I long ago stumbled onto Pianoteq

Up until that time I was very happy with Coyote Forte for Piano. Still am for quick GM use. But Pianoteq blew me away. Night and day difference. So Piano in my DAW - is Pianoteq.

Then came a great sale on SampleTank 3 and the promise of an even better piano. Well that piano was no match for Pianoteq. More important, it was a cautionary note to not spend a lot of money on synth sounds as the improvement does not always meet the cost.

Now I got the bug again. I have been using EZKeys and really like the interface and midi flexibility. It integrates well with my workflow of BIAB and Reaper. But the sale I picked up came only with the Electric Pianos and I am jonesin (is that a word?) for the EZkeys Grand.

Anyone got any experience with Piano VSTi to help me make a decision? Do you have EZKeys Grand that we could exchange a side by side between it and Pianoteq?

Hi, Dan!

I recently got the Classic Electrics from Sweetwater (What a great company! CS as good as PG!) - and because of issues with the original order (long story) I ended up getting the Grand and the Studio Grand, too....

(I got the Funk midi for $9, too! - no-brainer)...

I don't have time at the moment (honey-do list) but later today, I'll put up some examples of the Studio Grand (better than the Grand, I think) as well as other pianos that I have... I've been thinking of doing this anyway... have a new "piano shootout" here on the forum...

I'll also put up a midi file for anyone to download to show off what pianos they have - so they all play the same thing (again, later today)...

hehe - you the man FJ. Great minds think alike.

Have you listened to the IVORY piano collection?

http://synthogy.com/index.php/demos/grand-pianos#A

A piano player I was working with many years ago picked up one of the "lesser" Ivory piano packages and wow....what a difference in the sound quality of her tracks.

It's not cheap.... http://www.musiciansfriend.com/virtual-piano-software/synthogy-ivory-ii-grand-pianos .... but in this case, yes, it is worth the price of admission.

Giving it a listen now - thanks for the referral.




Ouch...

I would love, love, love to have Ivory,,,,, I might even spend more time playing the piano..... but... cost is a concern.

I settled on the Steinburg piano collection from Cakewalk. It's a sampled collection of 10 pianos designed to work with the Cakewalk Sound Center. It sells for $20 last time I looked. You need to run it with Cakewalk Sound Center, which is a synth included with MC7 which also sells for $20 last time I looked. $40 and you get a top notch DAW in the deal.

Not quite as good as the Ivory collection but for a guitar player who occasionally plays a piano part..... it works. Any time you hear ME playing a piano track in my songs, it is the Steinburg Concert Grand #1.

I used it at 3:23 to the end in this song Fools Errand It's fairly easy to hear it since the music is essentially stopped and the piano part is soloed briefly.

Here is a page that we can use to test different pianos.

I have provided a snippet of MIDI that you should be able to download.
It is the opening of one of my songs.
(It was played by Garland Craft who toured with The Oak Ridge Boys for years).

http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm


I have used it to provide the sound of one of the 4Front TruePianos.
If others will use the MIDI file to show other pianos, I will put them up as well....

Send me your piano example. Below is my email address (put it back together)

floyd
@
floydjane.com

At this point, you should see 4 choices...



http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm



TruePiano
Pianoteq (thanks, Dan!)
Studio One (the grand that comes with Studio One Professional)
EZKeys Studio Grand..


Anyone else?

This is a great side by side comparison. Just what I needed to make a decision. I could rank them after only a few minutes of listening. Specially appreciated the ability to balance volumes for a better comparison.

My biggest question was how would EZKeys Studio Grand rank - and I can tell you it was one of my tops! Combine this with the midi content provided in the EZKeys package and it makes my decision easier.

Thanks for playing along FJ. Lets see what else we get.

Oh boy. What a question. Go here and read about this subject for days:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2708316/1

This is just one thread on Keyboard Corner. After some time on this forum I began to realize a lot of the posters there are true heavyweights. I'll see a little something mentioned about somebody and go, "Holy crap, he was on THAT album?" Or, "He just toured with WHO?"

Even among guys like these, there's no consensus. A lot of it depends on the specific material they're playing at one particular time. It will change for other stuff.

Bob

Oh, by the way for those interested:
Here is what I have so far!

#1, 2 AND 3 and 4 (in no order, would have to listen longer to separate)
TruePiano
Pianoteq
EZKeys Studio Grand
ST3


# 5
Studio One Grand

#6
Dimension Pro

I came to the conclusion many years ago that no one piano sample is the end all to be all. In the same way that one guitar and one amp will never fit every situation. Variety is the spice of life.

One song might need a specific tone that doesn't come close to working for the next song. While I like a sweet concert grand.... there are times when you need the sound of an upright.

Even with the 10 in the Steinburg package I have referenced, the 10 piano's all sound different and fit different usages.

So there's no reason to test one against another because you have to buy them all.

That don't really apply to me cause all the music I make sounds the same.

I passed ST3 on to FJ. I tried to use BIAB to play the midi with Coyote Forte but it would not work? Strange?

It should be out there. It's nice!


http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm

Hey that is nice. I am surprised.

I would ask if you wouldn't mind taking this thread on a short side excursion, though it is related.

I have a little Akai MIDI keyboard on my desk. I only need it to hear an occasional pitch.

It works fine in BIAB, or in a DAW, but unless those are loaded, it makes no sound. Do any of these Virtual Pianos you are discussing work standalone? I want to load one in Windows, and have my Akai keyboard make a sound anytime, no matter what else is running. The ideal program would take very little in computer resources. Sound quality is not important, and all I need is a piano sound. I have searched but not found such a thing.

Thanks!

matt

I also like "Alicia's Keys", available from Native Instruments (as a Kontakt instrument).

I can play my Midiman 49 Keystation as an input directly into both ST3 and EZKeys which both have standalone versions. And I can also play through both as well as the Pianoteq via my DAW. Is that what you are asking? They all sound wonderful with a velocity sensitive keyboard.

Sorry Matt, a little change, but even better news - All three I mentioned have Standalone apps. So I can play my keyboard threw each without loading Reaper or BIAB or RB.

Lets hear it added to the list.

By the way, sorry about some tempo changes caused by me not paying enough attention... Actually sounds good running a little faster but doesn't help the comparison.

Thanks Dan. I'll check prices now.

Matt - as Dan mentioned the EZKeys programs work standalone... they have demo downloads... you just missed the "deal" at Sweetwater - $29.99 for the Classic Electrics... but if you see it again for that, it is certainly worth getting...

IMHO -

PianoTeq gets 1st place, and TruePianos gets 2nd place (of the choices given). HOWEVER, I'm a keyboard player...

For non-keyboard players (i.e. having BIAB play MIDI or dragging in MIDI clips into a DAW and rendering) I would not be surprised if the opinion was that any VSTi would do.

If you are a keyboard player who has played acoustic and if you have a reference point about what an acoustic *should* sound like under difference circumstances (individual keys in/out of tune, new/old piano wire, hammer age/wear, etc.) then you will like the modeled VSTi's because they usually allow you to dial in these variables to taste (esp. PianoTeq).

Also, for players, how the VSTi's react to your use of the damper pedal makes a big difference.

To my ear, the PianoTeq and TruePianos VSTi's 'blossom' in response to the use of the damper pedal. I assume it is because they are calculating on the fly what waveform to be sent based on what notes are currently 'in play' and whether there is resonance from the other un-damped strings.

It is a sound different than room reverb, though. And apparently it is not something the 'rompler' VSTi's can reproduce on the fly because in their case, I assume the sound of the sample is 'baked into' the waveform, and the name of the game is to simply look up a sample to play at a given velocity.

To my ear, the modeled VSTi's have a more 'rolling' and 'evolving' effect, that changes based on how much the 'soundboard' in the VSTi is being driven when the damper pedal is down and allowing notes to sustain.

For the OP, I guess the best thing to do would be to demo as much as you can, in the context of the BIAB song you are mixing, and use your ear as the final judge.

Anyway, my two cents...

Chris

What a nice app Pianoteq is! I installed the demo, just the standalone app, and it's perfect for what I wanted. Sounds great, too. Thanks.

Matt

EDIT (actually have prices now)

TruePianos comes with a standalone app and is on sale for $80 but if you have Jamstix you can cross grade for $29 or if you have valid Sonar 8 or 8.5 SN (or any later CW SN - you email them) you can get it for $56

end EDIT



If you have FULL Kontakt (I'm sure you do) try the SampleTekk offerings (again on sale). I have most Sampletekk offerings. There are even some smaller ones (Steiny D Classic Grand sale $19.50) that are SFZ format (so the free SFZ player from Cakewalk or Plouge work just fine) - that are actually pretty good

I have the others as mentioned well but actually prefer one I have for my Motif XS from KSounds Signature Piano C7.

Trouble with Pianos (especially reading reviews by piano players) - if there are five reviewers then there are at least a dozen opinions. Not being a piano player I've been watching and reading all the piano "holy grail" search starting with HW synths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJH4UoB9z1c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rta1kxD0Pzg

https://brianli.com/ultimate-piano-vst-comparison/

http://www.imperfectsamples.com/website/Samples/fazioliconcertgrand/index.php



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bxrzYwLlUI

...
...
...



Actually I have a really GOOD Fazioli sample set (Akai S1000 format) I got off a close out from East-West "The Ultimate Piano Collection (VOL1) for I think $10!

Good luck (another one you can go broke saving money and while trying to cover all bases)
Larry

I'll post Alicia's Keys, but it may be tomorrow before I get to it.

Just another FYI

if folks want Alicia's Keys then don't forget to check your Native Instruments emails (or spam folders) just got one form NI a few days ago (good to 31 Dec) with a $25 voucher

SO if you want AK's (normally $99) would now only be $74 (with e-voucher - again you can go broke saving money)

Larry

Hey Floyd!

This is a very cool idea! Thanks for setting up these comparisons.

But I have a question. Is everyone outputting their samples the same way? Some of the differences sound like when I apply different mixing/mastering presets and I'd wanna be sure we are apples to apples in the comparison.

I have Synthogy Ivory II Grand Pianos. I did a lot of research before making the decision.

It contains a number of variations of Bosendorfer, German D and C7 - I mainly use C7

Pianoteq was in the list for sure, but Ivory won for me. The library takes about 80Gb of disk space.

(And, yes, I bought it from Sweetwater in the States - telephone order.)

Incidentally, I've also got a Yamaha Conservatorium Grand Piano. Even with this to compare to, Ivory takes a lot of beating. It really is sampled extremely well.

I just sent Floyd an email with 6 more he might want to add to the list.

- AddictiveKeys-StudioGrand.mp3
- GarritanPersonalOrchestra-Steinway.mp3
- Kontakt-ConcertGrand.mp3 (comes with Kontakt in their Factory set)
- Kontakt-ViennaConcertGrand.mp3
- Kontakt-BerlinConcertGrand.mp3
- Kontakt-NewYorkConcertGrand.mp3

Just going through this myself and comparing the ones in my collection is really eye-opening!

- AddictiveKeys-StudioGrand.mp3
- GarritanPersonalOrchestra-Steinway.mp3
- Kontakt-ConcertGrand.mp3 (comes with Kontakt in their Factory set)
- Kontakt-ViennaConcertGrand.mp3
- Kontakt-BerlinConcertGrand.mp3
- Kontakt-NewYorkConcertGrand.mp3
- Alicia Keys

All added.


http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm

I'd love to hear this one (Ivory II GP) in the comparison list.

Just curious.... is anyone doing any sort of EQ to the sample or are they raw wave output?

If I get some down time today, I may take a minute and use the CSC synth with the Steinburg piano (or two) so you can see what $20 gets you.

For my part I picked a piano and hit play/render to wav. No tweaking. I also understand that all the examples are mp3 due to a restriction of the site.

Reaper for me is set to bring in the midi to the current project tempo (default 120) so I guessed on some to adjust to 90.

ST3 has dozens and dozens of pianos. I chose the first one.

Some very nice sounds here. I have indeed gathered a more realistic expectation for what I am looking for.

Each of the packages has it own flavor. Actually, I am surprised I can "hear" the subtle differences. My hearing has been so poor in later years. But apparently my mid and lower tone hearing is still pretty good as this is where the pianos are hitting me.

So I am about to pull the trigger on one of the packages (yes I do need more piano ). I will let you know which one when I do.

These added from Herb...

CSC Grand 1 dry
CSC Grand 1 EQ
CSC Med Grand dry
CSC Rock dry


With this explanation:




http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm

I just matched the tempo and then rendered best quality mp3. No eq. No effects at all.

<kidding>

When will this be in a RealTracks set ?????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDTaH_d8s8c&index=5&list=RDZPO9uXPFRRQ

</kidding>

SO..... kinda curious

What piano sample is everyone's favorite and why?

curious why no one here has mentioned the ONLY virtual piano PG sales, VI Labs Labs Ravenscroft?

While not inexpensive, it is a REALLY good and responsive (IMHO - I'm not piano player) piano and at similar price points to ones mentioned so far

My favorite is Addictive Keys Studio Grand. It sounds most realistic and fullest to me. Maybe I'm partial to it because I have used it on several songs. And it has some incredible variations of the grand, uprights and electrics too! For my money it is best sounding and most versatile!

Most of them are dang good but I didn't care for Dimension Pro or Sanmpletank at all as they both sounded kinda shallow and tinny to me. I have them both but never use them.

My favorite is the one that works best for me in the mix. Sometimes that great sounding solo piano just overshadows the other instruments and I need to find a different one.

With the various sound modules, however, you really can have the best of all worlds. Unfortunately, unlike guitarists, for live playing you can't bring eight or ten acoustic pianos to a gig.

For the non-piano player, as best I can tell only one of the packages provides the midi content and the ability to write piano backings with the piano sound. EZKeys - Studio Grand for me. Now where is the no-brainer sale when you need it?

Many of them seem "serviceable". Especially if "in a mix" with a few other instruments.

I have done several songs that are essentially piano/vocal (with subtle "flavoring" by some other instrument) ... those really require a decent piano sound. For me that is the 4Front TruePiano (I have increased the volume on the sample since it was low compared to the others). There are 4 different pianos in the package - each with good presets for different settings - but all the settings are available if you want to go crazy.... at the current sale price of $80 - it is well worth it (I think).

The only ones in the list that I would shy away from are the CSC ones that Herb provided. They sound "cheap" to me - like small size samples. All the rest sound decent. I would not use the Dimension Pro piano in a stark piano arrangement, but for the $14.99 the whole package cost it's not bad (and it has a BUNCH of other instruments) - would sound okay in a big mix...

The Hi-Q piano that comes with BIAB is a decent choice, too... though I can't get mine to work at the moment... it (meaning SampleTank) is so dang finicky - touch it at all and it wonks out - currently I'm getting the strings when I try to use a piano - even the default for the MIDI Supertracks...


http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm




Larry - do you have it? if so, you could provide us with a sample to add - I haven't heard anyone talk about it... so perhaps no one else has purchased it...
$139 on sale - going broke saving money???

This goes to Matt Finley's question of a couple pages back about standalone versions:

You can usually host ANY VSTi as a sort of 'standalone' using Hermann Seib's SAVIHOST freebie VSTi hosting program.

http://www.hermannseib.com/english/savihost.htm

Several years ago, I used Savihost for rehearsals where I wanted a nice B3 and electric piano, but didn't have access to a Rhodes or Hammond or Nord emulation. I have some really decent VSTi of these and SAVIHost worked great for the rehearsals where I brought my laptop and interface. For the gig, our bass player let me use his Nord Electro 2.

I'm in the camp of "use what sounds best for the situation" and since I don't have a lot of money.... heck, I hated to spend the $20 for the Steinburg pianos..... and since that's the one I have, I like it.

Comparing the piano's in the shootout, they all have varying tonal characteristics which give some a warm sound and others are much colder.

GPO sounded warm and full. (I've got GPO so I'll need to check this one out in my DAW)
Kontakt also sounded nice and warm.
Pianotek sounded good but had a slightly heavier mid bump. (easy EQ fix)
Studio one also sounded nice. Warm and full.


That's my take on the ones I liked the best. I can't say that any particular one was head and shoulders above the rest. Each one had pluses and minuses to it's sound. And they all would work in the right circumstance.

Jim Fogle has provided 6 more samples...

Several, everyone should have as part of their BIAB installs...


Soundblaster Audigy soundcard
Roland TTS-1 (dry, chorus and reverb turned off)
Coyote WT
BiaB Hi-Q acoustic
BiaB Hi-Q mellow
BiaB Hi-Q bright


Thanks, Jim.


http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm

I have Kontakt pianos, I think they were called "Klassik" pianos or something like that. there are 4 sampled pianos, 3 grands and an upright with several variations on each piano. I have been very satisfied with them until recently when I have had trouble getting any of them to sound "right" in a mix on a song we just did.

I already have the electric pianos from EZ Keys and the Electric pianos from pianoteq. I have several others as well, but I really like the pianoteq rhodes.

so i've been considering getting a pianoteq or EZ keys Studio Grand. the Studio grand is on sale right now.

I'm just torn on what to get. I might just be having a bad case of GAS, tho and don't really need any of it...

WHERE?

http://www.toontrack.com/holiday-deal-week/

$179 if you are a first time buyer, but if you have a version of ez keys already (like the electric pianos) then the sound expansion for the studio grand is $89.

sorry - I guess that's the regular price, not sale.

Ya, and $10 cheaper at Sweetwater. Still looking for that "no-brainer" sale price.

Stumbled upon this "OLD" thread this morning. Eight years later and this topic is still enjoyable to me. By the way, I did eventually find a sale price on the EZKeys Studio Grand and have used it all these years, along with new favorites.

Big thanks to FJ for maintaining the archive of these sounds!

http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm

Man that's a blast from the past.

Wow! Thanks for this link to Floyd's piano tests. I must have missed this but what a great review. Would be cool to have a test like this for el and acoustic guitars.

Jeff