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Posted By: Notes Norton Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 01:10 PM
This was sent by a friend and I thought it too good not to share:

Dear Mr. President:

Please find below my suggestion for fixing America's economy. Instead of giving billions of dollars to companies that will squander the money on lavish parties and unearned bonuses, use the following plan.

You can call it the Patriotic Retirement Plan:

There are about 40 million people over 50 in the work force.

Pay them $1 million apiece severance for early retirement with the following stipulations:

1) They MUST retire. Forty million job openings - Unemployment fixed.

2) They MUST buy a new American CAR. Forty million cars ordered- Auto Industry fixed.

3) They MUST either buy a house or pay off their mortgage - Housing Crisis fixed. It can't get any easier than that! If more money is needed, have all members of Congress and their constituents pay their taxes... If you think this would work, please forward to everyone you know. If not, please disregard.

Notes
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 02:56 PM
Right on! And too true to be funny.

R.
Posted By: toucher Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 03:22 PM
Fabulous.........great plan, similar ideas have cropped up in the last few years, even when Bush was in office.

Of course this is assuming that the Govt actually Wants! to fix the problems, (which they don't). Govt. needs crisis to survive and grow, so they can continue to help everyone, by nationalizing everything they can as fast as they can, and then to help in that process, appoint Supreme Court Justices who scoff at the constitution, and decide to legislate from the bench.

Don't get me wrong, the plan is great, I love the idea, (especially since I'm over 50), but doesn anyone really thing the Govt is concerned about these issues, or even patriotism for that matter. These are only methods of manipulating the masses to do the right thing, regardless of how badly the Govt continues to screw things up.

sorry for the rant, but this administration is killing us..........
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 03:37 PM
I don't think this would ever happen, and it is probably too simplistic to work in the first place. The corporations would most likely outsource the majority of the vacant jobs, the national debt would rise even more, and there would of course be rampant cheating.

But I thought it humorous enough to post.

The economy has been going downhill since Clinton (who I did not vote for) left office. One political party got us into this mess and the other seems to be getting us in deeper.

IMO, The major corporations have become the government and our elected officials merely their puppets.

The American experiment has been corrupted and the founding fathers must be spinning in their graves.

Notes
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 03:39 PM
Find a way to include those of us over 50 who want to continue working at some level and I like it.

For example, I would not want Uncle Sam to be telling me that I couldn't play a gig again simply because I'm over 50.


--Mac
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 04:14 PM
Quote:

<...>
For example, I would not want Uncle Sam to be telling me that I couldn't play a gig again simply because I'm over 50. <...>




Hey Mac! Notice you said PLAY a gig, not Work a gig!!!

Notes
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 04:46 PM
Major league ballplayers also call what they do, "playing ball".

Ever see their earnings statements?



--Mac
Posted By: D. Tuna Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 05:19 PM
Q: (for those that think this plan would work) How much is 40,000,000 x 1,000,000?
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 06:18 PM
Here is my problem with this concept:

You get 1 million dollars, at the curent tax rate that would equate to $667,000 after taxes, but for fun let's say they give it to you tax free

$1,000,000 in hand

You can't work so no income, your retired!

No Social Security, cause you do not qualify, and under current law if 55 not for 10 to 12 years.

Buy a car, approx $24,000

Buy a house say for $175,000

Total expenditures $199,000

$1,000,000 -
$ 199,000
------------------
$ 801,000 @ 4% bank Cd rate, cause you can not afford to gamble with it

$32,040 per year, which WILL be taxable at approx 28% depending on where you live
- $8,900
Leaving $$23,140 for income Or $1,983 per month to live on with a brand new car and paid for house it id doable but not livin' large for sure. If you had a few bill to pay off first it might not be a good deal.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/27/09 07:45 PM
Quote:

Q: (for those that think this plan would work) How much is 40,000,000 x 1,000,000?




That would be 40 trillion dollars. And your point is?

Richard "Spend All Ya Want, We'll Print More" L.
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 12:39 AM
Quote:

Quote:

Q: (for those that think this plan would work) How much is 40,000,000 x 1,000,000?




That would be 40 trillion dollars. And your point is?




Perhaps the point is that the US national debt is only 8.7 trillion dollars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo

It might be possible to spend that kind of money in other ways - like getting rid of the debt.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 11:41 AM
1) The post was meant in fun
2) In the unlikely event that it actually happened, it would not cost 40 trillion, but only 40 million
3) I'm over 50 and the stock market crash took most of my retirement savings away, so I'm all for it.

And Mac, yes, at 50 I don't think I have a million dollars worth of income left from the rest of the gigs I will be playing, so I'll play for free, hire a couple or roadies, and pay them what I get for the gig, anything else goes to charity.

But nobody should get nervous about this. Even if 300,000,000 people send this letter to the president and all the members of congress, it wouldn't happen. Why? We the people do not run this government. The Multi-national corporations run the government and the people we elect are merely their puppets.

Insights and incites by Notes
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 12:02 PM
Quote:

2) In the unlikely event that it actually happened, it would not cost 40 trillion, but only 40 million



40 people receiving a million dollars is 40 million.
40 million receiving it is a whole lot more!! (say....40 trillion???)
Posted By: MarioD Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 01:18 PM
Quote:

We the people do not run this government. The Multi-national corporations run the government and the people we elect are merely their puppets.

Insights and incites by Notes




No truer words have been spoken.

The irony of this situation is that people expect congress, the same people, both Democrats and Republicans, that got us into this mess by writing treaties that allowed their corporate leader friends to outsource good paying American jobs to third world countries with no penalties like tariffs or taxes when they bring those products back into the USA, to get us out of this mess.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 03:21 PM
Bob is just proving my long held contention that good musicians can only count reliably up to the number four...

Posted By: Gary Curran Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 03:47 PM
I fell into the same trap as Bob did. When you look at his post, it says '$1 Million dollars', not $1,000,000. Because we see only the '1', we do the automatic arithmetic (some of us, anyway) that $40,000,000 x 1 is $40,000,000 (which of course it is), but is not the same as $40,000,000 x 1,000,000.

Still, what has this bailout cost us so far? By the time we get done with this thing, it may not be a bad idea after all. In fact, it may actually be cheaper to get away with.

Gary
Posted By: PapaMikie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 04:06 PM
Quote:

Bob is just proving my long held contention that good musicians can only count reliably up to the number four...





Brubeck and Desmond seemed to make it to 5 on occasion...
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 04:09 PM
Brubeck and Desmond did a tune that was subdivided into counting one bar of 3 followed by one bar of 2.
Posted By: PapaMikie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 04:12 PM
40,000,000
x 1,000,000
40,000,000,000,000

or 40 million million but what is a few zero's between friends?
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 04:14 PM
That was a result no not counting past 4 except if you are counting 28 bars of rest and even then 1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4, 3 2 3 4, 4 2 3 4, HELP!

Then I watch the wife and try and come in at the same time, I tried using my fingers, works ok until I hit the 11th bar and I can get confused.
Posted By: PapaMikie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 04:16 PM
Quote:


Brubeck and Desmond did a tune that was subdivided into counting one bar of 3 followed by one bar of 2.





Yeah, I know, and Blue Rondo à la Turk is 2 + 2 + 2 + 3, or 3 + 3 + 3, with some parts payed as if 4/4 so I guess you wont allow that they could count to 9 either :-(
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/28/09 04:20 PM
Quote:

The irony of this situation is that people expect congress, the same people, both Democrats and Republicans, that got us into this mess . . . to get us out of this mess.



Quote:

“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
-Albert Einstein




R.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 12:49 AM
We should give them all a fair trial BEFORE we hang 'em!
Posted By: Gary Curran Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 01:00 AM
Quote:

We should give them all a fair trial BEFORE we hang 'em!




Why waste any more of the taxpayers dollars, or valuable time, Mick?

But, I would be willing to give them a 10 second head start, and see if they can outrun my Ruger .204!

Gary
Posted By: Lawrie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 01:21 AM
Quote:

... I tried using my fingers, works ok until I hit the 11th bar and I can get confused.




Maybe take off your shoes and socks?
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 01:28 AM
Quote:

Q: (for those that think this plan would work) How much is 40,000,000 x 1,000,000?




Exactly.

Forget not that the car companies troubles - all of them, foreign and domestic - are primarily due to a business model that depends on customers that use credit to buy the products.

When 40% of the customers go away nearly overnight (that's what happened in less than a 6 month time frame with the elimination of the credit markets for those 40% of customers), then NO business can really sustain itself.

I don't care who runs those car companies - they won't figure out a way around that fact. The CEOs of the banks are the ones who should be answering questions in Washington, not the bosses of the big 3.

Who here can buy any new car on a cash basis without a major upset to your current budget?

That's what I thought - very likely less than 5% of the readers of this forum could do just that.

If the credit market doesn't turn around soon, watch your beloved Japanese car companies come tumbling down as well. They have some cash reserves, but they will not last long.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 12:20 PM
Quote:

Why waste any more of the taxpayers dollars, or valuable time, Mick?

But, I would be willing to give them a 10 second head start, and see if they can outrun my Ruger .204!

Gary



You should never underestimate Yankee ingenuity! You're right Gary.
A beautiful streamlined approach.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
Posted By: cchallum Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 12:52 PM
We could probably save more taxpayer monies by following this approach: Once a politician is elected to an office, we do not pay them a single cent; all they make is simply what they can steal. At the end of their first term, they automatically go to jail.

Think of the savings!!!
Posted By: toucher Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 03:04 PM
Could work, except that our national deficit is no where near that number.....We could pay ourselves out of debt first and still not be anywhere near that number. We could buy a new car for every working adult in the country, and still not be anywhere near that number. We could probably pay off every home mortgage in the country and still not be anywhere near that number.

Or we could bail out large corporations like GM, and then let them move all their mfg to China, and import the cars to this country. Lose about 20 Gazillion jobs that are in one way or another associated with the auto makers, unions, etc. But then of course we would have to also bail out the banks, and Insurance companies, and let them squander the money, and have nothing left to show for it, except a huge deficit.

Since this seems to be the way the Govt has chosen to handle things, we probably should let them also run our healthcare. I mean look what a great job they have done with Medicare. Most doctors around where I live won't even take new medicare patients.

just a thought.
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/29/09 03:18 PM
Quote:

Forget not that the car companies troubles - all of them, foreign and domestic - are primarily due to a business model that depends on customers that use credit to buy the products.

When 40% of the customers go away nearly overnight (that's what happened in less than a 6 month time frame with the elimination of the credit markets for those 40% of customers), then NO business can really sustain itself.

I don't care who runs those car companies - they won't figure out a way around that fact. The CEOs of the banks are the ones who should be answering questions in Washington, not the bosses of the big 3.

Who here can buy any new car on a cash basis without a major upset to your current budget?

That's what I thought - very likely less than 5% of the readers of this forum could do just that.

If the credit market doesn't turn around soon, watch your beloved Japanese car companies come tumbling down as well. They have some cash reserves, but they will not last long.




I think you've nailed it Scott. But the problem isn't going to go away - our human societies have been living on credit too much for too long. Our governments have been running deficits year after year, and many individuals have maxed out their credit cards and are mortgaged to the hilt. The mess we're seeing now (and it's world-wide so let no one smirk) couldn't possibly go on forever and it's caught up with us - this shouldn't have been a surprise. We could call this the free lunch syndrome and it has overtaken rational thinking.

Our (brain dead) PM defended the minister of finance's gigantic miscalculation on the deficit, by saying he would spend more if it was required. How can you possibly spend your way out of debt? Good grief, the man is supposed to be an economist - if an economist thinks we can spend ourselves out of debt, what chance do we have?

Just my deflated two cents worth.

Glenn
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/30/09 08:42 AM
Quote:

Quote:



Our (brain dead) PM defended the minister of finance's gigantic miscalculation on the deficit, by saying he would spend more if it was required. How can you possibly spend your way out of debt? Good grief, the man is supposed to be an economist - if an economist thinks we can spend ourselves out of debt, what chance do we have?

Just my deflated two cents worth.

Glenn





Glenn, just remember that it's the first deficit in 10 years or so, and that the deficit spending is supposed to be on infrastructure. At least ours is open. Just heard on the news that an American military camp, after finding out that the plastic plumbing they put in the ground was 'made in Canada', ripped it all out and replaced it with good old american plastic." Somewhere along the line, they forgot that 1.5 billion dollars a DAY in trade cross the border. Granted that the balance has always been skewed our way due to Natural Gas, Oil, minerals, electricity, and lumber, but they are loosing track of the economics.

And the current Canadian deficit, despite the number is the smallest in developed nations on a GDP to debt ratio. (Something like .5 to over 10 percent for UK, US, Japan etc..Just imagine what the so called coalition would have rung up in a deficit! They would be way more liberal...pun intended.

Maybe we should get Renee Couette outta the grave. When I lived in Quebec in the 60's he wanted to cancel foreign aid for 3 years. There was enough money there for every Canadian family to get 15,000 a year for free and we'd all buy stuff and make ourselves rich. Social Credit party man.
Quote:

We should give them all a fair trial BEFORE we hang 'em!




I disagree. We should give them all a fair trial as we hang them.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/30/09 08:32 PM
Quote:

We should give them all a fair trial BEFORE we hang 'em!



Quote:

I disagree. We should give them all a fair trial as we hang them.



On second thought...screw the trial!!

Mick
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/31/09 12:11 AM
Quote:

Glenn, just remember that it's the first deficit in 10 years or so, and that the deficit spending is supposed to be on infrastructure. At least ours is open.

And the current Canadian deficit, despite the number is the smallest in developed nations on a GDP to debt ratio. (Something like .5 to over 10 percent for UK, US, Japan etc..Just imagine what the so called coalition would have rung up in a deficit! They would be way more liberal...pun intended.





My first comment is that in spite of the deficit (aimed at bailing out private companies), these companies won't likely survive anyway. Most of us can only keep buying new cars if we get deep into debt - but this is the basic problem with the world's economies right now - we're in debt.

My second comment is that we just got out of debt a few years ago and this collective group of idiots think gov't can solve private enterprise's problems - gov't can't even solve its own problems. And it doesn't seem to matter which group of idiots is in power.

My third comment is that the gov't has no business becoming a shareholder in private enterprise. Unless you come from Saskatchewan where I come from, and the Crown corporations actually turn a profit, so are actually good investments. But the federal gov't being a wise investor - yes, when hell freezes over.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/31/09 11:27 AM
I believe it was the U.S. senate that privatized it's cafeteria a few years back.
When the senate ran it, it lost money every year. The House of Representatives is now considering privatizing it's cafeteria. It has lost money 39 out of the past 41 years!!

These idiots can't even run their own lunch rooms!!
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 05/31/09 04:08 PM
GLEN:
I'm just glad the word debt does not even cross my mind. Now if housing prices bottom out at the same time as oil I'm moving to a trailer park.

I just wish the American dollar would do better, it's killing industry here. And will kill tourism.

I hope what I fear about the tourism vrs America thing doesn't go as I fear. Niagara Falls might as well shut down. We get a lot of Americans here, $50 US for a decent motel room and the only thing more expensive is booze and smokes.

I just explained to the bride that the broken washing machine isn't worth fixing it's 13 years old. Time for a new one. She looked at me funny, I think she's wondering about replacing me.
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/02/09 05:08 AM
Quote:

GLENn:
I'm just glad the word debt does not even cross my mind. Now if housing prices bottom out at the same time as oil I'm moving to a trailer park.

I just wish the American dollar would do better, it's killing industry here. And will kill tourism.

I hope what I fear about the tourism vs America thing doesn't go as I fear. Niagara Falls might as well shut down. We get a lot of Americans here, $50 US for a decent motel room and the only thing more expensive is booze and smokes.

I just explained to the bride that the broken washing machine isn't worth fixing it's 13 years old. Time for a new one. She looked at me funny, I think she's wondering about replacing me.




John:

The price of oil is going to be impossible to predict. Not because of the current state of the economy (that just makes it harder to predict - Alberta was rolling in money last year, but are now rolling in debt), but because we've used up about 1/2 of the oil reserves that are practical to recover (there's no point in using 1,000 btu's to get at oil that delivers 1,000 btu's). So many people think we can just keep on drilling and it will be there. Really? What happened to the iron mines in Wisconsin and the copper mines in Montana? I drove through towns called Bessemer, Ironwood and Iron River in 1964, and they were deserted then. Oil will go the same way. On the downside of the oil supply curve things will go nuts - the price will rise sharply causing people to stop driving, which will drive down the price, which will cause people to drive again, driving up the price. But as it runs out, the price will inevitably rise over the long run. Let's get used to it, that's the reality of the future. It took us about 100 years to use 1/2 the oil, but now that we're so good at using it, I wonder how long it will take to run out.

The US dollar will do better when the US gets a bit more out of debt - debt caused by easy credit, and mass consumer spending. Some of our fellow Canucks are smug, but shouldn't be as we're in the same boat, the only difference being that our banks were more tightly controlled and it helped a bit.

As for tourism, it's a multi-million dollar business in Victoria too; and it's going to be a thin year or two or three or more. The tourist industry is complaining about the passport requirements and how it's hurting tourism. What they forget is that most of our customers don't have that much spare change to toss out on travel. I really can't believe that requiring a passport to enter the US is a large hurdle. Today's National cited the cost of $87 US for a passport - that's peanuts compared to the cost of leaving your country for even a few days.

Tourism is dead for a while. Again, let's get used to reality as it is.

I spent most of two weeks in California in March - it was eye-opening and depressing. They and AZ were hit the worst.

Cheers - if that's the word. Good luck on a new washing machine. Maybe the auto plants need to think about manufacturing something we need that the Chinese don't make too well.

Yes, it sounds like doom and gloom, but I'm getting used to it.

Music helps a lot.

Glenn

PS - there was a time when I considered buying GM shares and didn't - today I was told I now I own some.
Posted By: Keith from Oz Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/03/09 03:53 AM
[quote PS - there was a time when I considered buying GM shares and didn't - today I was told I now I own some.




Does that mean that GM now stands for "Government Motors"?
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/03/09 04:17 AM
Quote:

[quote PS - there was a time when I considered buying GM shares and didn't - today I was told I now I own some.




Does that mean that GM now stands for "Government Motors"?




Eee-yup.

Now that the two federal governments (Canada and the USA) have some say, do you think these companies will get better or worse?

That's a rhetorical question of course (I've read the posts about the cafeterias).

Glenn
Posted By: HappyTrails Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/03/09 06:07 PM
If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.
Posted By: Rob Helms Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/03/09 11:05 PM
$40,000,000 X 1,000,000 = 40,000,000,000,000 That is 40 trillion for it to be 40,000,000 it would have to be $1 x 40,000,000!

Sorry to say there Bobster!

Anyway your other comments are sadly both funny and true.
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 12:08 AM
Quote:

If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.




I'm still driving my 1996 Bonneville Pontiac. Probably the best car I've ever had.

The only problem was the intake manifold - GM's famous Dex-Cool anti-freeze finally ate it out last year. Of course there was a class action lawsuit against GM over this, and GM is settling, but they're still using the stuff. Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes seems to be their credo.
Posted By: Keith from Oz Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 03:11 AM
And I understand that it's sold Hummer to a Chinese company..........
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 04:12 AM
Quote:

And I understand that it's sold Hummer to a Chinese company..........




You mean someone actually bought it? Well you know the old saying about what's "born every minute". But I didn't know it was that bad.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 06:26 AM
Quote:

If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.




They've been doing this for the past 15 years at least. The problem is, everyone remembers the Chevy Citations from the 1980s.

There is an american media bias against american car companies and a general 'pass' for the japanese companies. You probably haven't heard about the Toyota oil sludge issue, but just google those terms. Had that issue been associated with GM, Ford or Chrysler, it would have been headline news.

Consumer Reports even admits that it refuses to give GM a 'recommended buy', the most coveted award in the automotive industry, for a new model in it's first year, whereas it will do such for Toyota and Honda.

This may not seem like a big deal, but it is financially a HUGE deal. The first model year of a vehicle is where it can do the most to conquer sales from other manufacturers. Getting that CR rating is a big part of the equation.

GM's current mess was created mainly by the lack of credit availability - plain and simple. 40% of nearly all car company customers, foreign and domestic, were removed from the marketplace nearly overnight. (the middle 6 months of 2008).

Look, I worked for them for 15 years - just quit in April. 2 years ago I got a profit sharing check, with a much less favorable cost structure than what exists today.

The car industry had been cranking along with 16,000,000,000 to 17,000,000 unit sales on a year to year basis. Now it's looking like a 9,000,000 to 10,000,000 unit per year market. All the car companies are reeling as a result - but again, the bad news focuses on the domestics. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them to fail.

The only reason the Japanese companies aren't in as much of a hurt is they had more cash on hand. Toyota lost money this year. And it will likely happen again for 2010.

They also don't have a big retirement aged former workforce in this country as a sunk cost. You can look at that as a good thing, but guess what - now the taxpayer will be paying more for those retiree's health care bills as well as a result of the bankruptcy.

Honestly - check the real reliability results and you'll see there that the playing field is flat these days. I'm not talking about people's opinions on reliability (such as yours posted above), but the reliability ratings based on part and system failures.

And nobody tips a hat to GM for what they did immediately following 9/11. Kept a good part of the US economy in business with 0% financing.

I was fortunate to escape the industry. It's impossible to sustain a domestic industry when we are making the best products in decades; better than a good deal if not all of the competition, and attitudes like the above are still present in the society. Perception is reality.

Just please go test-drive a Malibu.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 06:28 AM
Quote:

Quote:

And I understand that it's sold Hummer to a Chinese company..........




You mean someone actually bought it? Well you know the old saying about what's "born every minute". But I didn't know it was that bad.




Glen, Just a little over a year ago, this was probably the most profitable brand in the stable of GM. It was a cash cow.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 07:36 AM
Quote:

Quote:

If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.




They've been doing this for the past 15 years at least. The problem is, everyone remembers the Chevy Citations from the 1980s.




Bingo. As one car guy to another Scott, this is right on. They make a lot of great cars now but it's too late. To anybody under 40, GM Ford or Chrysler do not exist, it's that simple. They totally screwed the pooch in the 70's and 80's with the Vega, the Pinto, the X cars, the unbelievably awful Olds diesel, the equally awful Seville 4-6-8 and how about that little pos Cadillac Cimmaron based on whatever that Chevy was called? What a bargain that was. The list goes on and on, I'm digging em up now. That turbo V6 Regal (not the Grand National, that was pretty hot), the turbo Trans Am, that little crap Mustang II, the Buick Le Sabre, there's a classic for ya, man the hits just keep on comin. There's that very smooth jewel like Olds Quad 4. Not. Oh yeah, lets not forget the Dodge Diplomat and all of it's siblings. And then of course, Chevy importing that total pos Isuzu whatever it was in an attempt to compete with Honda. If you can't tell, after I stopped playing music for a living I sold, test drove, financed or managed all of those brands during that time because I was a patriotic Air Force veteran and no way was I working for a Japanese car company. My mistake. I finally gave up and worked for BMW for several years.
Meanwhile, the Japanese companies captured that whole generation of buyers and they're not coming back. The business model that GM had now works beautifully for Toyota. Get the buyer in his first car with a Corolla, then move up to a Camry, then move up to Lexus. Of course don't forget the dealer "experience" with all those domestics. It was an experience all right. Most but not all, of the foreign dealers are much better too.
The current generation of 20 somethings are more open to some domestics but only a few and I doubt it will be enough to sustain the former big 3 without continual government subsidies. Still, they didn't live through all those "great" cars, so maybe they wind up saving the companies because as you said the current models are fine. They're right up there in the JD Power rankings.
All this bailout really is is a jobs program and probably necessary given the current economic climate. But, in a few years when we're humming along again, the government will feel it's safe to pull the plug on GM and Chrysler and they will probably dry up and go away unless GM can make a going business just with Cadillac and Corvette and maybe selling Buicks to the Chinese. Even the Toyota Tundra is starting to eat the Silverado now. Not sure about Ford, they may make it.

Bob
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 09:33 AM
Just build a car designed to last 8 to 10 years without needing to buy new wipers after 3 months, tires after 8 months, stuff that works. No need to make 12 models, this one has 2 pieces of chrome, this one 4, this one has a roof hole, that one has a locking gas cap cover. Don't change the model for 3 years, just improve on what you had.

What was the make of that taxi cab that was prevalent in the 50's? Was it called a Universal? They made the thing to last forever, using the best transmission, chassis, etc.

I've had 3 vehicles over the last 30 years. An olds 88 I drove into the ground and sold to my neighbour for $1000 and he was an auto engineer, fixed it in the driveway and sold it for $3000 (It was the same as the cadillac at the time.) Then a Dodge van, now a Ford Van. The Ford is the 2000 model, and I've changed the transmission and engine. The engine change cost me $1200. But I bought all them with cash. So the $1200 spent 5 months ago to change the engine seems ok because for the year I'll spend $100 bucks a month in theory and the engine that went in had 80,000 kms less on it than mine did. As soon as the kids are gone, and I sell the 5 bedroom house (which is within a year), I will buy the last car. Heaven knows with how much less I drive, it should last me quite some time, except for the salt eating it every winter.

Without the teams of people changing 12 models of every car every year, retooling the plants, and having a dealer on every corner, it would reduce costs to have a car that didn't change much, and who cares if it looks like we are all going down the road on the same car.

Maybe the next one I'll take to the Punjabi temple and let them 'bless' it with oil and flowers and stuff. I just have to ask what day it's ok to buy, they have very strict rules on what days you can purchase products with metal or some such thing. LOL
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 11:54 AM
Quote:

If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.




And if they made cars the people actually wanted instead of trying to manipulate public tastes into what GM wanted them to buy.

That's just my opinion.

Notes
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 12:14 PM
Quote:

What was the make of that taxi cab that was prevalent in the 50's? Was it called a Universal?



Are you referring to the Checker?

When I was a kid, we were tickled to make it to 100,000 miles on a car.
Today I have an Olds Bravada with 304,000 miles. (runs like a top)
2) Chevy Astros 250,000 miles + both run well & a 2006 Jeep Liberty Diesel w/111,000 miles.
All vehicles were bought new. No major repairs. The quality is there.

The bloat is in the unions. Now that they own 30% of GM & approx. 50% of Chrysler, how will they negotiate their contracts?
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 12:44 PM
Quote:

Just build a car designed to last 8 to 10 years without needing to buy new wipers after 3 months, tires after 8 months, stuff that works. No need to make 12 models, this one has 2 pieces of chrome, this one 4, this one has a roof hole, that one has a locking gas cap cover. Don't change the model for 3 years, just improve on what you had.<...>




The original VW Beetle approach. I agree with that. There is no need to re-tool the sheet metal and redesign everything just to get a new look when they could make a basic body style and then simply make improvements on that through the years.

As far as reliability is concerned, the US cars are much more reliable than they used to be. When I was young it was extremely rare for a vehicle to last 100,000 miles. The odometers didn't go that high, and if you "flipped" the odometer, it was a cause for celebration. Now I can "flip" them twice and still drive them.

I need a mini-van to haul my music gear to the gig (PA, sax, guitar, synths, etc. and I've had 3. A 1984 Plymouth Voyager almost 200,000 miles, a 1995 4 cylinder Dodge Caravan over 200,000 miles and currently a 2002 Dodge Caravan with 130,000 miles and counting.

The Caravan I'm driving now has had nothing major done to it. Other than tune up items, I've replaced the battery once, wiper refills once (they are due again) and the tires once (at about 100,000 miles). I drive it conservatively, slow acceleration, anticipating slow downs so I use the brakes as little as I can (I'm on the original set), and I get 5 miles per gallon more than the car is rated for (that's 100 miles per tank - see http://www.nortonmusic.com/environment.html and scroll down to the sub-heading Automobile for details).

Of course, driving the car sanely hurts the vehicle manufacturer. The car companies instead of building a product that lasts and selling fewer items in a smaller company, decided long ago to sell as many cars and replacement parts as they could therefore growing the company as big as they could and maximizing profits. But nothing can grow forever.

The industry term is "Chiclets items", products like the chewing gum namesake are not meant to last but instead are to be chewed up and spit out.

They used intensive advertising to tell the public that they need a new car every two years, and actually designed parts so that they do not last forever (they make a lot of money selling replacement parts).

When the imports started becoming more reliable than the domestics, and using that as a selling point, the US car companies started responding (Quality is job one) and now US vehicles are much better than they used to be.

But after all those shoddy quality for "maximum Chiclets" years it was difficult to change public perception. The general public remembers driving those US Junk cars while the Hondas and Volvos seem to last forever. It's difficult to change a person's mind once he/she has been burned. For example, I got sick eating too many strawberries as a child and to this day I cannot eat strawberries even though I tell myself I won't get sick if I eat them.

Plus the US industry is still geared towards the Chiclets approach and longer lasting cars that don't need replacing hurt the huge bloated Chiclets industry. So even if they can convince the public that they changed their ways, they have to reorganize, close factories, get rid of laborers, get rid of management and become a much smaller company that sells fewer units but units that last longer. And that's tough to do.

Plus while the majority of people really wanted fuel efficient vehicles, through the advertising, product placement in movies/TV, and pressure from dealers, the US Auto companies were busy telling the people they would be looked down upon by their peer group if they drove anything smaller than a gas-guzzling SUV. So too many people bought those Hummers, Escalades, Expeditions and their slightly smaller brethren like the Jimmy, Navigator, etc., and when the gas prices shot up (partly caused by the increased consumption of these behemoths), they regretted their purchase, saw the foreign market producing cars that get 30-50mpg and that was one more "nail in the coffin" of the US manufacturer.

They have been going for this quarter's bottom line instead of long term stability and profitability. This is the problem with corporationalism (as opposed to real capitalism).

A small company only needs to make enough money to pay the employees and the owners a decent salary (with of course the owners making a more "decent" salary). There is no need to make more and more and more profit every quarter, but simply enough so everybody can live comfortably.

A huge corporation needs to make more and more and more and more profit, every quarter, or the stockholders will sell their stock and invest somewhere else. As mentioned before, nothing can grow indefinitely.

So in effect, the stock market becomes a legal Ponzi scheme, and the day of reckoning has come again. Look at history, it's not the first time. Each depression/recession may be better or worse than the last one, but they do come in cycles. And each time it takes away the hard-earned lifetime savings of the investors and leaves them worse off than if they buried their money in a jar in their back yard. They CEOs win, the investors lose. Every Ponzi scheme has it's few winners and many losers.

This is what Karl Marx saw as the problem with Capitalism/Corporationalism, and he had good intentions to fix it. Unfortunately, communism had it's own set of problems that were harder on the population than Capitalism so it failed.

I'm not smart enough to devise a system that doesn't have the excesses of Capitalism/Corporationalism or the shortages of Communism, if I was I'd write a book and perhaps initiate change. I can see the problem, but I don't know how to fix it -- and I've thought about it a lot.

As Alvin Lee once sang, "I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do. So I'm leaving it up to you."

Sadly,
Notes
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 12:53 PM
Quote:

<...>The bloat is in the unions.<...>




I partially agree with you.

But last year, the CEO of GM made almost 15 million dollars for his yearly salary (including bonuses and stock options) while the company hemorrhaged money. It's hard for the union to cut their paychecks when the person steering the ship is making an obscene amount of money while he is steering the ships straight into the rocks.

And when the ship goes down, they know he is not going down with the ship, and he is not even getting on a lifeboat, but abandoning ship in a helicopter and leaving the crew to sink or swim. How can anybody justify a CEO making 15 million dollars a year when the company he/she is running is rapidly heading towards bankruptcy? Is he/she being rewarded for making bad decisions? It seems so.

So it's union plus management in my opinion.

And I'm not happy about any of the bail outs, but again, I don't have the solution.

Notes
Posted By: MartinB Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 01:09 PM
Remember the magnificent documentation 'An Inconvenient Truth' by Al Gore in 2006?

An impressive chart depicted the efficiency of cars built by various car manufacturers all over the globe. U.S. car manufacturers build the most inefficient cars in the world - by a long shot.

You see such a chart and know immediately -> U.S. car manufacturers are prone to crash.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 01:15 PM
Quote:

Quote:

If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.




And if they made cars the people actually wanted instead of trying to manipulate public tastes into what GM wanted them to buy.

That's just my opinion.

Notes




Bob, I will grant that they missed your segment. Missed it by a mile; or shall we say "missed it by about 15 mpg". But they also had a business goal in mind. Make money on every single model. It is a for profit company after all. It's not a benevolent charity.

Toyota still loses money on every single Prius that they make.

But you know what, it's advertising cost for them. It makes the public think that everything that they make is fuel efficient. That's a big 'ol pile of you know what. But their gamble worked.

The government wants all the cars to be Priuses. Well, we still build houses and things like that in this country. Lots of people still want trucks. GM offers fuel efficient trucks that can actually handle the hard work thrown at them.

Toyota - well, try looking up the Tundra tailgate deformation issue.

Again, swept under the rug by the general media.

Look to see who is still selling Sequoias, and then look to see what MPG they get versus the domestic competition.

About the union comment - For many years, this has not been the biggest thorn in the side of GM. I was a non-union salaried engineer for GM. If anyone would want to cast stones their way, it would be me. But I can vouch that looking at the contract that Rick Wagoner's team negotiated with the union in 2007, it made the GM/UAW contract cost competitive with non-union labor from the foreign makers.

You can look it up yourself.

Don't believe the senator's figures. They used very old information.

As for Rick Wagoner making 15 million/year - He probably should have volunteered to do the 1$ salary a year earlier.

Keep in mind that the economy, the inflow/outflow of money, of even just GM's full size truck program, was big enough to make it a Fortune 100 company all by itself. Shoot, it was a bigger economy than many countries of the world for that matter.

That's just for one vehicle line.

Folks in charge of stuff like that should get paid in kind, I would say.

I think he earned his keep pretty well. He was a sacrificial lamb. It's the bank CEOs and the lack of any regulation on the credit markets (congress), that have put the economy into this mess. Not one of them have required to leave. Hmm.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 01:32 PM
Quote:

This is what Karl Marx saw as the problem with Capitalism/Corporationalism, and he had good intentions to fix it. Unfortunately, communism had it's own set of problems that were harder on the population than Capitalism so it failed. -Notes Norton



Quote:

"The problem with communism is communism. The problem with capitalism is capitalists."



Quote:

"Capitalism is the worst economic system ever devised, except for all the others."



Quote:

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of communism is the equal sharing of misery." -Winston Churchill



Notes,

Rather to my surprise, I agree with you about everything, with (I think) the minor exception of CEOs' 'obscene' salaries. A cap on earnings of companies or individuals goes a little too far in the direction of socialism for me. But otherwise--I'm right with ya.

R.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 03:21 PM
I'm right there too. All of us in this discussion were also putting our two cents in during the election. I'm on the right, a lot of you were on the left and we all expressed ourselves. Well, now I'm nowhere. I've always been pretty cynical about this stuff but now I'm so cynical I can't even describe just how cynical I really am except to say I'm really, really cynical. The Madoff scandal was the tipping point for me. How could this happen right under the nose of the SEC? There's a guy in Boston who runs a 5 billion hedge fund who had his partner look into Madoff several years ago with the thought he might put some of his clients money with him. He discovered something was terribly wrong and wrote it all up with their evidence and turned it over to the SEC. And nothing happened. I give that guy a lot of credit because he did his due diligence and protected his clients. Then there's the totally unregulated AIG debacle. I'm a finance type and have studied these things trying to learn what happened and it represents a failure of government on a massive scale. Just unbelievable.
For 8 years this was Bush's responsibility but it was going on for over 20 years so it cuts across both parties. I now know the meaning of the phrase that it's a terrible thing when people lose their faith. I've lost my faith in my government and like Notes, I don't have any answers either. Unlike Rush Limbaugh, I desperately want Obama to succeed and if he can clean this mess up even somewhat by applying left wing liberal principles then guess what, I'm right there with them because the Republican free market principles I thought I believed in have done squat.
We all have to be careful though. This is exactly how Hitler came to power not that Obama is Hitler mind you, its just that when the people are completely disillusioned with their leaders, they can be prone to follow someone who turns out to be worse than they can imagine.

Bob
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 07:43 PM
Quote:

Glen, Just a little over a year ago, this was probably the most profitable brand in the stable of GM. It was a cash cow.




Scott;

I don't doubt this, but surely someone had to realize that the future was not in gas guzzlers.

Let's leave climate change out of this and think about where all the oil is coming from to run these things. It's coming from the ground, just like other minerals - all of which are a finite resource. Finite simply means, it will run out. And the more Hummer types we have the faster it runs out.

I will state it again - my full size Pontiac has been an excellent car - I don't baby my car - it gets "driven". Still original shocks all round (my wife's 96 Camry had to have them replaced - her brakes squeal all the time - mine don't). On a used car lot her car would bring more than mine, but I wouldn't trade her cars - the Pontiac is better. For me to buy an efficient vehicle would require an outlay of cash that would more than pay for all the gas I'll use the rest of my life.

I think your comments on the press, etc are probably right - once a company gets a bad reputation (see other posts about the 70's and 80's) it's almost impossible to regain it. I've looked at the new Malibu, and it's a very good vehicle (but I can't afford a new car now).

The imports are not without their problems, but we blithely assume they are always better. I think it has something to do with the "grass being greener on the other side of the fence".

My only beef with GM is about their new electric car - they had an excellent start ten years ago, and killed it. Now they are pretending to be virtuous by developing an electric which isn't even a fully electric - it's a hybrid.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 07:53 PM
Quote:

Quote:

If GM could make a car that lasts five years without major problems, they wouldn't be in this mess.




I think Merle said that years ago, "if a Ford and a Chevy would last ten years like they should". And of course that was, "when I girl could still cook and chop wood".

Later,
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 09:18 PM
Quote:



My only beef with GM is about their new electric car - they had an excellent start ten years ago, and killed it. Now they are pretending to be virtuous by developing an electric which isn't even a fully electric - it's a hybrid.




Jeez - they built the car. To replace the batteries would have cost more than the car was worth. They killed it because there was not a business case to continue it. I drove the EV-1 two different occasions. It was a joy to drive, but the batteries just wouldn't last.

The Volt IS an electric car. It's a practical electric car. The battery size allows you to go 40 miles without a charge. The range extending feature (take your pick: gasoline, diesel, fuel cell) allows the battery to remain reasonable in size, meet federal crash requirements, etc. etc. etc.

Most people that buy it for a commuting vehicle will not need to ever run the gasoline engine.

It's an electric car. Plain and simple. It just won't leave you stranded should you drive it farther than 40 miles.

I could go into the details of what a hybrid actually means, but in simple terms: The Prius is a hybrid. The gas motor powers the drive wheels at times. Not the case with the Volt. Pure electric drive.

Hybrids are the short game.

I've driven GM's fuel cell vehicles, at least a production ready Equinox that made nothing but water out of the tailpipe. That's the green future state - but it requires an infrastructure change that the car companies can't finance on their own.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/04/09 09:33 PM
I've always found it amusing that everyone who is not an engineer is an expert at second guessing everyone who is a practicing engineer.


--Mac
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/05/09 12:11 AM
Quote:

<...>Notes,

Rather to my surprise, I agree with you about everything, with (I think) the minor exception of CEOs' 'obscene' salaries. A cap on earnings of companies or individuals goes a little too far in the direction of socialism for me. But otherwise--I'm right with ya.

R.




I definitely agree with you on no cap on earnings of companies or individuals. I hope I didn't imply that I was for a cap.

But when a CEO is making millions of dollars per year while the corporation is losing billions of dollars per quarter, I don't think he/she is earning his/her salary. The CEO is paid those obscene amounts to make or keep the corporation profitable. If the company is losing money year after year, with no end in sight, the CEO is not doing his/her job and should not be making that much money. But I think it is up to the stockholders of the corporation to take care of that, NOT the government. I think the government meddles too much into the affairs of business, both to their benefit and their detriment.

I am a self-employed businessman, and I do not want the government meddling in my affairs.

I think the old anti-trust laws, before they were watered down, would have done a better job in keeping corporations competitive with each other, but that's another post and another subject.

I am a moderate, sometimes agreeing with the conservatives, sometimes with the liberals, but seldom with the extremists on either side of the fence. So I end up making "enemies" from both ends

I do know the system is broken, but I don't know how to fix it. I wish I did.

Notes
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/05/09 12:30 AM
Quote:

<...> Unlike Rush Limbaugh, I desperately want Obama to succeed and if he can clean this mess up even somewhat by applying left wing liberal principles then guess what, I'm right there with them because the Republican free market principles I thought I believed in have done squat. <...>




I too hope Obama succeeds. To wish otherwise is to want to cut your nose off to spite your face.

While I know this country was founded as a Liberal country, I do think the extremists go to far, and I don't see Obama as an extremist. On the other hand, as I posted earlier, the extreme conservatives go too far also. Everything in moderation.

And the Republican free market principles were not totally free-market, but very pro corporate under the name of free market. And the Democrats aren't the answer either.

Here is some things I've noticed about the two parties.

The Republicans tend to steal money from the taxpayers and spend it on international exploits, and the Democrats tend to steal money from the taxpayers and spend it on domestic programs.

The Republicans raise fees (a tax by any other name is still a tax) and the Democrats raise taxes.

And for me voting is a process of selecting the lesser of two evils, and that is a sad thing for me to say.

I'd like to abolish both the Democrat and Republican parties along with the Electoral College and go with a multi-party, popular vote system, even with the problems and run-offs that come with that. I also think the presidential candidate with the second highest number of votes should be vice-president with veto power.

And I'd like to make lobbyists illegal. It's not freedom of speech as they tout, but tacit bribery.

I also think that any publicly elected official, who knowingly uses the office for his/her own personal gain and at the expense of the taxpayers, from president to dog-catcher, should be given a fair trial and if found guilty be either executed or given life with no possibility of parole, depending on the severity of the crime.

But I'm drifting off the subject again.

I want my million dollar bail out because I'm over 50

Notes
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/05/09 02:34 AM
Quote:

Quote:


My only beef with GM is about their new electric car - they had an excellent start ten years ago, and killed it. Now they are pretending to be virtuous by developing an electric which isn't even a fully electric - it's a hybrid.




Jeez - they built the car. To replace the batteries would have cost more than the car was worth. They killed it because there was not a business case to continue it. I drove the EV-1 two different occasions. It was a joy to drive, but the batteries just wouldn't last.






They built a car in which to replace the energy source would have cost more than the car? I am an engineer, and if I designed things that cost more to service and/or fix than to replace, I'd be out of business too.

I'm only wondering why they didn't stay with the program. Surely battery technology is/was improving. I'd also like to know why the battery company GM invested in was sold to another company and then folded. I know what happened to the electric trolley busses. There does appear to be a credibility gap around the former big three.

There may not have been a business case at the time, but then one wonders about their foresight. I have a friend who is a chartered accountant - he says that when it comes to technlogy, put the engineers in charge, not the bean-counters - because bean-counters don't see the possibilities in a technology - they only see a bottom line. Strangely, Mr. Bean-counter Waggoner didn't even get that right.

It all comes down to this - Ford, GM and Chrysler had a huge head-start in North America, certainly over the Japanese. They had everything going their way - and it's hard to not think they blew it. GM went from No.1 in the world to bankruptcy - this is a clear sign of mismanagement - not bad luck. I know darn well that our engineers in the US and Canada can compete with the world's best, but it doesn't look like they were given a chance - management faulted on this.
Posted By: rockstar_not Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/05/09 05:16 AM
Glen,

As an engineer, you also know that some things are done for research purposes. The battery tech did not change rapidly enough.

Using your criteria of 'designing things that cost more to service and or fix', the Prius would not be for sale. It is a loss leader. That is, it costs more to produce than what they can sell it for. Replacing a single part on the Prius under warranty puts it even farther into the red.

It is an advertising machine, however - fooling people into thinking that Toyota is all about fuel economy.

We did have an engineer in charge at GM - Bob Stempel. Engineers like to play too much. Beancounters are needed to keep the sandbox the right size.

There is a balance. I don't know exactly what it is.

I do know one thing - I don't know of a single engineer that could have predicted the future in 2007; when GM was making a profit with cars that people liked, priced right, etc. Fortune telling was the skill required. Most engineers don't have that in their back pocket.

The 'blowing it' came in the Roger Smith era. Not Wagoner. Wagoner and his management team are responsible for the investment in the Volt technology - which will be a game changer available to all.

I'm sure it looks easy to diagnose the ailments from the outside. I'm living in Colorado Springs now, and it's easy to see that people just think of cars like they do their big-screen TVs. They really don't care where they are made or who makes them. Without seeing the devastation to a local economy, it's so easy to live in the happy world without that consideration. I know I do it for nearly everything I buy - so I'm casting the stone directly up in the air to come crashing down right on my own head.

So much misinformation is out there substituting as facts; GM vehicles don't last, the Volt is a hybrid, etc. etc. So much armchair quarterbacking. I've just gotta quit. PM me if I reply again to this thread for an electronic dope-slap to my head.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/05/09 12:55 PM
Quote:

<...>It all comes down to this - Ford, GM and Chrysler had a huge head-start in North America, certainly over the Japanese. They had everything going their way - and it's hard to not think they blew it. GM went from No.1 in the world to bankruptcy - this is a clear sign of mismanagement - not bad luck. I know darn well that our engineers in the US and Canada can compete with the world's best, but it doesn't look like they were given a chance - management faulted on this.




While they took home obscene salaries for running the great American car companies into the ground.

I wish I could make a salary for doing a job wrong. How many factory workers would stay if they consistently completely failed their job?

I have owned a lot of vehicles in my time, and all except 2 were US built. I bought a 1972 1/2 two cylinder Honda from my sister (nice car 49mpg highway - impossible to replace major parts) and a Fiat Spyder when I got divorced (red sports car for my second puberty). The rest were Ford, Chevy, Olds, Plymouth, and Dodge. I got the best reliability by far out of the Mopar products.

There was a quality problem in the 1970s with US cars, but they fixed that. During that era the foreign cars got their foothold in the US market. Again a management problem. I used to have a neighbor who retired from the Chrysler Corp assembly line. He said during those years the workers could have made a good car if management would have let them, but the assembly line moved so fast that the work could not be done properly by the best workers. So you miss a weld, drop a few screws, do something sloppy in a rush, miss something altogether, and go on because the next car is here already.

As in engineering, most things have to find a balance. The balance between building quality and cost effectiveness is not only in design, but in running the entire company. And when management blows it, and still get millions of dollars in bonuses, IMHO it's a major flaw in the corporation.

Now that we own almost 3/4 of GM, I hope they come out of it OK.

Notes
Posted By: JBlatz Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 12:31 AM
Hey Danny

I thought Merle line went
"When a girl could still cook and steal wood"
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 12:55 PM
How about if we get the politicians to work for $1.00 a year as the folks that came in to help AIG did? At the end of the year we could vote to see what there bonus is, based on how well they did their job! (hanging still an option!)

I wonder how many of those who "just want to serve their constituents" would still run for the job & pay massive amounts of money to get it?

Mick
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 01:03 PM
Reminds me of Churchill's declension of adjectives: "I am a statesman, you are a politician, he is a political hack."

When is the last time you heard the word "honor" in association with ANYONE in public office? 'Cause that's what it would take.

R.
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 01:24 PM
Good points, all. As a Detroit guy, I'll say this; a union guy making $30.00 and hour to put in sheet metal screws that a chimp could do.....exsecutives making millions a year sitting on there asses doing as little as possible...making cars that few people actually like.....having way too many dealers......I0's of billions of dollars ( legacy costs) paying out obnoxiously high pention and retirement benifits to both exsects and union folks.

1) Union entitlement.

2) Corporate greed.

Really; it's the same old story. Whats amazing to me is that it's taken this long for the shi.t to hit the fan.

But we need unions to keep the big guys honest so wuddaya do? I got nothin........maybe socialism is the way to go. ( Not!)
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 08:38 PM
None of us have anything, Swannie. This is the classic old cliche that our form of government is the biggest piece of crap ever invented except for everything else that's been tried. You can't dictate or legislate human nature.
As to some comments above about electric cars and why they should be produced in greater quantities etc. I knew I had read this before but I had to wait until the weekend to look it up. The big thing right now is lithium ion batteries. Has a nice high tech ring to it, right? Ever thought about where the lithium comes from and how is it produced? Check this out Autobloggreen.com There's not only no free lunch here, there's not even a snack. The other question is cost. I spent about a half hour or so searching trying to find the cost of the batteries for the Chevy Volt and nobody's saying what it is but guesses are from $4-17,000. They say the batteries should have a life of around 150,000 miles. Not bad but how many of us keep our cars in good shape for quite a long time? What is the value of a 10 year old car that still looks pretty good but needs that kind of dough to keep running? Regular gas engine cars can be worked on piecemeal, if you want to restore it or just keep it running, you can spend a few hundred here, a few hundred there, do some work yourself, etc. With the Volt or other electric car, when it comes to the batteries it's all or nothing, that's it. Here's another site that goes into this GM-volt.com Note it's not all bad news, there possibilities being discussed that could make this work out but the point is it's not been worked out yet and this is not some kind of wonderful panacea that's been hidden from us by evil corporations that's going to save the planet. Far from it.

Bob
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 09:40 PM
Re: corporate greed/union greed...
what is happening is exactly what's supposed to happen.
The correction would have been the co. going bankrupt WITHOUT govt intervention/loans.
They would either change or disappear.
Something would take it's place. (it always does)

Whatever happened to the hydrogen fuel cell car?
I've heard that govt hacks put the screws to it!
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 10:05 PM
The hydrogen car has the same problem as ethanol - at present it takes more petroleum to create a hydrogen cell or a barrel of ethanol than it saves.

And I think the gov't should have let the banks and the auto companies go bankrupt without aid. The FDIC would have protected the people with money in the bank.

But we don't have a democracy, we have an oligarchy (or a corporatocracy).

We don't have capitalism but corporationalism.

We elect the leaders and they are puppets to the multi-national corporations.

Notes
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/06/09 10:56 PM
I just read that 60 percent of personal bankrupt people in the US are at that point due to medical bills. Unless you are Bill Gates you are 1 illness away from poverty.

Here's an idea. You can get into Canada with your library card and a smile. You can't go home without a passport. So if you don't feel well....

I read about an American goes to England and has a heart attack. They wouldn't let him pay. If I was a sick American I'd jump a plane to England.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 12:07 AM
I wish the US would go for socialized medicine. I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.

IMHO the medical lobbyists pulled the strings of our governors to keep the medical costs in the US so high.

Notes
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 12:18 AM
Bob:

Good points. Something else to think about - the hydrogen atom is the smallest of all the elements - it tends to leak through everything, particularly when under pressure. The latest idea for keeping your tires from slowly going flat (air molecules do leak through rubber tires) is to use nitrogen. It's a larger molecule than oxygen, and doesn't leak out as fast as air which is about 80 percent oxygen. Propane doesn't seem to leak out of tanks or through valves because is a a long chain (large) molecule consisting of carbon and hydrogen.

There is a rumour here in BC that Ballard (the fuel cell company in Vancouver, BC) has given up on fuel cells for anything but stationary usage - they realized a while ago that hydrogen fuel cell cars weren't practical.


The definition of a corporation that I think is most accurate; "a pile of money with no conscience".

Glenn
Posted By: MarioD Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 01:03 AM
Quote:

The latest idea for keeping your tires from slowly going flat (air molecules do leak through rubber tires) is to use nitrogen. It's a larger molecule than oxygen, and doesn't leak out as fast as air which is about 80 percent oxygen.

Glenn




Glenn, you are correct about using nitrogen in tires. However I do believe that air is approximately 21% oxygen. I believe you made a typo as air contains approximately 78% nitrogen. Argon makes up the difference to 100%
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:06 AM
Quote:

I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.



I would like to see the evidence of that.
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:55 AM
I'm guessing that the reason for that mick is that we have the highest murder rate on the planet by miles and miles. That...and we live hard and party harder...;)
Posted By: D. Tuna Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 03:24 AM
Quote:

Quote:

I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.



I would like to see the evidence of that.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Life_Expectancy_2008_Estimates_CIA_World_Factbook.png

Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 03:28 AM
Quote:

Quote:

The latest idea for keeping your tires from slowly going flat (air molecules do leak through rubber tires) is to use nitrogen. It's a larger molecule than oxygen, and doesn't leak out as fast as air which is about 80 percent oxygen.

Glenn




Glenn, you are correct about using nitrogen in tires. However I do believe that air is approximately 21% oxygen. I believe you made a typo as air contains approximately 78% nitrogen. Argon makes up the difference to 100%




Mario:

You are absolutely correct - I got the numbers backwards.

So, I'm wondering; if air is only 21% O and 78% N, then how much improvement would there be with pure nitrogen? And would it be cost effective. Most places I go, air is free, but nitrogen would not be, and if you weren't close to a nitrogen filling station, what would you do - dilute the nitrogen, then have to start over again? Cost effective - or a money grab by tire shops?

I have a modest RV, and I carry an air compressor because the tires take 65 psi, and if I develop a slow leak, I'm not stranded.

Glenn
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 05:18 AM
Quote:


Quote:
I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.


I would like to see the evidence of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Life_Expectancy_2008_Estimates_CIA_World_Factbook.png
--------------------
DTuna




What I see is a web site developed according to "anyone can contribute".
I really don't take what's on the web as evidence of anything. "Your Honor...I saw it on the web"!
It's also quite possible that people live longer in spite of the type of health care, not because of it.
Posted By: D. Tuna Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 05:25 AM
Quote:

Quote:


Quote:
I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.


I would like to see the evidence of that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Life_Expectancy_2008_Estimates_CIA_World_Factbook.png
--------------------
DTuna




What I see is a web site developed according to "anyone can contribute".
I really don't take what's on the web as evidence of anything. "Your Honor...I saw it on the web"!
It's also quite possible that people live longer in spite of the type of health care, not because of it.




REFERENCES are at the bottom on the main page which was linked to in the chart.

Main Page
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 08:36 AM
Most countries who have socialized medicine don't have the illegal immigrant population we have. It can't be proven because those people don't like to be counted in a census but it makes intuitive sense that this is true. You allow in millions from third world countries with basically no health care and it's going to skew the stats as far as life expectancy and infant mortality is concerned. There's been a spike in TB and other diseases that were not a problem 30 years ago. It makes sense to me that this is due to too many third world types making their way here without going through the medical checks they were doing on Ellis Island in 1915. Others will say it's due to a failure in our health care system. I don't think so. Just like big city schools, our health care system is simply overwhelmed by illegals. Again, can't prove it but I strongly believe it's a big factor.
Also the idea that if you can't pay, you don't get health care here is a myth. By law any ER in the country has to take care of you and if you're a poor person with no assets, you will never pay for anything, it's totally free. The problem lies with so many lower income people who are working, do have some things but no insurance. They can get care in the ER too but they will go after them for the bill and it throws some of those people into bankruptcy. Still, nobody has to die in the street, everybody will get care if they need it. I totally agree that it's not right that a person can own their house, happen to lose their job and their insurance and at the same time have a major medical problem and wind up either in bankruptcy or losing their house. Somehow this needs to be addressed but it's a hugely complex issue.

Bob
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 11:06 AM
The part that amuses me about the whole arguement was when an American friend who worked for Ford, where the company paid his health insurance and medical expenses like medications etc. told me that socialized medicine was a stupid thing. He could only go to certain doctors and hospitals, and everything was paid for.

Here, where they made universal health care a right, we have the same plan, but can go wherever we want. My doctor sees me either the same day or the next, and there are 3 walk in clinics within a few miles. It's not perfect, I have a minor cataract that bothers me if I drive at night, though I pass the night vision test. But in the US if I had the cash they'd fix it for sure. So when I get close I go on the list and it takes 2 or 3 months to get it done. But I don't pay. Any Canadian has the option to cross the border (have your passport), and buy any American health care they want.

The argument that poor people get whatever for free, but the problem is the illegal immigrants, is partly solved by the ID requirements for our health care. Photo ID card, and more and more integrated health care records would mean you could never go to the doctor. You have to have ID to get the ID.

I wish I was like my wife and father. Dad's 82 and never had an operation. Was sick for 2 years as a boy with shingles, but never missed a day's work from 17 to 72 when he retired. Never went to the doctor for over 30 years. My wife's only missed work to give birith, up to 30 years without a day off.

A friend of mine was supposed to have cataract surgery in Chicago, but was saving up the 4k required and worried he'd have to work to 70 because the other eye was going too.
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 01:25 PM
I think my government should buy me a house, car, a boat,health insurance and a mistress....and bill it all to Canada.
Posted By: MarioD Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 01:27 PM
Quote:

So, I'm wondering; if air is only 21% O and 78% N, then how much improvement would there be with pure nitrogen? And would it be cost effective. Most places I go, air is free, but nitrogen would not be, and if you weren't close to a nitrogen filling station, what would you do - dilute the nitrogen, then have to start over again? Cost effective - or a money grab by tire shops?

I have a modest RV, and I carry an air compressor because the tires take 65 psi, and if I develop a slow leak, I'm not stranded.

Glenn




I’m wondering the same thing myself. I have read that there is some anti-rust benefit when using Nitrogen as Oxygen and air moisture can expedite rim rusting. However I’ve driven a number of cars over 250K miles and I never had a rim rust out yet.

The biggest plus is that air is free. Or used to be as gas stations up here charge 50 cents, USD, to start the compressor We also have our own compressor so air is still free for me
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 01:28 PM
Quote:

Quote:

I know there are a lot of people that say it's inferior, but most countries that have socialized medicine have a longer life expectancy than the USA so it can't be all that bad.



I would like to see the evidence of that.




Check this out. Compare the USA to France, Canada, England, Germany, Netherlands, Greece, Italy, - the other modern, industrialized countries that make up the bulk of our population, and if you want to include Hispanics, look at Cuba.

http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa042000b.htm

So if socialized medicine is so bad, why are the people in these countries living longer than us?

I admit, until I found this out, I too believed that private medicine was better, but looking at this one statistic shows that the media "talk radio dittohead" blitz against socialized medicine is nothing more than a corporationalist controlled campaign to keep the profit high for the US medicine system.

Leilani ran into a wall and put an inch long cut in her head. It required 5 stitches and cost $2,000.00 even with her self-pay discount. A doctor who stood at the foot of the bed for 5 seconds asked her how she was doing and immediately left charged her $800.00. Our health care system is broken, and the people funding the media want to make sure it stays broken, which is why you will hear the talk radio and political controlled TV tell all the "dittoheads" to repeat the mantra, socialized medicine is bad.

But if it was so bad, why are similar countries with socialized medicine living longer than us?

Notes
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 01:51 PM
Seems everyone in my family lives to at least 90. No exceptions so far. Big problem is almost all of them spent the last 10 years in a rocking chair by the woodstove snappin beans and peeling potatoes. My wife's grandmother lived to 103. I hate to think what kind of run down person I'll end up, but I've got the wife making cushions for the chairs and I've a snazzy new orbisform butt protector for the piano bench.

Head gashes can be nasty and women don't like scars but I'd have to need more than 5 stitches to go to the emerg and get it done, even if it's free. I crazy enough to crazy glue it, it's only my head.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:16 PM
Quote:

I'm guessing that the reason for that mick is that we have the highest murder rate on the planet by miles and miles. That...and we live hard and party harder...;)




That record belongs to South Africa today.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:18 PM
Along with that must come the auto-assumption that life-span is linked to medical care.

In other words, one must first show causality or at least some hard link between the two.

Data.

We need data.



--Mac
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:27 PM
Genocide notwithstanding
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:33 PM
Not genocide.

The present-day murder rate in South Africa.

Look it up.



--Mac
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:33 PM
Sorry I started this but I was taken aback when CNN reported that 60 percent of people who go bankrupt in the US do so because of medical bills. I had 4 hospital overnighters the past year and based on what I hear I probably would have had to sell the house. 2 MRI's 3 Cat scans, a dozen xrays an specialists. YIKES.

Now if oil will just go back up maybe my retirement nest egg will hatch again. At $100 a barell I'm fine.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 02:38 PM
Quote:

Along with that must come the auto-assumption that life-span is linked to medical care.
In other words, one must first show causality or at least some hard link between the two.
Data.
We need data.
--Mac



That's pretty much what I meant by evidence.
One could argue that third world countries have shorter life spans because of lack of health care.
It could also be lack of knowledge, lifestyle, infrastucture (water etc..) too many variables.

Not only do we need Data...Dr Beverly Crusher would be a help too!
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 03:15 PM
There are also those areas where so-called, "primitive" populations have exhibited long and even what might be labeled as "super-long" lifespans routinely for centuries to be considered...
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 05:34 PM
My daughter says I'm a neanderthal, does that count? I still think raw moose liver eaten about 10 minutes after the kill is better than steak.
Maybe you live shorter because you eat all this rubbish, like burgers. And theres so much artificial stuff in your food. I mean, of course there are Mc Donalds restaurants in Europe too. But in Austria you don`t get any burger stuff in other restaurant. I heard (dunno if it`s true) you can get burgers in almost every restaurant in the states.

just a thought...
Sandra
Posted By: Curmudgeon Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 05:39 PM
Quote:

Along with that must come the auto-assumption that life-span is linked to medical care.




I believe the average life span at the turn of the 20th century was about 40+ years of age. Today it's somewhere around 75.

I don't have hard statistics, but a few things come to mind.

After pasteurization of milk, the infant death rate dropped dramatically.

Years ago, many more women died in child birth. I believe better medical care accounts for most of the drop.

In my father's family, 10 or 11 siblings didn't get past 18 years of age, due to malaria in N.E. Arkansas. We don't hear of malaria in this country anymore. How about Yellow fever?

How about immunization for measles, diphtheria, etc. Has that not had an effect?

Don S.
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 05:46 PM
Quote:

A doctor who stood at the foot of the bed for 5 seconds asked her how she was doing and immediately left charged her $800.00. Our health care system is broken, and the people funding the media want to make sure it stays broken, which is why you will hear the talk radio and political controlled TV tell all the "dittoheads" to repeat the mantra, socialized medicine is bad.

But if it was so bad, why are similar countries with socialized medicine living longer than us?

Notes




Good points here Notes. A bit of perspective on the $800 doctors bill. Most younger doc's are sitting on $200-300,000 in student loans that must be paid off. They are also paying several hundred grand a year in malpractice insurance. The biggest problem I have with Democrats in this area is the fact that they are owned by the trial lawyers who make literally millions in malpractice cases like our philandering former presidential candidate John Edwards. Ever see his house? 25,000 square feet.
I took the time some months ago to look up malpractice awards in Canada and I found a reference to a Canadian Supreme Court cast that capped it at something like $300,000 or so. I haven't studied this in depth so I could be wrong, maybe John can chime in on that. Whatever it is, I do know for a fact that no other country that we use as an example of health care has our legal tort system that allows for mega million dollar jury awards in malpractice cases. You notice there is nary a word about this in the current debate. It's because Obama is a lawyer, and the trial lawyers are the single biggest contributors to the Democratic party. You think the unions are big contributors, check out the lawyers. Between the schooling costs and malpractice insurance, there's your five minute $800 bill.

Bob
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 06:01 PM
Quote:

Maybe you live shorter because you eat all this rubbish, like burgers. And theres so much artificial stuff in your food. I mean, of course there are Mc Donalds restaurants in Europe too. But in Austria you don`t get any burger stuff in other restaurant. I heard (dunno if it`s true) you can get burgers in almost every restaurant in the states.

just a thought...
Sandra




That one did bring a smile to my face Sandra . . . the answer is yes we can get burgers in almost any restaurants in the US but we can also get any other type of food. Bottom-line is . . . If it sells you can buy it here. Are you telling us that in Austria restaurants are limited as to what they can put on a menu, or do other restaurants just choose not to offer them to their customers?

PS: If you are only getting McDonald’s version of a burger then you are really not getting burgers at all.

Later,
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 06:09 PM
Just a thought but I wonder if the millions of babies we kill every year in the name of "Pro Choice" are factored into our longevity rate?

Just wondering,
Of course there`s no restriction to what restaurants put on their menu. People just don`t like fast food here so much. Austrians (and some other European countries too) are big time bio-food consumers. Austria denied the gen-corn that is imported from the US, but the EU sewed us for that, now we have that damn gen-corn but it has to be declared as such.

Sandra
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 06:41 PM
Keep in mind a "Real" hamburger cooked properly is not considered fast food in the US either. I'd just love to have you visit my home where you can get a sample of a real tasty 1/2 pounder with that good old Cajun Seasoning, HMMMMMMM!

Take Care,
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 06:44 PM
Quote:

I heard (dunno if it`s true) you can get burgers in almost every restaurant in the states.

just a thought...
Sandra




That one is not true, Sandra.



--Mac
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 06:46 PM
There are two charts here for what they are worth; the CIA and the UN charts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

But I would caution anyone that it's difficult to relate life expectancy to state run health care because there are cultural factors to consider that affect what people eat, and this in turn affects health and lifespan.

For example, in Canada, our food choices are very close to those of the USA - both countries rely too much on the easy availability of fast food outlets like MacDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, etc. It really shows up in the girth of our populations - both countries have an obesity problem. I am continually struck by the number of overweight teenage girls when I walk downtown - they're becoming the new "beautiful".

In Africa, starvation is one of the major factors affecting lifespan - in addition to genocide and AIDS.

Glenn
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 06:47 PM
Don't overlook Genetics as yet another contributing factor.


--Mac
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 07:04 PM
Yes...I firmly aggree that "burgers" must be the culprit. We americans also eat far too much pork too. We're all damned and doomed.
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 07:35 PM
My uncles a doc. He's 72, still does emerg and surgery assists every couple of days unless he's travelling. Had a country practice, big purebread hereford farm, and a dairy farm. Often saw him come in from the barn in rubber boots and his suit to sew up some other farmer in the office on the side of his house. His daughter (my cousin and her husband wouldn't take his practice, they are both GP's too). They wanted no part of his regular 18 hour days, 7 days a week and 8,000 patients.

He told me no doc he ever knew got sued for malpractice. But my ex wife was a nurse and the gas passing doc got sued, but turned out the thing was bogus. They caught the woman who went to court in a wheelchair walking in the mall during the court case. Dismissed.

Any article I've read states that it's the accounting that's the big problem. Here no one cares if you use a qtip, or swab, or bottle of whatever. You need it you get it.

A local paper reported that some surgeries are being done in border towns in the US on a fixed price basis. A friend down the street went to Henry Ford Hospital for gastric by-pass paid for by the Ontario gov't. Cheaper than sending him to Toronto.

They buy 100 cases or something a year, at a flat rate. Cross border medicine.
@Danny,
thanx for the invitation
I don`t like meat very much, though - I only eat chicken. But if you make a chicken burger for me ... that cajun thing sounds great.

@Mac
thanks for clarifying.

@Swanman
Nobody damns you. But don`t you agree that nutrition might be at least one of more factors for a longer or shorter life?

Sandra
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 09:31 PM
The assumption that the United States general population contains a majority of people who eat "wrong" is just that, an assumption.

I have read some studies that put the blame of shortened lifespan on stress...

There are very likely to be *many* factors involved.

Those who have an agenda will, of course, use whatever they can find to push the agenda forward.

Someone once said, "You are what you eat."

Someone else, perhaps much wiser, said, "All things in moderation."

--Mac
Posted By: Curmudgeon Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 09:58 PM
A friend was telling us about his grandfather who came from Russia. He said that he lived to be 113 and smoked everything he could get his hands on.

I wisecracked, "Just think how how he would have lived if he hadn't smoked."

Don S.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 10:40 PM
He couldn't have lived for 113 years in Russia without a lotta WODKA to go along with them cigarettes...
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/07/09 11:28 PM
Actually I never thought that cigs caused all the problems, the filters did. I smoked for 26 years, because I started work early in logging camps you had to roll your own. Tailor mades caused fires.

But, I quit due to economics. We pay huge taxes on cigs, and I was spending the same amount of cash as a new van cost me every month, so I got a van for the 5 kids.

And I don't think booze in even minor excess is a problem. But again that's my take on it. As I have a rye and water.

I do think all you can eat $10 buffets that you see in the US are a bad idea.

So far today I had an omega 3 egg on rye with caraway, 1 cup of coffee and 3 glasses of tap water for breakfast.

Then a piece of bacon, 2 slices of tomatoe and lettuce with a small dollop of mayo and a piece of black rye for lunch.

Then a beer.

Then skinless boneless chcken thighs in a curry sauce with peas for supper.

And a rye and water.

And a rye and water.

It's whiskey on a Sunday.

Monday it's Italian red wine!

Fergetaboutit. Go to the matresses.

Mac is right, there are restaurants that don't serve burgers in the US. But the BBQ is mean in most of those places.

Or the seafood if you are in the south or south east.

Can't talk about California, or Oregon. 2 states I've missed.
Posted By: Keith from Oz Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 11:22 AM
There was a lady who was celebrating her 100th birthday, and the local television station came round to interview her.
They rolled the camera and asked "To what do you owe your longevity?"
She replied "I have never drunk alcohol, I have never smoked, and I have never been with a man, and today I am celebrating my 100th birthday.
The TV reporter replied "How?......."
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 11:39 AM
Quote:

Someone else, perhaps much wiser, said, "All things in moderation."

--Mac




INCLUDING MODERATION!!!

lol,
R.
Posted By: Shackman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 12:56 PM
Actually re the comment above about socialised medicine, and yes, I'm going right off topic here. But please bear with me. I've just made 100 posts and am celebrating becoming an Enthusiast!

While travelling in the States in '97 I remember chatting with a taxi driver in Indianapolis. His mood was good until we happened to talk around the subject of medical care and its cost in your country. Seems his nephew had leukaemia and needed a bone marrow transplant. I was shocked to hear that it was going to cost
$100,000 US and one of his immediate family would have to sell their house to fund this (I presume because the family had no medical insurance). No guarantee that it alone would do the trick, mind you. I'm sure there was a heap more expensive treatment besides.

Although here in Australia we don't have socialism as such, a federal government of a mildly leftish persuasion (think Democrats or European labour parties) had actually instituted universal health insurance back in the mid 1970's and it persists in a largely unchanged form, despite many changes of government since. You can still buy additional health coverage if you wish which entitles you to choice of doc and maybe choice of hospital. But if you go public, as I do, (and I might add I've worked in public hospitals for 28 years), you will almost certainly get world standard health care for no more than your regular income taxes. If you make the average full time adult income of about $50-60,000 dollars a year, those taxes will be about 15-17% of that gross. Not a huge impost, I would have thought.

Now, Australia is a prosperous and well off country by most economic indicies. But the U.S.A. is more prosperous. Last I saw the stats it remained the richest country in the world most any way you analyse it.
I'm not a red ragger, that is, a leftist sympathiser or activist. Not at all. In fact I detest the Godless humanism
I see sweeping into Western societies all over the world. But I sincerely reccommend to you that if universal health coverage is achievable and affordable in my country it surely is in yours.

The above has been brought home to me all the more, with thanks to God that I live here, by the illness of my cousin's son this last 12 months- an acute myeloid leukaemia of a particularly nasty type (Philadelphia chromosomes). This in a strapping 22 year old extremely athletic basketballer. He has needed every far out and funky medical treatment and procedure I know of in Oncology and then some. BMT's, spinal taps aplenty, stem cell transplant(s), induced graft versus host disease, chemo after chemo after etc etc.

So- socialism- no. But Medicare (as UHC is known here)- absoloutely. And thank God for it. Try it. I guarantee that after you adjust to the idea you'll like it.

In any case, stay well.

John
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 02:25 PM
Said to say but many people in making choices choose the likes of the latest cell phones (some even for their grade school children) autos/trucks with the latest wheels and sound systems (of which many are financed not only the vehicles but the wheels and sound systems) and trips to casinos that they also cannot afford instead of spending that money health insurance. Just watch a judge show or Maury Povich on American TV every now and then and it will hit you square in the face. With this said the cell phone companies, auto accessory and casinos are doing very well and I’d never fault them for their success.

Back when I worked for Jack Daniel's there was a saying the tour guides at the distillery would use when asked by a tourist, "how many people work here"? Their answer was always, "oh, about half of them". It was funny then but not anymore as that is just about the number of citizens currently working and paying taxes in the US. My point is that many more people could indeed afford healthcare, especially if they got on a plan in their younger years, but they choose to spend their and the tax payer's money elsewhere. Or God forbid even “worked” for a company who offered healthcare.

Keep in mind the US government does not produce, manufacture or sell anything; they get their money for these programs from the 50% of people still working and paying taxes. So as much as I'd like to give additional help to fund Government Healthcare I simply can't afford to do so.

Remember some of the scariest words ever heard in America, “we are with the government and we are here to help you”.

PS: John, it is not only universal healthcare in the US, it is the ever growing "cradle to grave" taxpayer funded programs that keep generations owing their loyalties to certain politicians that worry me, and socialized medicine is just another one of those programs.

God Bless America!
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 05:35 PM
Quote:

Just a thought but I wonder if the millions of babies we kill every year in the name of "Pro Choice" are factored into our longevity rate?

Just wondering,



Of course not. If they don't have a birth certificate, they aren't in the statistics.

And millions of babies and pro choice are religious labels. I was brought up not to impose my religious beliefs on other people.

My religion says abortion is wrong, so I don't do it (of course, I can't, I'm male) but if somebody else's belief says it's OK, they should have the right. I am in charge of my moral obligations, NOT big brother.

Notes
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 05:38 PM
Quote:

Keep in mind the US government does not produce, manufacture or sell anything; they get their money for these programs from the 50% of people still working and paying taxes. So as much as I'd like to give additional help to fund Government Healthcare I simply can't afford to do so.

Remember some of the scariest words ever heard in America, “we are with the government and we are here to help you”.




Here's something else for the 50% to pay for:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/U...EMPLATE=DEFAULT


And I can hardly wait to be a part owner of some vehicle companies.

Glenn
Posted By: Curmudgeon Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 05:59 PM
Quote:

Keep in mind the US government does not produce, manufacture or sell anything; they get their money for these programs from the 50% of people still working and paying taxes. So as much as I'd like to give additional help to fund Government Healthcare I simply can't afford to do so.




Printing presses really come in handy in a money crunch, eh?

Don S.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 07:53 PM
Quote:

Printing presses really come in handy in a money crunch, eh?

Don S.




Quote:

"We can spend all we want, we'll make more!" -Unidentified US congressman




Quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largesse out of the public treasury." -Alexis de Tocqueville




R.


Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 09:26 PM
It is amazing how many Americans truly believe that this republic is a democracy.

Among the many other amazing things they believe also, that is...


--Mac
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 10:42 PM
I do not need lessons in this country's form of government. My father is a political scientist who taught Constitutional law at the Master's level. I receive daily reminders of what this country was, and what it is becoming.

The United States did not begin as a democracy; this was anathema to the Founders. It is either becoming one, or it is a plutocracy which maintains its power by maintaining the fiction of this country's being a democracy--defined as pandering to the masses, at which it is VERY good.

In either case, it is out of the control of the middle class and those who hold to the Constitution, which established a republic. Viz. the several states which are passing resolutions demanding the the Federal government return to the mandates of the Constitution.

R.

P.S.: Did anyone see the news item a few days ago in which a US court upheld the "right" of the police to use a taser to force a suspect to submit a DNA sample? Let me see--use of torture to coerce self implication in a crime . . . Didn't the freakin CONSTITUTION have something to say about that?

Republic, my ass.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 10:50 PM
I would have used a billy club. Batteries cost money.

Nuthin' like a good piece 'o Ash...
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/08/09 11:13 PM
LOL!!

R.
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 02:06 AM
The main Toronto newspaper had an article about the good old piece of ash and how that in this recession those who ply the oldest of professions are getting 1/3 of what they did before and how there is no bailout planned....LOL
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 03:00 AM
Quote:

Quote:

Just a thought but I wonder if the millions of babies we kill every year in the name of "Pro Choice" are factored into our longevity rate?

Just wondering,


My religion says abortion is wrong, so I don't do it (of course, I can't, I'm male) but if somebody else's belief says it's OK, they should have the right. I am in charge of my moral obligations, NOT big brother.

Notes




What makes you think I feel differently? But just for the record if I were on a standing on a street corner and Notes was being attacked with the intent being his demise, I would not stand by without trying to stop his attacker. Come to think of it, it might just be "my" moral obligation to try to save Notes' life, but I won't know that until judgment day I guess.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 03:22 AM
Quote:

... it might just be "my" moral obligation to try to save Notes' life,...





And I'd wade in there if for no other reason than it would be a chance to kick some butt...


--Mac
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 05:39 AM
Quote:

The main Toronto newspaper had an article about the good old piece of ash and how that in this recession those who ply the oldest of professions are getting 1/3 of what they did before and how there is no bailout planned....LOL




Hmm . . . was that in "Local News", "Finance", or "City Living"? And who, precisely and specifically, did the market research?

We have a consumer-advocate type here in Atlanta who'd prolly tout the cheap ride (he majors in discount travel), were this not the buckle of the Bible Belt.

R.
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 12:44 PM
Quote:

<...>What makes you think I feel differently? But just for the record if I were on a standing on a street corner and Notes was being attacked with the intent being his demise, I would not stand by without trying to stop his attacker. Come to think of it, it might just be "my" moral obligation to try to save Notes' life, but I won't know that until judgment day I guess.




And I would do the same for you and any other human being.

However, a fetus is a different story, especially in the first 3 months. The way I figure it is at that point it is a religious and moral decision, and it is not up to the government to tell anyone what to do. Furthermore, since I am a male, I have less to say about it than any female unless the fetus she was carrying is my own.

Scientists cannot determine the point of conception. Sometimes many sperm cells enter the egg and it takes the egg days to eject the ones it doesn't want. Even when one is left, it may take even more days than that before the sperm and the egg actually combine. And most eggs with sperm inside actually never adhere to the woman's womb resulting in natural abortions.

Our republic was founded on a separation of church and state. It was done so because the founding fathers were well aware of the abuses that had gone on in Europe due to the fact that church and state were combined. Separation of church and state actually protects religion, and allows everybody to practice the faith that they choose to (in most cases the faith of their parents).

Here is something I noticed about the anti-abortionists in a town close to mine.

There is a strip center with a woman's referral center in it. They refer women to all their health needs, including an abortion if necessary, but from what I understand and read in the papers, they only refer to abortionists as a last resort and they try to exhaust all other options first, including adoption.

On the other end of the shopping center is an armed forces recruiting center. These people are taking young men and women who have mothers, fathers, and in many cases wives, husbands and/or children and they are sending them to Iraq. Keep in mind that our former president, in the name of Jesus (the Prince Of Peace) broke one commandment by bearing false witness against his neighbor (WMDs - any stooge knew Iraq didn't have them) and then sent our troops over there to die and to kill another 100,000 non military Iraq citizens (breaking another commandment - where is he going to go on judgment day?)

Who are the people picketing every day for years now? The woman's referral office. The people who sometimes refer women to abort a less than 3 month old fetus and refer more to adoption than they do to abortion. The organization that is killing adults every day is not being picketed.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the utmost respect for our men and women in the armed forces, and my daughter is serving in the Air Force. These people are carrying out the wishes of our government and in most cases at the best of their ability, just like they should. I do not always agree with what our government asks them to do however.

But the point is, why picket the woman's referral office when at the other end of the shopping center adults are being murdered every day?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Except for the fact that war is very profitable for the Federal Reserve Bank and a few of the military contractors, most of which either own or are supporters of the mass media.

At least that's my guess.

And back on the issue of socialized medicine, here is a chart from the US government.

This is the only statistic I need to see that socialized medicine is not the big bug-a-boo that Fox, Limbaugh and other corporate controlled medial outlets say it is. These people make up the majority of our population with the exception of Africans and Hispanics, and Cuba has plenty of them, they have socialized medicine, and they also have a longer life expectancy.

As a moderate, I think some things should be socialized and others should be free market (with controls to prevent cartels and monopolies). School, police, fire, military, and medicine are the 5 that I think should be socialized. Four out of 5 are already socialized. If the people in industrialized countries were paying a penalty for socialized medicine, I'd be against it, but they are living longer so they must be doing something right.

Back to the bail-out - which started as a joke. I don't think the banks, insurance companies, or automobile companies should have been bailed out. It actually would have taken less money to bail out the workers. But the way I see it, the people elect our governors and our governors are puppets of the oligarchy - the multi-national corporations.

Notes
Posted By: Lawrie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 01:22 PM
Quote:


However, a fetus is a different story, especially in the first 3 months. The way I figure it is at that point it is a religious and moral decision, and it is not up to the government to tell anyone what to do. Furthermore, since I am a male, I have less to say about it than any female unless the fetus she was carrying is my own.





I don't want to get into an emotive argument here, this is not the place for it, but I just couldn't leave this comment alone - with the greatest of respect Notes, this is a cop out. Once fertilised, that egg is human. It ain't gonna hatch out as a frog, or a cat, or a lizard, or anything other than a human being. To suggest that a foetus is not yet human is simply a sop to the conscience so people can feel good about killing their young. And you haven't even mentioned the push for abortions even up to full term. Nine months after conception it would be legally murder, why should being in utero make any difference?

Any society that destroys its own young is doomed to collapse.

This will be my last word on this subject in this forum.
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 02:51 PM
Let's get back on track, 'K?

I would like my Canadian friends here to read the following article and give us some insight into their experiences:

Canadian doctor talks about problems with healthcare system.

I'm getting the notion that the largest problem is the way people view the situation digitally. Either/Or, One/Zero, All/None type of thing.

When confronted with such at the design table, experience has taught me that the elegant answer very often lies in between the extremes.


--Mac
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 04:27 PM
Quote:

Let's get back on track, 'K?

I would like my Canadian friends here to read the following article and give us some insight into their experiences:

Canadian doctor talks about problems with healthcare system.

I'm getting the notion that the largest problem is the way people view the situation digitally. Either/Or, One/Zero, All/None type of thing.

When confronted with such at the design table, experience has taught me that the elegant answer very often lies in between the extremes.


--Mac




I'll give you a hint at what most Canadians think of our health care system - overall:

1. We realize that there are wait times - and often these are problematic.

2. We wish we could do better, but often other expenditures get priority - like 10 billion dollars to General Motors from our federal government - our health care system wouldn't need 10 billion to make it the best in the world - but apparently we need a lot of new cars more badly. This is what happens when we put politicians in charge of our tax money - when emergencies crop up, they panic and do stupid things. GM is not going to survive (we can discuss this elsewhere).

3. Two or three years ago, our national broadcasting system held an open contest - anyone could nominate some well known Canadian for the position of "Most Important Canadian". All Canadians could cast a ballot. Tommy Douglas (the socialist premier of Saskatchewan, the province where I was born and lived for fifty years, and developed the first universal health care system in North America) was the hands down winner. He is truly thought of as THE Canadian hero. Keep in mind that there are socialist canditates in all federal and provincial elections, but only four provinces have elected a socialist government. This is the first reason why universal health care will never happen in the US.

4. If you asked the same question today about who was the most important Canadian, you would get the same result. The odd thing is that although politicians are not well thought of in Canada in general, Tommy Douglas was a politician (maybe this is the most important piece of evidence).

To conclude: Our doctors are not clamouring to abolish universal health care, so be careful not to be mislead by a dissenting opinion, particularly if it agrees with you - there will always be dissenting opinions. The doctors that leave Canada for the US primarily go for the money; the money is definitely better in the US for a doctor - think about this one carefully, but you may not like the results.

Glenn
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 04:31 PM
Actually the original topic of this thread was the Bail-Out Plan:

I read this in today's comics (from a strip called Tina's Groove):


Tina is in the bank, and the banker says to her, "Ma'am for a low monthly fee City Bank is offering unlimited financial counseling".

Tina's reply, "Let me get this straight - the BANK is offering ME financial advice"?
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 04:36 PM
I should get frequent flyer miles at the hospital, but I never wait. Triage. The cut fingers and kids with sore throats on Sunday night have to wait. Tough

Here's an American's take on our system after living in Canada. From the National Post.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs...bout-canda.aspx
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 05:05 PM
Here is the problem with government health care.

The underlying rationale is that health care is a right. This sounds good, a common factor in progressive (what Americans commonly call "liberal") schemes. The problem with that is that, unlike human rights, such as those laid forth in the American Bill of Rights, which are deemed to be granted by a power greater than ourselves, health care must be provided by individuals. Real people, not a (perhaps notional) God.

Either there are enough people--health-care workers such as doctors, nurses, and all allied fields--to provide these services, or there are not. If there are not, two things happen. Care is rationed, and/or providers become government workers. They are told whether or not to practice, and what to practice, when, often where, and upon whom to practice medicine. They are also told how much they will be paid for these services. Under "Hillarycare", private practice would even have been outlawed, with criminal sanctions.

Rather than be dictated to and having their potential income limited, many who would otherwise enter the field choose to do other things. (My ex-wife, a health-care professional, was discouraging our three children from going into medicine 15 years ago for this reason.) Many in the field leave it, thus resulting in an inevitable shortage of care--unless they are required to remain, at which point they become highly-skilled slaves.

Why do American politicians insist on trying, in the face of its failure everywhere it has been tried? Apart from the obvious largesse to their largely nonproductive voter base, the American Democrat party has been hijacked by True Believers. These people are capital-C communists in all but name. If you ask them directly--which no one in our mainly leftist press will do--they will simply say that it (universal health care or communism, your choice) has never had a "fair chance", that there were factors preventing it from working elsewhere. Surely we, with our Yankee ingenuity--but guided by the shades of Marx and Vladimir Ilyich---will make it work here.

They thereby ignore, in the name of "compassion", human nature, which has not and will not change, and arrogate unto themselves dictatorial powers to implement their schemes over the objections of the actual majority which is required to pay for it all. (That would be you middle- and upper-middle-class workers and entrepreneurs--far less than 50% of the population--who pay 95% of the income taxes in this country.)

And my signature line, which I used to use here but have never removed from my primary email account, because it never stops being appropriate: "To know nothing of what happened before you were born is to remain forever a child." -Cicero

Those who now propose to lead us into socialized medicine in the name of the greater good are just such children, with all the foresight and awareness of consequences that children have.

Richard Letaw
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 05:22 PM
There isn't much point in discussing or debating the pros and cons of universal health care (discussion between Canadians and Americans), because it is a societal choice and our societies are different - not better or worse - just different.

I'm not going to read the dissertations as to why universal health care is no good, and you fellows south of 49 aren't interested in dissertations as to why it is good.

We have made our choice, and for the most part we are satisfied with it.

You have made your choice, and for the most part you are satisfied with it.

The British and Aussies drive on the left side of the road - we use the right. Neither system is better - just different, and they both work.

These things aren't going to change. Let's leave it at that.

Ryszard stated (and others agreed) that the US is not a democracy - I'm not going to debate or discuss that either - it's none of my business.

Glenn

PS - Ryszard - your dissertation was so good, I copied it for future reference.
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/09/09 08:05 PM
Quote:

Quote:

<...>What makes you think I feel differently? But just for the record if I were on a standing on a street corner and Notes was being attacked with the intent being his demise, I would not stand by without trying to stop his attacker. Come to think of it, it might just be "my" moral obligation to try to save Notes' life, but I won't know that until judgment day I guess.




And I would do the same for you and any other human being.

However, a fetus is a different story, especially in the first 3 months. The way I figure it is at that point it is a religious and moral decision, and it is not up to the government to tell anyone what to do. Furthermore, since I am a male, I have less to say about it than any female unless the fetus she was carrying is my own.

Because you are male I guess you have no say so even if the child being aborted was yours. It does not work like that in my family. But to each his/her choice, that is as long as that choice does not affect my family as then it becomes my choice also.

Scientists cannot determine the point of conception. Sometimes many sperm cells enter the egg and it takes the egg days to eject the ones it doesn't want. Even when one is left, it may take even more days than that before the sperm and the egg actually combine. And most eggs with sperm inside actually never adhere to the woman's womb resulting in natural abortions.

Some scientist cannot determine what color socks to where with a tux either, therefore I do not take their word "as Gospel" either.

Our republic was founded on a separation of church and state. It was done so because the founding fathers were well aware of the abuses that had gone on in Europe due to the fact that church and state were combined. Separation of church and state actually protects religion, and allows everybody to practice the faith that they choose to (in most cases the faith of their parents).

Here is something I noticed about the anti-abortionists in a town close to mine.

There is a strip center with a woman's referral center in it. They refer women to all their health needs, including an abortion if necessary, but from what I understand and read in the papers, they only refer to abortionists as a last resort and they try to exhaust all other options first, including adoption.

I guess some look at abortion as a health need

On the other end of the shopping center is an armed forces recruiting center. These people are taking young men and women who have mothers, fathers, and in many cases wives, husbands and/or children and they are sending them to Iraq. Keep in mind that our former president, in the name of Jesus (the Prince Of Peace) broke one commandment by bearing false witness against his neighbor (WMDs - any stooge knew Iraq didn't have them) and then sent our troops over there to die and to kill another 100,000 non military Iraq citizens (breaking another commandment - where is he going to go on judgment day?)

Was our former president the only one who believed there were WMD's in Iraq? Come on you know the answer to that. There was a montage with the likes of just about every well know democrat touting the action against Iraq because of the "WMD" on Youtube for years but it has since been removed. And are you calling those famous democrats stooges also? Is the Bush hating will never stop, I pity the haters.

Who are the people picketing every day for years now? The woman's referral office. The people who sometimes refer women to abort a less than 3 month old fetus and refer more to adoption than they do to abortion. The organization that is killing adults every day is not being picketed.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing but the utmost respect for our men and women in the armed forces, and my daughter is serving in the Air Force. These people are carrying out the wishes of our government and in most cases at the best of their ability, just like they should. I do not always agree with what our government asks them to do however

1st of all congratulations and appreciation to your daughter for her service to our country from my family, Navy, Air Force and the latest Iraq duty Army. But while you state you have the utmost respect for our military you refer to them as the organization that is killing adults everyday. That is sort of like being a little but pregnant, it's impossible. To me this is an either/or situation and if it's you respect them, then how can you call them murderers?

With that said all I can offer is for you to keep in mind they are all military volunteers and over the age of 18, much unlike the millions of aborted "baby humans" who have no say so whatsoever as they are being sucked out of the womb and discarded in trash cans and plastic bags. But the late terms are a little older, 7-8 months I guess and they don't have names.

But the point is, why picket the woman's referral office when at the other end of the shopping center adults are being murdered every day?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

I guess it never will, just as some of your views and rationale just doesn’t make sense to me either.

Except for the fact that war is very profitable for the Federal Reserve Bank and a few of the military contractors, most of which either own or are supporters of the mass media.

At least that's my guess.

That is exactly why we have ever gone to war. I think that is a bad guess.

And back on the issue of socialized medicine, here is a chart from the US government.

This is the only statistic I need to see that socialized medicine is not the big bug-a-boo that Fox, Limbaugh and other corporate controlled medial outlets say it is. These people make up the majority of our population with the exception of Africans and Hispanics, and Cuba has plenty of them, they have socialized medicine, and they also have a longer life expectancy.

As a moderate, I think some things should be socialized and others should be free market (with controls to prevent cartels and monopolies). School, police, fire, military, and medicine are the 5 that I think should be socialized. Four out of 5 are already socialized. If the people in industrialized countries were paying a penalty for socialized medicine, I'd be against it, but they are living longer so they must be doing something right.

I thought you were not your brother's keeper. Socialism is the poster card for "my brother's keeper". I believe in the free market, and government staying out of my life by letting me make my own decisions, period.

Back to the bail-out - which started as a joke. I don't think the banks, insurance companies, or automobile companies should have been bailed out. It actually would have taken less money to bail out the workers. But the way I see it, the people elect our governors and our governors are puppets of the oligarchy - the multi-national corporations.

Notes




I am with you there Notes, except I think the people who elect our government, do mean well but for the most part are too easily led by so called leaders, i.e. media, celebrities and politicians. See we do agree on something’s. By the way do you have any idea where "our" money our President and congress is still giving away is being spent?

Notes I give up, these replies take tooooo long. We may never agree on some of these issues but I full heartily respect your opinions and the right to voice them.

With that said I am going to spend the new couple of days putting together playlist for next month’s gigs.

Over and out – God Bless you and especially your daughter serving our country.


Until Later,
Quote:


The imports are not without their problems, but we blithely assume they are always better. I think it has something to do with the "grass being greener on the other side of the fence".




Haha amen - having owned nothing but "imports" in my time driving, I'll be the first to say that my various Volvos, Benzes, Toyotas, Land Rovers, etc have been in the shop a LOT Then again, they're generally pretty old vehicles (the combined age of my cars right now is 90 years). At least I've never seen the door come off any of them like I did my brother's Ford Escort (fell completely off when we stopped at a gas station once - couldn't believe it <g>)... I'm sure that's not normal though.

I'll never buy an American car, but not because they're not any good... Just the ones I could afford aren't any good
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 12:03 AM
Theories and treatises as to why universal health care can't and won't work have always reminded me of the bumblebee - aeronautical engineers analyzed bumblebees and claimed they shouldn't be able to fly. But they kept on flying anyway.

I'd enjoy reading more theories!!

Glenn
Posted By: John Conley Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 12:26 AM
We are short on rights vis a vis the US of Eh.

The can bear arms.

Our women can walk around with no tops on.

They have the right to carry around a gun.

We have a right to get health care.

They have the right to remain silent but never do.

We have the right lose confidence in the government and have an election every other day.

They gotta wait until the 'term' is over.

We have the right to enter our country without a passport.

If they leave a coutnry they have to prove they are Mericans by showing a passport.

We have the right to to regular medical care provided by the governemt, or in go the Medcare or Medpoint and pay for a 3 hour physical with all the scans and whatever, or just go to the regular doc and pay squat.

We have the right to watch Sicko and shake our heads.

It will never resolve itself,

1. They have decided we are a commie nation.
2. They won every war and are omnipotent.
3. They know the only god.
4. They are the saviours of the free world.
5. They never caused any recession, they have the bestest financial system ever invented.
6. They make the best stuff, cars, sandals, beef, chicken, and ribs.

Just face facts, we are the worst, most inferior, commie, egg sucking bunch of idiots that ever landed on the planet. Amazing.

Oh, and I bet they soon will say they invented Band in a Box....

Never mind, I've got duct tape, and my stick is on the ice.

I'm taking a month self inposed time out....let the weak who arrive at the shores call up live help or the 1 800 number...but wait...if they did that they might have to prove they own a real copy....of Band in a Box...have I been helping posers all this time???

I was told to look beyond the narrow limitations of political or religious institutions.

I'm sticking by that.

I'm crawlling back in the socialist hole for one more time....my BP is rising Mama, how high's the water?
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 03:12 AM
Quote:

They thereby ignore, in the name of "compassion", human nature, which has not and will not change, and arrogate unto themselves dictatorial powers to implement their schemes over the objections of the actual majority which is required to pay for it all. (That would be you middle- and upper-middle-class workers and entrepreneurs--far less than 50% of the population--who pay 95% of the income taxes in this country.)




What's compassion got to do with it? We discovered that a workforce that was looked after medically would be healthier and more able to work - and contribute to society (that's spelled t-a-x-e-s).

Dictatorial? We still think we're running a democracy, and the last time I checked, the leaders that implemented health care were elected democratically and believe it or not, got re-elected after they implemented the system (and continue to do so). And as far as I know, there isn't a dictatorship in the world that has universal health care. But I'm not be sure about Zimbabwe, maybe they have a system I'm not aware of. Incidentally the health care system in Iraq fell apart AFTER the invasion.

Far less than 50% of the population paying for it? As far as I know, everyone that is employed pays his share.

The unfortunate rich people will have to help out in the form of higher taxes? That's truly a shame - why it's enough to make one quit amassing a fortune. I've often wondered where the wealthy acquired their wealth? Do they print it?

Please tell me - how can the richest nation on Earth not afford a universal health care system?
Posted By: Curmudgeon Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 04:58 AM
Quote:

When confronted with such at the design table, experience has taught me that the elegant answer very often lies in between the extremes.




You're right Mac. I'm at one extreme. I have excellent health care insurance. A good example of the other extreme is the health care system in Haiti. Cash on the barrel head or you die. Do we want that here?

Don S.
Posted By: Curmudgeon Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 05:06 AM
Quote:

It will never resolve itself,

1. They have decided we are a commie nation.
2. They won every war and are omnipotent.
3. They know the only god.
4. They are the saviours of the free world.
5. They never caused any recession, they have the bestest financial system ever invented.
6. They make the best stuff, cars, sandals, beef, chicken, and ribs.





Maybe 30 days off will do you good, John. I don't know how we'll make it though, without your daily reminders of all our short comings and our reliance on one God. Incidentally I have a lot of Canadian friends who share that same reliance.

Don S.
Posted By: Shackman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 05:41 AM
An absorbing thread, as are many here, full of thoughtful contributions that make me and I guess many of us think critically about our pet assumptions and viewpoints .

May I add a correction to my claim above about the average level of annual income tax payed by the average full time adult income earner In Australia. I overlooked stating that there is a 1.5% levy on your annual income tax specifically to pay for the UHC system we call Medicare here. However, the total income tax figure I stated of $15-17,000 Australian dollars a year on an average annual full time adult income of $50,000-60,000 AUD includes the Medicare levy and thus remains correct.

So in short, on $55,000 annually you'd pay maybe $850 a year Medicare levy. Children, juveniles, students, pensioners and those on social welfare of some kind, eg. unemployed, disabled etc. get UHC for free. Regarding immigrants, you only have to qualify for permanent residency here to get it- don't even have to take out citizenship. Unbelievable largesse, really.

I'm no pinko, but having seen UHC in action from both sides of the bedrail for at least a generation I am solidly sold on it. However, I accept that societally it is a huge change of gears from for-profit health care, and possibly is just a bridge too far for the USA. Whether for good or bad, your whole culture just seem to be significantly more dollar-driven than mine.
Certainly different, to concur with Glenn above. But- worse...or better?

John
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 06:52 AM
Just to put a different light on this, we all have basically been comparing the US system to mostly Canada but also the UK and Australia. Commonwealth countries. I have a good friend who's from Paris and we had this discussion a few years ago and since I lived in Canada for 12 years, I started making the same points we've been talking about here. He told me that's all wrong when it comes to France, that the French system is much better than either the US or Canadian models and he told me to look it up. I thought he was just being a nationalist but I did look it up, there's several websites that compare the health care systems worldwide and you know what? He's right. The French system is not the Canadian or English ones. I can't go into all the details but the main point is it's a combination public and private system and I'm struck by the fact that that is sort of what Obama is talking about now. Conservatives love making fun of the French and if it were to be announced that it's the French system being used as a model, Limbaugh, Hannity et al would have an absolute field day. It's entirely possible that Obama may be looking at the French system but is not saying so. Some of you may want to check this out, I found it very surprising because nobody mentions France, it's always England or Canada that are held up as poster children for the wrong way to do it and with apologies to John, both of those countries ranked near the bottom, way behind most of Europe but France was, as my friend said, ranked at the top.
I also enjoyed your dissertation Richard, well done. I tend to land on that side too but still it's not right that some people have to be gutted financially by medical problems through no fault of their own. We can do better but to somehow overhaul an existing system to make the required changes is like Microsoft finally deciding to junk Windows and produce a truly good OS but everybody the world over would have to give up all of their legacy software and hardware to do it and start completely over. Tough choice.

Bob
Posted By: Shackman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 01:28 PM
Bob (and others),

Would be interested to hear a bit more about these redeeming features of the French system vs. the quoted extremes of "for profit" vs. "socialised medicine". Could you point us to some more information and comparitive features?

Cheers,

John
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 02:20 PM
Quote:

<...snip...>I don't want to get into an emotive argument here, this is not the place for it, but I just couldn't leave this comment alone - with the greatest of respect Notes, this is a cop out. Once fertilised, that egg is human. It ain't gonna hatch out as a frog, or a cat, or a lizard, or anything other than a human being<...>




OK, for the sake of discussion, I'll agree with you. To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure because the Science I believe in and the Religion I believe in don't always agree. It's confusing to this human's brain. As a male I feel I have less of a right to an opinion than the female who may be involved, unless it is my sperm that fertilized the egg, and fortunately I haven't been put to that test.

So if any fertilized egg is human, and if destroying any human life is murder I don't understand the nature of the protests that are exclusively directed towards abortion.

1) As mentioned earlier, what about the fact that the former President of the US bore false witness against our neighbor to kill over 100,000 innocent people. Grown up people, people who had husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, and unborn children in their wombs. Why isn't the government being picketed by the anti-abortionists?

2) Fertility clinics. Every day fertilized eggs in fertility clinics are discarded and destroyed. These are so called "extra" or "insurance" eggs. Logic tells me if a fertilized egg in a woman is human, and if an egg fertilized in a test tube can be implanted in a womb and grow it must be human, the fertilized egg in a test tube must also be human. And these fertilized eggs are disposed of regularly. So why aren't the fertility clinics being picketed for so-called murder by the anti-abortionists?

To make things more even confusing for my own mind, why is it OK to the anti-abortionists for the fertility clinics to discard that fertilized egg, but not extract stem cells from it before discarding it?

It's all so confusing. Not the moral sense but the inconsistency.

I am responsible for my own actions. I have practiced birth control all my life, even when the Catholic Church deemed that wearing a condom was as murderous as an abortion because I thought that God would decide if the sin of preventing an unwanted child from being born is greater than an unwanted child possibly living a desperate life. As far as I know, no child of mine has ever been aborted (since I am not female, I can never know for sure, but given the precautions I have taken, I am confident about this statement).

So I say that I agree with the statement that if taking all human life from a fertilized egg on up is indeed murder, then Bush and Cheney should be on trial, along with everybody who orders an egg destroyed in a fertility clinic.

If the government gets a hold of this concept, this is where it may eventually end up? Do you really want big brother legislating morals? Or should our religious leaders be in charge of our morals? Give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to God what is Gods.

So I'm confused. Perhaps someone can tell me why abortion is a sin, but the war in Iraq over imaginary WMDs is OK, and destroying "extra" fertilized eggs in a fertility clinic is also OK.

Notes
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 02:31 PM
I just did another Google search and I'm not finding the same websites I found a few years ago. One of them was really good too, very official and it offered a lot of detail.
Here's two I did find: The first is the WHO rankings WHO This is simply a ranking, no details. It's interesting to note that Canada, Australia and the US are basically grouped together in the 30's. I know the devil is in the details and who knows what went into these rankings. The second one seems to be a fairly authoritative article just last month from the Dallas Morning News NursingLink.com This is a long detailed article but check out this quote from page 3:

The French government negotiates price ceilings with pharmaceutical companies. French doctors earn about 60 percent of what their American counterparts make, although they get free medical school tuition and don’t face high malpractice insurance premiums.

This is exactly on point with my comments from a few days ago. Make less but free med school? Total schooling for a doctor costs something like a quarter million bucks here and malpractice insurance is around a hundred grand a year and both are huge contributors to the high costs. Doctors may "make" much more in the US but are paying out a lot more too. Yet a government mandate to control these things completely flies in the face of our free market thinking and our rights to take someone to court. How much is enough if a hospital cuts off the wrong leg for example? Certainly you would be entitled to something, in Canada I think it's about 300K or so but here it's millions. There has to be a balance somewhere but how to achieve it is the big question.

Bob
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 03:08 PM
Notes--

A good start would be to realize that when using the words science and religion in a sentence like that one, well, they should not start with capital letters...


--Mac
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 04:32 PM
I'm guessing that Canadian Doctors dont pay similar premiums because awards on law suits are capped reasonably ( applaudes) and Canada isn't an overly litigious society like we are ( boo). In fact, I'm ready for some good lawyer jokes. Anyone?
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 04:44 PM
Quote:

Notes--

A good start would be to realize that when using the words science and religion in a sentence like that one, well, they should not start with capital letters...


--Mac



Thanks Mac. We need grammar police

All this is confusing with a moderate who thinks the conservatives have some good points, the liberals have some good points, and the extremists on both sides of the fence are simply too extreme for my way of thinking.

All thinks in moderation, including political ideology.

Notes
Posted By: Mac Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 05:34 PM
Quote:


Thanks Mac. We need grammar police

All this is confusing with a moderate who thinks the conservatives have some good points, the liberals have some good points, and the extremists on both sides of the fence are simply too extreme for my way of thinking.

All thinks in moderation, including political ideology.

Notes




Not grammar, exactly. But capitalizing those two terms yields the "digital" either/or result that I spoke of earlier in this thread.

I do agree about both sides having some good points. The converse is of course also true then. Both sides also have some bad points. No question.


--Mac
Posted By: Danny C. Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 10:55 PM
Quote:

Quote:

<...snip...>I don't want to get into an emotive argument here, this is not the place for it, but I just couldn't leave this comment alone - with the greatest of respect Notes, this is a cop out. Once fertilised, that egg is human. It ain't gonna hatch out as a frog, or a cat, or a lizard, or anything other than a human being<...>




OK, for the sake of discussion, I'll agree with you. To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure because the Science I believe in and the Religion I believe in don't always agree. It's confusing to this human's brain. As a male I feel I have less of a right to an opinion than the female who may be involved, unless it is my sperm that fertilized the egg, and fortunately I haven't been put to that test.

So if any fertilized egg is human, and if destroying any human life is murder I don't understand the nature of the protests that are exclusively directed towards abortion.

1) As mentioned earlier, what about the fact that the former President of the US bore false witness against our neighbor to kill over 100,000 innocent people. Grown up people, people who had husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, and unborn children in their wombs. Why isn't the government being picketed by the anti-abortionists?

2) Fertility clinics. Every day fertilized eggs in fertility clinics are discarded and destroyed. These are so called "extra" or "insurance" eggs. Logic tells me if a fertilized egg in a woman is human, and if an egg fertilized in a test tube can be implanted in a womb and grow it must be human, the fertilized egg in a test tube must also be human. And these fertilized eggs are disposed of regularly. So why aren't the fertility clinics being picketed for so-called murder by the anti-abortionists?

To make things more even confusing for my own mind, why is it OK to the anti-abortionists for the fertility clinics to discard that fertilized egg, but not extract stem cells from it before discarding it?

It's all so confusing. Not the moral sense but the inconsistency.

I am responsible for my own actions. I have practiced birth control all my life, even when the Catholic Church deemed that wearing a condom was as murderous as an abortion because I thought that God would decide if the sin of preventing an unwanted child from being born is greater than an unwanted child possibly living a desperate life. As far as I know, no child of mine has ever been aborted (since I am not female, I can never know for sure, but given the precautions I have taken, I am confident about this statement).

So I say that I agree with the statement that if taking all human life from a fertilized egg on up is indeed murder, then Bush and Cheney should be on trial, along with everybody who orders an egg destroyed in a fertility clinic.

If the government gets a hold of this concept, this is where it may eventually end up? Do you really want big brother legislating morals? Or should our religious leaders be in charge of our morals? Give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to God what is Gods.

So I'm confused. Perhaps someone can tell me why abortion is a sin, but the war in Iraq over imaginary WMDs is OK, and destroying "extra" fertilized eggs in a fertility clinic is also OK.

Notes




Al Gore & WMD
John Kerry & WMD
Nancy Polosi & WMD
Who's Who of The Democrat Party & WMD
Archie Bunker Just For Fun

Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney. Man you must really hate these guys.

My best to you,
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/10/09 11:48 PM
Quote:

<...snip...>Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney - Bush and Cheney. Man you must really hate these guys.

My best to you,




As a matter of fact, I think they were the worst US leaders of my lifetime, perhaps of US history. Do I hate them? No. Do I think they are criminals? Yes.

Hate is non-productive, and it interferes with logical thinking so I try to avoid that emotion (not always successfully, but I'm only human).

Now if my daughter gets assigned to Iraq and doesn't come home in one piece, then I will hate them.

Personally, I believe they lied about the WMDs to convince us to invade Iraq for the profitable benefits to the oil companies, defense contractors, their own personal fortunes, and the Federal Reserve Bank, at the expense of the taxpayers.

After all, WMDs are only good as a deterrent. If Saddam had WMDs and we came rattling our sabers at his door, he would have said, "Hit me and I'll nuke you" as North Korea is doing. At the point where we were threatening invasion, he would have had nothing to lose by using them as a deterrent. So any fool at that point should have known there were no WMDs. And since Bush and Cheney were at the helm, and pushing very hard to convince congress to authorize the invasion, they bear the responsibility.

The resulting deaths of over 100,000 people, including over 4,000 of America's Finest servicemen and servicewoman is in my opinion, a travesty. Add to that the number of war injured who will never be able to live a normal life and it gets worse. Anyone who can murder that many people deserve a fair trial and just punishment if found guilty, even if they are our elected officials. As of today, about 100,000 documented civilian deaths have resulted by our unprovoked invasion of the sovereign country of Iraq. That makes us the terrorists and Bush and Cheney the leaders of the biggest terrorist organization of the 21st century.

I would feel the same way if they were Democrat, Libertarian, Independent, or members of the Whig party.

I still hear people (mostly Republicans) constantly complain about Clinton and Gore, too. I wasn't too wild about that team, I didn't vote for them, but at least we had a balanced budget.

I have no allegiance to either political party, I'm registered as an independent.

I am a patriot, and when I see my country's leaders doing the wrong thing, I feel it is my patriotic duty to point that out and voice my opinion.

I know the entire thing is very complicated, and we are not all privy to all the information, and I do respect the fact that we are all caring about the subject, even if we have formed different opinions about the problems that face us and their solutions.

That is why respectable dialog that doesn't resort to personal attacks is a good thing.

Perhaps someone can clear up my confusion as to why abortion is more heinous than an unprovoked war killing 100,000 Iraqi civilian adults, killing over 4,000 US servicemen and women, and causing over 45,000 US people to be brought home for injuries so great that the could no longer serve (According to DOD, a total of 45,583 individuals were medically evacuated from OIF [Operation Iraq Freedom] from March 19, 2003, to February 28, 2009)

... and also why it is more heinous than a fertility clinic discarding "extra" embryos, it just doesn't make sense to me.

And if these two examples are more heinous than abortions, why aren't they being picketed?

"Confusedly", Notes
Posted By: Lawrie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/11/09 12:31 AM
G'day Notes,
I know this is getting really off topic guys, I apologise.

Quote:

<snip> To tell you the truth, I'm not really sure because the Science I believe in and the Religion I believe in don't always agree. It's confusing to this human's brain.<snip>




I'm happy to address this, but as stated, I do not want to get into a specific abortion debate - they always seem to degenerate into emotional bun fights and never actually address real issues.

IMHO the reason that science and religion don't seem to agree on points is basically down to interpretation. On the one hand we have bad science and on the other we have bad religion. A classic case in point is our friend Copernicus. He correctly identified good old Sol as the centre of our solar system, but the religious authorities of the day decided that didn't fit with their narrow understanding of what the Bible teaches - they erroneously decided that God must have made the Earth the centre of the universe - there is nothing in my reading of the Word that comes even close to supporting this.

On the other hand we have another highly emotive issue - evolution... I have followed the evolution debate over several decades and it is my opinion that it is at least as much a religion as my Christian beliefs - perhaps more so. It certainly requires a significant amount of faith to continue believing in atoms to man evolution when all the real evidence not only does not support it, but actually disproves it. Add to that the things we are told in support of evolutionary theory are so continuously obfuscated and misrepresented. I would take evolutionists far more seriously if they would simply be honest, with themselves as much as with the rest of us.

Another interesting example of interpretation being an important factor: Some time ago I saw part of a documentary where some interesting data relating to brain construction had emerged from autopsy results. It appeared that the brains of known homosexual men were more feminine in construction than they were masculine. The immediate deduction was that this was evidence that homosexuality was the result of a female brain in a male body. I have a problem with this... The part of me that likes to understand the "nuts and bolts" of things immediately asked the question; "What is cause and what is effect?" Were they homosexual because they had feminine brains or did their brains become feminised because of their homosexual lifestyle? This question was NOT asked by the researchers, yet it is known that lifestyle can have physical effects on the brain. Thus IMHO the research was incomplete. They assumed the brain data was evidence of "cause" and didn't even consider that it might be "effect". What I consider an obvious question was not even asked much less taken into consideration. IMHO this is bad science.

WRT the morality of killing... Something that seems to be commonly misquoted is the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". Actually, the commandment is "Thou shalt not MURDER". Now I know the difference is largely semantics, and the principle of not killing is a good one. In fact, it is one that I choose to live by. But I'll tell you this, threaten my family and I'll kill you as soon as look at you. And I won't turn a hair, as far as I'm concerned that is not murder, it's pest control... so long as the threat is real. IMHO there is no difference between abortion and killing adults or discarding fertilised ova. I do NOT support embryonic stem cell research - especially since there seems to be significant evidence that adult stem cell research is considerably more productive. But even if it weren't, it is immoral to create a human life in order to kill it and harvest cells just so someone else might benefit. I can choose to give my life, an embryo cannot.

When the WMD arguments were being first floated I confess to being gullible enough to accept them. That said, I also believe that something needed to be done about Saddam Hussein. It is unacceptable that dishonesty was used to make it happen. It is a reality that there are evil people amongst us. We have a responsibility to protects ourselves from them. But who are they??? E.G. Saddam Hussein's rise to power was facilitated by the US government some 30 years ago when they were fighting Iran - bad choice i reckon. Who were the evil people? Saddam Hussein & co. or the US government representatives who made the decision to support him - or both? Or neither? I suggest there is no doubt that Saddam was, from our perspective, an evil man - a proven murderer. But the West is not wholly innocent either.

There are no cut and dried answers. For myself, I try to live my life according to the precepts I've learned from the Bible. I believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour and do my best to live according to His commandments. He was a man of peace, I endeavour to be. He was a healer, I try to do what I can to help people heal. He truly loved, I do the best I can and try as hard as I can to not let hate and intolerance govern me. He is my example, but I am not perfect. When I fail He has purchased forgiveness for me provided I truly repent.

Sin is a concept that has many interpretations. Let me give the one I understand from the Bible: "Sin is disobedience to God". Nothing more, nothing less. It is not necessarily killing or stealing or beating people up or rape or any number of abhorrent things. These things are covered, and in Jesus new commandment "Love one another as I have loved you" we have a practical example of how to make it work. He loved us enough to put our lives before His own. It is a sad thing that the world cannot, and will not, live this way.
Posted By: Curmudgeon Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/11/09 01:18 AM
Excellent points, Lawrie.

Don S.
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/11/09 02:14 AM
IMO, evolution has so many holes ( many missing links) that it's nothing more than pop-fiction anymore. And you used the word "evidence" perfectly. Flip side of the coin is there also is 0 evidence to support the "Adam and Eve" arguement. ( fairytail IMO ) Absolutely 0 evidence there too. 0 science. To me ,the most logical reason how we all got here is we were built ( i.e. created by other people that have been around for perhaps millions or billions of years. Quick story... ( yall probably think I'm nuts but this stuff facinates me) My father was a big shot in the Army in the early 50's. He worked for the DOD ( Department of Defense) His top secret clearance was 38 levels above Q ( highest clearance there is) He had a stroke a couple of years ago and told my brother and I things that were too incredible to beleive. Has to do with UFO's and what he refers to as " the other people" ( not aliens) He disclosed this info cause he wanted us to know before he dies ( he's 81 now) All I'll say is when you get the chance, go to YouTube and type in the search field " The disclosure Project" . And from there you'll find links that are simply amazing. My Dad says we are not nor have ever ben alone. Very cool stuff.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/11/09 12:41 PM
If Obama succeeds, he will get an A.
If Obama fails, Bush will get an F.
Posted By: Ryszard Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/11/09 01:38 PM
ROFL!!!










(Except that it's too true to be funny.)

R.
Oh no - we're not going to open the ol' evolution can o' worms, are we? If we do that, the servers hosting the forum will likely burst into flames
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/11/09 07:07 PM
You mean those new AI servers that are constantaly evolving?

Bob
Quote:

You mean those new AI servers that are constantaly evolving?

Bob




Haha, no, those are a myth The ones we have came out of the box exactly the way they are now
ZING!
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/15/09 07:33 PM
Well, back to the health care situation, Obama just gave a speech to the American Medical Association. Here's a quote from the LA Times:

"...Obama was warmly received by the AMA convention, which gave him numerous standing ovations and booed him just once, when he said he does not support caps on malpractice awards."

This is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that nobody talks about in this debate. When doctors and hospitals are liable for megamillion dollar jury awards and have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars per year in malpractice insurance premiums because of it, and the trial lawyers have the Democrats and Obama himself in a death grip, how can costs come down?

Bob
Posted By: WienSam Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/15/09 08:50 PM
This is a very long thread based almost entirely on statistics

As any fool knows (and Churchill once said), 'There are lies, damned lies and then there are... STATISTICS!'

Just my two pence worth
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/15/09 09:38 PM
Nice to know that the House and Senate ( and prez and vice) are all lawyers, isn't it?( save maybe a few congressmen)....I'd love to see a bill passed that stipulates only non-lawyers may run for poitical office of any kind. Now all we have to do is get about a thousand normal folk armed to the hilt and march into the halls of congress and force them to sign and we're in buisness. Iterestingly, the best president in my lifetime( born in 1960) was an actor, of all things. ( Regan) I'd be willing to wager a pound of michigan cherries that since 1960 all the presidents have been lawyers. We need a body polotic that isn't sympathetic to lawyers. My 2 cents.....
Posted By: jazzmammal Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/16/09 07:55 AM
Quote:

This is a very long thread based almost entirely on statistics

As any fool knows (and Churchill once said), 'There are lies, damned lies and then there are... STATISTICS!'

Just my two pence worth




C'mon Sam. How do you keep track of anything? The numbers in your bank account are statistics, your blood pressure readings for the last 5 years are statistics. You would rather have our leaders just make stuff up? Hmmm, bad example they're doing that already...
The problem is people ignoring the statistics or quoting only the part of the statistic that supports their argument. The best lie is the one based on just a little bit of truth to add authenticity.

Bob
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/16/09 01:29 PM
There were several doctors on a talk show yesterday. They said only about 30% of doctors belong to the AMA. It's more of a political group than a fellowship of doctors. The docs said, "when Americans hear that the AMA might be for it, they will assume it means all doctors".

We need term limits & no more lawyers.
Posted By: toucher Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/16/09 02:46 PM
I couldn't even begin to respond to all that has been said just in the last two pages. My personal opinion, is that Everyone (and I capitalize solely for impact), and Every institution, be it Science in general or any particular branch thereof, Religion in general or any particular denomination or non-denomination thereof, has it's own axe to grind, and it's own motive for every action it takes. This includes of course Governments (regarless of nationality).

Science is intent on proving themselves right on every issue, and yet we find them changing their facts every few years.

Religions present themselves as our moral compass, and yet many of those in positions of supposed reverance are often caught in fraud, child abuse, skimming from the local church, adultry etc.

Everyone that belongs to any group, even PG forums, do so because they find some common ground with others there and have a desire to participate or learn or teach or just socialize. Obama sat in a "Christian" church for over 20 years under a pastor who by his own words hates this country. They socialized together, had dinner at each others house, etc. Is it any wonder that Obama is leading us down a path of financial and political destruction?

Every evolutionist has a reason for their argument, even if it cannot be documented, every religious zealot has a reason for their fanticism regardless of how psychologically disturbing it may be. Every politician has an agenda, as does every political party.

As individuals, we can only do what we feel is the right thing to do, and even then we tend to screw up a lot.

I do know that when the government has control of our basic rights, we are at the mercy of whatever agenda they have in mind. If I wanted to control the populace, I would do the following:

1. Make sure all their medical and prescription needs had to be routed thru the government.

2. Try to get as many poor people on some sort of government assistance, so they have to depend on the government for their income.

3. Take away all the guns from the people so they cannot riot against the new regime, when they decide that their health care is insufficient, and their income is not enough to live on.

4. Then I would try to nationalize every major industry so that the government makes all operational decisions as to what they make, how they make it, and who can buy it.

5. Then I would set up a state controlled religion, and remove any reference to God from our money, from our schools, from our public buildings, etc.

6. Then of course I'd have to change the Pledge of Allegiance.

Btw, has anyone ever seen Obama salute the Flag? I haven't I did see a video of him not saluting the flag while the national anthem was being played.

Capitalism isn't a perfect system by any means, but it fits in well with all the rights we seem to want as human beings, and americans.



Next time vote for Huckabee and "Do The Right Thing"
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/16/09 07:12 PM
If there is a goofier human being on the planet ( and shameless self-promoter) than Huckabee, I havn't seen him. When he doesn't have a political axe to grind, which isn't often, I find the guy to be quite the pragmatist. ...
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/16/09 07:23 PM
Real quick, toucher: IMO, Obama is by far the most intelligent and articulate President in my lifetime. Will that make for a great president? Who knows. Lets all hope so. The poor guy inherited a cluster you -know-what from the last administration that will be almost impossible to fix. I also think that Bush was a very decent guy who didn't ask to be "the war" president.

My sincere wish is that the exteamists from both parties would for once and for all stop all the " you guys suck" back and fourth that's been going on for as long as I can remember and simply do what's best for all of us; not a select few. Drop the tired "mantra's" and try something fresh. Like being honest. Every time I turn on Fox News, those guys are constantly lambasting Obama....the guys been in office for what?......150 days? lol...it's like come on man. As a proud "Independant" I hope that everyone tries to find solutions instead of blaming the other guy. That would be a welcom change. PS..I've seen Obama solute the flag a number of times. Dont beleive the BS you get form our freinds at " Fox"...;)
Posted By: toucher Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/16/09 10:53 PM
I can agree with you on most accounts Swan, being a pragmatic person myself, I never vote party as I believe one to be about as evil as the other. They both have agenda's they are just different agenda's, neither of which as far as I can tell are good for the general welfare of the country. As far as I'm concerned, 90% of the politicians should probably be in jail. If anyone ran a business the way our country has been managed for the last 100 years or so They would all have failed, which is what I'm am afraid is about to happen to our way of life as we know it.

Just my opinion.

I am an idependent myself although I do register with a party to have access to the primary voting privelege.
Posted By: Mick Emery Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/17/09 02:04 AM
Quote:

Every politician has an agenda, as does every political party.



Therein lies the problem.
The agenda of our elected officials is supposed to be to serve the will of the people.
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/17/09 03:09 AM
Well said, guys.
Posted By: Glenn Kolot Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/17/09 04:54 AM
Quote:

Science is intent on proving themselves right on every issue, and yet we find them changing their facts every few years.





In defense of science, it must change, simply because new discoveries will very often invalidate previous knowledge.

That's what science is all about - making new discoveries and revising current knowledge to suit these discoveries.

I don't think science is intent on proving itself always right; in fact good scientists realize this and will say so. However, science is quoted by many people as the absolute non-changing truth. I doubt seriously that scientists claim that current scientific knowledge is the "end-all and be-all".

When I was in high school, today's everyday electronics weren't even in some weird scientist's wildest dreams. What was "true" then, is not "true" now.

Glenn
Posted By: WienSam Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/17/09 05:31 AM
Quote:

Quote:

This is a very long thread based almost entirely on statistics

As any fool knows (and Churchill once said), 'There are lies, damned lies and then there are... STATISTICS!'

Just my two pence worth




C'mon Sam. How do you keep track of anything? The numbers in your bank account are statistics, your blood pressure readings for the last 5 years are statistics. You would rather have our leaders just make stuff up? Hmmm, bad example they're doing that already...
The problem is people ignoring the statistics or quoting only the part of the statistic that supports their argument. The best lie is the one based on just a little bit of truth to add authenticity.

Bob




My ex-g/f (Monika) worked as a statistician and academic researcher for a QUANGO. She was educated and intelligent and qualified as a medical doctor. However, she was constantly being told off for not producing the statistics the QUANGO wanted. She eventually resigned her job on ethical grounds.

Thought for the day...
Posted By: Lawrie Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/17/09 06:19 AM
G'day Glenn,
well put mate. All areas of human endeavour has it's:
a) Zealots
b) True believers
c) Followers
d) Hangers' on
e) Uninterested
f) Detractors
g) Violently opposed
and all kinds of levels in between. Sadly, the loudest ones are usually also the least knowledgeable and/or the ones so one eyed they can't be honest about the errors or truths depending whether they are a supporter or detractor.

It's a sad reality that too much emotional involvement will always get in the way of objective truth.

G'day Sam,
I understand Monika'a dilemma - I too have been involved in statistical analysis as part of my profession. And hated it every time my results were deliberately misrepresented in order for some "executive" to make a point. Now I'm in my own business at least I can direct the quality of the information gathered. My staff know I won't tolerate adulterated data. (or office politics! That's a very quick way to get sacked in my company!)

The real problem we in the general populace have is that we have no idea how the statistics we are presented with have been manipulated. Anyone with an agenda to push will be tempted to lie. Sadly, some succumb, and statistical presentations are an easy way to do this.
Posted By: swanman Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/17/09 12:21 PM
One persons " objective truth" is another persons " objective ambiguity". Ditto for "objective statisics".
Posted By: mglinert Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/18/09 02:33 PM
I must confess I have not read all the posts on this impressively vast thread but somewhat dissipated thread.
It sometimes gets slow in the office but not that slow.

So, as a first time contributor to this discussion, I will turn my attention to the original post by Notes.

I sincerely hope that this is meant to be amusing because as a serious economic programme we are in “moon is made of cheese” territory.

In fact it’s making my head spin to identify and arrange all the entirely false premises on which it is based.

After much reflection and several rewrites, here is my top five:

1) Employment is not a cake which can be divided or rearranged on a plate. By withdrawing a certain number of people from the labour force you most certainly do not create an equal number of jobs for other people to fill, however intuitive this may appear.

It was this kind of thinking that led the poor misguided French government to introduce its famous 35-hour working week, and we’ve all seen how many jobs that created. (preceisly none)

The only way to increase employment is to:
- stimulate demand or, more probably, do no nothing to constrain the market forces which would, left to their own devices, stimulate demand
- ensure that the labour market is free and fluid

2) The withdrawal of all that knowledge and experience from the labour force would have disastrous consequences. In many professions it is workers in this age group who contribute the greatest value as they are both training the next generation and putting all the experience they have built up to use.

3) It is philosophically flawed in the context of a liberal economy to tell consumers what they have to buy. This would change fundamentally the values (free choice, limited role of government…) on which the system is supposed to be based.

4) Having introduced such a plan, the USA would quickly suffer the effects from other troubled economies introducing similar nonsensical protectionist measures in imitation. The effects would soon be catastrophic, not only on the USA economy but the world economy.

5) Such a programme could never be enforced. What sanctions would apply to noncomplying over 50s? What constitutes an American car (is it made by a US registered company? do all the parts and materials have to come from the USA? who is going to check and how much would that cost? etc…)

But, of course, you were only joking, Bob!!
Posted By: Notes Norton Re: Patriotic retirement bail-out plan - 06/19/09 12:07 PM
Quote:

I must confess I have not read all the posts on this impressively vast thread but somewhat dissipated thread.
It sometimes gets slow in the office but not that slow.

So, as a first time contributor to this discussion, I will turn my attention to the original post by Notes.

I sincerely hope that this is meant to be amusing because as a serious economic programme we are in “moon is made of cheese” territory.
<...snip...>
But, of course, you were only joking, Bob!!




Of course, the "patriotic bail-out plan" was only meant as a source of amusement. There are no simple answers to such a complex problem and I don't think anyone seriously thinks it could work. I'm very surprised at how long the post lasted, I figured we'd have a few chuckles and it would die. And I'm also surprised at some of the tangents it has taken. Some interesting points have been brought up and have provided me some food for thought.

But still, I'm over 55 so if the gov't wants to award me a million bucks, I'll buy a new GM car, and start playing my gigs for charity.

Notes
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