Ok there isn't a weak that goes by that I don't hear many demos of singers, or instrumentalists.

The problem I'm seeing is with recording gear becoming so affordable and powerful that you can do so many things in a small studio or even a spare bedroom or basement. Some of it takes your breathe away. Some of it kicks in your gag reflex!

Please understand, I am ALL FOR the hobbyist and person who plays just for fun/pure enjoyment. I'm that is SO many things.

The issue I'm having (and I'm sure it's not just me by any means) is the number of people who truly believe they are pro...and are nowhere close. I mean REALLY far away from pro...but argue or insult you when "they want the truth." I'm tactful, I promise I am. I swear there are many delusional people out there!

I feel much of it is the results of well meaning people they surround themselves with, who either don't know different, or are "being nice."

I mean, some of the singers have sent me things they put on youtube and I am shocked at how bad they are...AND equally shocked by the comments. "wow! you have a great voice!" or "you seriously need to be on the radio!" or "Better than the original!" Really?

It's not a problem overall, but I know of someone moving to Nashville because of this. He will get eaten alive and spend a lot of money doing it. It's not my problem, I get that. I just feel bad.

Not trying to come across as a "know it all." I'm so far from knowing it all it's hilarious. But I also don't think I do.

How do you all handle it? I'm just curious. Again, you don't have to be pro to enjoy making music...and I don't mean it that way in the least.

<<< How do you all handle it? I'm just curious. >>>

Think of someone you respect, admire and maybe at some time provided you with constructive criticism that though you were being criticized of something you were emotionally attached to, the criticism did not deflate your enthusiasm or discourage you from continuing on.

Every time in the future when you are facing a circumstance with someone where you are offering constructive criticism, ask yourself what would that person who once (or many times) provided criticism to you without deflating your enthusiasm or discouraging you, and emulate them in your reply.

My late brother was the best I've ever seen in replying to "what do you think about this?" type of musical questions. I always try to paraphrase how I think he would answer.

Charlie

If the person asks "what do you think of this", "constructive criticism welcomed" or something like that then you should give them a honest answer in a nice way IMHO. Don't say you suck as a singer but say I thought you were a little flat in the chorus so maybe you should get some pitch correction software and check it out. If they get pissed then just ignore them.

Some people only want praise and get mad if they are told they are not good enough to make it, yet. While some actually want to learn. But you can't tell the difference on the Internet.

If you put songs up on the Internet, even in our showcase, you better have thick skin. Some people don't and will defend their performance whether it is good or bad! Be prepared for that when criticizing their songs.

I am a hobbyist and I am still learning. You all should know by now that my songs are always open for constructive criticism.

As one who is not a strong singer but did my own singing anyway (or it really wouldn't have been MY album) I expected a LOT of bullet holes as people listened, but those who commented were kind and for the most part positive. I have been on the other end of that where people say "and be honest with me" and some times it was so bad I ran out of noncommittal ways to say "suck", but I would just say "Keep working at it. You can never stop improving." And here is where those words came from.

There was a guy here, Phil Palumbo, that passed away what seems like forever ago. He was a great sax player and an even better showman. I happened to be out where he was playing and some kid sax player asked to sit in. They did some old tune (Perdido, maybe). And honestly this kid stunk the place out, but Phil, with all his grace and tact, let him know gently that he needed to keep at it. He said something close to "You have some good roots there. Now just keep working at it." Phil lived in a very positive place where he always thought that there was no value in spreading negative energy. I never once heard him be anything but positive and encouraging to young players. One by one his old players are joining him in jazz heaven, one of whom was one my favorite profs in college who passed in 2016.

Any creative field requires that the artist be willing to accept criticism.

Junior Samples ( Hee Haw ) summed it up perfectly when he told Lulu Roman: "For a fat lady, you don't smell so bad!"

That has become my mantra. If I can't be up-building and encouraging, then I keep my comments to myself.

Donny

The issue I'm having (and I'm sure it's not just me by any means) is the number of people who truly believe they are pro...and are nowhere close. I mean REALLY far away from pro...but argue or insult you when "they want the truth." I'm tactful, I promise I am. I swear there are many delusional people out there!

-----------

My experience is not what you describe above. Most people are reasonable, and don't "argue or insult you when they want the truth"

So true, Peter.

The other end of the spectrum are those who offer advice to artists who are light years ahead of them in talent, experience and musicology.

Donny

I totally agree with all of your above observations.
Just because we've written something with sincerity and it took a long time to finish doesn't mean it has any appeal (for whatever reason) to the masses.

Since I've been here, I may have commented on a 1/2 dozen songs in the Showcase forum because I thought they were good vocals, well recorded and with interesting lyrics/subject.
If it doesn't stand out with those criteria (from my perspective) I just don't say anything. (of course, genre preference would play a role too)
I have no desire to insult anyone with what one may call brutal honesty anyway.
Plus, I'm a nobody in the music world.

It means little to me what my family members think of my work....family members will always tell you 'it's a great song'.
It's opinions from peers, those better than myself and those that are outside of my personal social orbit that have much more critically objective merit.

I said it before....if anyone puts there material on the internet for public commentary/critiquing one must have the skin of a snow tire.
All comments should be accepted if one asked for them.

Me...I have (4) BIAB songs but have not solicited any comments of them on this forum that I recall.
If I did want opinions from this respectful group it would be specific questions only...'what do you think of my mix on this one, is the sax stepping on the vocals, is the bass too loud'.
I would never ask 'what do you think of this song?'
Why?...because I would not ever expect anyone to actually like the song generally speaking.
But, the academic/mixing help here would be invaluable to fine tune a song.

That's my take on it....I did try to be brief.

Carry on...

(Oh...I am finishing my 5th BIAB'er now...maybe I'll get brave and solicit for something :))

Maybe I, unintentionally, gave the impression that I feel that's the majority of people. I don't think that.

I probably get pitched 15-30 demos a week from people. Of that, I would say maybe 20% are pro, or close. That means 80% of them are not.

Of the non-pros, most are very gracious. Some are looking for suggestions, some are not. They are simply pitching and thankful for a listen.

Then there is the not so silent minority of (guessing) 3-5 people who feel the need to flat our tell me "I'm wrong, or don't know what I'm talking about...I'm going to make it big, Walt Disney...blah, blah, blah. You don't know what you just passed up!" kind of responses.

Here is the thing. If I'm not interested I simply write back. "You've obviously put work into this and I thank you for considering me. It's flattering to be honest! Be determined and be willing to improve where you can...that combination is hard to beat. If there is anything I can do to help, feel free to ask. Best of luck to you. We are all in this together! "

I'm thinking of leaving the "If there is anything..." that seems to spark the questions of what they could do differently.

The reason I'm bringing any of this up is, it seems (for me) to have worsened with the increase of internet and social media usage.

Perhaps it's just more people can do things easier, so they do. But opinions via email, or anything electronic don't seem to be in short supply

I hope that states me position a bit more. Combine that over 20 plus years of doing this, and maybe I'm way off base.

On the flip side of that coin, it's also opened up the doors to some incredible talent for me. So don't think I'm all "it's the worst thing ever!" Not by a LONG shot.

"Ya take the good, you take the bad..."

"I probably get pitched 15-30 demos a week from people."



So, you're an A&R guy?

No. It's not demos of songs for me to consider. It's demos of them singing or playing an instrument for me to consider using their talent for jingles.

Prior to the internet really catching on (I'm dating myself here) I got maybe 1 or 2 total a week. I know there were even weeks I didn't get any at all.

I think the best anyone can do is to say whether or not they like something.

Once you start to say something is good or bad, you're setting yourself up as an arbiter of style and that way lies danger.

Think how many famous acts were initially turned down by someone who thought they were bad.

ROG.

That's a great point ROG. And I would add that it is possible to "damn with faint praise" also. Typically one can find something about a production (if asked to look at the entire effort) to comment on while ignoring the rest Of course if you are specifically asked to, for example, comment on a vocal there is little wiggle ground left. But even a pitchy vocal can have creative phrasing, etc., if one can listen to off key singing -- I can't.

Bud

Six songs? Peter Gannon just noted today that there's been 5,000 plus songs posted. From our perspective since 2011 we have listened to many, many songs of multiple genres that meet that criteria. The users range from music newbies to folks who have been deep into the industry from the perspective of writing, performing and production. Having gotten to know some of the users I'm overwhelmed at the breadth of talent. Just an ole phart's two cents worth!

Bud

Joe Meek passed on the Beatles, telling Brian Epstein that they were "just another bunch of noise; copying other people's music". It was reported that he put his fingers in his ears and ran into a studio where Rod Stewart was singing and screamed until Stewart left. He ran David Bowie out of his studio as well. Proof that even the best and the brightest don't always recognize talent when it presents itself.

So - if its the best i can do as a rank AMATEUR i shoulnt post until its been polished,processed and mastered for fear of offense? Showcase is for those that CAN, not those that would like to aspire and look for guidance-is that it?
Ive been amazed at the top quality of some of the posts on here and havent dared reply for fear of embarassing myself by my lack of knowledge.
Maybe a Like button at the top of th song post so I can click it to show i heard it and liked it?
WendyM

I totally agree there's a boatload of talent here in various genres.
I've easily listened to a couple hundred songs from the Showcase but I don't always comment.

Keith....very good points!

WendyM....to me, the showcase is for everyone at any level.
It's about encouraging all to continue writing and reveal how great a program BIAB truly is.
Hmmm....that 'like button' might be a good idea for them to ponder.

Carry on...

I didn't intend to imply that I won't offer snippets of advice when asked but I won't say anything negative on a public forum. A private conversation is generally preferred and only when I determine that the artist is able to handle criticism.

I'm working with an Irish singer/songwriter currently and told her that she was too "breathy" and that nearly crushed her. How will she survive the criticism of a studio producer when big Loonies are being burned for studio time?

Donny

Agreed. But here's the thing. I feel that was more his personal opinion. Although he may not of liked their style, they did have good timing, pitch and...more subjective, tone.

It would be hard to convince me that someone who is tone def, and has really terrible timing is all that desirable to the masses...and that's who I have to market to.

I would post examples, but I really don't think that would be fair, nice, or professional.

Um..I'm not sure who is saying any of that? To be clear, I sure wasn't. My intent with this topic had NOTHING to do with the showcase what-so-ever.

Personally, I love the showcase, and love to watch people develop! To me, it's one of the coolest things to witness!

I find all comments above are worthy of consideration.


Bacharach & David wrote an excellent song about exactly that: "Do you know the way to San Jose?"

No. I apologize if that's what I said. I thought I had indicated that that was more recent. I used to MAYBE get 1-2 a week. And some weeks I wouldn't get any at all. That was because when I first started, my market for work AND for talent was right were I lived! LOL I don't live in a big city or anything either!

That has been since people got much more active on social media and networking. NOT 30 years by a LOOOOONG shot!



I explained the numbers above, and I hope that clarified it. So not anywhere near 25,000 demos! Not. At. All.

I have found A LOT of artists I love to work with. I would say I have a roster of a little over 500 to work with. Those, are singers, guitarists, bass, drums, studio engineers...you name it. Some are better than others. Many times budget dictates the caliber of talent I get to use.

Another HUGE factor for me is if they need to have to have a specific sound. As an example, years ago I had a jeweler who loved the song "The Search Is Over" by the band Survivor. He said he would do anything to get that sound. I was lucky enough to know a guy out of Memphis that worked with Jim Jamison. I had opened for Jim (not Survivor) which was just enough to get me in the door with him. He sang one of my jingles! It was a total high point for me. I had him sing a total of 3 for me over the years. I miss that he is gone.

So people come, and people go. Just because they have a sound, doesn't mean it works for everything. People who sound like Janice Joplin can't necessarily sound like Britney Spears. Also, male and female are two, obviously, different sounds.

Now ad in those who can record from a personal studio, and those that have to go to one. There are many variables that come into play...especially when you work on tight deadlines at times.

Many times because of tours, people are available at some points, and not at others.

I have my people that are my "go to" people. They are proven reliable, fast, and accurate...and available at the time I need them.

Now multiply that by the number of people needed for any given project.

I also have to go outside of that box to get something specific, and it's easier to know what available BEFORE you need it, then to be desperate. At least that's my take.

This also brings up something that I don't think people consider. I would guess about half of those that I get are from non-English speaking countries, or it's not their native language. This can present a problem in both pronunciation of sung words or sometimes even basic communication. This is not to say they aren't talented...they very much are. But singers especially, many times can't be used. The internet has opened up a whole new world!



Indeed. But I think that's apples to oranges. There's a good chance a guitarist or graphic artist may be able to do something that someone else can do...copy a "style." But again, with singing, it's has a uniqueness to it. As great as Berry White was he wouldn't "sound like" Steve Perry...or visa versa...or Cindy Laupar. Guitars a a bit more masking of the sexes...as is graphic arts.

As far as me being surprised that some are not that talented...that wasn't my point. My point was THEY don't seem to realize it.

Again, there is NOTHING wrong with not being able to sing. I CAN'T! But I'm not asking people to hire me to do it either. If I did, and they didn't...I would know why. I wouldn't have to ask. If I did need to know, I wouldn't say they don't know what they're talking about. I would listen. If I disagreed, so be it. I would see if there was any merit in it; but grow from it.

For what it's worth, that's why I love BIAB. It allows me to put together things fast, and well. That's hard to beat in my book!

To be clear on this, I don't know him well, but I've heard him perform often enough. He is ok, but I wouldn't say exceptional. Sort of a small fish in a small pond.

Who am I to say not to go for it? Nobody! I fear for the worst, but hope for the best for him.

As far as the song you referenced, I had never heard it. I read the lyrics first, and saw who it was performed by. THEN I heard it...not at all the feel I was expecting! LOL Thanks for the share of that. I love learning new things like that!

How do you learn?

Well if you are serious about learning, you have to be willing to ask for and receive criticism.

When I first started in digital recording wow, talk about bungled stuff...lets just leave it at that. I posted my amateurish tunes in the forum for songs and asked others to listen and discuss what was going on. I never took offense no matter how harsh the crits were. When I send songs to outside reviews, I ALWAYS ask for the strictest, most brutally honest reviews they offer. How else will I learn? And yeah, some of it stings.... but hey, it's all about getting better. Today, I find that the lessons learned and applied have given me the skills to jump into the arena with the big boys and girls... the pros, and to do it successfully.

So if I am asked to critique someone who is "less than stellar" I will offer honest advice. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't ask. I'm not going to tell them it sounds good if it doesn't sound good. There's no need to be a buzzkill but I'm not going to lie to them either. there are tactful ways to tell someone they need more work or that perhaps they are in the wrong line of work, and I have really tried to work on being a bit more diplomatic. Most often that comes down to.... did they ask for my opinion? If not.... I keep my diplomatic mouth closed.

If they did ask for thoughts, opinions, critiques..... OK.. they asked....What I will do first, is try to find something in the song, it might be the guitar playing or perhaps the tone of the guitar, or the singer's voice characteristics, something that they ARE doing right and start with that. I tell them what I like about that and then go from there.

If it's recording & production, same deal. I don't comment as often now on songs here, or in other forums where I used to be really active and reviewing every single song. Frankly, I don't have the time to listen to everything let alone write an honest critique of every song. I mostly comment on the songs that really stand out and capture my attention or that are really good and perhaps are lacking one thing to make them nearly perfect.

I've been taken to task here, publicly as well as through PM over some of my comments. I guess I was a bit too outspoken in those instances. I tend to call it like I see it and not everyone is looking for or wanting advice. They just want to be told "good job" and sometimes I will simply say that too.

hope that helps.....

If not.. I can tell you what I really think!!

Wendy, excellent idea about a checkbox. I'd like to encourage musicians without a long critique. Peter?

I don't think that constant praise is necessarily a good thing. It can be very destructive in large doses.

Donny

+1

I would actually "Like" this comment if there was way to

Herb,

There is a fine line between CONstuctive and DEstructive criticism . Few of us have that unique gift. I had a boss who could reprimand me without breaking my spirit. He was a grand total of one in my entire working life!

Donny

))) I would post examples, but I really don't think that would be fair, nice, or professional.


How about posting examples of jingles (favorites that you've made) from your 20 years in the biz? I love jingles, and listening to music is more fun than reading these kinds of arguments. You may get some publicity and business from it, if someone hears them and needs some jingle work.

I'm not too hot on the idea of a like button. I was a moderator on a forum where we tried that and the number of posts plummeted afterwards...you know just hit the like button and move on like facebook. Nobody should be shy about saying a few words about something that appeals to them on the forum. Jump in and enjoy! We appreciate positive comments and constructive criticism from all. Really.


Bud

I grew up and frequently jammed with Bob ( Zimmerman ) Dylan in HS circa '56-59 (I'm 2 months older) but I would probably never qualify him as a singer, if asked.

Also, the Everly Brothers were turned down by every studio in Nashville before 'making it'. They would play in the alley behind Ryman Auditorium hoping to be heard.

Donny

I meant posting examples of some of what I receive and feel...well...could use a lot more practice? Then I guess people could decide if I missed out on the Beatles.




I would love to do that; but I primarily write for agencies, stations, and sometimes direct to client. In all cases, the jingles are a complete buy out. So it becomes property of the person who pays me.

That being said, I am starting some new products this year that would allow me to post some of the work I do. Some of it using PG Music products.

I also want to make sure I don't devalue may service because of potential clients having the perception that "it's not that hard."

Thanks for the interest!

Sure, come in here with your real life experience, great wisdom and solid points.

I wouldn't have thought of that...the part about postings dropping. Great points!

J&B,

I didn't mean to exclude comments but allow listeners an option to "like" so as to be positive reinforcement. I would think that would actually boost participation. Many (including myself) hesitate due to fear of being thought stupid although I have rarely seen anyone flamed on these PG Forums.

Donny

Agreed. Though, I don't remember him singing jingles either.



There is a difference though. They weren't turned down for not being able to sing. They had a sound the record companies weren't looking for at the time. I think we can agree they had a sense of pitch and rhythm and some pretty amazing talent.

What I'm referring to are people that don't sing in key...I don't mean as in a creative choice either. They also may not have much of a sense of rhythm.

Caaron,

This response is just for the occasional person you mentioned who takes offense when you decline their services. When somebody listens to the same song you just listened to, but they hear "cha-ching" while you hear "ba-boom"...

It's hard to hear an opinion we don't like, and easy to disagree with something we can dismiss as easily as personal opinion.

But if you can run whatever these people submit through software like Melodyne that can show a graphical representation of how well each note sits where its supposed to... in terms of both pitch and timing... you might not have to offer your opinion at all. Let the picture do the talking.

Peter, IIRC, wasn't Mac the Jingle Master? He used BIAB exclusively.

Donny

Post whenever you think you have a good representation of your song. And ALWAYS remember this. Everybody here, at even step on the musical evolution ladder, wrote their first song at some point in their life/career. For the most part, the songwriters here are not generally full time professional musicians. The guy who gigs her the most plays covers and in his own words never got the hang of writing. Some (like me) have put out a CD just because we can, and largely for our amusement and sense of accomplishment.

Also remember that your songs are your songs. They mean something to you. Nobody can ever tell you that your ideas are wrong. You won't get a lot of deeply negative vibes here. You'll get more gentle suggestions, all friendly attempts to help you learn the game a little better. Try the suggestions if you choose to, and if they don't suit your vision, delete that change and you will be back where you started. Keep in mind that nobody here will ever try to discourage you.

Just remember that Kevin will ALWAYS say you have too much reverb. (Sorry man. Couldn't resist! )

Eddie,

More cowbell and a bagpipe solo, please?

Donny

My thoughts.....

put better than I could say it...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I71cY9Ysy5U


(wink x2)

On this forum, I have been around a LONG time - mid to late 90's when I started learning here. I've run into exactly one person (hasn't posted in this thread yet!) who thinks their musical poop doesn't stink and about 1 month a year, they'll show up here asking how to get more radio play with their stuff; how to market; ask opinions about the latest feed-on-the-ignorant music publishing scams, etc.

Their stuff is schlocky / stinky bad; lyrics full of cliché; songs that go nowhere, etc. They have changed user names a couple of times after a few persons have tried to kindly suggest actual improvements in mostly kind ways, but it is clear over the years, that this person doesn't believe that their material has anything wrong with it - they believe that all that is missing are different marketing perspectives and methods.

Have I said any of the above to that person? No. I do not believe it will do any good to or for them. I actually believe this person might have some personality defects of some type just based on the delusional behavior they have exhibited with their posts. Fixing delusion is above my pay grade!

With rather rare exceptions, most of us here are just making music because it's plain good fun. We've had a couple guys that make their living in the recording/producing industry, and many that do the 1 or 2 person band gig full time; coming this way by way of the singular product BIAB. The folks relying on this for their income, they are the professionals.

I consider my music hobby to be like an amateur photographer that has studied the craft, but I'm not fooling myself that I will ever be able to replace my income with music hobby income. What I do is akin to giving a framed photo I've taken to family and friends and sometimes they will hang the picture in a prominent place, many times it ends up in the storage room. Totally o.k. with that.

Does this give me any kind of right for 'brutal honesty'? Nope. Even when it's tempting, still doesn't give me a right to that.

In a week, I will be participating in February Album Writing Month, where thousands of people across the globe will be trying to write 14 songs each over a 4 week period. There will be a whole bunch of bad songs I will write, and the others will write, but there will also be a couple that will get some nice comments (if past years are any indication) and I will find many that made me smile in some way, and I always take the time to let somebody know if that was the case and give a very specific hint at what it was that made me smile.

Some of those folks have become my favorite artists over the years. There's a guy who plays the hang drum (think of an inverted steel drum with more pure tone, played with the hands) who just simply makes goosebump inducing songs each and every year.

If a song makes you smile or get 'that feeling' that only music can provide. Let the artist know with a kind comment or some cash sent their way.

Oh, and if anyone's interest was piqued: www.fawm.org is the February Album Writing Month challenge. Site goes live in a day or so for 2017. There will be lots of opportunity to practice kind commenting.

All my life I have had a problem of being honest, so if someone asks me what I think I tell them, good or bad. And of course ALWAYS in a nice, cool, way.

But when it is on the net, to be blunt I don't give a crap. If I dislike a song, voice, performance, structure, or a hundred other things that comprise a tune, I keep my mouth shut & move on. If I am asked I PM that person or band most times.

A lot of folks thrive on going out and just tearing down people that are not very good, when a few just really NEED an encouraging word.....and as musicians you folks on here KNOW what I am talking about, and know it when you hear it.

Yes, some people DO suck! Yes, some folks just want that pat on the back, and will take nothing less! But instead of wasting time on that type of garbage I save my comments / responses for folks that are really looking for the helping hand of solid criticism.....if that makes any sense to you folks.....

And solid points Mr. Gannon!

The OP said this thread is not about the Showcase, but all the replies have referred to it, so it's relevant. Now here comes WendyM, a new member, who is intimidated to post her songs. To me, this defeats the purpose of the Showcase.

It makes me wonder how many prospective customers will be put off the program by all of this.




Regards,


Bob

Interesting thread.
A long time ago when I first posted a song here, under a different user name, I got these comments. One person still comments on this site. But I will never say who it was and I can't remember the song

"By all means. It's poorly played, out of time, and sounds like someone cutting down trees in a windtunnel. If you like it, keep it. That way you'll never learn the right way. Great."

"Is there construction going on behind you when you sang this? The percussion sound is odd. I thought I made out a nail gun and someone falling off a scaffold in the background."

I kept these comments just to remind me of the nice people on here. One of whom posted this:

"Has an Imagine-era John Lennon flavor to it. The part-time voice doubling is a nice touch, too. Smooth out the production and work on a couple of notes, otherwise very nice. Good song." NOW that is good advice and something to work on, which I did and still do.

Anyway,

Alyn

I meant it as, I wasn't referring to anything that had to do with the showcase when I started the thread. Not in a scolding "don't post about the showcase in my thread" kind of way.

I just wanted to be VERY clear, that my comments where NOT meant ABOUT the showcase. Apparently, that still wasn't clear? My comments were/are about people who send me demos of their talent for hire. Feel free to post in the thread anything you want about the showcase, but I don't want people to think I'm saying bad things about the showcase. That's my intent in the least!



100% agree. I love hearing where people are at, what they are doing and watching them improve if they desire. I would love to think they would feel ok with asking for help where needed. That's the idea to me. To help others with what THEY want to do...whatever that may be.



Just so I know, are you referring to my thread, or the above WendyM and others may feel?

If this thread in any way is taken as something other than what I intended, "nuke it" and don't leave a headstone

Personally, I didn't think it was all that controversial. I know it went a lot of different directions, but I felt there was some good advice given. But it seriously isn't all that important of a topic. I'm here to learn. I feel you do that by listening. Sometimes the questions have to be asked to be able to listen to the response.

That being said, if the response coming back would be a universal misunderstanding of what I'm saying, then I put that on my poor communication. This may come as a surprise, but this wouldn't be the 1st time I was misunderstood on the forum.

So I leave it in all of your hands. I can ask the mods to remove the thread and we all move on to better things, if that's what needs to be done.