https://soundcloud.com/charlie-fogle/first-times

****** Song Summary *************
Key=C , Tempo 86,
Style is _CBALAD2.STY (Country Bal w PedSteel (85 RS))

RT in song: 1418:Bass, Electric, SouthernRock Ev16 085
RT in song: 785:Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming

CrossoverSnappy Sw16 090
RT in style: ~362:Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Ev 085
RealTracks in style: ~363:Pedal Steel, Background Ev 085
RT in song: 2001:Pedal Steel, Soloist CountryPaul Ev 085
RealTracks in song: 624:Fiddle, Soloist George Ev 085
RT in style: NashvilleEven8^6-a:Snare, HiHat , b:Snare,
HiHat Open
*******************
Here is the short of a long story. This is a new version of a song from many years ago, somewhere around 2003, that I created music to lyrics a songwriter friend, Rudy Spivey wrote from inspiration of the somberness of my daughter leaving the nest embarking on a new life of marriage, job and children. At the time, she still lived on the street she had lived her entire life on. I think Rudy captured her feelings and mood quite well. The music of this version is updated and heavily altered from the original.

Originally, I wrote the music using a cheap Keyboard that had a few styles and decent midi sounds. I chose an uptempo, pop style with keyboards and distorted guitars and sang the lyrics.

It was critically acclaimed. By that, I mean it bombed. It flopped. Everyone was critical of it and did not like the song at all. The song quietly disappeared into the archives of my attic and was quickly forgotten by all. Rudy is mostly a country writer with a slant toward the older, more traditional songs of the past. For this song, my music and his words were a bad fit.

I recently came across the original CD while searching for something in my attic and I've been playing around with BIAB to see if I can salvage the song. I am presenting where I am at with the song now.

I'm hoping some of you may be interested in taking the role of producer for this and critique this version as if you had this song to pitch to a country A&R person. What would you alter? Does the music match the somberness of the lyrics? Does it need to be re-worked from scratch with a different chord progression or should it just go back to the attic archives?

My goal for this song is to put it within a framework that I can present it to Rudy as a song a country A&R person would find acceptable. He has not heard this new version yet.

Is this redemption or another crash and burn?

I like the feel and production-sparse, tasteful, and sentimental! A nice song, and well delivered. I really like the way your voice works with it too! On the single phrase with the harmony that repeats I believe 3 times in the song, there is a little something awkward with the harmony I feel. Overall, very nice work!! Take care. Greg

Nice lyric vocal and a clean production! The first time the snare left 0:38 it sounded abrupt to me -- like it came too soon or was missing a transitional roll. But that may be because I was focused on how good the drums sounded! I like it a lot but as a person with zero commercial aspirations I can't offer much help on the pitching.

Hi Charlie,

Very nice song with a genuine country feel in it.
I like the vocals and also the harmonies.

You asked for some comments on the arrangement:
I agree with the comment of Janice & Bud about the snare left at 0:38. Also I think that the drums in general (although they sound very bright and clear) should be a tiny bit less loud in the mix.
Finally it may be an idea to add a B4 (Hammond) real track in the chorus (at a very low volume) to get that subtle 'drifting' sound.

Regards,
Rob

Hi Charlie ...

Alan here as Di takes a nap!

I played lead guitar in a country band for almost 45 years. Yep, I'm an old fart! I'll get to your questions before giving you a summary opinion. So, for what it's worth, here are my opinions.

It's a bit hard to really comment on the lyric and the prosody it has with the musical bed without having the lyric in front of me. The one thing that caught my ear, though, was the first two lines of the first verse... "Just finished college...Graduated this year". Most publishers and A&R folks are gonna tell you "They're redundant, find a fresh way to convey the message without saying, more or less, the same thing in back to back lines." I also feel they'd probably tell you " A daughter so dear" is to cliche and dated. A suggestion, but you can probably do better:

College in my rear view
Real life lingered near
Married my first love
A daughter the first year

In this example, you've said the same thing as in the original verse but in a fresher way with no redundancy. Also, the last line embellishes the theme (First Times)of the song line. I'm sure you could do better than that example, but feel free to use any part of it should you choose to.

I'd bring the drums down a wee bit. In modern country music, loud drums usually work fine. But, this is a retro country song, reflecting on an era in country music when drums were not so prevalent. Also, a little more reverb on the drums would soften them somewhat.

The lyric, with the exception I noted above, works for the era you're trying to recreate. The lyric is relatively simple, which fits the time period. It tells a story from beginning to end ... another important facet for that era of country music.

The fiddle and pedal steel are real nice fit! The fiddle reminded me somewhat of Johnny Gimble and the pedal steel reminded me of Lloyd Green. However, I think you need a guitar in the verses for the background. That's the only place I'd use it, though. You wouldn't want it competing with pedal steel and fiddle in other areas. I would use a guitar track with simple, single-string backing lead, somewhat in the style of Roy Nichols (Merle Haggard's guitarist in his early recordings). That would fill out the verses without making them cluttered.

One final thought ... retro/classic country is a very tough market in Nashville these days. There's not a lot of demand for it. There are very loyal listeners for the style, but they are small in number in the big picture. The folks who listen to it, for the most part, are not the folks who are out there spending their money on music. But, if Rudy is doing it as personal project without the blessings of Nash-Vegas, it might work for you (and him).

Overall, the concept is good, the musical bed is very good, with the exception of the back-up guitar part I mentioned. A lead singer with a strong voice and a harmony singer with a good high tenor would be a great fit for this. The chord pattern and arrangement are real nice ... liked that a lot!

It's a real nice song that needs a little polishing. Keep in mind that the demand for this type of music is not strong. But for those who enjoy this style of music (I do!), it's a niece piece that a lot of folks can relate to.

I hope my comments and observations were helpful. Good luck with it ... I enjoyed my listen! Best to ya.

Alan (and a sleeping Di)

Hi, Charlie !:))


One of your best productions
without doubt !:))

Cheers
Dani

Like the mix on this one, clean; thanks for sharing!

Thanks for listening and commenting Greg. I appreciate your kind comment on the vocals. You also have a good ear. The awkward sound introduced during the backing vocals is distortion from clipping. For this recording, I used a Boss VE-20 vocal effect box. There is an impedance mis-match between the Boss unit and the Presonus audiobox interface. Matching the two units usually requires several minutes of trial and error testing and getting into the Boss sub-menu's carefully tweaking the settings. Changing to another effect requires stopping and tweaking again. I did not hear the distortion when adjusting the two units through the speakers but each time I used the backing effect, distortion was recorded. For the recording, I dropped the volume to lower the vocals down into the music to reduce the distortion rather than re-record the vocals since this is a working demo version. A DI box may help solve this problem but I do not like to keep adding devices to my input chain. I will probably use this for my excuse to upgrade the audiobox 22 to the audiobox 44 which has two actual line inputs that will give me the line in stereo inputs needed for my desktop setup.

Janice & Bud, thanks for your comments and input. The abrupt change in the drums at 0:38 -- the change was intentional but placed in the wrong bar. It was supposed to follow the transition out of the intro but I accidentally placed it in the wrong bar so the change occurred late and with no transition. I had also raised the volume of the drums throughout the the mix to review how the drums matched with the music and overlooked resetting the volume before I rendered the file.

I knew I would be doing additional editing and possibly over dubbing to this song and planned to correct the drums in the updated version.

Regarding pitching the song, my friend Rudy has been a successful songwriter and is also a family member. He wrote this song as a private gift for our family enjoyment rather than a song he planned to ever pitch. He wrote the lyrics intending me to write the music. The problem was I made a poor choice of music that did not match what he or anyone else felt the music should be.

My plan today was to revise the song by developing new music with a country sound. My request for input to a country A&R person was to give forum members and opportunity to discuss their personal ideas as if they had this particular song to pitch. Your input about that would have been perfectly valid even if you have never pitched a song. Your recordings and productions are always top notch and solid.

As others have stated, this song is somewhat dated and not anything that we would expect to hear on the radio and will not actually ever be pitched for a record release. My goal is to develop the song to be an enjoyable listen for Rudy, family and friends and my friends here on the forum. I find I enjoy the music submitted here on the forum much more desirable to listen to than what I hear on the radio.

OK, it was interesting reading the origins and history of this song and your take on it, and questions concerning it's future.

So, I will comment what I feel is an honest assessment of the song. Lots of questions have been asked. Let me say that .... IMHO..... this song is not ready for prime time. Nothing on the radio today sounds even remotely like this style. No, an A&R person would circle file this in 5 seconds. 30 years ago, perhaps this style would have had a chance..... today.... no way. Sorry if that sounds harsh but it is the reality on the country music business today. Turn on any top 40 radio station and listen for a few minutes. That ain't your momma's country music your hearing.

Every so often, I take a trip back down memory lane and page through the notebooks of all the old stuff I used to write thinking that, perhaps, I can find a gem in there and using what I now know about recording & production, resurrect a "keeper" from the ash heap of history. Nahhhh.... some things are best left in the past and simply move forward and try to write something new, something a bit more modern, a bit more hip and on target for the music scene we have going these days.

As far as the song in it's current state.... If you want to update it for old times sake, that's fine. Or.... you could use the idea and concept in it to write a new song from that old one. The story told is a good one. So start from that point and rewrite the song, update the melody and structure to what you hear being used today, and see what happens. My suggestion would also be to locate a local NSAI (Nashville Songwriters Assn) meeting group and present it to them for more input on this tune.

Anyway, that's my take on the question you asked....."should it just go back to the attic archives?" Perhaps not..... you can work this up into a fitting arrangement, perhaps a few structural/chord changes and have something your friend will enjoy hearing.

Thanks Rob and Ann-Marie for taking time to give your insight. I appreciate your kindness on commenting on the vocals. I like your recommendation of the B4 and will play with that idea some when I am working on the song in Real Band.

Charlie,

I did not have the amount of time necessary for an in-depth previously (when you first put this up)... You have already addressed some things in your answers. But I'll reiterate some of those things just to be complete...

And this is with the understanding that you do not really intend to pitch this to today's market - that the intent is to end up with a good listenable song regardless of "marketability"...

The intro is long. Always a bad thing in a pitch session - and I get that that is not the intent - but that goes for any audience. Musicians might like long intro, but the average listener does not.
You have a nice spot at about :13 that would make a good start. When the steel starts...

For this type song, I would start with a finger pick guitar - bring the strum in later...in the 2nd verse - with the fp still going..

You have already noted the drums. They should definitely be a stick until the chorus. I would actually leave them out until the second verse. would also leave the steel off until then. Use for the intro, drop it in the first verse, bring it back in the 2nd..

You drop the steel when you hit the chorus, so you need something to replace it. An arp electric - or maybe the dreamy - it fits in a lot of places. An alternative would be a subtle rhythm piano...

Your fiddle lead is nice but needs to come up just a little.

You have the steel in the final chorus. It might be nice to pair that with a piano at that point (instead of the arp in the first chorus)...

Overall, I think you've done a good job on this. I do think it needs to "build" some as it goes to keep your listeners interested.

floyd

Hi Alan, with all you guys have on your table, I really appreciate you finding time to offer your suggestions. As a country guitarist for 45 years, I have a vintage Gibson guitar you would probably enjoy spending a few hours with. It's actually a prototype and was featured on Antiques Roadshow several years ago.

My wife and I had a similar conversation about the opening lines and the redundancy. We decided at the time since Rudy wrote the lyrics as a personal gift rather than a song that would be intended to be professionally produced, it would be desirable to retain the original lyrics as much as possible and concentrate on the music. I totally agree with you though and may decide to update that first verse as the redundancy is so obvious.

I have completed some editing and revisions in BIAB, corrected the drums and I'm ready to move the song over to Real Band and I will try out some electric guitars. Good suggestion.

Your observations and comments were very helpful and much appreciated.

Dani, thanks for dropping by. Keep a lookout for the final version, there are some great suggestions coming in - I think it can only get better.

Pgfantastic, thanks for listening. I think your signature is so appropriate and inspirational.

Hi Charly,

for the occasion it was written this song is
appropriate. Play it to Rudy. He will like it.
And you have got a lot of advice to tweak it.
But what for?
YOU must like it. I do.

Guenter

Hi Guitarhacker, thanks for your comments and I did not find them to be too harsh. In fact, you nailed it. I agree with everything you say. Regarding NSAI, Rudy is a member. He is a member of many professional songwriting organizations. Professionally, he collaborates with other songwriters a lot. As Alan noted in his post, he sometimes uses cliches. In fact, we tease him in calling him the king of cliches. He scours papers, billboards, restaurant menus and nearly everything else to find little sayings or cliches as song idea. Through collaboration, his professional work is at higher standard than this particular piece which he probably wrote in just a few minutes those years ago when he had the idea to write something about my daughters distress at finally leaving the nest. I think I posted after your comment that this song's audience will be family and friends and not pitched for today's country audience. I originally missed the mark on my musical decisions and just put this up on the forum for members to listen and offer suggestions before I complete the project.

I appreciate your comments.

Great suggestions Floyd. I'll spend some time auditioning electrics and FP guitars. I like the idea of shortening the intro. Alan also suggested adding a guitar so that may be a better fit for the chorus than the piano. But then, Rob also suggested adding a B4 Hammond. I'll give both a listen but am leaning to the guitar at this time. Rudy is a big fan of the pedal steel guitar and owns a nice early 60's model fender so I want the steel to be prominent in the song and that is why it originally had the outro length and sparseness of other instruments.

I really want to express my gratitude for you and all the other posters taking time to share your insight and knowledge.

Charlie

Guenter, thanks for stopping by and listening. I do like the song and it is somewhat sentimental to me due to how it originated in the first place. I have received some great suggestions and tips and I'm getting excited about making some changes and hearing the final result.

"...why it originally had the outro length and sparseness of other instruments."

I liked the outro - and its sparseness... I hope you keep that...

Hi Charlie. I'm a late listener for this one and what an amazing lot of comments you have got!
My choice for the song would be a very sparse beginning building slowly as the song develops then fading again at the end. Reduced drum volume on the loud bits and somehow tighten up the song to about 3 minutes. Aiming for a sweet sentimental feel. Hope you have fun with all the suggestions! Cheers.

Thanks Floyd. Yes, I'm keeping the outro. I chose #1765 guitar but it has a ringing that I am trying to eq out now. I also corrected the drums and lowered them and brought up the fiddle in the intro so far.

Thanks for stopping by RichMac. Yes, It's a blessing so many talented folks have offered tips and suggestions and I appreciate them all.

Charlie

Charlie, There are some really good melody moments in the vocal/chord progression. I do agree with Greg that there are a few awkward harmony phrases. I also agree with everything floyd had to say re changes. Definitely not a throw away. I enjoyed it. Tom

I like the intro. Has a very Beetles vibe like Across the Universe with your strumming acoustic guitar and the heavy snare. It works for me. I would keep that vibe going by leaving the snare in for the whole song. Maybe go to the softer side-stick at the bridge?

Then when the harmony vocals kick in I get a Grateful Dead vibe with a sort of asymmetric weaving of harmonies.

I like it. If I were working it, I might try doing away with the fiddle and try auditioning more guitar elements.

There is a lot to like here.

Hell.. I liked it a lot. Esp. the chord changes.

Hi Tommyad, thanks for your comments. I've had a lot of fun trying out some of the good suggestions posted. I hope to upload a revised version tomorrow to showcase some of the changes.

Gruverider, I hope you will post your thoughts on the revision when it is posted. I replaced the strumming intro with a finger-pick guitar intro and it changes the intro pretty dramatically. I'm a fan of alternate tuned acoustics, 12 strings and the high strung acoustic sound so the #1765 guitar matched the melody and chord progression the closet for my ear. I have also placed electric guitars into the choruses.

I agree with those who have suggested there is plenty of room for harmonies but my vocal skills even when enhanced with vocal gadgets will likely be the weakest part of the song.

Charlie

Soolan, thanks so much for taking time to comment. The chords and changes have remained intact through all of the other revisions, instrument swaps and tweaks. I hope you enjoy the final version too.

Charlie

I look forward to it

Charlie
an enjoyable song and some excellent suggestions from Floyd, Herb and Al.
Just have to say I like long intros myself so I will take the suggestions for me as well!!!!

I look forward to the next version also
Alyn

I agree Alyn, this forum has folks with lots of talent and real experience. It is interesting to see how their personal influences result in hearing things differently. In a way, the forum is like an international school of music forum members come from just about everywhere, even M4 Boogaloo. ;=) This discussion has offered suggestions and tips from these experienced, talented people that can help those of us still finding our way with BIAB, mixing and production. Thanks for listening and your kind comments.

hi c_fogle I would bring the vocal up and the drums down a bit could be my system though I enjoyed the song very much thanks for sharing eric

Hi Charlie,

I congratulate you. I enjoyed listening to your work. It's easy to hear that you've spent a great deal time and thought putting this song together.

Ain't Band In A Box amazing! I don't know about you but every time I write a song, I always say "Thank you" to Peter Gannon and PG Music for what they've made possible.

Best wishes,
Noel

Hi Eric,thanks for listening. I am in process of making some changes and corrections and hope to post an updated version this weekend that will fix the drums and vocals and include some other changes that have been suggested.

Hey Noel, thanks for listening and your kind comment. I continue to be amazed and delighted by band in a box and real band. I used band in a box years ago when it first came out, drifted away from it and was motivated by my brother to try it again with version 2013. I loaded onto a desktop computer I had set up just for music and never completed a single song with it.

My brother talked me into upgrading to 2014 version mainly based on the new 'user tracks' feature. I purchased it in late December onto a laptop and have been happily enjoying retirement by returning to music and songwriting. I haven't attempted to create a user track yet but I'm sure I will eventually. Band in a Box has had more than I could need so far. The only inspiration I have had for a User Track is to record something basic with a rare, vintage Gibson Double neck that other users may find unique to use.

Yes, I do thank Dr. Gannon and PG Music for such a solid and creative product but no, if one of my original songs makes me a millionaire, I won't share the money. I will certainly upgrade to the next BB out of gratitude though. ;=)