Old timers will know this, but we get new faces in here who are just starting out and I wanted to offer this little bit of info to those who may need to hear it.

There is often a tendency to leave everything panned dead down the middle. That is okay in some cases, but allow me to share how it was explained to me long ago in a production class.

Imagine your song is a baseball team. Now picture those players lined up in a way that the catcher is standing on home plate, the pitcher is on the mound, and the other 7 players are lined up in a straight line starting on second base and going directly into center field. Now imagine you are standing in the stands directly behind the catcher. All you see is one player. So, you say "I want to see ALL the players", so you tell the last six players in the line to fan out, 3 to the left and 3 to the right. Now you can see all 9 players. Some appear closer, some further away, to the point where you can see that those last 2 players on each side are visible, but don't look as big as the others.

That example is your eyes doing what your ears do. If all your tracks are dead middle, they are in a line like the players. Once you move them left and right, they "appear" to your ears. Vocals, bass and solos usually stay dead middle. Drums (in this context) are all on one track so there isn't much choice, but live drums usually have the kit set up with several dedicated mics panned in a way that the drummer's tom toms will "walk" around the mix when he plays them. Rhythm instruments, like piano,organ, guitar, etc... can be panned left and right to give the sound some depth. To let your ears "see" them.

Often people in the learning stage of the mixing end of the game leave everything panned dead center. Experiment with moving things left and right and listen after the changes. It may be subtle, but it will be apparent. Something else I do is once I have it like I want it, I then play it again with my back to the sound source. It WILL sound a little different when your ears are turned around. If it sounds good both ways, it's done. Take it off the fire and stop cooking it.

Worth posting that in the Tips'n'Tricks forum Eddie. Valuable information there.

Great analogy, Eddie!

It is a good analogy.

The Bose company used a similar reference to describe how its personal amplifiers (those column sticks) worked better for listeners. When the stick is behind the performer, the audience both sees and hears things in the same place. In many concerts, the sound is set up such that the performer could come out of a speaker far away from where he or she is playing, and this is disconcerting to the listener even if they don't realize why.

I'm not a fan of the sound quality of those Bose units, but the concept is good.

Good subject. From my analog days to nowadays my primary objective in mixing has been to obtain a live sound -- as though you were sitting in the front of the band and perhaps 20 feet back listening. When I think from that perspective it has always been relatively easy to set up a soundstage with panning (and reverb). Toward that end I rarely ever use stereo tracks...the exceptions being keys and of course drums. One of the first mix things I do is convert most RTs to mono. Different DAW's handle panning stereo in different ways. It's good to be familiar with how they do it and how it affects the soundstage.

Ole guy two cents worth and certainly YMMV.

Bud

I've never heard it put that way before but a great visual analogy you've made here. The following is how I usually pan my parts...

Main Vocal - Center
Solo Instruments - Center
Drums - L 4-6
Bass - R 4-6
Guitar 1 - L 25-30
Guitar 2 - R 25-30
Other Accompanying Instruments - 45-60 in either direction
Backup Vocals - Doubled and Panned Hard Left and Right

I'm not saying that this is correct or the only way, but it may help someone that is new to panning find a better mix.

Also don't forget that many of the styles on BIAB already have parts panned. So if you are exporting to a separate DAW to do your panning and mixing make sure that you zero out the panning in BIAB before exporting.

Hi,
Thats interesting Eddie .Izotope have a visual mixer that shows you in one screen where everything is panned .You can move instruments/vocals over and back up and down and also widen or narrow the stereo .Bass guitar is always a problem to me though.Should I leave it dead centre or move it.H

I'm still a little old school and typically pan the bass and the kick drum center.

I know the reason for this was so that in the vinyl days, the needle didn't get kicked out of the groove, and I know that's not a problem any more.

However they are too low to interfere with the lead vocals so it doesn't hurt anything. Perhaps because I've spent so much time listening to music mixed this way, I just prefer it.

The rest of the mix depends on what the instruments are. I like to separate instruments that occupy the same frequencies, sometimes if there is a call and response part in the comp section I'll pan them a bit L&R and I have no set rule other than bass, kick drum and lead vocals center.

For my live performances, I go mono. Actually I put the bass and drums on the L channel and the comp on the R - but I pan them both dead center. Why? If playing a dinner set, I can turn the bass/drum track down a bit, and if it is an energetic dance set I can tweak it up a bit.

Why pan mono? Not everybody in the audience is going to be in the sweet spot for stereo, and some are going to be very close to one channel and not the other.

But there is more than one correct way to do this. Whatever works for you.

Insights and incites by Notes

I went to see a friend on a gig a long time ago, and he had a wireless setup on his guitar. So he starts to play a long solo, gets off the stage, and wanders around the audience. To see him walk around the club in for all practical purposes silence while the sound is coming from the stage. Very disconcerting.

I have another friend who does this with a wireless mic on his sax, and that is better because you can hear the acoustic sound move with him.

I don't leave the stage but by panning in mono, I avoid the problem as all the sound is everywhere.

And I am not a fan of those Bose sticks either. They don't sound bad, but my Electro-Voice ZLX-15P speakers sound much better. They are tighter, all the parts come through better, the low end is definitely superior, and the mids cleaner.

Insights and incites by Notes

You might want one of these:



https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ELX200-18SP--electro-voice-elx200-18sp-18-inch-powered-subwoofer



Really fills up the dance floor.


Regards,

Bob

My brain works like this in regard to panning.

If I am sitting in front of my computer, the speakers are so close together than panning is lost to my ears. However, if I am wearing phones, or listening on a stereo with separation, then my brain listens differently, more like i am listening to live performance in a small club. And if I am listening to a live performance in a small club, the keyboards are stage left, the guitar stage half left, the sax stage right. So when I pan the rhythm sections, i put the parts that way. Piano far left, guitar half left, sax right. The bass and drums stay down the middle. The drum parts generated by Real Band are usually stereo, and I often split that drum track into 2 mono tracks and put them 10 degrees off center.

There are obviously going to be exceptions. One song on the canvas right now has a stereo percussion part that starts left and right but during the song automation pans it back and forth so you can hear the percussion part "walking" around the mix. It's a very strange tune to begin with and that just seemed to fit it.

Or course, arena type music is usually mono coming from both sides of the stage, but I probably haven't seen more then 4-5 of those kind of concerts in the last 20 years. just not interested in paying the kind of prices they charge to see music I already know.

Eddie, you should be able to hear panning changes on your monitors at your computer. If you can’t, they should be placed in an equilateral triangle with your head’s position.

In this context Matt, the "computer" is just the computer i sit at and surf on, where the little Logitec speakers are like 22 inches apart. While I can hear SOME panning, it isn't as obvious as on the studio computer where the near fields are 4 feet apart and at head level. Those monitors 2 feet to each side of my head allows me to hear panning more distinctly. I know what you mean though. In the course of testing automation panning movements down here (I write down here and finish things up there) I have to move my ears closer to the left, then the right, and so on, to hear it.

That’s good, Eddie. I figured you knew the right way to do it. I see now you’re talking about another computer.

This turned into a lot of reading, sorry ..

I've worked with numerous artists/engineers that learned panning in various ways. The ball field example was a new one to me, so thanks for that.

In my mind I 'see' things like as shown in the image below (forgive the crude art, but it serves a purpose). Then I try to pan/arrange to make it sound like I see it.

This example image, to me, represents one possible sound stage setup. The musicians each have their place.
Sure you could reverse guitar and keys (which are their own challenge as explained later), but it'll suffice.

Note; drums, bass and vocals all appear to be fairly center. More so in an actual mix, but not possible on a real stage unless either the drums hide the bass or vice-versa, thus the stage layout in the drawing.

Now Initially I'll pan instruments like this image to get a basic sound stage layout.

Then;
drums are always recorded multitrack here, and thus are possible to pan. I do not pan full spectrum (100% R/ 100% L) to make the toms go far left to far right. Instead I give them about 20%-30% of the soundstage to imply some L/R separation. Ride favors a little right, snare a hair left, but kick is dead center. Snare can be a hair left but not much. Very minute; just enough to distinguish it as a separate track from bass drum, and then include EQ to further separate.

Bass guitar is dead center, which is the first hurdle; how to keep the centered bass drum and bass guitar from muddying/conflicting. My first step solving this is EQ; get the BD out of the 60-100Hz range, give it some 30-40 if possible .. then what makes less sense is to give both the BD and bass guitar a little added 2kHz boost. For some reason this helps separate them yet tie them in a bit. As Mac used to say, a bass track should sound like you are working on an old buick; lots of clanking. And I like the sound of the kick pedal hitting the head (snap!)

Then the vocals are also center (except for backup vocals which get spread around the stage to match the existing players).
Because the vocals are not in the BD/bass gtr frequency range this is usually a little less of a challenge. They have their own space due to sonic range. Cut 100-300 Hz on vox, use judgement.

Where it gets tricky is guitar and keys.
For a piano sound, I'll normally try to keep it confined to the general soundstage range of the keys as shown in the diagram, but still use L/R .. and just do it on separate tracks to define 'where' it is on stage, yet keep a little separation between the two channels. So maybe +5 for upper keys and + 20 for lower (not MONO sounding). Adjust to taste as needed.

However, if the keys are playing an ethereal Pad sound I may want to abandon that approach all together, and spread it out across the whole stage (-30 and +30). This warps it around behind the whole rest of the mix and gives it the space needed.

Kinda the same with guitar.
I also use some other tricks with guitar. If it is a chunking rhythm; it needs a defined place, likely -15 to -20. If it is a solo, I'll may move it slowly center, maybe even have it move the panning at the beginning of the solo, like the guitar player started soloing and walked out to center stage for the main part (ala Earl Slick or Alomar with Bowie).

If it is a chorusy guitar I may spread it in a defined section much like the keys mentioned earlier, treating it as a Pad sound.

There is so much that can be done with panning alone that creates a 'stage'.

Then, you get into the psychoacoustics of the setting.
The reverb of every instrument can help re-enforce the facade 'visually'.
The guitar may have more early reflection than the vocals, etc. and when it moves out front/center these reflections will change to improve the facade even more (less left early reflection and more delayed center reflection).

Using reverbs that allow such adjustments is key.

Actually convincing yourself a player has moved across stage (when you know he hasn't) can be fun.

I love playing with mixing and the 'psychoacoustic' effect it has.
Just changing the panning on a single track can make it seem like another player is there, even though all the sounds came from the same track.

I would never suggest this for Live audio, but for mixing a CD it's a lot of the fun.

A really interesting method I have been reading in the past few nights is to listen to the master in mono then pan the instruments until you hear a nice separation of tones. For example, if you have two guitars pan them so you can identify both guitars in the mono master clearly. According to this guys theory when the master is made stereo again you will have the instruments in a good place. I can see how it works.

Tony

If I have 2 guitars playing at the same time, yes I would tend to pan them opposite for separation.
However, 'panning in MONO' is quite a confusing concept, by definition MONO means everything is centered. At that point EQ/volume are your next available options for separation .. at least as far as I know. Panning *may* help with volumes, if that is what he was alluding to. But basic volume settings would likely work just as well when mixing a MONO mix. .. unless I'm totally missing something here.

Rharv, i suspect that what he is talking about is using a mid/side processor to flip back and forth between stereo and monophonic playback so that you can hear what sort of phase cancelation etc occurs in the monophonic playback. If you are doing that you can be listening to your stereo summed to mono and as you are playing back you fiddle with your stereo panning and hear the result.

Actually as I grab the concept one uses EQ, reverb and or delay and assuming two guitar tracks each guitar track with the tonal and slight variances in delay or reverb plus slight differences in what it being played distinguishes each guitar to some extent. Then putting the master into mono mode and panning each each guitar to the point where you get the best blend in mono and clear separation of tracks will put the tracks in the best place for stereo. Yes phasing does contribute to the overall effect. Basically most pros that I read tend to suggest if you put a stero mix to mono the mix should not lose a lot. This concept works from the opposite perspective. i.e. If you get it right in mono it should be in the right place in stereo.

Tony

Tony, what is bothering Rharv is how you can pan a monophonic playback. The only way I can think of is with a mid/side processor letting you access the stereo mix at the same time you are listening to the summed recording. How are you doing it?

I always check the mix in mono before panning, and at low volume. If it works that way, it will work when separated.

And no, I don't want a subwoofer, too much to schlep.

Suit yourself. We found it beneficial.


Regards,

Bob

I always defined mono as "the same thing coming from both sides". So you can still pan instruments, just not route them to discrete left and right on the main mix. Like an interface has a switch to go from mono to stereo so if you have an instrument plugged into the left you can switch it and hear it in both ears..... That is really splitting hairs vis a vis this thread topic, but it is there just the same.

So I THINK (dangerous when I do that) I know what he means by a mono send of a stereo mix.

I used Reaper which has a mono button on the master. For example, I have bass and drums in the middle, a piano 20% either left or right the two guitars on 70% right one about 70% left. All sounds fine in stereo then push the mono button sound becomes much thinner. Swap the sides of the guitars or maybe move the piano the overall mono sound becomes more solid. When going back to stereo the various parts seem to have better definition and I feel I have most of what I want in mono.

I do this as sometimes I use other people's PA equipment when performing and I could lose one side of the mix or the gear is mono.

How Reaper treats the mono I am unclear about.

Tony

A slight change in a stereo mix can be noticed in MONO afterwards, .. I think I see what you are saying now.
Mainly caused by the perceived volume/EQ in the end result more than the 'panning'. Reverb and such would come into play to.
(note panning is Subject of this Topic)
Guess I didn't follow the flow of the thread. Now I see you are A/B comparing stereo to MONO, which is different than what I thought I read.

An earlier post sounded like there was 'stereo mixing' going on using a MONO signal, which is indeed what threw me. That made no sense.
/missed it by that much

Rharv, it is most likely the way I put it.

Tony

I used to carry one, it was big, heavy, and I could pump bass like a DJ, but I mostly play to an elderly crowd, one that does not want the boom boom of a disco. My E-V ZXL15P speakers pump out plenty of bass, and enough for the audience I am pitching my wares to. I've had a house gig for 10 years, and have been playing for others 20 years or more a few times per year. Last week I had one day off, this week two - all one-nighters. I don't need to schlep a sub. YMMV

Insights and incites by Notes

Regarding “too much to schlep” my grandson’s Boy Scout group had a live 5 piece band at it’s fundraiser dinner this weekend. After they finished playing they were rolling cords and hauling equipment for an hour! I don’t miss those days at all.
The most I bring now is a Fender 150 Passport and at 35-40 pounds that is enough for me as far as sound reinforcement and weight. Of course at the age of 76 I am often the youngest person in the room at my performances.
I create all of my BIAB songs in stereo because the 150 is stereo and I can fine tune the sound to the room.

It takes Leilani and I about an hour to set up. I thought about an all-in-one PA set like a Passport but it won't work for our situation.

The PA fits in a 10 space rack with a mixer, BBE Sonic Maximizer (makes a BIG difference), 4 sound modules (for our synths), and an FX unit. Plus two E-V ZLX-15P speakers @ 38 lbs each.

The instruments are two guitars, one Tactile Midi Controller, one Percussion Controller, one Tenor sax, one Flute and two Wind Midi Controllers.

Plus 3 laptop computers (we only need two, but one is up and running as a fail-safe 'the gig must go on' spare).

There are two of us to schlep so the work is cut in half - and 'they' say that weight bearing exercise is good for people 'our age'.

I could lighten the load by not taking as many instruments, but then gigging wouldn't be as much fun. I like playing the guitar, sax, wind synth, and flute. Sometimes I wish I brought a keyboard or my bass (ain't gonna happen).

And to get back on topic, 'panning' center (running in mono) is essential. Often we play dinner sets before the dance sets, running at about 65db (A weighted, slow response) and with the speakers set wide, a guest sitting on either edge of the room would not be able to hear one of the channels.

I decided this a long time ago while sitting in a pizza restaurant in a shopping center. They used those ceiling speakers for their background music. We sat at the front of the restaurant and could only hear one channel. I missed some of the parts of the songs I was familiar with that were panned to the back of the restaurant. OK I'm weird, I actually listen to the background music, but I figure there are other weirdos out there.

Sometimes we'll play parties and put one speaker in the clubhouse and another out the door by the pool.

In many odd rooms that we play, I might have to turn one channel down because of the close proximity to an audience member, and the other speaker near the dance floor.

Mono makes my life easier, and for a balanced sound for the audience, whether they are in the sweet spot or the peripherals.

Now if I was mixing for someone listening with earbuds or at home on a stereo system, I'd pan in stereo.

Insights and incites by Notes

I must be one of them. Don't laugh. I'm guilty of listening to elevator music. I actually enjoy a lot of it. I think about the skill of the musicians, the recording studio, who composed it, the sound engineer, how it was produced. So I'm guilty, because I listen to this stuff also. Despite what others might think about background music, I don't think that makes 'real musicians' viewpoints on background music too weird at all .