I've known some fine musicians that originally learned music by ear and very few of them ever got good at site reading. They can study a piece of sheet music and get an idea of what to play but have great difficulty playing note for note if site reading.

On the other hand I know some fine musicians that can grab a piece of sheet music, set it on a stand and sound like they have played the song forever. But, take away the sheet music, tell them the key signature for the song and start playing and the musician can not play along.

Obviously the ability to play by ear and the ability to sight read are both important skills to have but it appears to me that once a musician learns proficency at one skill the musician has extreme difficulty developing the second skill.

One of the things I use to most admire about the Tonight Show band and Paul Shaffer's Late Show band were both bands had musicians that could sight read or improvise as needed.

Thoughts or comments?

I am a firm and staunch believer in education in general and music in particular, so I always suggest music lessons if only so everybody in the project can speak "music" with equal fluency. There is nothing more fristrating to me to tell a singer "That phrase needs to be anticipated" and he doesn't know what I mean. Or "play that for 2 extra measures" and they don't know what a measure is. Now, that comes from one who has a string music education background. Not at the level of a Matt Finley kind of guy who was a music educator, but I know my way around charts and sheet music.

Knowing how to read, however, doesn't equate to strong improvisational skills, nor does it make anybody a better or worse player, depending on which side of that line they are on. I guess what I am saying is that they are two different skills and while they have a tangent effect on each other, they are different and complimentary skills.

I play by ear 100% of the time. Tell me the key if you want....or....I can figure it out pretty quick if you don't.

I can read the music at an elementary level. Essentially, I know the lines and spaces of the treble clef better than the bass clef....but I can eventually figure them all out including the ledger lines. But not well enough to read the music like I can read a book.

I've known a bunch of players, mostly in churches that could not play by ear if their lives depended on it but throw some Bach or Chopin in front of them in the key with 5 flats and they could make you believe they'd been playing it all their lives, as you mentioned. One of the ladies was a strict sight reader and could play anything.... so one day I asked her what the key of the song she was playing was.... she didn't know.... she could play it but didn't know how to tell the key. I asked her how many flats or sharps.... she said 2 sharps.... D major. That blew my mind. How did she ever learn to play without knowing something so basic as the key signature... That's one of the things my piano teacher drilled my on constantly.


I believe in education but I can also see where it can stifle a person's ability to create and be spontaneous. So for me, it's a balancing act.... but .....

I'd rather play with folks who can play by ear.

Not necessarily, both need to be practiced. As Eddie mentioned all should take music lessons. A good teacher will teach you how to read music along with theory while a great one will also teach improvisation. Both are very important if you are to make it professionally.

With today's technology, mostly BiaB, you can both practice site reading and improvisation anytime you want. The band is always ready!

On a side note back in the mid 60's I was one of the few guitarists that could read music and I could improvise. Because of this I was asked to join a wedding band and as I needed the money I did. That was one of the most important things that I ever did. Site read out of the original fake book and also improvise based on the chord structure. Plus a lot of those songs were not in guitar friendly key signatures, i.e. a lot of Eb, Bb and Ab. I got a great education playing with those old timers in that wedding band.

I like to think of music like a language.

It's very handy to be able to read. Book newspaper signs music etc.

And to write. Notes stories directions songs etc.

And to speak sing play and make noises others can understand and to hear what others say and play.

Don't suppose it's necessary to do all 3 but it's very handy. Cheers.

The majority of players I work with are both good sight readers and good improvisers. Good examples are the service bands, especially the ones in D.C. The ability to both sight read and improvise are high in demand. The ones who do both work the most in the D.C. area. Ray

I do both. But I generally prefer to sight read. I can usually sight read a chart straight out, even if I don't know or have never heard the tune.

Figuring out chords by ear is probably a bit easier than figuring out chords and also working out the entire melody at the same time.

YMMV

Trevor

One really interesting period of time was when I played with the church "band". To call it a band was a misnomer. It was more of an orchestra due to the large number of instruments that you would normally find in an orchestra. Since most of them were the "flat" instruments... trumpets and such things.... lots of the sheet music was geared towards them.

As such, and due to the music minister's "bizarre*" likes in music....(* you had to be there) we often played in the "flat keys". As Charlie pointed out, Bb, Eb, and Ab. It was, to say the least, an education in "sight reading of the chords". The sheet music always had chords written on it. If there was a chord on it I didn't know, I'd look it up and add it to the vast repertoire of chords in my head.

When the other guitarist was reaching for his capo, I was playing the chords as indicated. Some of that stuff was pretty challenging to play since the chords were rarely the straight up open chords 90% of guitar players use. It all ended rather rudely and abruptly... but that's a story for another day and another thread.

I am in a curious position in regard to this. I read very fluently for Brass, for example all the Beethoven symphonies. I thought this would transfer easily to sax, but it did not. I had to larn to read again. Eventually I got to be able to do it. Then when I switched to piano I found sight reading really hard. I discovered the reason. It was because I was memorising everything, so after a couple of goes around I was no longer reading. This meant I could not really learn to sight read. I now just do real book sight reading.

Z

That's funny. When I took piano lessons as a child... my piano teacher would hand me a new piece of music to learn the following week. She would set it on the piano and play through it so I could hear what it sounded like.

The following week, I'd show up for my lesson and she'd ask me to play the new piece. So I would. One week, after I played it rather flawlessly..... because I had practiced it all week.... she sat silently as I played it. After I finished, she didn't say a word for several seconds.... then she said...

"Herbert, that was really nice. Now.... would you please play that again and this time, play what's actually written on the paper."

Busted... big time. I was listening to her play it and going home and playing the songs from memory....and of course, I played kind of what was there but mostly adding things and leaving others out.... I had, and still have a good ear and she did recognize that skill.

Some time later, I went to the lesson one day and after a few minutes, she asked me how much time I had spent practicing the piano that week. I told her. It wasn't very much. I was generous in my lie and told her about 15 minutes total. She asked how much time I spent playing the guitar that week. I told her that too, several hours I said, underestimating this one by several hours. I would come home from school and spend several hours daily playing along with the radio & record player learning and playing songs. She looked at me over her glasses with that stern teacher's stare she had perfected over decades of teaching piano students. She told me to pack my music and go home since I was wasting her time and my mom's money, but to keep playing the guitar. It was a short lecture but it seemed to last a long time. My piano lessons were done. I learned a lot from that lady about music and theory. Thank you Mrs Leigh.

My mom was not happy but she got over it and I kept playing the guitar.

I don't want to open that can of worms again so I will just make this statement and not elaborate, as this was discussed to death.

I believe that there is a subtle difference between a "musician" and "someone who knows how to play an instrument". And this thread is kind of about where I believe that line is.

Funny that you mentioned the horns and "flat" instruments.

When I took up the sax I bought an alto. I took it home, played a note on the piano and found it on the sax. I did that with a sax fingering book open and though I knew about it being an Eb instrument I had to hear for myself that the note that showed fingering and called F# was the top three keys closed and the middle key on the bottom hand closed, that note in my brain was A. I learned my sax in concert key. Then someone handed me charts written in Eb and before I did the gig I literally had to write new charts transposed to concert key. I have been playing sax now for over 30 years and still know it in concert key. Why that stinks is that if you hand me a tenor or a soprano I have to think about every note sine it is a Bb instrument, and that same F# on the paper, a concert A on the alto, is now a concert E. Totally messes me up. And if I have to think when I play, I can't play. I am too busy thinking.

I don't think it's necessarily an either/or situation.

I learned to read before I learned to play by ear, and I'm very good at both. So are many other musicians that I know.

On the other hand I also know some musicians who are good at one but not the others.

Personally, I think both skills are necessary, along with at least an understanding of basic music theory.

You could be a great author of novels without learning to read or write by recording your voice. (similar to reading music). And you can do it without learning grammar (similar to music theory). But most people cannot, and the few that do have extraordinary talents that we mortals can only dream about having.

There are dozens of different skills involved in playing music, and they aren't distributed evenly among us. Reading, playing by ear, transposition, improvisation, phrasing, dynamics, are just a few. Some people seem to have them all, others have some strong and some weak. When you practice, it makes sense to practice what you are weak at.

Insights and incites by Notes

This is one of those skills I talked about in my previous post.

I play flute and wind synth in concert key, Bb Tenor&Soprano and Eb Alto&Bari. I can read a concert chart and transpose to play my tenor or soprano just fine. Tenor has been my main sax since I was in Junior High School. I can't do that on Eb Alto or Bari. I suppose if I was predominantly and alto player, I'd learn that skill too.

And I like your distinction between a musician and someone who knows how to play an instrument. IMHO a musician can read music (not necessarily sightread difficult charts but woodshed them), and knows at least basic music theory. There are of course exceptions and people will come up with a half dozen musicians who can't read music and ignore the fact that they are less than a thousandth of a percent of all musicians.

But my opinion and a dollar will buy a cup of coffee (unless you go to Starbucks).

Insights and incites by Notes

Know what else is weird for me, Notes? I CAN NOT play a guitar with a capo. My brain is SO LOCKED on those fret markers and chords in positions related to those markers that I just can't use a capo. I have tried a dozen times and once I have to start thinking about where the next chord is, I can no longer play. Strange, I know, but it is how it is.

And those maniacs that use one capo in front of another just on the top 4 strings... HOW do they do that?

Bwahahahaha

Says more about the topic than a 1000 words!

Yes Eddie I know what you mean. My head is screwed too having been tought trumpet in Bb. At an early age I got an audition with a very fine orchestra. I had been playing in brass bands. They immediately handed me sheets in all sorts of keys to sight transpose. I just fell flat on my face and it killed me inside.
This notation stuff, this monk's spider scrawl, can get so distracting and so needlessly complicated and visually cluttered. I never got comforable with bass clef it always seemed so needless to put the C in the place where A is, and even then, if you do this on a transposing instrument the C your playing may be an Eb or a Bb or some other thing. Makes my brain hurt. I just think there must be easier ways to do all this. No wonder people fall over when you take their dot's away.







Z

You need to stop looking at the fret board. Play by feel. You should know the chords and be able to jump to them instantly. So, don't look. Only look if you need to jump to a barre chord or to fond the first note of a solo.... then simply do a quick mental calculation.... capo is up 2 frets (for example) so the barre is up 2 frets past the marker.

Once I get into a solo or chords on a song, I rarely look at the guitar fret board. How else can one sing and play at the same time?

Herb, my other thought was that since I would only capo to one alternate position on the neck that I might get stick on dots and put them on what would become the 3rd fret to my eyes if I capo on the 2nd fret. It's just SO difficult for me to have my brain trained 2 different ways. I have a friend who plays her guitar in this weird tuning (from 6 to 1, DADGAD) and then picks up a different guitar in standard tuning and plays it. I would have to put myself in a place where I sit in a quiet corner and purge my brain of everything I know about the guitar after playing it since 1964. I have to play instinctively. If I have to think at all about what I am doing, I am 2 measures behind the rest of the band. I CAN play open tuning, like open D or open G or open E, when I play slide.

I imagine if I holed up and spent time I could learn the "split brain" thing but I really don't perform any more and if i am going to learn anything new it wouldn't be anything in music. Like I want to find a college that will let me sit in and audit wind technology classes so I can learn how to turn wind into electricity. Then do the same with solar. 59 years of music has been enough.

Any capo is just a different tuning. My capo is the index finger. I don't care about the fret. You know the difference between "absolute" and "relative"? The fifth fret on a guitar without a capo is absolute, the fifth fret on a guitar with capo is relative.

If you play barré chords, there is no difference between an A or a Bb, actually. You just start at a different fret. (I don't care about the key, that includes spelled out chords. Everthing is relative. I play in the key of C on any fret of the guitar. Smile)

In your case that might be difficult on first sight. (You know, counting everthing you do...I also count a lot. I do understand you in this case.) On a second glance it might come easy. You just start to count at a different "0" when using a capo.


Edit: corrected one typo

Lol, you better don't try to play pedal steel, especially one with a universal tuning or a twin neck. And never try to play a copedant of another player. It might be confusing. ... especially if you decide to change necks within a tune.

Really, there is no split brain required. Treat it as a different instrument. I reckon you can differentiate between different saxes and their tunings. The same applies to a guitar with or without a capo.

Herb, we had the same experience but i was the guy with the capo. To my ear the open chord sounds that a capo affords is a reason to use it. I transcribed the flat key chords to the capo chords on the fly after awhile and helped me avoid barre chords.

With that said I am still jealous of people like you that don't need the capo. I'm like that on keys and even prefer the flat keys on keys.

I started out playing by ear on guitar. When I started playing the piano I started sight reading...slowly...lol I am still kinda slow at sight reading.

I also play trumpet both by ear and sighting reading and I don't too much care what key you play in. Some keys are less trouble that others.Learned to play trumpet and read in high school.
Sight reading horn lines are a lot less of a problem for me than sight reading piano, perhaps because I learned that as a young kid.

If I am playing guitar with a horn section I always ask if they are ok with the key. 99% of the time the horn players I have played with can play in any key without issue. I like to sing in A so moving up to Bb or down to Ab is not much of a issue for most songs.

There is a lot of blues in the key of E and it just does not sound good in any other key, mostly because that is what we are use to hearing, and because of the open strings and low notes that are normally played.

For the guitar, I can play in any key, but for some reason I don't like to play much in Eb.

Why anyone would play in Gb I don't know, so I just play in Gb and think in F#. Don't ask me to sight read in Gb...lol

Of the two skills I think it is a lot harder to learn to play by ear than to learn to sight read. For me the hardest thing to do by ear is to play with just a drummer and a bass player when the bass player does not go to the tonic on the chord change. Also it is hard for me to hear the very low notes on the bass, E to F for example. Too many bombing runs in Viet Nam I guess. Hearing loss from the aircraft I was flying.

Playing with the old blues guys, it was rare for anyone to call the key. The lead player would just kick something off and it was expected that I would have it figured by the second or third note. There were exceptions to that, like when everyone needed to play the same note at the same time on the intro for example. Some of the old blues players could read but most could not or would not. Almost all of the old black jazz players I have played with could sight read and could give anyone a run for the money when it came to theory, no matter what high dollar school you went to.

I never met anyone who told me that learning both skill sets caused them any issues.

There is an old joke about how to get the guitar player to shut up....put some sheet music in front of him...lol

For sure one would need both skill sets to play in the studio in LA or Nashville, or New York. A guitar player would need to read Tab and Nashville number system and sight read.

There is a time and place for everything. I have had some negative feedback for bring sheet music on stage by a few guys who worked for me, but not from the people that were paying the bill.

There are always exception to most everything and this has been just my experience. I have not been everywhere and been exposed to everything.

Cheers,


Billy

EDIT: This brings up another sticky problematic issue. If I am working as a side man in your band I am going to play whatever you ask me to to the best of my ability. If you are working for me you will play what I ask you to or I will find someone who can and will. Don't come to my gig to learn the material and you XXXX sure better not come to my gig to drink and do drugs. Hard XXX old school thinking?? Yep, so get with the program..lol..I came to the gig to work and I expect and demand the same from the people who work for me. I am sure this edit will not be well received by some...lollol

But even if I have a capo on 2, and I want an Am, playing a full barre chord, it's still the 5th fret. It's playing open strings that are no longer EADGBE that messes me up.

Like okay. One of my songs was in D but I needed to play some arpeggiated chords with accent notes that required me to play it with open C fingering. Yes, I could have put a capo on 2 and played it like the capo was the nut and I was playing it in C, but my brain would not allow that. I actually ended up putting lighter gauge strings on a guitar and tuning it up to F#-B-E-A-C#-F# so I could play it like it was a normal tuning but had to train my brain like "The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C." And I literally had to do a chart of the chord pattern in C to play it that way. I could not get my perfect-pitch addled brain to play a note I knew was a D as if it was a C. Nor could I get my guitar playing brain to ignore the fret markers. It's weird, I know, but remember I also have my DVDs and CDs in alphabetical order. And if I bought a CD by Notes Norton, I am so OCD that I would move every CD after where Notes Norton falls alphabetically in my collection back one slot so that CD was in proper order. If I bought a CD by Adam Ant, it would be a 2 hour project for me to move about 700 CDs in binders all back one slot so Adam Ant was where it belonged.

OCD, anal retentive and ADHD (plus PTSD!) is NOT a good combination.

BTW I loved the pic DB...

Eddie, as I said I ave been down a similar road, if you convert your thinking from note names to roman numerals this might help.....(IMO)

I do understand that there are people like you. And I do understand that their mind works that way. I guess I also do have corners in my mind that are more rigid, but some areas seem to work fine with a relative starting point.

I had to play some songs in so many different keys or transpose them on the fly from sheet music that I play in the key of "C" on any position of the fretboard. Back in the 1970s my guitar was constantly tuned in Eb. That probably helped also.
Transposing on the fly causes me to have a lot more trouble on my piano-accordion. It is much easier on a button-accordion where you play the same pattern on just a different location of the button (?) board. (I don't have one so this is no option for me, but I have that experience from playing my accordion's bass section.) Maybe I should devise an Irving Berlin type accordion.


I also have my CDs and vinyl's in strict alphabetical order, some exceptions where an artist has changed names occur, but I left room to insert CDs without moving all the ones after that one. Adam Ant would cause me to move about 30-something CDs on the shelf -- I don't have CDs in binders -- and I don't have a shelf with molds for each CD so I had to move them individually. It is a wooden board that has a slightly smaller depth than a Jewel case is long, so I just push 'em a little to the right.

The accordion is nice for key changes though. Wherever you start, one row of bass buttons up is a 5th, down is a 4th. Chord wheel right before your eyes. That really helped me learn chord relationships at an early age. I was 4yrs 10 months when I started on my 17 key, 8 bass button accordion. And I still have it! 59 years later.

That's what I like about BB/RB.

They don't show up late, drunk, or stoned and the drummer doesn't try to steal your wife or girlfriend. They don't run up a bar tab and then skip out without paying it. And they don't bring drunk, loud, obnoxious groupies into the band's dressing room backstage.


And they play what you ask them to and do it professionally. Essentially, the perfect band.

Mine was bought by my dad somewhere around 1949, at four years of age the accordion was still to large with 41 keys and 120 bass buttons. But an uncle of mine did impress me on a visit playing boogie woogie songs, don't recall how good it was but it made a lasting impression.

I was around 7 or 8 when I started to take lessons.

Needless to say, I still have it, had it in the shop last year to change the right-hand manual reed chamber and I'm back to relearning one of my favorites: Dobs Boogie. Right-hand/left-hand coordination seems to have left the house for such stuff.

And here it is. A Hohner Mignon.

Can you play "Who Stole the Kishka?"

I don't use one either, for two reasons:

• I learned moveable chords first, and find them very easy - I'll use open string chords only if the song requres that
• I find the capo puts the guitar slightly out of tune, add fingers on a fret and it's even more out of tune. I don't suppose it's enough for the audience to notice, but I spent so much time training my ears to play the sax in tune, that not being able to resolve a note in tune when I want to just bugs me.

This is not to dis capo players. Plenty of people do it and do it well, it's just not for me.

Insights and incites by Notes

Barre and other movable chords are my preference.

Unlike guitar, when playing sax or keyboard, changing the key a half step requires entirely new fingering. Going from the key of C to C# means going from no flats or sharps to 7 sharps, including the B# which is also a C natural. I can do that but it takes a brain shift.

With Barre and other movable chords, I just move my hand up a fret and play everything with the same fingering!!! After decades on the saxophone, that part of learning guitar was a treat!!! Hey! do you want to modulate up another half step? This is fun, how about another?

The down side of guitar is that it is definitely harder to learn to read sheet music on the guitar.

Thanks for the Hendrix pictures - I posted that there were exceptions to the rule, and Jimi is definitely one of them. Jimi did know a lot of music theory, just not how to read/write it. Eroll Garner (composer of "Misty") is another exception. But for every genius like that, there are millions of people who can't duplicate that feat.

Now it is not my intention to make anybody feel inferior because they lack a particular skill. That's not the point. On the other hand, I do encourage everyone who wants to improve their musical skills and expressive potential to learn as much as they can though.

If you give up one TV show per night, you could probably learn to read non-complex sheet music in one TV season. It's not difficult once you get the hang of it, and then the rest comes rather quickly. Same for a music theory book.

I can make simple things with a saw, hammer, nails, glue and screws. My neighbor makes artistic one-of-a-kind furniture pieces, and they are beautiful. I don't feel badly that he has much better carpentry skills than I do. I play better sax than he does

Insights and incites by Notes

I played with a piano/trumpet player who had absolute pitch (perfect pitch).

She thought of everything in concert key, which meant when she read trumpet charts, she had problems getting her brain around the notation being off, and transposing it to the concert key notes she learned on her trumpet.

I played sax in guitar bands most of my life. While sax players in orchestras prefer Bb and Eb concert, I really like playing in E and A concert better. My fingers are happier in those keys.

BTW, if two musicians auditioned for my band and had equal musical and personality skills, except one could read music, and the other not, I'd choose the reader. Of course, two people are never that identical with that one exception.

Insights and incites by Notes

I once knew a woman who played pedal harp in Eugene Ormandy's Philly Orch. She played beautifully. Take the sheet music away, and she couldn't improvise a note.


Which skill is more useful? That, obviously, is a matter of opinion.

I am of the opinion that if someone can play well and improvise, I don't care if they can read English.



Regards,

Bob

I'm with you Bob. A music teacher once told me she couldn't play 2 bars of anything without sheet music in front of her.

I couldn't help but think she had no business teaching.

Well....that makes (3) of us.
I've had one forever...put in on once....for about (3) minutes.
Tried a couple of open chords with it and it just wasn't for me.
I've never had problem with any chord structures so it hasn't graced a fret board since.


Carry on....

And here's mine:

As am I.
My wife is an excellent pianist, providing she has sheet music in front of her. Take away the sheet music and she is lost. She is also lost with fake books. She needs everything notated.

Your wife's situation is the same as many of the world's best players who are in the world's best symphonies.

Eddie, when I look at that picture, the only thing I can hear is "Under Paris Skies"

Are you kidding? That's like the first song accordion players learn!! And then Blue Skirt Waltz!

Interesting fact nobody will care about. The Polka Hall of Fame is just one suburb outside of Cleveland. With Clevelander Frankie Yankovic front and center.

How'd that work out for you on your wedding night? You brought a copy of the Kama Sutra on your honeymoon?

Yes I know. I was talking to a professional violinist who was trying to learn improvisation. She said that she attended an improvisation course and was floored when the instructor said "if you hit a wrong note heaven is a half step up or down"!

PS - the last time that I talked to her she said she still doesn't get improvisation.

My wife is a piano teacher and can sight read and play pretty wonderfully to written music (but maybe not as well as in her college days). She just doesn't have to gift/desire/drive to improvise -- but her ear is excellent.

If her students want to learn a "pop" song, they go to youtube and listen to it and within about 10 seconds she is playing along like she knew the song all her life.

Ask her to play a tune (the flintstones theme song) and she will have it going in a very short while. I am of the opinion that most trained musicians who have a good ear are mostly like her. Not everyone is that interested in improvisational stuff.

However if they can't pick things out by ear (sort of like me) then they are not complete musicians. But if they still enjoy music, that is fine with me.

What an interesting mix of skills we all have.

I'm a trombone player, but I learned in a British tradition brass band, so the 'bone was notated in transposed treble, all same as a trumpet or sax.

I first saw bass clef, and then had to learn it, when I was around 40. That was a new experience

So these days I have what I call a "B flat head" - when I see a "C" on the second space, to me it is a "D" in 6th position instead of a "C" in 6th position, 'cos that's the way I fly.

Still, it has it's advantages: I learned to sight transpose Concert treble fairly early on, and concert Tenor clef is just like reading Bb transposed treble, you just add 2 sharps, add the bass clef I now read and then to make life interesting, if you read an Eb transposed treble chart you can read it as bass clef, just add 3 flats. All good.

...but, my greatest satisfaction came about when I finally started learning how to improvise - this will be a journey that will take the rest of my life and I will enjoy every step. I am unable to do the listening I really should as a wannabe jazz musician, but I do what I can and accept that the journey will be slower. That's all good too, 'cos perhaps it will help me live longer

I find this thread intereting.

I recently switced instruments, having been seduced by a Hammond.

I decided to ditch note reading altogether for this istrument.

Whast I am doing practice wise is taking simple folk tunes and running them through 12 keys. In the end I want to be able to pick any tune in my head and play it in any key, as I choose. I sense this is not as far as as it sounds, its just a question of developing direct wiring from the finger to the ear. We can all hear the rigt notes.

I am beginning to wonder if all ths notation and analysis stuff is necessary at all - in fact it isnt, with practice, you can just go to an instrument and play.

Well it all depends on the situation. If you play alone, I fully agree, well, maybe not quite, but to a very large percentage not reaching 100 percent.

If you're part of an ensemble and the band leader says: "We have a new arrangement of tune X." that you have never heard before. How would you know what to play and when?

Also if you're presented with a new tune for you to play you need some information. Even if the tune is well known there might be some information on the music sheet that is not in your head yet. As an example a Hammond organ is an almost perfect instrument to play the Flight of the Bumble Bee. Even if you've heard it a hundred times before you probably will miss some nuances...

You have some good points, but the vehicle "classical notation" is not realy fit for purpose. I once saw someone try to notate a sax solo exactly, they ended up with a mess of hemi-demi-semiquavers, Notation is VERY bad at many things.
In particular iot's bad for learners creativity, because it gives them a two dimensional understanding. By giving them the notes, it takes away the task of UNDERSTANDING what they are playing - so they play liek a photocopier copies an image, without realyl knowing what the picture is. It would be much better IMO that learners were told the interval name only, and then asked to find that interval. There is so much else about notation that is needlesly intimidating, needlessly confusing and needlessly obscure. Yes we need it, but it would be better if we could redesign the whole thing, if we could achieve universal acceptance, which is sadly unlikely
How many children have been turned off by classical notation |I sdont know, but I suspect its many.
Z

I understand what you're saying, BUT I would argue that what you're describing is a result of a lack of understanding of the additions of Jazz notation, which has its own dialect of marks (rises, falls etc.)


I would argue that's more a shortcoming of the teacher, and perhaps the teachers understanding, rather than the system itself.

I'm not trying to suggest the notation system we use is perfect, nothing is, but I think it's better than you're giving it credit for.

In particular, jazz musicians understand that the dots are "just a guide", and that the time they spend learning conventions associated with reading the notation are just as important as learning the notation itself. The "dialect" differences mentioned above, which successfully simplify the notation without losing the nuances, yet still allowing for the individual musicians interpretation.

One of the simplest examples of this is swing. The notation has quavers (eighths if you prefer) but we play in the general feel of crotchet/quaver (4th/8th) triplets. Not exactly of course but close enough for a short written approximation. If you were to write it as played, the notation would be much more complex, but still capable of representing tha actual desired result. It is the conventions, the dialect, that makes useful simplification possible... but you have to know the dialect.

This is a very interesting thread.

And probably leads onto the discussion of how much natural musical ability we each may have or not.

To be honest after going to a good few guitar classes when younger I am of the view that there are a lot less natural gifted musicians out there than we think, most people get there through a hard slog of countless hours of practice, the gifted one have to do that too of course to get to know their instruments too as regards fingering etc.

Maybe even is it a good test of a persons natural musical ability if they can pick out a song by ear within a very short time and know and able to get an interval test right.

Oh you get the people who say all you need to do in the above is practice practice and of course a person can get better at recognising intervals and other tests, but the ones with the natural musical ability will be that far ahead with a lot less effort.

I don't think a lot of hobbyist musicians would admit to NOT being able to do the above, human nature as it is, very few will admit it even on a forum.

Personally I don't think I have any great natural musical ability, just have put a little effort (not enough) into trying to get some enjoyment out of making music, and would fail the above tests.

I think as well its possible to have a musician who is lets say a very good sight reader and plays the piano or other instrument well, who has got there with lots of practice, but at the end of the day maybe doesn't have a great deal of natural musical ability.

And it probably doesn't really matter at the end of the day anyways (unless we want to make a living out of making music) whether we have a great deal of natural music ability or not, as long as we enjoy succeeding or trying to make and play music.

Musiclover

I would argue that what we "all" want is DC neural current plugging into the brain, so that the fingers automatically deliver what the "singing mind" can imagine For this you don't even need your eyes - Stevie, Ray Charles.

So is almost any written language. Whatever expression in any language you chisel in stone shows almost no emotion and expression. Yes, there are tricks of the trade to give a hint. But for real expression and often for making sense you need to add another dimension.

In German we have a phrase "Was willst Du schon wieder?" I translate that word by word into "What want you already again?" The sense is in the emphasis of a single word and the pauses between the words ranging from a disturbed "What is it that you do want?" over a forgotten request "What do you want again?" to a surprised "What was it that you wanted?" and a few others to the final "What? You want again? Now?" with wide open eyes after wildly dancing horizontally... (The order of the words doesn't change in the German example.)

Musical notation is the same. There are a few dots and circles indicating (!) what to play. Other times, especially in classical music, they are more rigid. Sometimes there is a hint "lively" or "shuffle" or such things, sometimes there is a tempo given. We as musicians translate this into either a copy of something existing or we transfer it into our own piece of music. One example that I remember is the song Don't Be Cruel. Elvis made the song his with his rendition, and Billy Swan made it also his in a totally different way. The original sheet music was only the conveying agent of an idea that has been interpreted differently.



Who/what drives kids away from music education?
Probably teachers to a major part -- choosing the wrong music, choosing the wrong method. For a minor part, kids have stronger talents and interests in other fields. For a very small part there are the musically illiterate kids.

Yet it's still true that, imagining you are a five year old, and you see a note - say this one

[img]http://www.oratoryprep.co.uk/uf/00056_c283f1b34d7c/images/imagemanager/3rd_line_b.png

[/img]

You don't even know what it is, unless you look elsewhere (clef) and then perhaps do some mental calculations. It can be any type of note depending on whether it's transposed, whether its treble clef, bass clef, or any other number of clefs. Even if you know the note is a B (as I was tught it was on trumpet) it might actually be a Db, which can also be called a C# or even B##.

Confused?

The line going up (stem) does not signify much either (it could also go down) and its ever so easy to have your eyes scan a wrong line, if you are watiching fast. When you look at them in clusters, with beams, accents and all, they get even more confusing to the eye. What the learner needs to really understand (as oppossed to know) is the role of that note (root, ...third), in the harmony of the piece. All of these perambulations above dont tell you this, and this is the MOST essential information along with length (in classical music the length of a note is often not notated correctly.

Yes it is possible to play without knowing the function of a note, but it's like a person knows another, by only looking at photographs, never meeting them in the flesh, it's all too flat and two dimensional. It can even be misleading .. IMO

Everyone I knew in my teen and early twenty years that played an instrument and did not read music is not playing today. Everyone that did read music still is playing.

I know that my sample size is small but I think it shows a trend. I also know there are exceptions to every rule. You don't need to read music or to understand theory but you will be a more versatile musician if you do.

My philosophy is learn to read music and learn at least some theory but don't let it get in the way of your playing. Use it to expand your skills, to open new doors and to better understand what you are playing.

PS - if Dr. Gannon and company did not have any theory skills do you think we would have BiaB today?

Until you get called in to do a session for $250 an hour.... and they sit sheet music in front of you for a song you have never heard and it's in Db and you have no more than 4 takes allowed before they fire you and bring in the next guy.

This is all relative. Someone who wants to play 3 chord oldies as a hobby on weekends requires a different set of skills than someone who makes a living playing jingles for soda pop, shoelaces, an asbestos eradication company and a fish market all in the same day.

Much the same as a home hobby woodworker is not likely to be as precise or creative as a carpenter who works 50 hours a week making custom kitchen cabinets. There is really not a "better than" piece to this puzzle. Just a "different from" piece.

A professional musician, and again that opens a can depending on how literally you define "professional" (to me it means the guy who writes and records and tours in the big bus and sells t-shirts and baseball caps where to some it means nothing more than "I get paid to play"), really needs to know those fundamentals and theory. And please do not start telling me about how Sinatra didn't write. When you get to Sinatra's international level of fame I'll give you a hall pass on the writing side of things. Given the choice between being Sinatra or Diane Warren I'd take the writing side of things every time, mainly because I don't want to live on planes and in hotels and have to gear myself up mentally to perform every other day. I have an annual reunion show coming up next month. This year we are doing 2 nights. 2 consecutive nights of performing is going to drain me physically and emotionally that I won't recover until January, because I don't do this regularly like so many of you do. It's a big deal to me because of how long I know the rest of the guys and how close I am to them personally. For me, the people in the crowd aren't even there. I have too much to focus on as far as what I am playing on what song, which synth sounds I need, lyrics to remember, harmony parts.... the people are just there to pay me! LOL!!!

Again, it's all relative.

There are plenty of classical (and other) musicians that can sight-read the most difficult music but cannot improvise.

There are people who can't read music that can improvise well but put a moderate piece of music in front of them and they can't play.

I often read posts by players who dis the readers. This saddens me. It's as if the non-readers want to feel better about themselves by diminishing the talents of the readers.

I read well and I improvise well. Both are handy skills but not being able to improvise does not make you an inferior musician by any stretch of the imagination. Ask Itzak Perlman and so many of the most famous classical musicians.

Like improvisers, there is a skill to reading music and making it come alive. To the non-reader it seems like all you have to do is mechanically read the dots on the page and voila, you have music. This is far from the truth.

If you read the notes as if you entered them quantized into a sequencer, you are not necessarily a good musician. There are markings in the music that give you an idea of how the composer wants it to sound, and you use your skills and the lessons your teacher taught you to put the nuances into the music. When appropriate things like dragging the beginning of a phrase and rushing the end to end on time, pushing the second beat of a waltz a little bit ahead of the beat, dragging 2-beat triplets, putting more emphasis on syncopated notes, adding some 'swing feel' to eighth notes, deciding how much space to leave between the notes, using various articulation techniques, when and how much vibrato to use, dynamics, and thousands of other expressive devices that you have to instinctively know where and when to apply while sightreading. This skill is every bit as difficult and perhaps even more difficult than improvisation. And in reality, the good sightreader is playing by sight AND by ear. You need both to be a good sightreader.

So don't ever dis anyone who can't play when you take the music away. You are sending the wrong message about yourself when you do.

I learned to read music first. I was in the school band, and even made it to first sax in the all-state band every year I was in high school. I did this on tenor sax, and the chair usually goes to an alto sax player by default. By high school, I also got into a rock band and at first used my ears to duplicate solos I heard on records, picking out one note at a time. This is true learning by ear and it is a laborious process at first. Then I tried my hand at improvising. I was pretty lousy at it at first, but as I learned more I got better at it to the point where I enjoy improvising much more than reading music. Take the music away, tell me what key, and I can still improvise better than I can transpose the melody in my head.

But I'm still blown away by a person who can sit with a Rachmaninoff concerto in front of him/her and sightread it. That to me seems much more difficult than improvising a jazz solo over a set of chords.

Insights and incites by Notes

That is an interesting topic as well. I am in the school that NOBODY has any talent in any field at birth. Music, sports, painting, writing.... I believe that everything we do is an acquired skill. Nobody came out of the womb knowing the C major scale. It was learned (or acquired, if you prefer). SO many people you see interviewed say something similar to "We had music playing in our house all the time." or "My mother sang in church so I started doing it." That leads to the argument that it was the exposure that led to the development of a skill.

Back when I played 4-6 nights a week, at least 3 times a week someone would come up and say "I wish I could play keyboards like that". And my answer was the same every time. "Why can't you? I wasn't born knowing how to play. I started lessons like everybody else and I put in the hours. You can start learning tomorrow if you really want to do it. I don't know what you do for a living but I can pretty much assume that you learned how to do it at some point. Music is no different." And I had at least a dozen of them come to me 3 months later and say they had started piano lessons.

I was fortunate to have a theory nazi for a teacher. I was not allowed to touch in instrument until I could tell him that when he pointed to the black dot on the second line that the dot represented "this key" on the little embossed plastic 3 octave keyboard in front of me and that the black dot with the stem on it meant one beat. And the hollowed out black dot with the stem meant 2 beats. And the dot added one half of the note it was behind. I did that for 6 weeks before I was allowed to sit at the piano and HEAR what that black dot on the second line sounded like.

A side story. When I was 18, before going into the Army, I worked in a men's clothing store to fill the 3 months between my deferred enlistment date and my reporting date. In walked an old man looking for a navy blue blazer. I recognized him instantly. He walked over and said "You got a blue sport coat for an old man?" I replied "Sure. Is he coming in any time soon?" I showed him the jacket he wanted and we walked up to the cash register. He asked how much it would be and I told him "This is on me. You taught me so much about music that I could never repay you for it, and this is just my way of saying thank you." THEN he looked closer at me (This was 8 years after I stopped taking lessons from him) and said "My god. Edward!" And I put my hands on his upper arms and said "I was in bands and choirs in high school and I could never have done any of that without what you taught me. My teachers were so impressed with how well I knew theory and fundamentals, and I learned all of that from you." He told me "You were one of my best students ever." And we both had tears in our eyes as I gave him a hug before he left. Of course that guy has long since passed (I'm 64. He'd be like 135 now.) but I will never forget him. George F. Schulte, I'll see you in music heaven when I get there.

Ask Al Hirt, who had to write out his "improvisations" and then memorize them to play them. Yet, somehow, he managed to get that honey in the horn.

You gotta love this musical elitism.

“I can sight read; you cannot. Ergo, you are “someone who wants to play 3 chord oldies as a hobby on weekends”, or someone for whom “it means nothing more than "I get paid to play".

You get 'paid to play' because someone hires you. You get hired because you play well, and can keep a crowd happy. Those who can, do. Those who cannot denigrate those who can.

I've never lost a job because I couldn't read sheet music. (but then, I'm not a 'professional' musician – I don't have a tour bus).

You probably want to address that!!!

You may have never lost one, as in "been fired from", but how many do you not get considered for, things like Wrecking Crew type studio work, because you can't? That was the point. You crossed several of my thoughts to get to that conclusion of elitism.

Those 3 chord oldies players probably all play better than I do. (That in itself is not that hard to do.) But will they get a call from musicians local 4 because Lever Brothers or Purina or Pillsbury has a new ad campaign and they need a studio band to play the music for the commercials if they can't read the sheet music? (Disclaimer: I only got one of those calls in my life, and that was in 1991. Made $400 for 3 hours studio time, 40 minutes actual work, to do some sound effects on a synthesizer.) That was what I wanted to be when I grew up. Unfortunately I am not good enough to be that. Those same 3 chord oldies players may love what they do to pieces. God bless them for finding what makes them happy. I want to write hits that get blasted on every radio station in the free world. That would make me happy. It's not the same skill set. I am also realistic enough to grasp the concept that it isn't going to happen, but I'll keep trying. I have no idea whatsoever about how I get the real people to hear my writing, and if it costs money I won't do it. (AADD, anal retentive, OCD, AND cheap!!!)

My best music days are behind me, and I accept that. However, what I know about music, the theory and such, I don't have to give that back. I get to keep all of that. Retiree carpenters still know how to make good rabbet joints even if they don't build furniture anymore.

Elitism? I think not. Just a skill set I was taught at an early age.

Not much “Wrecking Crew type studio work” around these parts. Is there a lot of that in Cleveland? Who knew?

"Context" boys and girls, "Context".

I play the odd amateur musical here and there (about 25 of 'em in the last 7 years) and you can bet that if I couldn't READ I would never get the gig. I love musicals, they are sooo much fun and very challenging; time signature changes bar on bar sometimes, key signature changes sometimes every 4 or 8 bars, listening to the other musicians AND the performers on stage (who I often can't see) AND above all, watching the conductor all while blowin' my horn. And I get it easy - I will never understand how the pianists do their parts, I only ever have ONE note to play at a time, they might have EIGHT.

BUT, I also play every Wednesday at a local beach, improvising over old standards and newer (not new, but newer) songs that the crowd like.

Both contexts are entertainment for the punters and both use different skill sets. I'm just grateful my improvisational skills have reached the point where they don't throw rotten tomatoes at me!

I know people who can sight read "fly spots", and I know people who can play by ear and improvise like virtuoso's. The depressing part is some of them are the same people. Many of 'em are only kids (under around 25), all of 'em are musicians.

What is "A lot"? 8 hours a day every day? No, there is not that. There's SOME though. Bands doing CDs that don't have a guitar player, or a sax player, or whatever player, or solo guys like a lot of us are bring in people to play parts. Usually there are at least chord charts if not full out scripted parts on staff paper. There are studios here that do commercials and voice overs that need musicians to play backing tracks. A video studio near my home does a lot of technical video overdubbing. There was a project they did for an environmental and recycling company several years back where they needed synth work done. It ranged from happy little flute music as birds frolicked in a birdbath and fish swam and kid splayed in a park to the cliche ominous "duh duh duuuhhhh" and tympani banging when they cut to the scene of polluted water running out of sewer pipes into rivers and such. That didn't pay well enough to buy a new Hummer, but it was okay. It's there if you look for it. Now, could what I did for that session translate into entertaining a room full of people? Nope. It was strictly background music, and I don't even know if what I contributed made it past editing. And I don't care. The check cleared. Every major city has that kind of work.

I've been in a few studios, but never in Cleveland. It's good to know it's such a recording center.

The Hall of Fame is here for a reason, baby!!1

There are several good studios here, but people tend to use SUMA, about 40 miles east of Cleveland. It's an old mansion that some chemist built in the 1920s. Grand Funk did Closer To Home there, and the gold record still hangs in the lobby. The rooms were turned into isolation rooms and the sound in there is great. The James Gang recorded there, and the black Keys. A lot of local acts that were right on that fringe of being big nationally used them too. The original engineer, Ken Hamann, has passed away but his son Paul had brought the place into the digital age and they are always booked.

Here's a link to a story about the place. Mainly for the pictures.

SUMA recording article

I want a web site that I can talk to so I don't have to read or write.

I sorta know how to read and write but don't enjoy it too much.

Oh, and I sorta kinda know how to read and write music but it is more fun to just play, well until I need to read and write, then I just grin and do the work...sorry for the four letter word...work...lol

Re: Playing By Ear Versus Sight Reading....this is actually not a contest...us versus them...there is plenty of room for those who do and those who don't and those who do both.

This would be a fairly mundane world if we were all the same. I like to be supportive of everyone to the extent that I can. Some days I do a better job of that than others. And yes, I can walk on water, but only when I fall off the skis and the boat is going really fast and not for very long...lollol

Cheers,

Billy

There used to be a very nice studio here in the Fort Pierce FL area. (There are a little more than 40k people in the city and there are some neighboring communities.) I got a lot of work because I could read music. I also got work because I have good ears.

The owner/engineer had a stroke and closed the studio. I miss it.

If you have both skills, you will be a better musician and have more opportunities.

Whenever a thread like this opens up, there are some who get defensive about their lack of ability to read music. There are also posts that dis people that can only read music and not play by ear.

If you feel inferior because you don't read music, instead of defending your position, learn to read. If you are not bothered by your inability to read music, there's no problem.

There have been a lot and still are some illiterate people who can speak their native language well. But by not learning how to read and write, they are handicapped in a literate society.

No, reading music and learning at least basic music theory are not requirements to be a pro musician. But they are important tools for any musician to have, pro or amateur.

IMHO it's not an either/or situation. If you are serious about your instrument, learn to do both. If you are not that serious about it, don't worry about it, but please don't dis those who do, and don't try to defend your position. It's OK. We all have different levels of commitment.

For me, music is a lifetime of learning. If I could live to be 200 years old, there would still be things to learn about music. But that's me. It's not for everyone.

Insights and incites by Notes

"...feel inferior..." ?

Incredible.

If not, why try to defend? That's the message I get.

Communication can send/recieve the wrong message, and if have misinterpreted it, you have my sincere apology.

Notes

The word 'versus' in the title of the thread implies an 'or' function. Both are important.

I get what you are saying Scott but I don't know how else he could have worded that in the thread title. The body of the message kind of smooths it out some.

The point I tried to make and someone took offense to was that if you can read more types of work become available. If you live in an area where there is no studio work, no recording studios, and you have to drive 4 hours to buy milk and bread I understand that all you do is live gig, and possibly also all you do it copy from CDs. In that case, yes, learn by ear. In a different situation, where you get a call to go do a session for 1 minute of music that will play behind a commercial, or 20 minutes of music that will play behind a travel show, you will have to read charts. If you can't read, you can't apply for that job.

My analogy is that if someone grows up speaking Spanish but never goes to school and learns how to read and write, would that person be a candidate for a job teaching Spanish in school? They may speak flawless Spanish, but at some point they would have to write out tests and be able to read those tests to grade them. If they can't read or write, they don't get the job. In no way is that saying they are less of a Spanish speaker, just that they can't read or write it.