Dear PG Music,

Please explain to me why you solely target BIAB for Windows users? Why do us Mac users get the basic features of BIAB, Why do you only make Real Band, Power Tracks, and the iOS app only for Windows users? I love BIAB, but your marketing lacks common sense. If you are going to get both OS users to buy your product, you should make sure that all the version has all the same features and software, at the same time. Again, I love BIAB, but I just wish you could be fair to both parties.

No offense sir but you have to look at overall market share. There are just a lot more PC users than MAC:

Older info but probably not too much different....

According to the latest numbers from NetMarketShare, the Mac now accounts for 9.57 percent of all PCs currently in use. Windows is of course still number one, with 88.77 percent of all usage. (Linux is in third, with 1.65 percent.)May 3, 2016 - https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/66933/mac-nears-10-percent-usage-share

So, what? Most of the audio industry uses Macs, and most plugins, DAWs, and virtual instruments cater to both OSs with the same features.

And I say so what to that, IT COSTS TIME AND MONEY to write and test code for multiple OS's are you willing to fork over more money FOR BIAB for Mac's. I don't want Mac work by PG to affect or have impact on development of stuff for the PC version or have that Mac work indirectly add to cost of the PC product because folks have to be paid, overhead has to be paid, ....

There are Apple programs that exclusively Apple OS: should we I complain to Apple about Logic Pro?

Besides I don't want to indirectly underwrite Apple any more than I absolutely have to. As a matter of fact I'd like to see the whole company (Apple) fold up their tent and go away.

Peace

Larry

I understand your point about the whole Apple marketing scheme ever since Steve Jobs died and I don't think it will have an impact on the cost of the PC version, and you have every right to complain about Logic Pro being only for Mac users. If you look at what you get with the Mac version, you would conclude that you would be better off getting a laptop PC and buying BIAB for Windows. What I am asking for is for PG Music to respect both parties.

Well, BiaB has its roots as a DOS application that became a Windows application.

So the codebase is pretty firmly planted on the PC.

When choosing to create a Mac application, I suspect that PG Music has a choice: port the existing Windows application to a cross-platform library so that Mac version could share a common codebase, or build the Mac port from scratch.

As far as I know, there weren't very many cross-platform libraries that supplied native look and feel and had excellent audio support.

Moving to a cross-platform library would mean potentially replacing solid, working code with bug-ridden new code that at the end of a long effort might not even work well.

I'm guessing that they decided to build the Mac version from scratch.

But when you build a complex computer program, you don't really build everything "from scratch." Instead, you end up relying on third party tools to supply some of the features.

For example, BiaB uses a third party library to handle audio stretching, which is far superior to what they had before.

Unfortunately, not every library available on the PC platform is available on the Mac. So right there, you're not going to have parity for the two programs. You're not going to remove features from the PC just because you don't have it for the Mac, right?

Then comes the question of which version is going to be the reference platform. You generally don't want to have different features in the applications, so you're going to code them on one platform first.

For reasons already mentioned, it makes sense for the PC to be the reference platform.

Now, not every feature that gets coded makes it out the door. Sometimes changes made to the code break other features in unexpected ways. So it makes sense that features wouldn't be ported to the Mac until they were actually demonstrated to work on the PC. Otherwise, it's twice as expensive when you make a mistake and have to abandon something.

Finally, I'm sure that it's expensive to maintain two separate applications. Someone who's intimately familiar with the Windows API is generally not also a Mac specialist. So it's likely that the Mac coding team is smaller than the PC coding team.

I suspect that there are just a lot of things that make it hard to get the Mac version up to the level of the PC.

None of this is any consolation to a Mac user.

One can make a similar comparison with car models, washing machines, television sets and more. Some manufacturers will have more or different features than other manufacturers.

In addition to the useful dialog from others above, I understand and respect your frustration, but you actually can have all of the features of the PC version if you want. Just buy the PC version.

I'm in two minds on the issue. On the one hand, I reckon PG Music is missing an opportunity in not targeting Macs. Macs are ubiquitous in the audio industry. If you want the trickle down effect from celebrity endorsements etc then you should come to the party. As it stands the PC orientation brands BIAB as a hobbyists program.

On the other hand, as a Mac user I'm not sure I'm missing out on much. I don't think Realband is for me when I have Logic Pro at my disposal. BIAB does everything I want it to ie access to cool Realtracks. Maybe it's because I'm a Mac user but I see BIAB as part of the music production process, not an all-in-one solution.

I'm a Windows user and that's exactly how I think, too.

Exactly.

I love BiaB

I love my Mac, iPad and iPhone

I love the amazing power of Logic Pro X and its $199 price with free and frequent updates.

I love Izotope and their world of Mac compatible products.

I love Apple’s cloistered “we’ll take care of you world” including absolutely seamless IOS and MacOS updates.

I often communicate with BiaB Windows users and for my production purposes I don’t feel that I’m lacking. Your results may vary and I apppreciate and understand that.

Cheers, Bud

That makes at least three of us who think this way.

First of all, although I sell aftermarket styles for BiaB, I have no professional experience with PG Music except for a friendly one, and no 'inside information' so everything here is guesswork.

1) It takes thousands and thousands of hours to write software.

2) If you look at my style/fake business for BiaB and if you look at the average number of people reading the forums, there are 20 BiaB users on PC to 1 on Mac.

3) Therefore for the programmer spending thousands and thousands of hours writing code, for ever one dollar writing Mac code brings in, the PC brings in 20 dollars.

Fortunately style and song data are cross platform, so at Norton Music, I release Mac and PC versions at the same time and they are equal.

But put yourself in PG's shoes.

Say you are on your job and you had a choice at work to work on Project A and Project B. Both projects are time consuming and would take about the same amount of time to complete. Project A pays you a bonus over your regular pay of $1 per hour and Project B pays a bonus of $20 per hour. Which would you take?

The problem with Apple is that they make their products non-compatible with the rest of the computer world. Even in the early days by using screws that needed a patented tool to open the cases so a non-Apple computer tech couldn't even fix them because they controlled to tools.

They use proprietary jacks (like the lightning) that they keep the patent on, and as soon as the patent becomes PD, they will introduce another patented connection.

Why?

Steve Jobs' philosophy. Keep the Apple people from straying to another platform by making the switch either difficult or costly.

Now I can't say whether that is a good business plan or not, because I'm not in their shoes, but it does make things difficult for the cross-platform software author.

Getting paid 20 times more for the same amount of work on the PC is very tempting.

But of course, that leaves an opportunity for another to write exclusively for Mac and take the lower profits because the competition in the Windows arena is also very fierce.

And Apple isn't the only one that does this. I had a minivan that I need because I'm a gigging musician. After about 90,000 miles the transmission oil needed changing. My mechanic explained to me that it needs Mopar oil which costs $85.00 per quart. He said they change the specifications a tiny bit, that doesn't really matter, but if I put anything else into it, it will void the 100,000 mile warranty. The car gave me good service so I paid $85.00 per quart. It was OK, the van lasted about 200,000 miles before I wore it out.

Because of these fairly common business practices, Apple people sometimes have to wait or settle for less in the software arena, but on the other had, they also get exclusives.

And I do freelance recording as 'sax for hire' and every studio I've been in for the past 20 years has had both Mac and PC computers in it. Probably for the same troubles you are going through.

Insights and incites by Notes

Make that four.

You can run the PC version of BIAB on your Mac with a utility. Peter Gannon does.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/band-in-a-box/id397173717?mt=8

That makes 4 of us.

Yes, there is the BIAB app, but that’s not what I meant. Run boot camp or parallels on the Mac, load Windows, then run BIAB for PC.

However: that is only true for business use computers.

When it comes to the creative use of computers the top video/audio recording studios use Mac.

Hey Matt, wouldn't this make you vulnerable to the vast world of PC virus if you had to access the net via the partition? I know a lot of Mac users including myself who would not relish the notion of having to load Windows antivirus software or deal with the host of Windows update issues. FWIW.

Bud

Steve Jobs' marketing strategy was to get Apple Computers into schools if even at a dead loss. He realized the "future value" of building a huge and loyal customer base. We are seeing a generation of adults who were weaned on Apple and aren't about to change.

The result has been that Apple has held a monopoly on their hardware/software development making outside developers cautious to invest the required R&D time/money to develop anything for Apple Computers. Apple retains too much unfettered control.

I'm seeing a lot of Apple versions being shipped that I attribute to the "Jobs' Marketing Strategy".

When I shopped my first ever computer, I looked for the OS that had the most software available. At that time, Windows PCs had 10 times more software that I was interested in and the pricing was lower due, in part, to the "free market" cloning of IBM computers.

In this regard, Jobs shot himself in the foot. While IBM clones were being made in abundance worldwide, Apples were limited to a very limited production in Apple facilities where Jobs maintained tight ( probably to a paranoid degree ) control.

Donny

Sure. You would want to run Windows as safely in this mode as you would standalone. [Macs get viruses, too] I will just point out again that Peter Gannon runs BIAB this way; that's what he uses to develop the PC version. If someone is desperate to have the features of the PC version of BIAB, and have the latest version now but run it on a Mac, they can.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I mentioned to purchase the PC version.

(And all computers are subject to viruses, and good A/V software simply must be part of the user's toolkit. No O/S is immune.)

They also mostly run Pro Tools. What's your point?

From your comments you don't seem to get that while BIAB CAN be used as a DAW it is designed to CREATE music, and the DAW is just a convenience feature. I can't imagine a studio in the world using BIAB as their DAW of choice because most people buying time in those studios are doing so to record their music. "Most" of the audio industry doesn't use BIAB because the audio industry records people playing live.

The industry as it relates to film work also uses SMPTE striping. Does BIAB even do that? I never had reason to investigate.

So that logic of "the audio industry" has no weight on a forum as specific as this one. The users here do a very specific thing with the software supported here. Let's keep focus on what BIAB is and what we really discuss here. I can say that if I was able to code software I would not do it for Mac. The most recent stats I can find say that the Mac market share is 9.57%. Now, if you were going to produce a product, would you produce it for 10% of the buying public or 90%?

Here's my opinion.

If Mac people want more written for them, they should buy every app in their field of interest, from ever vendor who offers something in that field of interest and buy every update and extra that goes along with any app in their field of interest. (Hint- start with all the Norton BiaB products, <wink/grin>).

Am I dreaming? Of course because that will never happen.

But remember, the purpose of being in business is to make money. You need money for yourself, you need money to pay help and subcontractors, you need money to pay for the 'silent partners' in business like the banks, insurance companies, web hosts, local taxing authorities, regional/federal taxing authorities, shopping carts, merchants accounts, credit card authorization services and all the other entities that take a piece of your profits.

Pitching your product to the biggest market share is the most common way of making the most money for the time invested.

True there will always be some who write exclusively for the minor market and want to be the bigger fish in the smaller pond. And that's a good thing.

People write phone apps for Apple and Google because they dominate the phone market. Windows came out with a great phone, it got rave reviews in all the trade magazines, and almost everything was compatible with Windows tablet and desktop computers.

But Windows came to the phone market too late, and the app authors didn't want to waste their time writing for a phone that only held 5% of the market. They can target almost 50% of the market writing for either iOS or Android. So Windows Phone fades away not because the phone is inferior, but because the app authors want to maximize the return for the thousands of hours writing code.

Now don't get me wrong. Apple makes a fine computer. OSX has some things I like better than Win10, and Win10 has some things I like better than OSX. None of the advantages or disadvantages is a deal breaker for me.

But the fact that the world of Windows offers me more software choices by far makes me choose Windows as my main computer.

I release styles and fake disks for Band-in-a-Box for Windows and Mac at the same time, and other than the installation process they are equal. That's because PG Music makes the file data for both platforms identical. This wasn't the case in the early days of BiaB, so give them credit for trying.

And if they write for Windows first, and put a little extra effort in the Windows app, remember, Windows is probably at least 80% of their market, probably closer to 90%, and what is put into the Windows app makes them enough money to develop a similar product for Mac. So appreciate that they write for Mac.

Insights and incites by Notes

With all due respect...

This discussion is like a time warp going back 15-20 years. Either a bunch of old guys reliving there dwindling memories or some very young guys who don't know what has already been well established.

Now where is that smiley face..

Funny, Dan. Except 20 years ago, PG Music didn’t offer a Mac version of BIAB. Imagine what the complaints were like then.

Glad you recognized the humor. I added two-smiley faces just to be sure folks understood where I was coming from.

I'd like to start using BIAB audiophile 2018 (Windows version) on my Mac AirBook
High Sierra intel i7 ... 1.7Ghz ... 8 gig ram ... 512 gig SSD

Any suggestions as to which version of Windows 10 to use (Home or Pro) with Boot Camp?

I've had the Audiophile version since at least 2010 and I used Boot Camp / Windows to run that version on my MacPro and it ran smoother on the Mac than on a Think Pad.
I've been using the Think Pad, though for the subsequent audiophile updates, but I'm primarily a Mac user and I don't feel like getting another PC.

I'm assuming that this time around I'll be able to run the 64 bit BIAB. If memory serves, back in the old days the Boot Camp setup would only run 32 bit.

Thanks
Dave

First off, there is no 64 bit BiaB. It is 32 bit, though JBridge allows some plugins to run in 64 bit.
As for Win 10 Home or Pro; for BiaB it will likely not matter.
I've seen a Mac running Win 10 with Bootstrap do much more complicated stuff than run BiaB.
BiaB should be a piece of cake.
Of course YMMV

You may want to ask this question on the Mac Forum to see if other Mac users have advice -
http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=39&page=1

As above. Also, the differences between Windows 10 Home and Pro primarily have to do with networking. That would be irrelevant here.

Super ...
Thanks fellas.

They also use Pro Tools, which ends the parallel portion of this theory.

BIAB creates music. Those top studios to which you refer as the basis of your thesis don't need what BIAB does. BIAB never claimed to be the DAW that those top studios need.

This is comparing a NASCAR car to a top fuel dragster. One is meant to run a 500 mile race. The other is made for 1/4 mile. Both "cars", but not built for the same end result. Remember, the engines on those top fuel rail job cars are rebuilt after 2 or 3 runs. (That is just to point out that they are not the same thing. Just like BIAB is not like any other DAW written to MIX music, not create it.)

For all the discussion about PC or MacOS, why not just spend $400 and buy a PC, then move your wav files to your Mac? Then you can enjoy what BIAB really does.

Pretty simply stated, there is no "full version" for Mac for the same reason there was not a huge amount of aftermarket accessories made for dressing up the Yugo.

Meaning that there was not a lot of people in that market, and once those people were done buying the customer base would dry up.

I once played in a little town in Canada that had about 2000 people. They had TWO appliance stores. If you figure a family unit to be 2 parents and 2 kids, that is 500 households in that town. How many refrigerators can you sell to a town with 500 houses? They last like 10 years. To apply that math exponentially, 50 houses per year will need a fridge. That mean each store had a potential customer base to support the sale of 25 refrigerators a year. Is that enough to keep a business open? 2 fridges a month?

Supply and demand. Nothing more. Not that many Mac buyers, no money spent to develop a fully featured Mac version.

Eddie,

You sir, are just way too logical!

I agree Don. I must admit to being very impressed with all the math and scientific statistical analysis.

Even better. That town of 2000 had FOUR bars with live music! I remember the Wednesday of that week there was nobody there but the bartenders so for 2 sets we were playing songs we didn't really play, including some television show theme songs. Then at midnight a bachelorette party came in and we had to do the real stuff. FOUR bars that paid bands in that little city.

I guess Izotope, Waves and a host of other complex sophisticated software manufacturers love Yugos

Several other posts have mentioned this......

There's an app or a program that lets you (dual) boot and switch to WINDOWS on a MAC.

The simple solution as I see it is to buy the Windows version of BB which gives you RB as well and of course the real tracks.... install the program on the MAC that lets you run windows, install BB on the Mac, use an external USB interface, and you should be good to go.

I'd do that rather than complain that PG isn't catering to less than 10% of the market, if I had a Mac.

The only downfall to that is that if your mac is on the net it then, via then windows partition, becomes vulnerable to the world of PC viruses...the vast, vast majority of which are not known to macOS. And, consequently, you would have to load and maintain Windows antivirus software.

We are happy Mac BiaB users as are the other Mac users that I know on the forum.

J&B

I knew a girl way back when that had her Yugo STOLEN. Yep. Not a typo. Somebody stole a YUGO!!

My advice to her was to and accept that if somebody needed a car THAT bad that they would risk jail time to steal a YUGO, just let them have it. Claim it on insurance and get the $17.63 insurance was going to pay her for it, and buy a real car.

I was still a mailman and part time musician then. One of my patrons got a Yugo immediately when they came out, in 1985. She needed a part for her carburetor 7 weeks later. It took 37 weeks to get that part. In fact I quit the post office to go full time in August of 1986 and she had still not gotten the part.

They sold a total of 141,651 cars in the US, never more than 48,000 in a year (1987). In 1992, sales in the US totaled 1,412 cars, and the company folded and sold their assets to Fiat.

I suspect Izotope has made more sales.

Does Mac have something akin to Windows virtual environment where you run something but not really "run" it?

I’m not a Mac expert, but of course there’s the ability to run Windows under Mac via Bootcamp or Parallels. You’re talking about running a virtual machine of Mac OS within Mac OS?

No. Running a virtual machine of Windows on a Mac. Dual booting is not quite the same. I don't know enough about Windows emulation on the Mac to know it. I had one mac in my life and that was just long enough to learn the user interface so I could help customers set up their Mac on the internet when I worked for an internet provider. I bought a cheap Mac Mini and used it for a few weeks. Recently sold it off to a guy who wanted it just for nostalgia value in his personal Mac Hall of Fame. He has literally one of every model mac ever made, back to those first Apple computers. And as much money as he must have to buy one of everything Mac he STILL haggled me down!

Eventually you have to also consider the cost of the Windows license, which makes owning an actual PC almost worth the cost difference.

Other differences I've noticed;
Networking appears to still happen in a Mac world due to hardware.
Many 'not real recent' routers have trouble working with a Mac running Windows in Bootcamp, at least in a production VPN environment. These were not home routers, but routers costing $1000's.

Typically a remote Mac could connect to Windows machines inside the VPN just fine, but neither Windows machines nor Macs could connect to the Mac's (even when booted to Windows) inside the VPN without patching the router.
Patching a router in a true production environment, or even a corporate one, is not for the faint of heart.
I'm OK going as far as using Telnet or an interface and making changes to remote/production router configs(in my job description), but patching the whole thing gets moved up the ladder to upper level IT for me.
.. I'm not driving 60 miles to sit in front of a dead router while 150 people are calling me if things go bad. <grin>

Anyway, lots to consider with running Windows on yer Mac.
Probably works fine for many, just stuff I've noticed over time.

We've made a Mac and PC version of BiaB for almost 30 years, and plan to continue that.

The PC version has been significantly ahead of the Mac version, except for the last few years, where the Mac version has caught up. One indication that it has caught up, is the nature of the requests for the Mac version. Instead of talking about BiaB, they talk about other programs like PowerTracks or RealBand, which we don't make for Mac. That reads like progress to me, because we used to hear about missing features in the Band-in-a-Box Mac version, but we added them, and the programs are very close now.

And the BIAB Mac version is better in some respects (driver latency and plugin support for examples ) and the musical content is and has always been identical (which seems like the most important point to me).

Thank you, Peter.

You might want to look at the BIAB for Mac forum where I posted an innocuous question that was rather hijacked into a discussion of deficiencies of BIAB for Mac and 64-bit. My question was simply on where to find the build number in the Mac version (that I just bought).