse, none of them are tight, and they all just wing songs as they go. They will never get a dime of my money until they go back to having REAL bands again. It's mainly solo and duo acts now, again, all because of the big mamuo. Minimal PA, minimal lighting, no set lists, no sound checks, nothing. Just wing it. If it sounds bad, so what? I still get money. And I really don't like to see those acts. That's why I rarely go out is that the music scene is so diluted. For about 6 months I did sound for a band while they looked for someone who actually wanted to do it. In 6 months, maybe 17-19 gigs, their set list changed ONCE, and that was to plug in 2 "new" copy songs.

I long for the return of the days when music was about music and not money. But as long as bars pay bad bands just to come and play SOMETHING, it will continue to suffer from the major suckage we have now.

I'm terminally positive about this topic, even though all the evidence states otherwise. I basically think that the darkest hour is just before the dawn. Every technological change creates new opportunities, but it also erodes the old way. People who watch for and identify the new opportunities will do well, and those who put all their eggs in "the old way" basket will tend to find fewer and fewer eggs.

I think there are a thousand ways to pursue music today, right now.. we just need to find them and act on them.

Or not. Everybody gets to make that call. I like playing music so much that I choose to look for the new opportunities, even if it means I have to put on my salesman hat and approach places I think would make viable venues for baby boomers and try to sell them on my vision.

If you ask me to name the new opportunities, I can't because I haven't actualized any yet. But I do have some ideas and I'm working on them. I fully expect to get good results eventually, but not without a lot of effort.

Nothing can happen unless it's possible. I look around and I see people making new musical paradigms work, therefore I know it's possible. I see it as a new gold rush. Some will get rich selling picks and pans to the prospectors, some will strike gold, and the vast majority of people will waste their time.

Life has no guarantees. But multiple studies have proven that people who have goals are happier... whether they reach their goals or not. It is the pursuit that provides the thrill.

"I long for the return of the days when music was about music and not money."


When was that? I must have missed that period.

One of the biggest killers of live music around here was the DWI laws.

During the slow season our wedding band played at American Legions, VFWs, Elks clubs and the like. All of those jobs dried up when DWI laws were introduced. Note most all the audience of these clubs was elderly and respected the laws.

The small town where I grew up had 4 bars that had bands. Now they are all gone due to lack of business because of those laws.

Now don't get me wrong. I believe in and still want to keep those laws. But most people are now more aware of what can happen even if they have one drink, thus they do not go to bars. This brought the demise of many a band in our area.

Notes,

Forgive me for for cherry picking your well thought out response. But what I did quote from your post just may be the most profound explanation contributing to the demise of the live music scene in today's world.

Well said Notes!

Later,

I don't think that's true, I think the definition of live music has changed. Now, in the top 100 list of top earning entertainers is a bunch of DJ's making millions, yes millions from live shows. These people are not what we tend to think of as DJ's ie, spinning records at a sock hop.

You have to look up these guys on YT and see some of their shows. They are huge, thousands of people and it's not just the DJ, he'll have guest artists with him, they're working the crowd just as well as the Rat Pack ever did.

I watched a tutorial about some kid in the UK who's apparently a superstar DJ. He gets raw unmixed tracks from various artists and then does a complete live remix of them including blending the original tracks with parts he's creating himself using tons of software and other equipment. It was truly amazing what he did. Him and the interviewer were comparing what he does to another superstar DJ who would take the exact same raw tracks and create something entirely different with them. Think about that a minute. I had never heard of that before. Current stars releasing their raw multitracks for DJ's to mess with? Would Sinatra or Aerosmith ever do that? No way and that's the problem we have. We don't even think in those terms so we can't begin to comment on it.

We, including me, have zero clue about this stuff. We don't understand it, we don't relate to it, we completely ignore it.

It is live music? You bet it is, just check out those vids if you don't believe me. When I posted about Pier Avenue, I'm writing from my pov as well as everybody in this thread. Those kids are not looking at these bars for their dance party fix. They're going to other clubs we don't even know exist for these local live DJ shows.

Bob

This generation of live music listeners just care about a beat, and the DJs speed up and slow down songs so that incessant beat NEVER changes. Nobody cares anymore about quality guitar work, accurate harmonies, tasteful keyboard fills... all they want is BOOM BOOM BOOM at 112 bpm for 4 hours. DJs have 4-5 minutes between CD changes to go to the bathroom and get water, so they can go non stop for 4 hours with no break, unlike musicians who need to catch their breath and rest their vocal chords for 20 minutes between sets.

I personally despise DJs. Though I despise a lot of things, so don't take THAT to heart too much....

I'm sure that's true with some DJ's Eddie but that's certainly not true with the one's I just talked about. Seriously take the time to look up the names of the biggest DJ's and then go to the 'tube. You'll be shocked and amazed with what they're doing. Same with beatboxers btw. There's a kid from Australia who's a big star and I found an hour long vid of him putting on a show in what looks like a big theater somewhere in front of believe it or not a white middle aged crowd.

Middle aged is what, 40-55 maybe? They're a full generation behind us. A 50 year old was born in 1964. What does he know of classic rock from the 60's and 70's? He was in high school in 1980 and his musical taste probably didn't mature until 1990. Rap and hip hop were huge by then.

This is crazy, I just googled "beatboxing Cleveland" and this came up:

http://www.kentwired.com/ksubuzz/article_1e875c14-2d95-11e4-a3c2-0017a43b2370.html

I noticed he says he's now a one man act using two guitar synths, looper pedals, drum machines and his beatboxing vocal skills. I barely know what he's talking about but obviously it's selling.

Damn, I just looked up "beatboxing los angeles" and found a whole crapload of hits. Shows, contests, films, colleges, festivals. I'm almost sorry I brought it up... No wonder there's no bands, this is where the audience is. One writer calls it the "Fifth Element of Hip Hop".

I think I'll stop now.

Bob

Today's DJs are different then the ones when I was in my teens. I did buy a DVD from DJ Tiesto (don't no how to put the tréma or diaresis above the e) for investigational reasons (just wanted to know what he does with music). The crowd even doesn't dance, the crowd just stands there. Even though he's "only" playing vinyl disks, he's, sort of, making live music. Changing records without missing a beat, mixing into the music several special effects... just incredible and creating a new experience. And he seems not to have a fixed playlist. He's searching for the next record like everybody else would, looking at one and putting it away again, taking the next one...

I used to work full time as a DJ once, but I was just more like Wolfman Jack, playing one record, then the next one, if I needed a pause for the cause, I'd put on Stars on 45.

I agree, music does not have the same significance that it had before music went digital. And musicians aren't digital. They are not compatible to the contemporary lifestyle.

One area where live music is thriving is bluegrass festivals. I think it's safe to say there are more festivals now than ever before. They're held all over the the country from spring through the fall.

You have lots of original music mixed in with old favorites and there's a ton of young and old musicians who are at the top of their game musically.

The crowds run the gamut from young hipsters to old hippies, accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. The audiences are large and enthusiastic.

The festivals range in size from small local affairs to huge festivals like Merlefest where you literally have to be bused in. Merelefest has numerous stages, workshops for various instruments and there are opportunities to meet a lot of performers. It features bluegrass, folk, blues, jazz, country and fusions of all of the above.

Pat Marr went for the first time this past year and said he had a blast.

While it's hard to break into that scene as a performer, they do welcome original music and new acts.

For those of you that have never been to one, you may want to take time to check them out next year when they fire back up, even if bluegrass isn't your thing.

I went to read that article and here is the sentence that popped out to me.

"The bar his trio was set to play still wanted music, and Deputy needed rent money."

Maybe he could get one of those "job" things if he needs rent money and not whoore (spelling incorrect to bypass censor) himself out with an inferior product for money.

Apparently he was one of those "throw together a band" guys if his bass player is backing out the night before a show. That means to me that the bass player found a gig that paid him 10 bucks more so he had so little conscience that he stiffed the other 2 guys. I have lived that monetary dishonesty and betrayal before, and it stinks.

That throw together crap is just awful. A band is supposed to play with the same lineup every time, performing a predetermined set list that has been rehearsed until it is tight, with no long dead air spots between songs while the players figure out a song that everybody knows and what key they plan to play it in. The idea is to make people leave saying "Wow. Those guys can really sing and play." Not "Man I was SOOOOO wasted!!!!"

Once again note, I no longer play, so feel free to write this off as just me talking nonsense. I want to play concerts. In concert venues. With tickets sold in advance. And CDs and t-shirts sold in the lobby by my people. Of course that is never going to happen for me, because as I continue to say, I am not good enough. However, I will never be a musical prostitute like way too many local level players are, playing with 5 different bands because nobody will commit. The over achiever in me sets goals that are far too high to attain, which is why I don't play anymore.

And there is "Why I don't like cover bands and don't go to see them" in a nutshell.

Live music is alive and well. It has merely morphed into singles/duos from 5 piece outfits.

I would love to have a 7-piece with some horns, a killer FOH guy and a righteous sound system. Of course, I would also like to have a 42' Grand Banks trawler and a chalet in Tahoe.

I think it's simply a matter of demographics. If you're playing 60's/70's covers, adjust your demographic accordingly.

Someone born in 1964 was 16 in 1980 ( to use Bob's example). The problem is; people don't just turn 16 and begin to notice music. I believe that music affects children at a tender age. Most of the early Beatles fans were 12-13 year old girls. 12. That's someone born in 1951.

For 60's/70's covers, I think the prime demo is about 45-70. Sounds like a dull group, no? The fact is that this demographic is mostly retired, affluent, and going through their 2nd Childhood!

I know this is a rather odious way to make a living to some , but when the sound is perfect, and you're in the pocket, and people are dancing – it's all worth it.

By the way.................

Announcing the 90 dB / 2015 Dive Bar Tour & Fish Fry
Coming Soon To A Dump Near You!

I agree with everything Bob says and I'll ramp it up a notch: from what I can see, bluegrass is the genre to watch for performing opportunities. It is not only alive and well, it is being actively promoted by preservation societies and other groups such as all the festivals (all over the country) that are dedicated to promoting the music. Preservation societies also provide funding for local gigs.

Talented performers? H#ll yeah! and more importantly is the fact that there are LOTS and LOTS of young bluegrass musicians in the pipeline! and they are GOOD! Their presence is significant because it virtually guarantees at least one more generation of bluegrass. (I think it won't stop there)

Ramping it up another notch, I think that bluegrass is to the current music environment what rock was to the 60s and 70s. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. When was the last time you saw a music festival dedicated to any other genre that approached the size and diversity of Merlefest? And Merlefest is just one of a hundred such festivals!





That's true. I did... And I'll be going back! I also plan to explore other festivals besides Merlefest... within easy driving distance there's a fiddler's convention in Galax Va., Floydfest in Floyd Va., a bluegrass festival in Raleigh, one in Gettysburg Pa... no matter where you live, I bet there are multiple BG festivals near you.




I don't think any of us will be playing at Merlefest any more than we would have been invited to play at Woodstock.. but in the same way that Woodstock stirred up interest in local Rock & Roll for decades, these bluegrass festivals are creating local performing opportunities. If I were a good bluegrass musician (and I make no claim to be) I'd have no problem playing around here. There's as much bluegrass going on here as there is anything else. And it's on the rise.




Two days ago I was listening to the link at the bottom of BobCFlatpickers tagline (music in the mountains) and learned of another festival near Bob. (If you haven't clicked Bob's link and listened to his music, you should... even if you don't like bluegrass, the awareness is worth an hour of your life.

heh... me too..




I agree 100%. And apparently a lot of people do. I recently went on Gig Salad to scope out the market saturation for various genres. When I searched for Jazz, I found a handful. When I searched for Motown I hardly found any. When I searched for Oldies bands, I got so many pages of hits I stopped before I got to the end. I was looking in a 50 mile radius of where I live. And THAT.. is part of the problem. If you own the only restaurant in town you'll make more money than if you own a restaurant on a street lined with 150 other restaurants. The market is saturated with oldies bands.... partly because of supply and demand. Lots of people still like oldies.

Getting back to Bob's observation is the age demographic. You have to seek gigs where your demographic goes. The 45-70 group has largely abandoned clubs, so if you are playing oldies and looking for club gigs, no wonder you aren't getting work.

Retired boomers go to calmer places like restaurants, parks, festivals, the beach, the mountains, rest homes, camp grounds, private parties, churches, social functions, weddings, golf courses etc. If those places don't currently offer live music, you need to put your sales hat on and go talk to them. They need to be made aware of the fact that their main demographic likes live music in the form of oldies. What's good for you is also good for them

You mean, you don't???? Maybe you need to turn it up to 100db!!

“The market is saturated with oldies bands...."


Which 'market'? Raleigh? Chicago? Miami? LA? NYC? There is reason why there are so many oldies bands in your 50 mile radius. There is a demand for them. I'd be willing to bet that in the Triangle there are hundreds of small venues where some great music is being played.

Here in “God's Waiting Room”, where the average age is 112, you have two choices. Classic Rock or Classic Country (think Bob's Country Bunker:

Elwood Blues:

"What kind of music do you usually have?"

Waitress:

"Oh, we have both kinds. Country and Western!"

. We do both. Heck, we ad-libbed the theme from “Green Acres” last week because some guy dared us.
Now, that's livin' on the edge, man.



“Retired boomers go to calmer places like restaurants, parks, festivals, the beach, the mountains, rest homes, camp grounds, private parties, churches, social functions, weddings, golf courses etc.”


Again, Pat – depends on where you are. All of our local bikers are retired boomers. They don't care for calmer places.

>>>..Changing records without missing a beat, mixing into the music several special effects... just incredible and creating a new experience. ...>>>

Actually it is stupid easy. There are a few free DJ software programs you can try to see how its done. Took me about 5 minutes to learn.

The key is the beat indicator crawling across the top of the screen. BiaB has one, in the Audio Chord Wizard window. DJ programs have two, one for each virtual turntable. Roll the second turntable, adjust the speed so that the spikes line up, then crossfade the volume.

Nothin' to it...

Not so much here in LA but if you can post some links to tunes with interesting keyboard parts, maybe I can work them up.

As far as searching out where the classic rock boomers are I've thought about that. We're only a few years away from nursing homes being filled with the children of the 60's. I can see it now, I'll have a setlist consisting of the Stones, Led Zep, the Allman Brothers, The Doors, James Brown and I'll be using tracks in the dining room keeping the whole thing under 80db. I'll be taking nice quiet Deep Purple Jon Lord organ solos. Sounds like so much fun...

Bob

Anything can be played in "bluegrass style": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMmhulLqy48 (song starts at just past the 2 minute mark). Lots of jamming on this one.

Bluegrass Breakdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p11__FrJU6g

I remember when every Holiday Inn on up had a band, and there were singles 'meet markets' all over the place with live music.

I traveled the country playing live music clubs, and there were always other bands just around the corner. I got to meed Rick Derringer, Peter Cetera, Terry Kath, Sonny & Cher (then Caesar and Cleo) and many others before they became famous, playing in the bar around the corner.

Most cities with more than 3 traffic lights had competing lounges with 4 to 7 piece bands and they were jam packed.

Those days are gone because people don't jam pack those bars anymore. Live music obviously isn't as important to most people as it used to be.

I hear people in the baby-boomer generation stating that there are no places to go and dance to live music anymore. I ask them how many times would they go, and the answer is usually fewer than once a month.

If live music isn't packing the clubs, live bands aren't going to be hired. The club owner wants to make a return on his/her investment.

The town I grew up in is about 10 times as populous as it was when I was gigging in lounges, and there are fewer than half as many bars with bands as there were then.

The golden age of live music in bars is gone. Will it ever come back? I don't know. Subscription TV, DWI laws, Sports Bars, DJ's, Karaoke, and a generation who grew up listening to DJs, doesn't make me seem hopeful.

I'm glad I grew up when I did.

Insights and incites by Notes

Wow - I didn't expect to see so much interesting, reminiscing on this topic. Lots of you guys have great memories of a time when there was a bigger demand for live bands.

Reading on this topic as I have through the years, what stands out to me is the fact that schools have cut music programs, so far less children (and parents of those children) have been exposed to the pleasures and joys an instrument can bring. I have a nephew whose parents are not 'music' people - in that they do not seek to listen to lots of music, nor have a joy for more harmonic music, and not surprisingly, their child's values are the same.

I'll bet everyone on here has a completely opposite history - either a musician in the family, or inspired in school where you were introduced to an instrument.

I'm personally in both agreement and disagreement on a few points. While the Internet does offer 'unimagined possiblities'...I feel that technology in general has decreased and in some cases filled the need for live music. Granted - the experience of watching music live vs. on a video screen are ENTIRELY different and the video screen can't replace the human connection and excitement of live people. But it can come too damn close in terms of satisfying the audience - especially the audience that hasn't grown up with exposure to the experiences I listed above. It's a little like the 'buggy whip', IMHO. I do think - as Pat has mentioned, that as a live entertainer, if you can find a way to increase the listener's participation and experience of the live event in a way that is not emulated using video in isolation, and combining various technologies to do something new that hasn't been done before (and certainly there are many tech opportunities for this) - that you can come up with something very new - creating a new live experience for audiences that hasn't been done before.

I think unfortunately the the VOLUME demand for live music has indeed gone down to to it's easy capture, availabilty, ease of sharing/distribution, all on the internet.

I'm lucky because I went a different path in life - believing that music was ALWAYS a dog of a career because of the intense competition. More people play music than baseball, I bet - and look how hard it is to become a professional baseball player. Given the low percentage of musicians who make a steady, middle-income wage, I went the 'conservative' route of 'Electrical Engineering" major. Unfortunately - this didn't exactly work out like I expected either - since when I graduated in '88, all the largest local employers for EE's were the Defense companies, and this was a time a gradual decline for them due to decreased government funding.

I did aspire and hope to be a professional 'wedding band' musicican, but my lack of natural talent, a late start in playing (e.g. started guitar at 14 years old), not finding the 'right' teacher, prevented me from reaching the skill level needed for this while wedding bands were still somewhat common.

So now, my only really hope for spreading my musical joy is through teaching younger students and begginer/intermediate players - for which there is still a demand, especially if you have patience and enthusiasm and love to see another little person or motivated teen and up person come to enjoy what music has to offer.

My 26 cents, and 'music life story'...

I sincerely hope everyone here had a good Christmas. To keep this discussion going here's a quote from Flatfoot above:



Check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg7sptEx0Ms

The actual DJ's start at about 3:50.

Yeah, this looks easy. These things are not static recordings, these guys are controlling the whole thing using loops, beats, prerecorded tracks and synths live. And there's a few people at this show, like oh I don't know 50,000 maybe? Here's another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byZO3dMLtpA

This one looks smaller, like 5,000 or so and it's just one guy but it's obvious he's a big star. Again, from a few interview vids I've seen all these different elements of music you hear are all being controlled, created if you will, live using a whole library of prerecorded stuff. The guy is mixing, muting, fading in and out, starting/stopping all kind of things.

I get bored and curious and just find things on YT. I certainly don't like it, I can't relate to it in the slightest bit but something big is going on right under our noses that we know nothing about.

Sorry Flatfoot, you're not learning this in five minutes.

Oh, beatboxing. I found the vid of that Australian kid I mentioned earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNZBSZD16cY

Don't give up on this too soon, give it 10 minutes or so. This is much more subdued than that monster DJ show, it's just one guy but he does incredible things with his voice.

Bob

Oh, I watched a bit of the first two electronic dance music (EDM) shows -- very, very depressing. There is just something sad about that being concert material and the huge, huge egos of these EDM DJ's.

I can see it in a club for dancing, but for a full concert (or festival??), I just don't get it. Are the DJ's talented and skilled at what they do -- sure, but I still don't get it.

Now beat boxing, on the other hand, is a real "musical" talent. I don't know how that guys gets that multi-sound thing, but it is pretty dang good.

That's the funniest darned thing I've ready in quite a while.

Reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIm8qNirTOk

No matter how well they play CDs, they have yet to write a song. That puts them in a different category. They are not musicians.

I agree.

By that criteria, wouldn't they not be songwriters?

Nope. Just CD players.

I have been reading this thread with interest.
Music has changed so much in our lifetime. When I first bought BIAB I would NEVER have considered using loops and now they are included in 2015.

This is how music has changed in our lifetimes.
I found this article where Beyonce is compared to Freddie Mercury and this picture, from the article, says it all



The Beatles, then Queen, gave me inspiration to write songs and then came the song that was an influence for me to start recording and all to be done MY WAY

John Miles: Music is my first love. 1976



We all should be grateful that we grew up with real music ranging from Big Bands, Jazz, Swing, Rock and Roll, Country,Blues etc. From Count Basie, Sinatra, Beatles, Stones, Queen,Led Zep etc and now we have "One Direction" and "Justin Bieber".

My Dad complained in the late '70's that all pubs with Jazz Bands had closed and now they had bands playing modern rubbish (my music LOL) Now I say the same.
My son was a Night Club Manager and had quest DJ's every weekend mixing tracks, using their computers, because that is what the punters wanted. They got £1000 a gig WHAT!!!! for mixing stuff, very clever but they are not musicians they are now technicians.

Us musician oldies are becoming extinct.
Just my thoughts

Alyn

They are both, musicians and technicians.

1. Musicians: They use THEIR version of Band-in-a-Box with RealTracks. They know what their RealTracks play, and how, and how fast.

2. Technicians: Most of the real life musicians are also technicians.

• Almost nobody started in a band having a bunch of roadies and an FOH-mixing guy. We all, at lest the vast majority of us, had to set-up our equipment by ourselves, tune the instrument where applicable, connect the equipment...
• Each and everybody of us had to learn scales, chords, and the connection of both; chops and licks and entire tunes to play.

I don't say I like that, but drawing crowds of 5 to 6 digits for several hours per set is at least impressive.
And, they improvise, they communicate with the masses, ...
Per se they are not much different than a marching band playing for the 684th time "Seventysix Trombones" using the same arrangement or a Dixieland band playing their "'s Tight Like That" or the club dance band reiterating "Country Roads" for the two-steppers.

It's all about what the customer wants.
It's all about that bass, no treble bills, no coins in the pocket of the organizer.

I respectfully disagree. Almost everyone either plays an instrument(s) - a musician - or writes lyrics - a song writer - or sings - another musician.

If one just mixes and matches RTs then they are a talented DJ IMHO.



I agree



Again these are musicians



Again I will disagree using my previous musician DJ comparisons.



Unfortunately this is true!

I remember reading in my college economics class about how some businesses who had achieved monopoly status lost out to upstart companies. In every case it was due to how they defined their business.

The railroads lost out to trucking because they failed to see themselves as a TRANSPORTATION business. They pigeonholed themselves as RAILROADS, nothing more. They had enough capital at the onset that they could have owned the trucking business from the get-go, but they lacked the vision to see the hand writing on the wall.

The swiss watch companies were approached with digital watch technology from its inception.. but instead of buying the technology and monopolizing the business, they laughed at it. Ultimately, It ate their lunch.

You can argue that a hand made swiss watch is better.. and of course , it is... but when there are lower priced alternatives that provide the same commercial benefit, fewer and fewer people will be willing to pay for the better product.

And so it is with music

It may not be the type of music you or I like but check this from the Berklee College of Music:

http://www.berklee.edu/events/detail/11393/turntable-technique-the-art-of-the-dj

Read this guy's bio. He's a musician and a very good one.

Bob

Another thing to keep in mind when we watch these videos of DJs playing to 30,000 people:

in every genre there are superstars who play to large audiences. There are plenty more using DJ software and cheap PAs who can't get gigs.

In the same way that you wouldn't beat yourself up because you can't fill a stadium or a festival like the superstars of today and yesterday, don't worry about what these guys are doing. It makes more sense to focus on the music we know and love, performed for an audience of our peers.

And, as 90dB has pointed out in response to some of my points, where our peers gather tends to be regional. So part of the task is in knowing your market. Notes and 90dB are still working because they know where they fit in the equation.

Sooooo, let me think "out loud" for a minute.

I consider myself a musician: I can adequately play a few instruments, and similarly carry a tune vocally. I am somewhat proficient at BIAB.

Let's say I have composed a half dozen songs using BIAB entirely, and "released" them to the pubic. They are, by anyone's standard, "adequate".

Along comes an accomplished DJ, likes my songs, takes them to a "gig" where there is a multitude of people, and proceeds to "mix" them, lining up the "spikes" or whatever they do, and the crowd goes wild.

Who is more of a musician, me or the DJ?
Without my input, he wouldn't have a "hit" on his hand. Without his mixing talent, my songs are destined for obscurity, sitting on a website somewhere.

My expertise came from my knowledge of music and BIAB, his came from his knowledge of mixing and knowing what the crowd might enjoy.

He may not know a guitar from a sitar but is he any less a "person who makes music" than I?

LLOYD S

Once again, standard disclaimer: IN MY OPINION....

There is a difference in my mind between a musician and someone who knows how to play an instrument, even many instruments.

Musicians CREATE music. Players PLAY music.

Musicians know MUSIC. Players know SONGS. SONGS written by MUSICIANS.

There are a bazillion copy band players out there who play MUCH better than I ever did. I still do not consider them to be MUSICIANS if they lack the ability to compose and convey their own musical thoughts. I apply that across the board. The same concept applies to a PAINTER vs an ARTIST, a COOK and a CHEF, a BUILDER and an ARCHITECT.

The artist creates a piece of are. Painters copy it. A chef creates recipes. A cook duplicates those recipes. An architect designs a building. A builder constructs it.

Someone playing CDs or vinyl albums of other people's creations is not a musician.
Once again... IN MY OPINION.

I just don't like or want to ever again play copy music. I will never put another composer's song on a CD. If I can't write 11 decent songs, I should quit. I have about 25 done, and about 10 more in the hopper. If a DJ wants to use any of my songs, as long as I get my BMI mechanicals for any airplay or my ASCAP royalties for live use, he is welcome to them.

good points Eddie.

By your definition, I'm not a musician; but I have no problem with that. I never really thought that I was.

me neither : (
...because I don't write
I used to differentiate between a musician as the one who played and instrument and an artist - as one who created.

Eddie i seldom take the time to disagree with you my friend, but here i have to. By definition a musician is one who makes music. If one can play the chords, and or notes of a song he is making music. and practicing his musician ship. If one writes and composes music he is simply taking notes that have been around since the dawn of time and constructing them in a different arrangement. He plays a part. some write others play, and many of those same player do so with a lot of expression and skill. Some take a basic composition and enhance/augment/improve it, through skill and musicianship.

Using your architect/contractor illustration. Sure a good architect can design a building, but it takes a good skilled builder to make it come to life. I have been in construction for 40 years, and guess what many times the architects drawing would never work if the builder did not know how to interpret them and make up for the fact the architect knows paper, and design, but very little about practical building skills.

Music is the same in my mind many composers/writer design great music "plans" but it takes a skilled musician to interpret that to an audience.

As far as playing others material. I have heard really bad cover bands, but i have heard people interpret someones material and knock it out of the park! I have heard covers that were better than the original, and interpreted covers that left me amazed. While i understand your feeling, and to some degree agree with some of it. I think to round up every one in a box defeats the whole purpose of what music is all about, expression!

The arts have always been difficult to define empirically... that's part of what differentiates them from the sciences

It also explains why art tends to change with fashion, while science remains fairly static.

Eddie I agree with most of what you are saying but here is where I respectfully differ with you.

A musician can play an instrument or instruments regardless of what they play for money, i.e. cover bands or songs.

A creative musician (artists musician?) can create original music, again regardless of what they play for money.

Well, then according to your definition Tommy Dorsey is no musician. I have to thnk about that.

IN MY OPINION, anyone who is proficient on their instrument is a musician, whether it's classical, jazz or rock and roll. Ray

I agree wholeheartedly with Ray. If someone needs to put qualifiers on the term "musician", you say working musician, studio musician, classical musician, etc.

If you're proficient on a musical instrument, then you've earned the right to be called a musician, even if you've never played a note in public, written a song or recorded.

Why try to deny someone who's worked hard enough to become proficient on a musical instrument the honor of being called a musician just because they don't meet some additional nonsensical parameters?

Sorry Eddie, but your ridiculous qualifiers don't make sense.

I agree, that's too strict Eddie. Are you going to tell us that the first chair violinist for the Berlin Phil isn't a musician if he hasn't written anything? Ok, define anything. Everybody in any music class has to write something. Mostly it's not any good but they wrote something. So, if they totally suck on their instrument but they wrote a few things that were more or less musical that means they're musicians while the virtuoso instrumentalist isn't?

Bob

We are talking about people who hack their way through Mustang Sally, not professional symphony players who perform Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. That is not even an apple to apple comparison, but do whatever you like to make you feel right and that you "won". My life doesn't change either way.

These discussions are not about extremes. They are about club level people hacking out a side income. The same way that by definition if someone pays you one dollar to perform you are a professional, saying that because someone can play an instrument makes them a musician may be your interpretation based on the literal definition.

You may not agree, but to say I am wrong....? I said it was MY OPINION. How can MY OPINION be wrong? It doesn't have to be your opinion. If you want to think that someone who can make sound from an instrument is a musician, then call the trained monkeys at the zoo who can bang a mallet on a drum musicians as well.

Frank Sinatra did not play an instrument. (Somehow that is the first name people throw into the mix when the cover/original debates rage.) By my definition, Sinatra was not a musician. He was a vocalist, and my favorite vocalist of all time. I have unlimited amounts of respect for The Chairman. He did not write, and he did not play. Making his living in the music business does not make him a musician. It makes him an entertainer. (See "respect" above.) The crooners who performed standards are apples and oranges from the local club hackers who play the 3 chord wonder songs because they require less skill than songs that actually maybe throw in a minor somewhere along the way. We ALL know the kind of players I typically refer to, those who do NOT work at the craft, those who do NOT care about the music, those who do NOT have the proper respect for it and just want to make their $75 and a bar tab at the corner bar. THAT group is NOT musicians.

"The way" to enter my circle of who I call musicians is to write songs, record them, play them out, and fall on your face enough times to make you work harder at writing better songs. Take those songs on the road and play them in Peoria. Work your way up to the "tour bus and t-shirts sold at the arena shows" level.

I fail to see how the chef vs cook analogy is off target, though frankly I don't care if anybody agrees or not. As I capitalized earlier, it is MY OPINION. My criteria is based on the creativity side, not the performance side. I say again, for now the 517th time, anybody can learn to play an instrument if they are willing to put in the time and repetitions. Playing an instrument is essentially muscle memory. If you play that major scale on your guitar neck 5000 times per day, eventually you will be able to play it fast and clean every time. The same is not true for the creative process. Every song is different. There is no muscle memory involved in songwriting. (Though some pedantic clown will likely point out that the brain is indeed a muscle.)

This reminds me of a college literature course I once took and had a professor mark wrong a test question that asked for my opinion. How can an opinion be wrong? If what you are looking for it for me to puke up YOUR opinion and say it is mine just for a grade, you will be waiting a really long time.

“The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions.”

Leonardo da Vinci


So, in your opinion; since I write music, I am a “musician”?

Bob “Notes” Norton, on the other hand, does not write. He does, however, play a wide variety of instruments and styles of music at hundreds of gigs per year. Is he not a “musician”?

An opinion cannot be “wrong”, but it can be fallacious.

Artist Mayer Hawthorne is a fitting example of your point. His desire and work output was toward becoming a top hip-hop DJ. To avoid paying royalties for commercial loops and songs, he began recording his own versions of 'sound like' Motown and Soul music songs. When he relocated to LA to advance his hip-hop career and auditioned, studio executives were impressed with his original recordings and convinced him to release an album of his original songs as a singer/songwriter rather than pursue a career as a hip-hop DJ.

"Who is more of a musician, me or the DJ?" You are. I think there is a difference between creating a sound with an instrument and manipulating/operating a radio.
I think playing an instrument is creating/copying musical sound at the source (instrument) whereas mixing existing loops, songs, phrases and sound effects is arranging.

With the advent of software like BIAB, today, a person with absolutely no musical talent, knowledge or training can manufacturer original or cover authentic music created with real instruments by real musicians. I am of the opinion this person is not a musician, merely an arranger of existing content. Has a unique musical piece been created? Absolutely. However, this person, who may cannot play any instrument, carry a tune, have no knowledge of music theory, scales, chord progressions or any manner of anything one would normally regard a musician to know, can locate lyrics and chords on line or from books and copy them into BIAB, choose or create a style they like and the software will generate a complete backing track based of their arrangement. No musical skill necessary and no musician in the room. Elvis has left the building if you will.

Sometimes, my wife and I get into very long, long 'debates', only to find out we pretty much largely agree on the thing we wasted our time debating.

This is my OPINION...

I, for one, think I understand the point Eddie is trying to make - and I love the excitement he creates on here ; )

Even though I think he is mis-using the term musician - if you read the semantics of his reasoning - which he provides in excrutiating detail, I think we can all agree he is drawing some lines in the sand to clearly describes 'different caliburs of musicians'.

This is my OPINION...you're welcome to have your own, but mine is the right opinion...lol

“In my opinion” is being over used on this thread “in my opinion”.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and state the obvious, … anything that any of us post is our own opinion unless we are quoting someone else. It’s almost as if some of us believe that by prefacing a remark with “in my opinion” that it insulates us from criticism for making those remarks.

After all, we aren’t stating absolute truths! We’re just stating our opinion. (Where’s the sarcasm emoticon when you need it?) Hehe.

I’ve got a new idea. Why not just have balls enough to state what you think without adding “in my opinion” in an effort to insulate yourself from criticism?

In all fairness, most of the posts that have used the term “in my opinion” were in response to Eddie posting his list of qualifications of what it takes to be deserving of being called a “musician”, ……..., in his opinion.

If you are proficient in playing a musical instrument, then you’re a musician. That’s not just my opinion, … it’s a fact.

Simply stated, "in my opinion", means I own that statement, right or wrong. There's no insulation there, it's what I believe. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees, I've stated my opinion on whatever the subject is. We do agree on this however, "If you are proficient in playing a musical instrument, then you’re a musician". Ray

Wives (all 3 of mine, anyway) don't debate. They dictate.

This is all just about how I describe my version of who is a musician and who is an instrument player. If I was debating with me, I would point out that the person to whom I continue to assign "musician" should actually be called "composer". Many of us here (I raise my hand first and high) use Real Band as our composing tool because it writes and plays the backing tracks. The upcoming CD is 90% Real Band tracks with 10% supporting parts performed live. So by my own definition, I am mostly composer and only 10% musician.

I get what you are all saying. My issue is more with people who play their copy music and never even try to write music using the old party line "Nobody wants to hear originals." I disagree. Nobody wants to hear BAD originals. Write good songs and people will accept them. There are quite a few artists near me who play mostly original music and they work a lot. When people choose to play covers they are in a different group who CAN write but choose not to. I could play covers too if I cared about money. I choose not to. I would honestly rather not play than play covers, and because of that I do not play.

OK, time for my opinion.

DJs are not musicians, although they do share some of the same 'crowd pacing' talents.

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument. There are bad musicians and good musicians. You don't have to play first violin in the Cleveland Orchestra to be a musician.

The radio, CD player, records, etc. are not musical instruments, but methods to reproduce what musicians have already played.

Singers are in the grey zone. True the voice is the first musical instrument, but on the other hand, the singer doesn't have to know anything about music. I consider singers who have applied themselves to their craft musicians, but I don't expect everyone to agree.

People who create music by splicing together loops that others create or doing the equivalent in BiaB are indeed making music. But are the musicians? They are in the grey zone to. They are to art what a person who creates collages are to a fine artist. Are the collage people really artists? It depends who you ask.

Of course you can be the collage artist in music and also play a musical instrument. Just because you use BiaB doesn't necessarily exclude you from the 'club'.

A professional musician is one who makes his/her living or the predominant part of his/her income playing music.

A part-time pro is one who makes the majority of his/her income doing something other than making music, but also plays for money.

An amateur musician plays music but receives no compensation for it.

None of the above definitions of pro, part-time pro, or amateur has anything to do with how good or bad of a musician that person is. I've heard some amateurs that play wonderfully and some full-time pros that are basically hacks.

Not of the above definitions have anything to do with what the musician is playing. It takes a musician to play Shostakovitch's Leningrad Symphony (No.7), Mustang Sally, Hey Good Lookin', Stormy Monday Blues, Sugar Town, Beethoven Sonata No. 8 Op. 13 (Pathetique), The Hustle, or Folsom Prison Blues. Some kinds of music require more technical ability than others, but that's just the way it is.

Songwriters and a composers write music. This usually involves also being a musician because it's difficult to write music without it.

I think it's a shame that schools drop music programs. I could go on a rant about what they do promote instead, but that's a different thread.

I'm fortunate to grow up in an age where a professional musician who had a decent amount of talent could make a living playing music. I see that it's much more difficult now.

But the world changes, it's more difficult for Accountants (CPAs), The Post Office, Blacksmiths, Automobile Muffler Shops, TV and Appliance Repairmen, Longshoremen, Small Business Owners, Small Farmers, and so on.

The demand for live music is indeed less than it was, and it covers everything from the Symphony Orchestras to the local Bar Band. There is more competition, the DJs, Karaoke, Sports Bar and that salesman in your living room, the TV.

What's the answer? How to get the public more interested in live music again? I don't know how to get them away from their TV sets and back into the bars where they belong, and if I did have the answer, I'd go into the consulting business and make some serious dollars.

Insights and incites by Notes

Schools have a specific goal not only to educate children, but also to predict future opportunities and prepare students with the skills they'll need to meet their generation's specific employment needs.

When you look at the worldwide glut of people trying to make money through music, it isn't hard to understand why the schools don't want to spend limited resources training even more people to do that. That kind of training (private music lessons, online instruction, printed music curricula, video, etc) is abundantly available in the private sector already. In fact, selling music instruction is probably one of the few ways people are actually turning a buck through music.

Then consider the fact that technology companies are forced to sponsor engineers from other countries because so few American kids go into engineering and the sciences. I wouldn't want to be a teacher now... too many special interest groups pushing their agendas. But one thing is sure: they have to make choices on how to spend the resources at their disposal, and the evidence doesn't indicate that we need more musicians.

My two cents. I understand that's a point of view not shared by all.

Uhhhh, what Bob said!

See I did not waste time I am using for doing arrangements :>

Later,

Hey Eddie, i keep hearing about this upcoming album, we are awaiting that thang! I went back over the posted song forum looking for a post of mine and noticed all your offerings and thinking Dude! Eddies got an album here!

We want Eddie, We want Eddie! Ehhh...Die Ehhh....die! the crowd chants. Now back tyo our regularly scheduled programming .... The "Jackson Five Story" Starring the .... Osmond Brothers!


Seriously when do we get some snippits of the completed tracks?!?!?!?

7 songs done, 4 to go. Then to get the thing sent out for the art and duplication, then the Kickstarter will go up hoping for some presale to ease the bite of the duplication costs. Even pressing only 100, I still have to wonder once I give them away to all my friends what I will do with 99 copies of it.....

No snipets. You'll have to wait! (And the suspense builds....)

Danny C, you are about the only one I know who can say he is playing the chit'lin and gumbo circuit and mean it!

Hey Eddie, that's cute! Very funny. But I think you are selling yourself short; you have friends here. Good luck with the project.

matt

LOL Eddie,

You may be correct but just FYI a good bowl of Gumbo goes for about 18.99 these days. Now chit'lin pricing remains stable.

Later dude!

I see your point, but respectfully disagree.

Take football. Does this give the students more employment opportunities than music? How many students end making their living playing football?

Plus football damages the children. I read summaries from the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine convention, and the general consensus is this: Don't let your child play tackle football unless you don't like him.

Why? The helmet protects the skull but not the brain from bouncing around in the skull. The vast majority of football players suffer from concussions, some serious enough to impair the child for life, and most damaging enough to cause the early onset of dementia. Is this the function of the school? Damaging kids? No, but it's profitable.

Other sports are as useless for employment as football, but not as damaging. How many are going to be golf pros, volleyball pros, track & field pros, pro wrestlers, pro baseball players, etc.

And literature - what does learning Shakespeare do for employment possibilities? It does enrich some lives though.

Drama? How many are going to make their living on stage or the screen?

There are plenty of other examples.

Not everything in schools today are for making a living. And should they be? Are we simply training workers? Wage slaves? Or are we also supposed to also be enriching the lives of humans in school?

Plus it's been proven that learning music improves math aptitude, especially if taught early enough. And in the early days when computer companies couldn't find enough programmers, they hired musicians because learning to read music makes learning computer programming much easier.

I think they should drop sports and give music education instead.

I'm sure many will disagree.

Insights and incites by Notes

No argument from me Notes. I tend to agree with you

Sports programs provide cash. Nuff said.
If music programs generated revenue, they wouldn't be discontinued.

"I Will Play For Gumbo"

I don't smoke, I don't shoot smack
But I got a spicy monkey ridin' on my back.
Don't eat beignets, too much sugar and dough,
But I will play for gumbo
Yes, I will play for gumbo

It started at my Grandma's kitchen by the sea,
She warned me when she told me "son the first one's free"
It hit me like a rock or some Taikwondo,
Cause I will play for gumbo
Oh yea, I will play for gumbo.

[Chorus:]
A piece of French bread
With which to wipe my bowl,
Good for the body.
Good for the soul.
It's a little like religion
And a lot like sex.
You should never know
When you're gonna get it next.
At midnight in the quarter or noon in Thibadeaux
I will play for gumbo
Yes, I will play for gumbo.

I'm not talkin' quesadillas or a dozen Krispy Kremes,
Or a pound of caviar that's a rich man's dream.
No banana split or fillet of pompano.
No, I will play for gumbo,
Yeah, I will play for gumbo

[Chorus]

Maybe it's the sausage or those pretty pink shrimp
Or that popcorn rice that makes me blow up like a blimp.
Maybe it's that voodoo from Marie Leveaux,
But I will play for gumbo
Yeah, I will play for gumbo

The sauce boss does his cookin' on the stage,
Stirrin' and a singing for his nightly wage.
Sweating and frettin' from his head to his toe,
Playin' and swayin' with the gumbo
Prayin' and buffetin' with the gumbo

[Chorus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbt1RtXNDsQ

Nope, strongly disagree. Did you read the bio and look at the course of the guy at Berklee? The name of the course is Using A Turntable As A Musical Instrument". Now I know just because a college professor says so doesn't make it so but still, this isn't the first time I've seen courses like this being offered. And this isn't something new, these courses have been around for years.

Plus (I'm making an assumption here, could be wrong) you haven't spent any meaningful time watching detailed demo vids about how to create a good DJ set. It's eye opening. I can't stand the music and you probably can't stand it either but force yourself to watch some of these and you'll grudgingly have to admit these guys are some kind of musicians. You have to spend the time, get into it, get some understanding of it before you can simply say what you said.

People on this forum keep thinking of the old "sock hop" scenario when it comes to DJ's. All they do is simply play records and make a few comments. No, no and NO. That's not all the best ones are doing. They're spending tons of time creating their own tracks at home first (sound familiar?), they get tracks given to them from established artists and they use software and hardware to manipulate them in ways you or I would never think of. They're creating something brand new from scratch live in front of a crowd. Isn't that called jazz? Not our jazz to be sure, but it's the same principle.

Bob

I actually like that music and have a lot of respect for the really talented DJs who can work the crowd into a frenzy.

Different genre, different audience, different world (and it isn't mine)

From here out all things that go wrong are Pat Marr's fault! Life abhors a vacuum.

What do you think about the Blue Man Group? They play pieces of PVC tubing and other such things. If a musician is one who plays an instrument, by that definition they are not musicians. Again, goes to my point, they are entertainers rather than musicians.

Robh,

This one has been on my playlist for a while, I love it.

Later,

I agree with Eddie.

A turntable isn't a musical instrument. There's no shame in being an entertainer, so its not a put down to call them that. As far as the Dj's who do play musical instruments, when they're playing actual musical instruments, they're being musicians. When they're messing with their turntables, they're being entertainers.

Based on today's appetite, they'll probably get more bookings as DJ's.

I have no problem whatsoever thinking of myself as an entertainer...

until people start pointing out that clowns are entertainers

That's how I see it....pretty simple to me.
DJ's are entertainers mixing up what others have written for a specific venue/crowd.
A turntable does not qualify as a musical instrument from my perspective.
I see it as a music medium....a method to convey what musicians have actually recorded.

EDIT: Based on some opinions that means radio DJ's are musicians too?....I don't think so.

Could it be said they're in a sort of derivative genre?
I don't know....it's early and I need more coffee.

Lots of various opinions without a doubt.

Feliz Viernes to all....

OK, I've taken your advice and watched some very creative DJs, but IMO the turntable is not a musical instrument and they are not musicians. They are entertainers though.

Rappers who don't sing are not singers either.

We have to be careful with our language. New things need new terms, or the language loses it's meaning.

Example: Awesome used to be reserved for things that were truly awe inspiring. Now I hear people saying, "Your new shoelaces are awesome."

Insights and incites by Notes

Not to mention cra-cra adorbs.....

Extremely well articulated, Bob. 100%

What really matters is what does the audience think. We've all said that for years, we play for the audience and if they want to hear Marguerittaville or the Chicken Dance I'll do it even though I hate it if that's what the gig calls for.

Well, all you have to do is listen to or watch some of the shows concerning modern music and they all refer to these people as musicians. It's definitely part of the language now, all these DJ's, EDM types, and other people doing these shows are referred to as musicians. To me that's the end of the story. For us as old timers discussing amongst ourselves oh no they're not, is nice but completely irrelevant.

That train has left the station, the people who count say they're musicians so they're musicians. Like you just said Notes, the language changes. We're going to be the Lone Stranger standing at the rim of the Grand Canyon screaming into the void all by ourselves "No they're not, dammit!!"

Bob

I just watched a couple of avicii live videos and I can not believe how wild the crowd goes. It really is just a big event to drive the crowd to ecstasy.

I like the song/video "Wake Me Up" and I am trying to be "hip" (ha, ha), but I just don't get the crowds going that nuts over recorded music being mastered/DJ'd by one person. Now if I was trying to score drugs and pick up women, I can tell that is the place to be!

“they all refer to these people as musicians...”

"They" could just as well refer to these people as ducks. It still wouldn't make them ducks.

“...It's definitely part of the language now ...”

No, actually it is colloquial, not really part of the language.

“the people who count say they're musicians so they're musicians...”

Just who are 'the people who count'? Some Millennial cretins writing blogs from their mom's basement?

You're free to define it any way you choose, Bob. I just disagree.


Regards,

Bob

I where the "entertainer" badge with honor when ever it is used to describe me or my shows/sets.

Later,

It's part of the language now? Not if you look in the dictionary.

And when you abuse the language like that, you hinder communication.

My previous example of "Awesome". If your new shoe laces are "awesome" what word will you use if you see something really awe inspiring?

If you do see something truly awesome and use that word, you are comparing the truly awesome to shoe laces.

Example: So if you see a guitarist play the entire 7th symphony from Shostakovitch on an acoustic guitar without missing or leaving out a note, and you say, "Man, that was awesome" you are saying that was just as good as a pair of shoe laces.

A DJ is a DJ, a musician is a musician. If we call the DJ a musician, pretty soon anyone who plays an mp3 file, or sticks a CD into a changer becomes a musician.

There is a difference between a DJ and a musician. An accomplished musician is someone who plays an instrument that can read sheet music. Stick the music for something as simple as "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" in front of the DJ and the most accomplished DJ in the world can not play it unless he buys a recording that someone else has played.

So if we call DJs musicians, how do we differentiate between the person who cannot play "On Top Of Old Smokey" or "Fur Elise" or "Symphony #9: From The New World" or "Louie Louie"?????????

No, calling DJ's musicians is as wrong as calling a musician a DJ. There is a difference and it abuses the language to call the DJ a musician.

I know language evolves, and I'm certainly not opposed to new words and the growth of language. What I am against is the kind of abuse that hinders communication.

Aspirin reduces muscle pain. So does ibuprofen. If you call them both aspirin, and someone has a fatal allergy to ibuprofen, how does that person choose the product that will save his/her life from the product that will get rid of his/her aching biceps?

No, a DJ is not a musician. A DJ is someone who plays recordings and may accompany them with sounds from his/her equipment.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Insights and incites by Notes

Agree 100% with you Bob! At the end of the day those DJs you described are getting good paying gigs and delighting their audiences. They could care less whether folks in a forum dedicated to computer-generated backing tracks think they are musicians or not! I personally see a lot of similarities in people here using backing tracks to make "music" and a DJ using CDs to make "music"!

Just because they are making a good living competing with musicians doesn't make them musicians.

Calling a DJ a musician is like calling a collage artist a painter. They both create visual art, but use different tools and methods to produce different kinds of visual art.

But as you mentioned, they don't care what we call them.

Notes

I think that is a very clarifying observation Notes.

The general category is ENTERTAINMENT. Within that category various groups compete in different ways for market share. There are all kinds of entertainers (yes, even clowns)... but the type of entertainers that compete directly with musicians for the same gigs are DJs, karaoke operators, and in some cases standup comedians.

Depending on one's definition of a musician, open mic could fit just about anywhere, since the skill level is all over the place at open mics I've been to.

My freakin' shoelaces are awesome! lets get that straight now! Shoes are very comfortable too. hhmmm they might be awesome as well?!?!?

Well my shoelaces are awesomer (or is that more awesome)!?!?!

Wait... what....

PAID???

I am supposed to get PAID?????

All these years.....

The gig we've had for 7 years now just gave us a raise. We didn't ask for it, but we are building the business and the owners wanted to show their appreciation.

It's outdoors, on a deck, over a salt-water lagoon. We now ask people to bring lawn chairs because there aren't enough seats on the deck for everyone, and the overflow sits out on the 'beach' at the end of the deck.

The owners know that the way we treat the gig is to make all decisions as if we were the owners and were collecting the revenue. In other words, what's good for the business that hires us is good for us.

Example. A group of bicycle riders that ride from Cocoa to Key West passed us by about 5 years ago. They liked us so they make sure to schedule their trip so they could stop on our day for lunch (we do Tuesdays). They had a tail wind yesterday and got there early. So we started a half hour early.

We also skip breaks and if the crowd stays late, we play late. We recognize regular customers and play their requests without them having to ask. We tell stories on the mic, have running gags, and talk with the audience. We have a personal relationship with the regular audience members, know many by name, know things about their life and ask about them, and generally treat them as if they were friends and we were all at a cocktail party. It's how we compete with DJs and KJs.

Here's how the musicians should think about the bars and restaurants that hire them: What is good for the establishment is good for us, and we will do everything we can in the capacity of entertainers to make money for the club - that includes keeping customers happy so they want to stay a little longer and come back again.

Insights and incites by Notes
Insights and incites by Notes

You want to come to Cleveland and play an outdoor lunch gig?

It is 3 degrees as I type this.....

That is so cool Notes, good for you buddy. Around here I keep seeing stories like this one:

http://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/2015/01/la-studio-musicians-feeling-the-strain-of-runaway-recordings.html

You could consider this simply an "inside baseball" thing but for the fact it just shows there are that many more great players running around town looking for gigs and whatever bars and restaurants are left using live music don't have to pay squat.

The one thing in this article that really shocked me is the comment about Nashville songwriters. Wow, down 80%. Damn, I had no idea. This goes with articles I've seen about the decline in the quality of country music, how it's all the same drivel over and over and over. For that stuff they only need two writers, one to relieve the other in case one gets sick.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for posting that article, even though it is depressing as hell for working musicians to read.

It’s a shame that we now have more truly talented musicians than ever before, and no place for them to play. For those who wish to make a living playing or recording live tracks or performing for a live audience , the future is bleak.

For musicians who just want to play for fun and they have NO hopes or desires of making a living doing it, they should have much less trouble finding competent musicians to jam with. The wealth of instructional material available today is in large part responsible for that.

The lack of paying opportunities for these musicians is due to the dumbing down of music consumers and the advancement of computer software to mimic live musicians. Music consumers are more ignorant now than they’ve ever been.

That’s why “purists” like me recoil at the thought of calling DJ’s musicians! Doing that only adds to the ignorance of the general public, especially if it’s a real musician endorsing the use of the incorrect terminology.

Words mean something, … or at least they used to……………

Basically, I agree... but it's worth noting that language evolves to meet new perceptions of reality.

Notice I say PERCEPTION of reality... all that's required for the dictionary definition to change is for most people to perceive a DJ as a musician.

way to go Notes!

Instead of complaining about what isn't like it used to be, you're busy making your own reality, and benefiting form your own good decisions.

Sometimes it’s wise for people knowledgeable in a particular subject to override perceptions or even dictionary definitions and speak out in order to educate others.

Take for example the Meriam-Webster dictionary definition of a luthier:



I could go to a website like “Build Your Own Guitar” and order any number of kits and easily build my own electric guitar inside of a week. Shucks, … if I were willing to fork over $525.00 for a USA Made Natural High Gloss Tele Kit – Flag, I could make an instrument that would rival the USA Fender Telecasters being sold at music retailers all over the country.

http://www.byoguitar.com/Guitar_Kits/Guitar-Kits.aspx

I've been working on guitars as long as I've owned guitars, and that's been about 45 years or more. I’ve disassembled, cleaned up and reassembled several electrics over the years. I’m also pretty good at setting up guitars for proper intonation, string height, neck adjustment, sanding frets, filing nut slots, etc. Did I mention that I'm also a pretty good carpenter?

So if I purchased one of those kits and built a guitar, then I would fit the textbook definition of a “luthier”. Especially since I could easily build an instrument worthy of the components supplied in any of the kits.

But only a fool or someone who’s totally ignorant of what the term actually means would call me a “luthier”.

That same principle applies to anyone who would call a DJ a “musician”.

I get it Bob.

But at this point in the discussion I'm going to point out that what you're doing here is a well-known fallacious argument in which one person in the discussion subtly shifts the focus from the issue being discussed to the other person's credibility.

It works on people who are afraid of being perceived as a fool... in much the same way as kicking dogs can keep them cowed... but it's not good practice.

It's a fallacious argument because a fool could argue that the earth is round. The veracity of the statement has nothing to do with whether or not the person is a fool, and therefore that information proves nothing, except contempt for the person whose opinion differs.

I have been gigging since I was in Junior High School.

There are fewer gigs around for live musicians than there used to be. Why? It isn't as profitable for a club owner to hire bands. But why is that?

1. Live music isn't as important to young people as it used to be. DJs have the single bar and wedding market pretty much sewed up.
   
2. DUI/DWI laws - when people go out to hear live music, they don't drink as much as they used to. Of course that saves lives, but it does hurt the profit margin.
   
3. Higher taxes on drinks served over the bar - this was an attempt to get people to drink less but all it also resulted in less profit per drink as the bar owners ate much of the increase themselves
   
4. Open mic and other people who are willing to play for free in for-profit establishments
   
5. Karaoke Jocks who don't play an instrument but download K tracks and sing along, often undercutting the prices of live musicians as they have less investment and years of training
   
6. Sports Bars - almost free entertainment for the club, and people like them
   
7. And the biggie - HDTV with 7.1 surround sound, hundreds of channels, on-demand content, and a Cable/Satellite bill that can easily run over $300/month (there goes the entertainment budget right there)
   What can we do?

Take a lesson from evolution. It's not the strongest that survive, it's the ones who can adapt to the changing environment.

When psychedelic music was the rage and nobody wanted to hear saxophones, I played bass.

In the 1980s when other musicians were saying, "You are going to put musicians out of work with those computers." I said, "I'm putting two musicians to work with these computers." We don't play in venues that ever hired large bands, we just had a leg up on other duos and got hired.

When we did cruise ships, we noticed the Disco next door didn't take breaks, so we skipped our breaks. We ended up breaking all-time revenue records for the lounge we were playing in, and our 3 week contract lasted 3 years and we could have stayed longer, but we missed land things and didn't renew. Plus we got a double sized crew cabin with a porthole - a valued perk on a ship.

When the MADD people and DJs started to erode the night club business, I moved into the yacht club, country club, retirement community and private party end of the business, because that's where the work was around here.

We don't do set lists, but instead call songs on the fly by feeling the pulse of the audience and calling what we think will be most appropriate.

When the dance floor is full we go from song to song with no dead time - just like a DJ.

If the particular audience needs mic banter, we provide that between songs.

We learn songs that are requested and I sequence them myself. Buying Karaoke tracks is not for me. Recorded music and live music need a different balance of instruments and different energy level - especially at moderate volume levels. Plus I can extend them to a nice 4 minutes for the dancers, play my own solos (I love improvising), put it in our best key if needed, put a real ending on it, re-arrange it so the hook comes quicker (for better audience recognition), change the tempo a bit, rush the B parts a bit if needed, and end up with something I think sounds better than a K track.

Plus I'm blessed to have a great singer for a partner (I'm good but not great - but I am a great sax player - took first sax in the all-state band each year I was in school). I also learned wind synth, flute, guitar, bass, drums, and key synth so that I can add variety to the gig. We practice hard and do the best job we are capable of, and we are capable. There are better musicians out there and there are worse, but we hold our own quite well. Plus we play to the audience, no Coltrane licks, we don't refuse to learn and play requested songs as long as we can cover them well, and we have a good time performing - and that's contagious.


So what to do? Assess your local situation. Who is listening to live music? What kind of music are they hiring? How can you be better than the people already playing that market?

Adaption to the changing market and working hard to do the best job you can is the key. We may belong to the union (or not) but in reality, most musicians are self-employed businesses and we are in friendly competition with our peers. Don't cheat them, out-compete them honestly.

Insights and incites by Notes

That was definitely a poor choice of words on my part. I wasn’t trying to show contempt for anyone, especially since I don’t have any.

I was trying to exemplify that even if I met the requirements for the textbook definition of a luthier, I still wouldn’t actually be one.

My bad.

However...probably a large majority of the population, 60,70 maybe 80% (90%? ah, I'm trying to be generous) are fools and ignorant when it comes to this subject and a population base that large gets to make the rules as far as cultural perception goes.

Again, my posts here are not agreeing with this definition or advocating it, I'm simply saying it is what it is.

What we're talking about is gradually getting pushed into higher and higher levels of academia and it's becoming less and less prevalent in the general population. Your point is a very good one, how many people including casual musicians would know the difference between you and a luthier? "Good ole Bob over there has been building guitars since the 60's, he's a heckuva of a whattyacallit, a luthier".

This same subject was discussed on a piano forum talking about how many piano stores are closing and the extreme slowdown in new piano sales. Same principle. Pianos require expert craftsmanship too and with the advent of cheap little keyboards being sold everywhere nobody is willing to pay that price so it too is becoming a very exclusive art only for the very rich. People think their kid who's playing a $100 Casio is a "musician" or keyboard player or worse yet he's playing a $100 controller through his iPad playing all sorts of crappy screeching, thumping stuff and mommy walks around thinking her kid is making music.

This stuff is beyond huge in the marketplace, just Google some iPad interfaces and synths and then listen to the demos. This is the generation of "musicians" that's coming up behind us.

Bob

Well you're the same kind of a luthier as I was a musician as a DJ in the 1980s.

Back then my job in a discotheque was spinning records. I announced them and played them as they came of the shelf; just like a narrow gauge Wolfman Jack. (I don't know if this translation of the German idiom "Schmalspur-" fits in the English language.)

Some of today's DJs are musicians, they create something new, using premanufactured tracks, they combine and mix them in a new way (actually more like a conductor of an orchestra). They are not the DJ hired for a wedding party. At such a party almost only danceable and well known songs are required. Just what a cover band would play, nothing what the general public or age group doesn't know.

If you take components that were not meant to be put together and create an instrument with them you're much closer to the trade of a luthier than if you bought a kit from IKEA that you just assemble.

E.g.: There are always two types of painters, both types know colors and how to swing a brush. One creates walls painted white with a dab o yellow, the other pictures that are high in demand. One is an artisan the other an artist.

I'm working on a weaponized virus that only targets DJs. Will keep you posted.

Funny. I was going to come up with something funny as a reply like "Yeah, the WestNileDJWhooodie virus" or something so I just did a quick search for anything funny that might fit. Instead I happened on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_Junkies

Never heard of them yet they're big international stars who've been around for 22 years. 22 years! Time flies. Remember how we knew all that about our favorite bands as in "Yeah, man I saw the Allmans like 20 years ago in Chicago, they were great". This talks about the International Turntabilist Federation. The what? In the first sentence there's a reference to "Turntableism". I clicked on that link and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turntablism

Here is your Wikipedia definition of the difference between an old style DJ and the new guys. New. Right. 20 years isn't new.

Like I said earlier, there's a whole other world out there we've never heard of and it's not even new either, it's been around for a long time right under our noses but because our noses thinks this stuff stinks we've paid zero attention to it.

Bob

"Like I said earlier, there's a whole other world out there we've never heard of and it's not even new either, it's been around for a long time right under our noses but because our noses thinks this stuff stinks we've paid zero attention to it."




Your nose might have missed it, Bob, but not all of us have.