I have been doing a lot of cover versions and when communicating with other forum members I have got the impression that many members would like to post covers too ? Naturally, these covers would require a strong presence of biab precicely as the public ones i.e. our own compositions !
To avoid running into copyright problems many other forums have separated the public access to files from files only accessible to members (private)! I suggest that the matter could be worth a closer look ?
There's no problems with posting copyrighted cover songs here as long as it's done legally. That simply means you have purchased the license for posting it on the internet for others to listen.
At least one PG user here does that. They post the license number in the OP so everyone knows it's legal.
Any other posting of a copyrighted song is illegal....according to the current copyright laws. Doesn't matter how it's done.
Most other forums have notices NOT to post copyrighted covers, but the administration of those sites either doesn't check or looks the other way. That still doesn't make it right. No matter what the people may thing...."MUSIC IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE"..... copyright law says differently.
You raise an interesting point, but maybe in a different way than I'm about to take it. Herb mentioned one way in which the copyright law can be satisfied. But there are other ways too.
The live streaming sites like StreetJelly pay for a license that allows one time live streams (ie, can't be recorded to allow additional broadcasts)
This type of license is actually fairly inexpensive compared to the other ways to get licensed. A whole website can be licensed for a year for about the same cost as one person can get licensed to post his own songs.
I would LOVE for PGMusic to have live streaming (Like StreetJelly) as part of their site. The cost of licensing would be insignificant compared to the sales it would generate. Especially if you had to be a registered user of a PGMusic product to participate.
If they added tipping, it would actually turn into a profit center, because they'd get a cut of every tip. It would more than offset the cost of the license.
I honestly think that adding a way to show what BIAB can do in the realm of cover songs would REALLY open a floodgate of interest in the product.
the problem with trying to circumvent copyright law by providing a company sanctioned private trading archive is that it would be too easy for somebody who works for ASCAP or BMI to join and document it. The key problem is the company sponsoring such a thing. It would introduce a lot of liability while offering no reward.
However, you as an individual could probably privately contact other users all day long and ask for their cover songs. But in the final analysis, you'd never know if the buddy you've been chatting with for years works for BMI, and has just been waiting to see if the forum serves as a conduit for illegal trading of copyrighted material.
Bottom line, no matter how we might try to circumvent the law, it has potential to hurt PGMusic, and I don't think any of us want to do that.
However, going back to the previous post... given the low annual cost of live streaming licenses, I think there is a legal way for PGMusic to tap into the enormous public interest that would be generated by live streaming cover songs, without generating any legal liability at the same time.
I think such licenses are in the $200 to $300 year range. Its based on a lot of things like audience size, so its hard to get an exact price without those specifics.
Pat, I believe you are correct to be concerned. The way to do this is for PG Music to obtain the correct license(s) and set it up on their end. Unless and until they do, I believe we should follow PG Music's stated guidelines in their User Showcase Forum: "The songs must be originals, no copyrighted or "cover" songs. You must have all of the rights to the songs." No one but the composer and publisher could have "all" the rights unless the composer and publisher legally transferred them.
Disclosure: I'm a BMI artist. I get royalties from various sources when my songs are played. It isn't much, but it's something and it follows the procedures negotiated based on existing copyright laws.
I am given to understand that motagator.com, of which I am an active participant, pays all fees and royalties on any covers that get played so it is the site of choice for my covers.
All of my originals that I own exclusive rights are uploaded to SoundClick.
If there really is a way of posting BIAB cover songs then I am amazed that PG aren't jumping right on it. With the greatest of respect to all the seasoned users who write their own songs and seem a bit lukewarm about the idea of posting covers, using BIAB to create covers is what BIAB is really all about for the majority of users - especially newcomers. If BIAB could point potential customers towards online cover songs recorded in BIAB it would be far more impressive than having to demonstrate some of the cheesy songs that BIAB generates. It would also be far more useful to compare how others have used BIAB creatively to accompany well known covers instead of listening to unfamiliar songs.
Come on Peter - a few hundred dollars is nothing compared with the interest that it would generate for PG
BB is a great program for doing covers. I've used it to do a few but they are not on the net..... at least not where anyone can find them.
I have an absolutely amazing cover of Mott the Hoople's All the Young Dudes along with CCR's Have you ever seen the Rain? and Neil Young's Rocking the free world......
But, for now...... you'll just have to take my word for that....
If there really is a way of posting BIAB cover songs then I am amazed that PG aren't jumping right on it. With the greatest of respect to all the seasoned users who write their own songs and seem a bit lukewarm about the idea of posting covers, using BIAB to create covers is what BIAB is really all about for the majority of users - especially newcomers. If BIAB could point potential customers towards online cover songs recorded in BIAB it would be far more impressive than having to demonstrate some of the cheesy songs that BIAB generates. It would also be far more useful to compare how others have used BIAB creatively to accompany well known covers instead of listening to unfamiliar songs.
Come on Peter - a few hundred dollars is nothing compared with the interest that it would generate for PG
Tony
Just to ensure that we're all on the same page, The relatively inexpensive license I mentioned above would not work for an archive like the user showcase where songs are stored online and can be played over and over again.
The type of license I'm talking about is used for live performances that are broadcast via the performers web cam and can only be seen once during the live broadcast, (they aren't stored for future playback.)
No doubt there are also licenses available for stored archives that get replayed many times, but those licenses would cost more. I have no idea how much more. Might be a little, might be a lot. All of the internet radio stations like Pandora that play cover songs are certainly licensed, so there must be a vehicle in place for that application too.
I agree with you that there are probably more people using BIAB to create cover songs than there are writing original songs... I'm one of them. It does seem a little bit odd to find myself thinking that I don't fit in here anymore because of the focus on song writing, which doesn't interest me. Finding a way to engage the cover song oriented customers without simultaneously incurring legal liability would be huge, in my opinion.
I think a live streaming application like Street Jelly is the best way to draw in the cover song crowd, because they tend to be performers who are accustomed to getting on stage in front of an audience. And, that type of license is probably the least expensive of all.
I agree with you that there are probably more people using BIAB to create cover songs than there are writing original songs... I'm one of them. It does seem a little bit odd to find myself thinking that I don't fit in here anymore because of the focus on song writing, which doesn't interest me. Finding a way to engage the cover song oriented customers without simultaneously incurring legal liability would be huge, in my opinion.
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I have a repertoire of 650 cover songs and every time I create a new one I spend a long time mixing styles trying to get it to sound right. Oh how I wish I could hear how other people have tackled the same songs and even share our BIAB song files.
BTW, since I cannot memorize music, I have copied the sheet music for every one of those 650 and keep them binders with plastic sleeves so I can play my keyboard live by flipping the pages. Every measure on every page is numbered to correspond with the measures in BIAB so that I can keep track of repeats etc. It's a labor of love!
I have a repertoire of 650 cover songs and every time I create a new one I spend a long time mixing styles trying to get it to sound right. Oh how I wish I could hear how other people have tackled the same songs and even share our BIAB song files.
Tony
Tony, are you aware of the BIAB YAHOO GROUP? They have several download directories where people post cover songs they've created. They aren't affiliated with PGMusic, they are more a labor of love built around the contributions made by many.
The files you'll find there are supposed to have had the lyrics and melody removed to avoid copyright infringement.
If you want to share files, that's probably the place to look first.
Thanks for that idea, and it's good to hear from you again.
They key would be if there is a site that people could use that does pay the royalties.
One option could be YouTube, which does pay royalties
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/youtubes-billion-dollar-payout-provide-new-revenue-for-musicians-20140205 "YouTube doesn't divulge how much it pays performers, songwriters, labels and publishers in advertising revenue, but music-business sources say it ranges from 60 cents to $2 for every 1,000 views. A performer receives royalties every time a YouTube or Vevo user clicks on a video, and a songwriter usually gets money whenever a cover version of a song (as in Baauer's "Harlem Shake" spinoffs early last year) generates enough views to draw advertisements."
Anyway, if people could list sites that do allow cover songs and pay royalties, then we could have a forum here that people could post the info and links to their songs that are hosted on the other site.
This is the same as the User Showcase Forum - where the songs are not hosted on pgmusic.com, they are hosted on the User's (Composers) site.
What do people think about YouTube for this? ie) you can post links to your songs that are on YouTube in a pg music forum, and describe what RealTracks are used etc. You would have your song on YouTube, so you'd need to comply with their terms of service.
Failing that, what other sites are there that pay royalties to the songs' composers?
www.motagator.com is owned by fellow BIABer Paul Asher of Nottingham, England. My understanding is that Paul (Motagator) pays all royalties and fees on covers posted there.
It might be prudent to discuss these points directly with Paul at the email address posted on the site.
Membership is free including some storage space for member's music. Membership also includes a Storefront for selling one's music and memorabilia.
(I will PM Paul's private email address - if necessary)
Thanks for taking an interest here, Peter, because I'm sure we all want to do the right thing by PG Music.
You asked about sites including YouTube. I have posted very little on YouTube (have maybe 12,000 hits total), but some of my friends have been posting original songs for years and have many tens of thousands of views, yet no one I know has ever received a royalty from YouTube plays. Of course, we are just obscure jazz and folk musicians, but I do receive regular royalties from Pandora, Spotify, iTunes, Music Choice TV, and others.
These are for regular CD tracks, though, where I am both the primary artist and the publisher. I also have many compositions (written with BIAB) recorded on other artists' CDs, but I receive nothing from that other than the original mechanical license payments. It seems the online services can only deal with artist and publisher. So, for those wanting to post covers, I don't have an answer.
I like the idea of a forum with links to YouTube covers. And originals. A YouTube forum. Seems straight forward enough. (Didn't realize covers were ok on YouTube). Cheers.
The only problem with YT is creating the video. Most of us just take the audio out from the computer and that's it but for YT you need a vid. That's a whole other level of complexity like, the setting for the vid, who's manning the camera, figuring out the software, syncing the video from the camera to the audio from the computer, all that mundane crap.
Plus of course I can't play along to my Biab tracks sitting in my chair in my bathrobe without a care as to how everything looks...now it's like a public performance gig, gotta put on my rockstar outfit, hide the wall art I don't want going out to the world...wonder when the Bowl is available for a shoot?
Back to Earth, one simple way to show off Biab is to play along with the backing tracks but no vocals or instrumental melody. Just don't sing, play the tracks, take some solos. If it's an instrumental piece just play the solo sections or rewrite the melody a bit. It's not that hard. Instead of posting the correct name of the tune like Brown Sugar or Summertime call it Green Sugar or Summertree or something. We'll figure it out.
If you post a link to Soundcloud where you have Arkansas Motel posted but it somehow sounds something like Hotel California, how's that going to impact PGM?
FWIW, Bob, lots of music is posted on YouTube with a single picture that never changes for the whole song. Not everybody goes to the trouble of making a full-blown video.
I like this idea, but I've been trying in vain to find YouTube's official statement that it's OK to post covers. Haven't found it yet. If anybody else has, please let us know where to find it.
I think the forum for youtube links covers idea is great. You don't need a fancy video, just stick a picture up or just put you name and the song you're doing.
Pat, there's not going to be an "official" statement from YT saying it's okay because technically copyright law requires a sync license in addition to the streaming license. However, the millions of people posting covers continue to just do it. Keep in mind most of the YT "stars" got there by doing covers.
From my research, one of two things will happen when you post a cover. You'll get a notice which you will acknowledge that you don't own the rights and an ad will appear on your video. When anyone clicks on that ad the proceeds will go to the copyright holder. You can find out more about how to monetize eligible cover songs where you get a percentage in YT help. If the copyright holder objects to covers the video will be taken down.
I've read most of the players in the music business now realize there's more money to be made on YT from placing ads on covers. Today many publishers/labels actively promote covers of their artists' songs because more covers means more income from more ads. So they use content ID to be sure all are monetized for them. Plus covers can increase interest and sales of the original song.
My opinion for the majority of BIAB users who want to showcase their covers is to put it on Youtube and don't worry about it. Do a YT search - most songs are already covered by somebody.
For those who watch and listen to cover songs on YT - please do NOT use an ad blocker (you don't have to click on the ad unless it's something that interests you) and also if a video ad comes on before the song - watch one once in a while like you would if a TV commercial came on so that this new ecosystem for the music business continues for everyone.
but some of my friends have been posting original songs for years and have many tens of thousands of views, yet no one I know has ever received a royalty from YouTube plays.
Hi Matt It is quite a business setting up Youtube to receive income from your own original songs and many artists don't bother. Plus you have to have several thousand views for it even to tip the scales. You have to have a google adsense account linked to your youtube channel (BEFORE you get the tens of thousand views) and they will only pay you out when your balance is over $100, so it is quite hard to get there with original tunes.
I think what we are talking about here is cover songs rather than original music. Right now you or I can upload a cover song to Youtube. It will ask you if this is "you singing someone else's song" to which you obviously answer yes. It then places a adverts on the video and the revenue goes to the songwriters (and not to you).
So, in my opinion, Youtube is the perfect vehicle to start a showcase of cover songs. I am all for it Peter.
Edited to add: Sorry Josie, I didn't see your post before posting this. I think we are on the same page here.
My intention was never to propose anytihing that would be illegal, just to propose that it could be worth exploring the matter more deeply ! Noone would accept any illegal solution I´m sure !
You can make a video easily with NO CAMERA using Windows Movie Maker which is included in most Windows OS packages.... I actually use it for the video's I do.... nothing fancy, but it works.
As far as YouTube and copyrights..... I see lots of videos that, when I click the link, a notice comes up that the video has been removed for copyright violation. To me that indicates that YouTube doesn't pay copyright royalties and the owner has sent them a cease and desist on the violation.
BTW: we have a YOUTUBE forum already..... in the General discussion area, BEST OF YOUTUBE.
It looks like we're still on square one... it's up to the artist doing the cover to get the proper license.
Herb, I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that this is what would happen if I tried to upload a cover tune and answered "no" to the question "is this you singing a song written by someone else" question. And then I tried to monetize the video on my channel. In otherwords if I was trying to get all the YouTube revenue singing somebody else's song.
As per Josie, post them on youtube and provide a link (with PG Music's approval of course here). There are thousands of covers on youtube, heck I even have a few and no knocks on the door yet. If I get a knock on the door and they scare me, off they come. But they must scare me 1st. LOL
I haven't really played with it, but doesn't BIAB have a "save as video" feature now. The features list says:
Quote:
Save as Video. Now you can save your Band-in-a-Box song composition as a video, that you can upload to YouTube or work with in video programs. Just press the [Save as] button and choose 'Save as Video'. The 'video' portion is the chordsheet in Band-in-a-Box that shows the chords and a highlighted bar moving as the song plays. Song title and song info displays at the top of the window. For example, you can make a backing track for a cool chord progression, and upload it to YouTube for others to play along to; do a visual transpose and upload a second version for Bb tenor sax players.
I would think that even if you did your song in another DAW, you could load it back into BIAB on the audio channel, mute any BIAB accompaniment, and then "Save as Video".
FWIW, Bob, lots of music is posted on YouTube with a single picture that never changes for the whole song. Not everybody goes to the trouble of making a full-blown video.
Understood but if you're not going to post a vid then why bother with YT, just put it on Soundcloud. Someone posted an article either here or on another forum that SC has signed a deal with the same company that monetizes the YT posts.
FWIW, Bob, lots of music is posted on YouTube with a single picture that never changes for the whole song. Not everybody goes to the trouble of making a full-blown video.
Understood but if you're not going to post a vid then why bother with YT, just put it on Soundcloud. Someone posted an article either here or on another forum that SC has signed a deal with the same company that monetizes the YT posts.
Bob
Bob, Soundcloud's information states that only original music will be accepted. I just looked it up so if what you said is true it is not posted on their site yet.
YouTube doesn't, to my knowledge, insist on original music but they are quick to act on a complaint of copyright infringement. I have some experience with this process, having assisted in taking down a scratch studio track that was only part of the final production.
FWIW, Bob, lots of music is posted on YouTube with a single picture that never changes for the whole song. Not everybody goes to the trouble of making a full-blown video.
Understood but if you're not going to post a vid then why bother with YT, just put it on Soundcloud. Someone posted an article either here or on another forum that SC has signed a deal with the same company that monetizes the YT posts.
Bob
Bob, Soundcloud's information states that only original music will be accepted. I just looked it up so if what you said is true it is not posted on their site yet.
Also, because the topic of discussion is that of identifying ONE place where we could post our covers without incurring any legal liability for ourselves or for PGMusic. (At least, I *THINK* that's the topic.)
Given the "iffy" nature of all of the information I've found, I'm still not comfortable with the suggestion that "we probably won't prosecute you." Unless somebody puts it in writing that it's OK to post covers, the agreement we click on when we upload anything says that we understand the law and we accept the consequences of our actions.
Having spent the past couple of days reading thru the FAQs on various sites, I haven't seen ANYTHING that remotely resembles a formal approval to post cover songs. And I don't think we ever will. To do so would be the equivalent of allowing a public right of way across private property. It implies a surrender of ownership rights if left unchallenged.
Not a cover, but I did use BIAB's Save-as-video feature to create this original song video. It's not finalized and this is just an instrumental of a song my buddy Chris and I did. It's a Christmas song, but could be sung anytime. You can guess who the extraordinary man is...
To save a BIAB song as video, you have to use the toolbar "Save As" button and it will be the last item. You have a few options once it comes up.
In 2002 we released a CD that featured our great friend Randy Howard on multiple instruments. Randy, who passed away at 39, was Grammy nominated, won the US fiddle championship 12 times and played on many Nashville "stars'" recording projects. After his death we put together the CD that consisted of songs the three of us had recorded over the years. And we stated from the get go that all proceeds would go to cancer research in honor of Randy.
Because of his stature we got good reviews and sold quite a few CDs...mostly through CD Baby and later iTunes. We bought mechanical licenses for all of the cover tunes of course (a couple of artists gave us the rights gratis - one from a big publishing company). BUT within two years ALL of the songs had been ripped off and were available in many places for free download. Janice and I didn't have the resources to fight it.
All meaning I've been meticulous about not posting "cover" songs anywhere unless we owned ALL the rights...and, yes, you can own all the rights if the song is in the public domain. And for the PD songs we posted here we've thoroughly researched them because US law differs from the laws in many other countries. Because so many people ignored the notion of "intellectual property" we were no longer able to make contributions in Randy's name from the CD. To this day this has shaped the way I feel about these things. So, if somebody can legally post a cover song on Youtube...that is fine. But I don't think the poster should earn from it, i.e., proceeds should go to the writers and publishers. The poster can revel in the glory of hopefully a lot of listens that may grow them an audience and ultimately earn them some money.
Pardon the rant from the ole curmudgeon. FWIW, etc.
Janice and Bud, that's particularly sad because of your admirable purpose. But two years? My CD was ripped off onto illegal sites within two months. It might have been sooner, but that's when it first showed up from Google Alerts.
Every so often, I play whack-a-mole with them. It's often the same three sites that so many others link to.
Janice and Bud, that's particularly sad because of your admirable purpose. But two years? My CD was ripped off onto illegal sites within two months. It might have been sooner, but that's when it first showed up from Google Alerts.
Every so often, I play whack-a-mole with them. It's often the same three sites that so many others link to.
Thanks Matt. Well things were a bit slower 13 years ago and the rips started pretty soon but as I recall it was two years before you could get the complete CD at a single site. They even included the cover art! Interestingly we still get the very occasional check from CDBaby but it's mostly for Spotify and a few sites I don't even recognize. But the physical CD sales were where we collected the real cash for our donations.
I have posted a lot of cover songs on Soundcloud. There seem to be hundreds of artists doing that. Anything that I did not right, which is only a few songs each, on my solo cd that are actually for sale I have paid the licensing fee to Harry Fox. I don't Cell anything that I have not paid for, but I have recorded songs that I didn't write just for fun.
I'm not exactly sure if that would be problematic but I do know there is something called the fair use rule which I think might apply to us on the PG music site. it states that copyrighted material can be used for discussion or comparison which would be the main reason weed post here, to check each others technique.
Steve, in regard to Fair Use, that is more easily justified in education, just as you mention about discussion and comparison here for the purposes of learning. Fair Use is normally limited to a one-time use, and in the case of books or articles, to an excerpt. I'm not sure how that applies to songs, since as academic dean I never ran into that case, but I would think to be safe the same ideas would apply. When in doubt, you can write to the publisher to get permission for what you plan to do.