Hello guys:)
I have been reading a few forums where people are talking about the use of teleprompters by brand name artists, and there is much debate over weather it is professional to use a teleprompter to remember lyrics and chord changes. Also having a song book on stage is frowned upon by a lot of folks. It looks the opinion is pretty well equal in both camps (both for and against the use of memory aids or any sort of confidence monitors) Some people feel as if it cheats the audience out of a good show to be reading the lyrics while others feel as if it brings a better show to just have the memory jogger handy...I d love to hear how you guys feel about the use of such things. I'll share my opinion: I unashamedly use it all...lyrics and chord changes , backing tracks, effects, you name it. And if I could afford it I would get plastic surgery:)

I'm with you, Jeff. I couldn't remember lyrics when I had a memory!



Regards,

Bob

IMHO.... there's no problem with an artist using a prompter....

It sure beats forgetting a first line in the 3rd verse because you were into the song and got lost in the music...... man that happened to me plenty of times.....

Yeah, no problem. Especially for the big names.... they don't want to forget their own song in front of 30,000 people or on TV.


I say use what you need and can afford.

I concur
I believe that when an artist really gets in to the music or in to the crowd forgetting the words can happen. and this is because of delivering a good show.
btw have you ever seen this gadget: http://www.wolfgangtelemonitor.com/about/ I don't know if I can afford one from them (although they are really nice) I may try my hand at making one and using the ptw lyrics & chord changes along with some tracks live:)

Barbara Streisand was a recent guest on the Tonight Show - first time on late-nite TV in decades.

Jimmy Fallon asked her why she hadn't toured for such a long time.

She gave a concert in Central Park; 150,000 in attendance, and forgot the lyrics to 3 of her songs on her set list.

She didn't tour for 27 years after that!

BTW, Fallon did a great job singing some classics with her.

If an artist has soul and something to say I could care less. Two of our favorites Gregg Allman and Lucinda Williams use notes. Whomever that offends should IMHO chill and enjoy the music.

Paul McCartney uses a prompter. So does Bruce Springsteen.

Whatever it takes to do the job properly

Tools, just like a carpenter needs a hammer, singers sometimes need vocal tuners, and even teleprompters. Just like mixing engineers cut and paste vocals to get the perfect one; whatever it takes to put on a killer show. I don't even have a problem with someone lip syncing if they are under the weather, as you go to the show to see the entertainer in the flesh and the show; otherwise you could just sit at home and listen to the album, no one needs a teleprompter for that LOL.

Use whatever it takes to deliver the best most professional performance.

Later,

The other option.....

Make up words on the spot.... that works better if you forget the words IN a verse as opposed to the first line of the verse.

It beats standing there looking dumb and 90 percent of the audience in a club won't notice, the other 10% will say "What the? .... hey, look at that redhead!" and have another drink.

I was so good at making up words that one patron told me that if they hadn't been paying attention and knew the song, they would never have noticed my ad lib line.


As for the big stars in concert.... the fans are generally singing along so if the artist forgets the words, all they need to do is stand back and point the mic to the audience and encourage the audience to sing...... waaa laaa... instant audience participation.

If you forget the words, do what the pros do ---- mumble

I use words and/or a music chart on a laptop. We have over 550 songs in our 'book'.

The songs we play most often are memorized, the rest are partially memorized so we don't have to keep our nose in the computer for the entire song.

Even the songs that are memorized can fail you from time to time. When you get into the zone and something distracts you (whether it's minor or someone coming up to make a request while you are singing) you can be shocked out of the zone and not really know where you were. Having the words/music in front of you is a good way to get back on track.

I've seen symphony orchestras reading music as well as big jazz bands and no one complains. I've even been in small jazz jams where everyone has "The Real Book" in front of them.

I see nothing wrong with having notes in front of you, as long as your nose isn't buried in the notes to the point where you lose contact with the audience.

But that's just me, YMMV

Insights and incites by Notes

Wow - I used to feel the opposite about all this - but I think I've been convinced to give a try to notes and prompts - it will certainly lower the time it takes me to perform a song !

Folks who expect you to have memorized every word to every song ever written (which implies also knowing all the chords and all the melodies and all the harmonies) are delusional. That doesn't mean you don't strive to memorize songs, you're just not going to know them all. When you go to an author book reading event, for example, you don't expect them to "read" their book from memory (and it's even their own piece of work). Do you expect a preacher to quote all scripture from memory and say their sermon without a single "uh"? Do you only use computer apps written by programmers who have committed every function, procedure, and variable to memory? Must a portrait painter complete the work in one sitting and never refer to the subject being painted? We don't expect that level of perfection any where else, so why do we expect musicians to be able to just" know " the song we requested inside out and by God, they better play it the way I want to hear it?

my take: when you are the one on stage, do what works for YOU. No matter how you do anything, you can't please everybody, so although dissenting opinion should be considered, it should be weighed carefully against other factors of importance.

Stakes are high in any public presentation. If it looks bad to have a visual aid, it looks far worse to make mistakes or stumble for words.

Rational thinking begins with the assumption that there are no perfect solutions, so we opt for the solution that does the least damage for the highest reward.

In my opinion, the damage done in the minds of a small percentage of the audience who thinks that I'm "cheating" if I use charts is not worthy to be compared to the damage that would be done by a performance meltdown if I hit a snag, and got so flustered I couldn't even remember to mumble or use one of the other escape plans mentioned above.

And I'm a meltdown kind of guy....

I also think there's a difference between regular bands and solo acts. If I'm "just" a guitar player, it's reasonable to know all the chords to all the songs in a 3 hour gig. Likewise, someone who is "just" the singer may be able to memorize all the lyrics.

Solo acts, especially if they use BIAB to create backing tracks, aren't limited by the knowledge of other band members, so they are more likely to accumulate a large library of songs... Like Forum members Notes Norton, Danny Campo and 90db... I'd bet they all have a very large pool of songs.

Once you get past a set list of 40 songs, and you are singing all the lyrics, playing all the chords and slamming all the solos... the likelihood of forgetting something begins to escalate exponentially.

That's why I like using a notebook pc to present the songs... it gives the performer visual cues for lyrics and chords as well as offering a playback device and full MIDI control.

I find that for me, even with all that help, its still a challenge to manage all of the special timings, intros, endings etc, and its hard to make notes about stuff like that on a chord sheet.

Multiply that times Notes Norton's 550 songs... all of which need to be played well even if he hasn't played that song in 2 years... and the idea that he is somehow "cheating" begins to look ridiculous.

I have had the distinct pleasure and tremendous opportunity over time to sit in with some jazz groups in small intimate gigs. If I would have pulled out the fake Book it would not have been received well. So I would just Fake it. Maybe times are changin. Just sayin.

different situations suggest different tactics. When dissenting opinion is the majority opinion, I'd go with the majority.

When its a mixed bag of opinions, I'd go with whatever I prefer.

Bottom line, if you HAD pulled out a fake book, what's the worst that could have happened?

When our band was learning new tunes and performing them on stage for the first time or two, I would have a cheat sheet on the floor. It had the first few words in the first sentence of the verse.

Knowing that....I could nail the verses. I glanced at them as I was approaching the point...and that's all I needed.



Speaking of people who didn't need any cheat sheets... I played with one guy and knew a few others who had a mental repertoire consisting of many hundreds of songs. He knew the key the tempo, and the words. Name a song he hadn't played in years and he'd say... Key of D.... and off we'd go and he'd nail the lyrics. I didn't play in his band for long because it was a tuxedo, country club gig kind of band.

And I thought I was doing something when I knew a complete 4 hr show with a few spares......

The bigger problem for a lot of us as we age (include me in this sentiment) is that the teleprompter needs to be on the Jumbotron for us to read it. I see a lot of local artists using their iPad mini clipped to the mic stand and whenever I see it, I ask myself how they can see that small font? If the font is made bigger to see it, you will be flipping screens every 4 bars!!

In my case what stinks is that I need glasses to see up to 3 feet, then I see fairly well after that. Even that is starting to go. It won't be but another few years that I won't be able to drive anymore. I need to move to where I live across the street from a food store, possibly a Walmart or K-Mart type superstore where I can get everything I need and take a cab home.

So teleprompter? Sure. On the Jumbotron!

I think this brings up a good point and that is it depends on what and whom you are playing with. Small jazz intimate gigs, especially with pro musicians, frown on books on stage. So do rock groups, especially those 'musicians' that jump around the stage like they have ants in their pants.

However acts with a large repertoires may want some help and/or reminders. Our wedding band had a list of 350 songs that we had in one book but we also had fake books just in case. Another reason to learn to read music.

YMMV

For newer songs during our band days Janice would tape a card to her old '18 with maybe a one or two word hint for each line of the song. She could get several songs on a file card and she had eagle eyesight. Worked for her.

Bud

What might "her old '18" be?

Isn't that exactly what 'scat' was invented for?

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing
(Doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah, doo-ah)

1943 D-18 Martin

"The bigger problem for a lot of us as we age (include me in this sentiment) is that the teleprompter needs to be on the Jumbotron for us to read it"

I think within Eddie's lifetime Google Glass will solve his problems with size of text - if they could just make it look like a cool pair of sunglasses - nobody has to know !!! The glasses even move with your body - so think about how much more natural you can be on stage !!!

Wow yes you folks seem to be from the same school of thought that I am. Put on a good show, have a memory jogger if forgetfulness or nervousness is present.

Hi, in the genré of barbershop singing
you´ll never see any notes or words
distracting the contact with the audience !

I have to admit, though, that singing
in a quartet or chorus gives you the
necessary confidence as it is unusual
that all singers runs out of words
simultaneously !

The immediate eye contact with
your audience is important as
you can´t convey emotions as good
othervise ?

Cheers
Dani

When playing at retirement homes I realize that I need to split the computer screen between BIAB and lyrics, from a separate program.
The reason being that the thought of that age group knowing the lyrics better than me is a strong possibility

They better hurry. I'm 64!!

It's not much of a discussion when everyone's in agreement, so I thought I'd take the other side...

1) I've never seen a professional concert pianist use music. A lot to remember there, so it can be done.

2) Any form of prompt ties you to one spot on the stage - movement is part of performance and helps create atmosphere. We saw Tina Turner live only a few years ago when she was 69. There's no way she could do that act with a teleprompt.

3) If you have to concentrate on reading the words, it takes away some of the concentration you could be putting into the performance.

I realise I'm well outnumbered, here, but just sayin'...

ROG.

Rog, they're all good and noteworthy points too.
The single difference might be that these are generally big acts, big shows, big expectations and come at a (usually big) price.
Nevertheless, all valid points.
Trev

I think there is a disconnect in terminology here. Big name “artists” like Streisand, Springsteen, etc. have dozens of people running sound, lights, and pyro. They have people that tune their guitars. They also have an audience who came to see them specifically. It's a world apart from banging out covers in a raucous pub.

We've been using a computer onstage for years, and I have never had anyone complain that it was cheating.

IMO, when you're using tracks, the worst thing that can happen is not forgetting lyrics- it's getting out of sync with the tracks. Talk about a nightmare.


Regards,

Bob

Well said, the only thing I will add is that they also do the same tunes in the same order on every show for years in some cases. Plus in an hour show they may do 10 - 15 of these repeated songs at best.

I see it occasionally from the so called "purist" on one of the eConcert venues I play. A remark here and there about how some performers/me rely to much on tracks and a monitor to read music and lyrics. Then I see that same "purist" do the same 1 hour show every day playing the same 10 - 12 songs in the same style and tempo and strumming pattern. Hell, if you do the same show everyday all of your life you should never need a monitor or sheet music.

Just my 2 cents.

Later,

The real question at hand here is whether or not to let other people make your decisions for you.

Obviously, if you're up to the task, don't use any kind of prompts. There's no doubt that looks better, and will make the most favorable impression (assuming you don't screw up.)

But if you have a desire to play music in front of audiences, and you DON'T have the memory to pull it off... you basically have to choose between doing whatever it takes to make it possible...

... or give in to the nay sayers who pronounce that your plan isn't viable. I think the road to a frustrated existence is travelled mainly by people who willingly surrender their autonomy to public opinion.

As I look back over my life and consider the difference between people who accomplished things and those who didn't... it was far less a difference in ability than it was a difference in self-confidence. Those who were afraid of public opinion would never put their heads on the chopping block long enough to go through the necessary learning curve.

hahahahhaa! Danny, I know exactly who you are talking about, and you NAILED it!

Thanks, Pat. I think that about sums it up for me.

The only rider I would add is that amongst those who choose not to learn the words and chords, I believe there are two groups - those who simply can't and those who won't bother putting in the time and effort it takes.

ROG.

I did vocal coaching for a while and we did concerts every term. We weren't allowed any prompts. If we messed up we messed up. I think most people can learn to perform without prompts. (Having said that some people forgot their lyrics a lot more than others). BUT we were expected to learn a song over FOUR WEEKS and never to work on more than two songs at a time!

I am simply too impatient. If I can't learn a song in half an hour I am not interested. I usually use scrolling lyrics with chords in them on my iPhone. I have a little gadget that attaches to my mike stand. This all helps me get up to speed very quickly and at least to a stage when I can perform the songs in public. I find the more I play the songs in public the less I need the prompts.

Next year I am planning to perform at the Grahamstown arts festival, doing the same set of songs for 50 minutes everyday for a week. I will definately not use any prompts for that.

Indeed, part of this discussion is a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" consideration. I find that practice decreases my dependency on visual aids... but time in front of an audience is a necessary part of that practice. and it's something you can't get from practicing at home.

The visual aids give me the confidence I need to face an audience. If the material had to be completely memorized before I got on stage, at age 62 that would effectively undermine my goal of performing. Ever.

I don't want to end up as one of those people who practices forever and never performs.

Indeed Pat! This is something we definitely don't want. I played with a guy once. We practiced once a week, every week for a whole year and at the end of that year we had about 12 songs and still not a single gig in sight! Plus we had all the aids for backtracks and lyrics etc.Gave up on that one after that. As I said, I am not the most patient person on earth.

To aid the confused, click tracks into in-ear monitors are available with prompts.

Intro...2...3...4

Verse...2...3...4

Chorus...2...3...4

For the one's who may be lyrically impaired:

Happy Birthday...2...3...4

Hey Jude...2...3...4

Living on sponge cakes...2...3...4

Just kidding !!!

I know of 2 bands locally where the singer has a scrolling teleprompter in front of him and nobody is any the wiser because from the from the front it looks like a monitor/speaker. Same angled, upward facing design. I'd rather see a singer use a prompter than forget the words and freeze.

Years ago I was in a band that did one particular song that had a lot of "off the beat" stuff and it was very hard to stay in time. We needed to do something about that or drop the song. I had a drum machine that had an output that sent 5v out, and we rigged up some lights (car backup bulbs I think is what we used) and strung them across the stage to where the bulbs (2 per guy) were right under the wedges. When we did that song, I started the drum machine dialed into the right speed. The drummer wore headphones to hear the click track, the rest of us had lights to pace us, and we played that song in time after that. I never once considered it cheating. I considered it using all the tools we had available to us to create the best product we could.

I don't like when bands use tracks, and that could be considered them just using all the tools they have on hand, but I consider it denying musicians a spot in a band in order to make $25 more bucks per guy. I would rather play with 6 pieces and make less money (per gig - just play more!) than use a backing track for keyboards, horns and BGV. If you want horns, hire horn players. They are sitting at home doing nothing. Give them a job. That is the ONLY thing I have against tracks.

My take on that is that a guy with backing tracks isn't competing for the same gigs as the full band. They're really two completely different entertainment options.

The solo performer with tracks will end up in the corner of a restaurant or rest home where the volume can't be much more than that of a stereo... same gigs that might hire a solo guitar player with a mic. Small and intimate settings.

Likewise, the local clubs that host bands would never consider hiring a geek with a pc that streams backing tracks. Culture clash. Salt water fish vs fresh water fish.. they look alike but they prosper in different environments.

Rather than stealing opportunities from live performers, I see it is opening a whole new set of opportunities for live music that simply wouldn't be a good fit for a full band.

Notes and 90db aren't solo performers, so they can compete on the same turf as a band to some extent... but I bet they have trouble getting certain gigs that are the domain of full bands. They'd have to weigh in on that, as I'm just speculating

based on what I've seen among my group of musicians friends, I think this is a LOT more common than the phenomenon of taking the idea to a fruitful conclusion. Every musician dreams of performing... but it seems that most of them don't. At least, that's what I've seen.

“...I don't like when bands use tracks, and that could be considered the, just using all the tools they have on hand, but I consider it denying musicians a spot in a band in order to make $25 more bucks per guy. I would rather play with 6 pieces and make less money (per gig - just play more!) than use a backing track for keyboards, horns and BGV. ...”


Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.

Bands around these parts make $300 for a 4 hour slot on a weekend. That's $50 per man in a 6-piece – gross. The net?

Subtract gas, roadies(if they're willing to work for next to nothing), Load in/set up/sound check, Play for 4 hours, tear down, load out, drive home. The net is a lot less than $50.

We played Tuesday night at a pub. Here's the general breakdown:

Drive to venue (Toyota 4-Runner pulling a cargo trailer) – 1 hour
Arrive at venue at 12 PM.
Load in/set up/ sound check – 2 hours
Play from 2-6 PM – 4 hours
Tear down/load out – 1 hour
Drive home – 1 hour


That's 9 hours of work for $150. That equals $8.33 an hour each. Subtract gas, insurance, wear and tear, and the net is less than minimum wage. Do you know any musos that will work for that? I don't. Especially horn players.



Regards,

Bob

These are 4 piece bands playing with tracks. Usually guitar, bass, drums and a front singer and the music is half prerecorded. They play 200 seat rooms, not 40 seat wineries. They ARE taking gigs from full bands because they consider themselves to be a full band. This whole "The audience is stupid and they'll never know" mentality really makes me angry. When One guy is on stage singing and you hear 3 voices, you'd have to be some special kind of stupid to not know there are backing tracks playing.

Solo guys, I get it. I am one of them. (I don't really play but if I did it would be with tracks because I am so weak I can't just play a solo guitar and sing. My songs don't work that way.)

This is really all about money. Bands play cheap, almost free, JUST to be playing, and as I have said so many times and caught heat for it, music does not define me. It does not make me a better person. It does not add or detract from my value as a human being. It's just one thing of the MANY things I know how to do. I just had a rather terse exchange with someone about those people on Facebook who have so little in their lives that those 3 copy band gigs per month define who they are and they post pictures of their drums as a profile pick JUST so people hear them say "Look!! I am in the club! I play drums!! See???"

It's just a part time job.... I don't post a picture of the car I use to deliver auto parts 10 hours a week....

yeah... I do see your point. But in all fairness, there is a perceived difference in cool factor, even though they're both part time jobs.

And although it's true that most people don't identify themselves by their jobs, they DO tend to identify themselves by their hobbies. Music is unique in the fact that it can be both.

I have to concede this... I've never seen that fish, but I believe you when you say it exists.

I'd also have to say that if I could find a 4 piece band that was willing to play along with my tracks, I'd probably jump on that bandwagon before they changed their minds. And here's why:

in making my own tracks, I find that MOST songs have about 8 tracks... some have wayyyy more parts.. upwards to 24. I would not want a phone that dropped out all but 4 out of every 24 words... and likewise, I don't like to hear a song that I know has 24 parts being condensed down to 3 parts and a vocalist.

I also don't like the alternative of hearing bands settle for only songs that have 3 parts because that's what they can duplicate. I get bored quickly.

Trax keep the sound interesting, and more people on stage would keep the visuals interesting. It may just be my hobby, but I'd LOVE to watch a 4 piece band that uses trax, just to see how well they pull it off!

But that's just me.. I realize that personal taste runs in a lot of different directions, and ALL of them are valid.

Part of the reason I don't go see more music, even now in my retired years when I don't have to get to bed or wake up based on a job, is that 90% of the bands here are trio with front singer. Nobody else even sings. Or tries to. Don't even have mics. So already, that limits the band to either doing songs that have no harmony or leaving harmony out where it should be.

Then we get to the instrumentation. When the guitar player solos, that leaves bass and drums. That makes it REALLY empty. (Rush fans please don't bother pointing out that Rush is a trio. These bands are far from Rush, They are not even Hurry, much less Rush...) So rather than sound empty, some use backing keyboard tracks. Well, I am home and available....

As far as the bottom line dollar argument, we now are into the art vs craft discussion. I would rather play in an 8 piece band with horns doing Tower of Power, AWB and EW&F music and make $40 than a trio playing marginally listenable music to make $100. I make money. Money doesn't make me. By the same token, I make music. Music doesn't make me.

In my lifetime, I have been an absolute WIZARD in the IT field. My IQ is 162. I am a good enough cook to cook at a small restaurant. When I had tools I made some really nice furniture. I wrote a column for a newspaper for 2 years until the paper sold and I was out of the picture. If something breaks, I can fix it. If I listed all of that on a resume or a dating profile of anything public, none of that would draw as much as a mention. But add "I play 3 instruments, write, sing, and produce music", NOW I get attention. I find that insulting. THAT is what I mean by music defining people. My self esteem doesn't need the phony inflation JUST because of something I have done since before age 5.

I would love JUST ONCE to have someone say "Have you ever had his gumbolaya? It's amazing!" Or "That column he wrote about going to Chicago and eating all those hot dogs at the Cubs game was REALLY well written!" I am 33,500 words into a book about my boring life in the midwest that nobody would ever care to read. But mention music and it's "Oh wow!!! You're in a BAAAAAAAAAAAAND????"

And I don't even know where this discussion took this turn and I am sorry to hijack the thread with my ranting.

I can't speak for anyone else, but if you promise to say the kind of interesting stuff you usually do, you can hijack my threads anytime!

One last hijacking type post. I run into a lot of people who don't understand the way I look at music. (And this probably doesn't even really belong here.)

While music CAN be a way to make a living, and many of my friends do that, it is more than that to me. Music is a way to speak to strangers in a language that everybody understands. It's a way to pull everybody into one state of mind. Well crafted songs tend to have a soporific effect on people. The band I was going to put together to play blues (I decided it was not right for me and pulled out of it) was going to feature a lot of music by Gary Moore. I was trying to explain to the singer that he needed to not just sing the lyrics, but actually listen to them and understand the story he was trying to tell. The opening lines of "Still Got The Blues" are "Used to be so easy to give my heart away. But I found out the hard way there's a price you have to pay."

It's important to FEEL those lyrics. Anybody who has ever experienced the pain of a lost love (and isn't that just about everybody?) can relate to being emotionally invested in someone and having it taken away from you. That "price" is a huge sense of deflation. And if you can't sing that song in a way that you make the crowd feel that pain we have all known, then don't bother.

Listen to Bonnie Raitt sing I Can't Make You Love Me sometime. "Turn out the light. Turn down the bed. Turn off these voices inside my head...." Is that powerful writing? And it was written by Mike Reid, a former NFL lineman!! It really CAN come from anywhere!!

Music is not supposed to be just aural. It is also supposed to be intellectual and visceral. Music should give you something to listen to, something to think about, and something to feel. When you can reach down into someone's heart and soul and pull those things out of them, that's when you are a success. If you are not going for THOSE emotions, that's fine. Go the other way and play all "feel good" music. Whatever path you choose, make sure you do what you do with such skill and such conviction that the crowd feels what you feel. THAT is what's at the heart of this whole thing called music. And when people DO choose to put out a substandard product (like the bands I alluded to that have one singer and no rhythm section to speak of and are thus reduced to playing very lame music) just so they can make a little money, I do not respect them at all musically. Personally, sure. Musically, no.

The 2 times I heard the best music ever were not even music in the conventional sense. One was in the early 80s when I was in Arizona. I road out into the desert on a dirt bike about 3am, well past where the city lights had any effect. I sat out there and all I could hear was the oil dripping as the engine cooled, the little bit of breeze blowing the sand, and the occasional lizard running around. That was music I never heard before being a city kid. The other time was when my buddy and I went out night fishing on his boat. We were about 7 miles off shore out into Lake Erie, and as we reclined in the deck chairs, after a while the rhythm of the waves slapping the side of the boat became absolutely hypnotic. Again, a music I had never really heard before.

THAT is what I try to reach in people when I write.

And now I won't hijack anymore.