I have gone through many stomp boxes, with my acoustic guitar, to try to get a good sound. I finally got tired of changing batteries and lots of cables linking them together, and bought a Yamaha fx-500. It has alot of effects built in with presets and user areas. I have spent many hours tweeking effects, and not alot of time happy with the results. I'm thinking compression, chorus, and delay are the ones that I probably need to dial in for the kind of sound I'm looking for. I have searched the web for the "secret" settings to get that cool, fat, hot. . . responsive sound. It is hard to put into words. I have a link I am going to put at the bottom of this, for a sound that is pretty close to what I am after. I was hoping some of you might recognize the effect by ear, or may want to share how you effect your guitars for your stuff. I am tired of searching, and tweeking and coming up with something, ok. . . but not great. Listen to the link if you have time to give you an idea of where I'm going with this, and maybe share what you think will give me that sound. Steven Stills also has it in his song Treetop Flyer. It is on youtube. It's the live version. I can post that link if you want.
Thank you for your time.
Gene
http://dalesanders.com/mps/when%20you%20say%20nothin.mp3
Hi Gene
Would not surprise me if He is using nylon strings instead
of usual bronze type,because there is no fret noise?
The rest of the sound is just reverb with a touch of compression.
Depending how you record the guitar makes a lot of difference
as well,using a decent mic and amplifier,but it may be the guitar
was miked up and recorded acoustically.
So many alternate ways of doing things,I share your frustration.
Alan
Gene,
What kind of amp are you using ?
Another person I would look to for information on the sound you seek is Craig Chaquico. I have seen various setups of his described in great detail.
Following is what I would in chasing the ideal. It costs several hundred dollars and requires the services of a luthier, but gives you studio-quality sound in any situation. I do not address amplifiers as I go direct to the board when playing live.
I look first at how the guitar itself is set up. The frets have a tremendous effect on a guitar's sound. I had my Alvarez-Yairi D-41 copy refretted in the early 80s after reading an article on Ry Cooder in which he said he achieved a bell-like Strat sound in his Takamine electric-acoustic by going to wide or "fat" frets. I began to see some of that difference. (I also had to re-read the short paragraph in the article before I fully believed that he was describing that sound coming out of an acoustic instrument.) Of course, refretting is only if you want that extra resonance, but I recommend having your guitar's action adjusted for your gauge strings and the frets dressed if you have never had this done.
Next is the string sound. Stephen Stills and I use bell-bronze wound strings, and likely Chaquico as well. I have used nothing but Dean Markley bronze-wound steel strings since I bought my guitar from him in 1972. At the time there was nothing comparable; now it's loyalty. FRESH strings are important. When I was gigging regularly I changed strings daily. In the studio I did so more often.
Last thing I would do to the guitar itself in seeking that ideal acoustic sound would be to have my acoustic miked internally (that's what I said) AND have a palathetic* pickup installed under the bridge, with a mixing panel installed on the guitar. This was an entirely custom technique when it was written up many years ago in Guitar Player, but I'm willing to bet there are kits out there now with the electronics included. At the time it took a custom preamp and mixer mounted in the guitar. The internal mic gets all the nuances of the wood, but omits much of the finger sound.
NOW we get to the effects. Digital is a given, being infinitely flexible and near silent. Reverb, yes. Dale Sanders and Craig Chaquico both use chorus; I'm not certain that Stills was. Light compression can add to the 'sheen', but is only necessary if you lack an even right-hand technique or want added sustain. Otherwise I might consider an expander for that "hot" sound you describe.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. HTH,
R.
*This is the type used in Takamine brand acoustic electrics. They differ from standard piezo pickups in that they sense motion in three axes, whereas a piezo does so only in two. It adds a subtle but significant dimension to the sound.
Hi guitarman;
I know it is not nylon in this case.
Powderman;
I do not use an amp, I go directly in to the board.
Ryz;
Very interesting. I expected a big explaination on effects, but you went another direction. The guitar itself. Makes perfect sense. Right now I have a Fender acoustic, and a Yamaha (that I traded an ovation for, didn't like all the plastic). The Yamaha came with a bridge mounted pickup. I don't know how to tell if it is the kind of which you speak. I also added another one. Don't recall the brand, but it was round, about the size of a quarter. I found the sweet spot, and stuck it on the inside at the same place. Sometimes I run two cords and mix them for some pretty good sounds. I have always used Martin Marquis strings, fresh. I had a great Takamine 12 string, but sold it. Dum move. . . Maybe I will start by getting the Yamaha into the guitar tech, and have him work it over. Then at least that end of things would be covered. I have all the usual effects, and can put them in any order, if I want to break the usual audio chain theory, even parallel with stereo out. I swear, sometimes just knowing what to add, and how much is an art on to itself.
Gene
We used that Yammie effect box back in the late 80's, early 90's
While it was pretty good for its purpose, we struggled with getting some sounds we were after. This may be the case with you. It has some neat sounds, especially for electric guitar, but is not an 'ace of all trades' box in my opinion.
If I remember correctly, it doesn't have an XLR input so you must be using the pickups, which may be part of your struggle. That sound may be easier to get by using a mic, so you can control the body resonance easier.
Another thought - I can email the guy who owns the one we used, as he is a guitar player too, and see if he has anything programmed in his already that is close.
Stop using the commonly included piezo undersaddle bridge pickup. Kill the quack.
Replace it with an LR Baggs I-Beam pickup, for about a hundred dollars US, most times can be connected to the existing built in preamp box.
That's the first step.
As for your examples cited, the one you posted certainly has a bit of phase shifter in it, what kind and its settings is the unknown here, could be anything from a stompbox to one of those Acoustic Guitar Amplifiers with built in effects and multiple speakers ala the Fender Acoustics.
Steve Stills, the live version came up first on youtube for me, that is almost certainly a very good /D-45 with a Baggs I-Beam or similar pickup in it. No phase shift that I could hear, at least not from electronics, just a doggone good sound system and engineer.
The venrable old Yamaha AG Stomp pedal with the Baggs pickup might prove to be a satisfying combination for you, not only for recording, but for reproducing the sound you recorded in live performance easily.
--Mac
On my Larrivee, I have an LR Baggs, under saddle, with the notch filter system, It all starts with a quality guitar of course. When I want live fx, I use a phase shifter I use the Behringer, but the MXR is probably better. I set it to minimum settings, just to get a hint of the effect. I usually run the guitar thru a compressor first, I have found that my Ashdown bass compressor works best for my liking. Its a dual band compressor and allows me to adjust for the sound I want.
For recording, I usually record direct to board dry, and use plugins, or I will mic the guitary with two condensers into two channels and eq them and pan them differently. Of course this is for serious work only, usually im to lazy to do all that set up in my limited space. I used do go to the vocal booth with a C-414 and play the accoustic stuff that way, but I don't do much studio stuff anymore and don't have a vocal booth.
Just keep experimenting with simple setups until you find the sound you like. I have found that for accoustic, the guitar makes the difference. It is after all an accoustic guitar. Fx are just afterthoughts and should be used only when and where they are needed.
If you want to record using a built in acoustic pickup, or perform live with one, the Bagss I-Beam is THE way to go, man.
--Mac
Sounds like a Godin Multiac.
I agree with Mac on all accounts. Although I've been using the same Dean Markley pick-up for almost 30 years now and still works great.
The Martin strings are great. Just have the action set for that brand and the gauge you use; most techs will do it for between $35-$50. Fret dressing is a little extra, but worth it. Refretting is a whole 'nother deal, of course, but it changed my whole acoustic sound. I highly recommend it.
The Baggs pickup is more current than my knowledge and is certainly the way to go. I would still take a hard look at that internal mic in addition. It adds a dimension that no pickup can. You're already used to running two cords, so if you can't get it as an integrated install (but I'd try, using a three-conductor end-pin jack and cord) you're ready to go.
Mac's comment about the phase shifter surprised me, but I rarely doubt him. Each level of time-domain effect--phase shifter, flanger, and chorus--is characterized by a longer delay time and correspondingly smoother sound. I've never heard a PS that smooth--I'd love to know who makes it. Anyway, look up Chaquico's acoustic rig; I am certain he will have good pointers for you.
You're asking the right questions. Keep at it and one of these days we'll be looking up your rig.
R.
Digital phase shift.
An A-D followed by Digital Signal Processing.
Its all in the numbers then.
Saaome of them actually clone the digital track and simply time-shift the clone as it plays along with the original sig. In that fashion you can control the amplitude of either in a very tight blend.
--Mac
I really recommend you give Mac's advice a serious consideration. I too was looking for the holy grail of sound, keeping in mind your personal touch plays a huge part. I have a Tanglewood C45 that has great acoustic sound and action. I played 6 of the same model before settling on my choice. As I said acoustically the sound is great! However the pickup sound sucked big time. On this same forum Mac recommended the LR Baggs I Beam pickup, so I bought one. I simply removed the Fishman piezo from under the bridge, installed the Baggs and connected it to the Fishman controls. The sound is great. Sometimes I D.I. it, sometimes I D.I. and mike it, and sometimes I play it straight through my amp. I any event any configuration I use my guitar sounds great. Thanks Mac.
Dennis
Well, thank all of you for sharing your thoughts. I know capturing the acoustic guitar sound is worth putting some time into. For instance, one guy that used to record me mic'd the guitar straight toward the hole like we have all seen, then he took another mic and pointed it straight down from the top about even with the hole. I had never seen that before. Then mixed them together for a good sound.
I may have to retire my fx-500, it is very old, and kind of noisy anyway. I had to hardwire the power switch to "on" years ago, all the ins go right to the board. Not really a well built unit.
Mac said about $100. for the LR Baggs I beam.
Ok I will look for this I Beam thing on Musician's friend, or locally, and see what happens. I have been an acoustic player for much longer than electric, so I just want to put all my effort in to that of course. I get too ranchy when I play electric. I don't know how to play to clean. Probably from my rock and roll daze.
Well thank you guys for sharing your secrets, it is helpful.
Gene
Don't know if you'll find one at The Fiend, but take a look.
I get my guitar parts from StewMac mostly.
The Ibeam search brought this up on the StewMac website. Note that there are two versions there, the first is just the pickup by itself, which can be installed under the bridgeplate using the sticky tape provided, follow their directions, then cut the jack off of the end if you have a built in piezo preamp and attach the pickup wires to the same point where the original undersaddle piezo pickup connected.
The second one includes their preamp, for use with guitars that don't have a built in preamp already, or perhaps with a guitar that has a less than stellar preamp in it.
--Mac
Effect chain on the linked track sure sounds like compression and then some chorus, and then reverb to me. The sound is a little too 'watery' to my ears for it to be a simple delayed copy - sorry to disagree with others on that point here. The giveaway is the very last strummed chord. That's chorus or even a flanger there without a doubt.
Also sounds like some OLD strings, or the highs rolled off quite a bit. I think it could be a piezo under saddle transducer, with the highs dialed out to get rid of the quack.
An I-beam will sound much better than this particular song example; at least all by itself. I-beams do a decent job letting one hear what the guitar actually sounds like. This recording is just the sound of the pickup - could even be a soundhole magnetic pickup by the sound of it. There's no 'wood' to the sound.
-Scott
Mac and rockstar;
Thanks for the input. I just might get the one with the preamp. I have always had a brassy sound to my acoustic recordings. No matter how I eq'd. I was actually looking for more of a ballsy, mid tone woody sound, but yet with some definite "responsive-ness" to the strings. Kind of like you could hear when I just layed my hands on the strings. Not just over amplified, but with resonance. Hard to put in words, but when I hear it, when someone plays, I always ask what they are using. But you know, it's like it's some big industry secret. It's not like they won't get anymore gigs, because they shared their settings.
I'm not going to use it all the time, because I do like the "string" sound. This is definitely electronic in nature I guess, by that I mean "effected acoustic guitar". I just never could figure out what and how much.
Anyway, thank you all, and Mac, for the link.
Gene
Gene, I have one tip for you, that I learned years back from a great guitarist.
The subject at the time was Telecasters, but that makes no difference.
I asked the fellow about his settings and all because we were both basically using the same guitar and amp setup at the time, his sounded smooth and mine, well, I was always fighting the thing.
He said this: "Just mess with everything until you get it where it feels like you are playing acoustic guitar."
I said, rather naively, "FEELS?"
Thinking that listening was more appropriate.
He said, "Yup, if you can make any amplified guitar respond in feel as if it were a good acoustic without an amp does, then it will sound good."
That bit of advice led me to be more concerned about the feel of the note sustains in the actual guitar than the sound coming out of the amp and with a bit of experiment and practice at it, really works well for me.
Along the way I also found out that an amp sitting on the floor doesn't allow me to get that feel as easily as an amp that is raised. First time, I put the amp on one of the club's chairs. Worked. So I picked up a folding amp stand.
The same applies to the amplified acoustic flattop, maybe moreso. Try to set the amp's gain and EQ such that the amplified guit FEELS like it does when unamplified in an intimate environment at home.
This one works like a charm in the studio, too. If I can get that feel thing happenin' then the tracking engineer has a very easy job of things. In the studio this also involves very careful tweaking of the monitoring (headphone feed typically) also.
--Mac
Mac;
Thanks for that. I was a sound man for a large casino a few years back. I had the pleasure of meeting all the acts, and setting them up. We had racks for their amps that put them up at about knee level, and angled back. We originally did it to keep the guitar players from knocking the head off of the pit boss. (who was a pit bull!) The players actually liked it once they tried it because sound being very directional, was coming more toward their ears now.
That is some good advice about the feel. I will try that. I have an amp, but live in an apartment right now until my divorce is final, and then I will see if I have enough money left (!) to get back into a house. So I have been going right into the board lately, but some of the adjustment settings you mentioned could still apply.
Thanks, as always. You are knowledgable in many areas it seems.
Gene
Mac's comment about the unamplified sound of an electric guitar triggered a memory.
When I got my Roland VG-88 "V-Guitar" it was necessary to install the GK-3 divided pickup on my solid body electric. Calibrating this pickup requires adjustments so fine that they tell you that the backing on the double-stick tape is 0.1 mm in thickness and to take that into account when making measurements. My micrometer is only good to 0.005" and was barely adequate for the job.
My guitar is an Ibanez Roadstar II from the late 80s. I bought it as a cheap alternative to a Strat, but it never sounded all that good in that respect, and I've never had the dough or the will to replace it; it just 'played the notes'. In the process of setting up the synth it was necessary to do a proper setup on the action--string height, length, whammy--everything.
I THOUGHT I had done this in the past, but as I worked and listened the Strat sound that I had missed for 20 years began to reveal itself while the guitar was on the bench--without amplification. By the time I was through, my $200 used copy had the classic Strat honk when played through my little Fender amp. It's the best it has ever sounded or played. Other musicians have commented on it, too. (And I'm embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out.)
The importance of having your guitar set up properly cannot be overemphasized.
R.
It sure sounds like a phase shifter, but I'm thinking he's going through an effects box I know Roland makes a modeling effects box for acoustic guitar - there may be some stomp boxes that could produce that effect - there are so many out there? Could also be like a computer - Guitar Rig or one of those. Sounds like the treble is pulled down to get the nylon sound (which could also be part of the effect) and you can hear him damping the strings pretty hard with the palm of his hand, probably to keep the effects from being too pronounced as it sounds like he has a lot of the effect going on and it seems to feedback and battle with the rhythm of his picking at times.
I know what you guys mean. It goes on, and on. Now I don't know whether or not to get a different acoustic, before I start all this, or not. I could sink money into my Fender or Yamaha, now that I have some answers, or just buy a better guitar, and then use all this knowledge? That would open up a brand new thread, that would go on forever, if I dared ask what kind of guitar to get. Ha Ha. . . not going there. I did get a nice tax return, I could buy a Martin, but do I really need to. I'm the kind of guy that would rather take a road worn medium quality guitar, and give it what it needs with after market TLC to end up with something that I like. I have taken many ugly electrics, and added a Floyd Rose and Grovers, and active pick ups. . . Repainted them, and really felt a sense of pride with the sound. I'll never forget the time I bought the electric Eddie Van Halen plays, with the wierd head piece that comes to a point? What a piece of C R # $. (no offense to anyone who might own one).
Well, the Quest goes on. This year I'm gonna figure out everything that has been nagging me.
Gene
Gene-I listen to many guitar players. The things that I have learned are-
Use a good PA-gives a nice natural stereo sound-if you can't do that a stereo pedal.
A chorus pedal/phase shift/reverb/
With these simple things you should be able to get the sound you are looking for.
For me I find after a while I get tired of those effects. I'm leaning towards a nice warm acoustic sound which comes from a great guitar.
Luvs3rds,
The sound that is in the song snippet you posted could have come from a well under $500 guitar. If that is the sound you are looking for, please do not spend the money on an expensive acoustic at this point in time.
It sounds like you have two different acoustic guitars, a Fender and a Yamaha.
I think that the sound you posted is coming from likely a removable soundhole pickup.
Take your two guitars to a local shop where they sell removable soundhole pickups. Make sure the guitars are setup by a well-known luthier in the area first. Then ssk to try the pickups aon your two guitars, into a signal chain that first EQ's the signal, then compresses the signal, then passes it through a touch of chorus and then light reverb.
Your two acoustics will take on some magic you probably haven't heard before.
Based on the sound posted, I have no idea what kind of guitar that the player had that you posted. There is no character of an acoustic guitar there to tell what it might be. Can't tell whether it's a dreadnaught, grand concert, etc. It could even be an electric guitar through one of those acoustic guitar simulator circuits because it sounds so 'unnatural' as an acoustic guitar.
Now, if you do start playing a higher end acoustic guitar, you WILL hear a difference compared to a sub-$500 guitar, all other things being equal (new strings, both guitars setup properly, etc.) with it's acoustic, unplugged sound. But the sound you will hear will bear no similarity to the sound in the song you posted. You may fall in love with the real sound of a delightful acoustic guitar. That is a different matter altogether, but it will not sound like the sound that you posted.
I believe we are in a golden age of well-crafted beautiful sounding acoustic guitars. I'm not saying that this is as good as it gets, but there are so many different brands out there in the $500-$1500 range that have simply killer sounding acoustics, each with their own beauty and purpose, that it is very difficult to choose.
I'm partial to the Larrivee brand for many reasons - not the least of which was getting a personal tour of their Oxnard, CA factory from Jean Larrivee himself back 5 or 6 years ago. I've seen how those guitars are made first hand.
But there are many others out there. Beware of Martin and Taylor. You will pay a premium for those names; perhaps 15-25% than an similarly equipped Larrivee or Seagull, or (fill in the blank). They have well-earned name recognition that commands a price. I love both Martins and Taylors, for different reasons, but I think they are overpriced these days.
-Scott
Quote:
Luvs3rds, Based on the sound posted, I have no idea what kind of guitar that the player had that you posted.
I went to Dale's site. In every picture he is holding an Ovation acoustic steel string without electronics, so he is either micing it or using a soundhole pickup.
Quote:
. . . there are many others out there. Beware of Martin and Taylor. You will pay a premium for those names; perhaps 15-25% [more] than a similarly equipped Larrivee or Seagull, or (fill in the blank). They have well-earned name recognition that commands a price. I love both Martins and Taylors, for different reasons, but I think they are overpriced these days.
-Scott
Alvarez-Yairi is essentially a custom-shop Alvarez and still represents a tremendous bargain. I bought mine from Dean Markley himself when he had a small shop in Santa Clara, CA, saying that I wanted the guitar that was going to last me the rest of my life. He put it in my hands in 1972 and I still have it.
Takamines are still a tremendous value and use that palathetic pickup they first put into the mass production marketplace and which, if you aren't installing a Baggs, is the way to go. (I traded an acoustic Takamine 12-string for my first PC and am still wondering about that deal. I got my money's worth, but that thing played perfectly right off the music-shop peg . . .) There are many great values in the $500-$1000 range, but again, if yours are properly set u they may be all you need, at least for playing live.
R.
Quote:
For me I find after a while I get tired of those effects. I'm leaning towards a nice warm acoustic sound which comes from a great guitar.
AMEN, Ed!
--Mac
Ryszard,
Very cool story about your Yairi. Regarding Ovations, it's kind of hard to tell when they are 'lectrified' from photos because they did a decent job hiding the knobs and jack. For example, on my shallow bowl Applause (Kind of like Ovation's "Squier"), the volume and tone control knobs rested in the waist between the upper and lower bouts, and the jack was not a typical end-pin jack. It came off the back of the bowl, kind of between the lower bout and the end pin. Ovations and Applause guitars kind of tip up towards your face when you wear them (at least on me), so the cord that would be plugged in points almost directly toward the floor.
Anyway, I ruined that guitar and it was providential - it lead me to Larrivee in the end and also to wider necks in general. My Applause had a neck that was probably modeled after a Strat.
Luvs3rds - best wishes. Get those Fender and Yamahas setup by a decent luthier first.
I think I will. I didn't even consider any of that stuff. I always just replaced strings, and thought all was good. I'm learning that guitars "off the shelf" can be enhanced considerably.
Gene
I play a 1981 Ovation Baladeer that, to me, sounds fantastic. Projects very loud and clear, with surprisingly good bass tones. ( never known for there low end) For really mellow sound with great...I mean great lows....I play a 1992 Guild. Action's not nearly as good as the Ovation, but it sounds great for rhythm.
I don't guitar at all.
I don't get makin' an accoustic guitar electric, I'm maybe too old.
Accoustic guitar in a small venue is environ-mentally friendly. Takes no coal to make it run.
The whole concept sounds wierd to me. Kinda like asking someone to take a 12 foot grand and make it electric.
When I was a kid my dad did the sound for the church who had the service taped and played back the next week on the radio. He put one big silver mike under the piano and another under the tilted up lid. 10 mics, a mixing board and tape drives.
Still remember my 2 brothers and i sitting beside my Mom, and Dad was up in the 'control' room and about 2 minutes before church started he turned on the system only to pick up the local rock and roll station playing Buddy Holly. He turned it down and ran down and pulled mics until the radio went away. Brought out a different cord for the mic and never heard that radio again.
I can still get the local radio on my keyboard if I hook it up just so. Drives me nuts, but I've learned to use the headphone jack not the Left line out, that's the radio reciever!
All this probably goes back to the hippy chick with the 12 string she played in the park while we sang blowin in the wind....Mom wanted to buy her a bra LOL. I liked that summer a lot. See some of do remember a bit of the '60's! Just Joe Cocker can't be one of them.....
If the guitar had a 12 foot sounding board like your rather large Grand Piano, it likely wouldn't need amplification either...
Ya, 1965, Dylan ruined guitar playing.
Early Everly Bros, Peter Paul and Mary, Lightfoot, et al. Then we got overamped, screaching.
I understand that you can't do acoustic in front of 20,000 people in central park without a mic but holy heck I hated it when Hendrix turned the American Anthem into a whacked out drug infested..never mind, you guitar players all probably liked that.
I took a video recorder to a cover band I was playing in and listened to each song, made some suggestions and just dropped out. As hard as I tried the bass guitar guy just cranked and the lead guitar guy cranked and then the other and back and forth and all you could hear was noise.
Something to be said for hearing the frets and a real accoustic guitar played by someone who has the thing down.
And even the big ol' grand can be muted..about 4 ways.
My upright has 4 inches of foam behind it between the piano and the wall for a reason.
I have run into venues where their acoustic piano won't play the hall due to the configuration. And I drag out the amps and the Roland, but it's still too loud at the front and not enough at the back and the audience has 1/2 the people with hearing aids running out the back door. The other half can't hear properly.
I guess that's part of playing in the 60's and being old. Means everyone in the room is 60 to 70. And like me awake at 4 am 'cause it's gonna storm and my knees ache.
I appreciate all the informative responses from all of you. I found the original of Tree Top flier by Stills, that is closer to the sound I can not find. I don't expect everyone to reiterate everything that was said above. I did read them all.
The sound is sort of a boing, rounded sound. Sounds like compression maybe to take the brashness out of the treble of the strings.
Listen where he solos at about 2:00 minutes. It is very clear there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duAn9ZBgD6k&feature=relatedGene
Luvs3rds,
That is a little more of a mic'ed guitar sound. In fact, it's possible that it is mostly mic'ed and only a little bit of a direct from piezo-under saddle transducer. One thing is sure, there is either a delay'ed doubled track, or chorus applied to the sound. There is some compression as you expected.
Again, I think you can probably accomplish a sound similar to this with either one of your existing acoustic guitars because the sound is so heavily processed - there is very little character of the acoustic guitar's 'acoustic-ness' in the sound.
Do you have any pickups in either one of your guitars? Note the difference between this sound and the first post you made. With this one, there is more string squeak that sounds like it came through the air rather than through the strings. That's coming from a mic most likely. The 'snappy/plasticky' sound sounds more like it's coming from an under saddle transducer pickup. I'm guessing this was even a thin-body acoustic/electric type of guitar because the low end is all strings and no body resonance of the guitar. Or the recording engineer had the mic up by the fretting hand and rolled off the lows.
-Scott
That's a studio cut.
Sounds like a large diaphragm condenser mic (likely more'n one) in a very well acoustically prepared room. Thru a super mic preamp. Onto analog tape.
And that is almost certainly Stills' famous D-45 at work.
And some high end effects gear in rack...
--Mac
Rockstar and Mac;
Ok. Thank you for your opinions. My Yammy has two pickups, one under the bridge, and a round one I put in front of the bridge underneath. My Fender has nothing. I think I will run the Fender thru the shop to set it up by a luthier, and order a Baggs for it. Then I can try various hook ups as mentioned above, and see what comes of it.
Thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. I read each and every one, more than once. You guys are truly a wealth of information.
Gene
Quote:
Stills:
"There are guitars where because of the chording technique and the attack on the G string, when you play a D chord, it'll get out of tune. So I use a Gretsch with the biggest strings, a wound third string. Solves the whole problem. Once they start putting pickups on my 50-year old guitars, rather than using the damn microphone, I don't care if it's the Forum or Yankee Stadium, once they start doing that, I might as well play on the electric guitar, where I know what's going to happen. The difference in sound is not that great. They put an eight-ounce piece of plastic in the sound-hole of my 58-year old Martin D-45 - which is worth about $15,000.-$20,000. - to make is sound good in the hall. And I said, "Hang on. Wait just one minute here. You've got this all wrong. Your job is to reproduce that sound in the hall, the sound of that instrument." I paid $6000. dollars for a guitar that was not really worth it, but they only made 125 before World War II. I have two of the best that they made. It's as simple as that. The sound man's job is not to mess with that. Find a little contact pickup if you want, but use it in conjunction with the microphone. In the studio, I use a Neumann 87 or a Telefunken, or an AKG, or a 546, or all four to reproduce the sound of this particular guitar. There are some other devices used the way I set my limiters. What kind of limiters I use, what kind of equalization, how much Poltec and how much of that, those are my main trade secrets. Where the trick is, which all the engineers and producers lose sight of, is that you have to reproduce a guitar."
" I use Fender Rock ‘n’ Rolls, light gauge or extra-light gauge and bronze Earthworks for my acoustics I have one set of pre-CBS Fender flatwounds for my basses. I use “silk and steels,” and Savarez for my Spanish guitar. When I do use a flat pick, I usually use a thin one and my fingers to play bass. Rotosound bass strings aren’t bad. I keep bass strings on for a year, if not longer, and that’s about all."
Well, If I'm Steven Stills, and I'm paying thousands of dollars for acoustic guitar, no matter what brand, I would be firing the recording engineer who wrecked the sound of those guitars with the processing. Everything that he rants about using pickups rather than mics in D. Tuna's post is what sounds wonky with his guitar in the youtube video.
Here's live concert footage with an end-pin jack in place and it's nearly the same exact sound. Missing some mic'ed string squeak is about the only difference to the previous YouTube. Maybe there's one of those little condenser's inside, but it sounds mostly pickup to me. From the looks of the haircuts, I'm guessing this pre-dates internal condenser mics in general. It's all that farty and 'acky' snap sound and doubled or chorused. I'd lay money that endpin jack has a Fishman style UST on the business end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUmIO_MG5IU&feature=relatedIt just doesn't sound like the way an acoustic guitar should to me. I would love to hear that Martin naturally, rather than through a pickup. No doubt he's a good player, but the beauty of the ancient slothead Martin is completely and totally gone in both of these clips. Great playing, but it likely wouldn't sound any different on a sub $500 Yamaha with Stephen at the helm given the same exact signal chain.
To hear a more acoustic sound, the KEL microphones page has some decent sound clips. Here's one:
http://www.kelaudio.com/acoustic_full_mix.mp3Those guitars sound much more expensive to me than the Stills examples. You can almost hear the 'wood' in the sound. Can almost guarantee that they aren't multi-thousand dollar collector pieces either.
Here's another one in a style that isn't terribly different than the Stills song:
http://www.kelaudio.com/hm1xyacoustic1.mp3Gene - you can get very close to the Stills sound, playing ability aside, with the I-beam you plan to buy. In fact, you can get a better sound than that from it. If you are really looking for the electrified sound that these have - the signal chain of Compression/EQ, or EQ/Compression then a doubler either from a very short delay or a chorus will serve you well. You should also be able to get it with the Yamaha. I don't know what kind of pickup is 'the round one in front of the bridge'. Key settings will be the EQ you choose, the level of compression you choose and the delay setting to get the doubled 'fat' sound.
Here's a better guitar than the yamaha / fenders, but certainly not in the Still's league - with a K+K bridge-plate transducer into a K+K preamp, not mic'ed whatsoever. With the LR Baggs, you'll get something pretty similar. With this recording, the only thing that isn't quite 'natural' is the little-bit-too-loud bass response you hear sometimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbWWgLUjCY The video was made by one of the regular guys over at the Larrivee forums.
To Still's point in his rant, I've seen large diaphragm condensers used in live performance to get a real acoustic sound. Last year when Allison Krauss and Union Station played in Detroit, they used one for some of the songs. You'll seem 'em on Austin City Limits quite often with players that are sitting and not alot of guitar amps and drums around to bleed in to the sides of the polar pattern.
-Scott
The first vid posted is definitely NOT Steve's prewar D-45.
Maybe a new Martin with factory p/u from the sound (and look) of it.
--Mac