There are very standard chords and resolutions that BIAB/RB (including Real Tracks) rarely gets right. The example here (in the key of C) is G13b9 - G F B E Ab - with a typical 2-5 application being Dm7 G13b9 Cmaj9. What usually happens is that G13b9 gets automatically replaced by G7b9.

The trick is to recognize the B E Ab(G#) as an E major triad and enter either E/G or E/F. In the latter case of E/F, have the bass play G.

There is a huge array of workarounds like this. Let me know if you want a particular sound, like Cm11b5 (which doesn't formally exist in BIAB's repertoire), and chances are I can get it for you.

Aleck Rand

cool .... on occasion, I run into this. I solve it by enveloping it out or using Melodyne Editor in poly mode to move the one or two offending notes. But not everyone has ME.... so the simple work around is good to know.

BIAB help with chord entry explains that you don't need the shift key to enter chord symbols and quotes '=' for + so you can enter C+7.as an example. My system which is a standard PC doesn't recognize those keystrokes.
I am trying to enter 'E+7#9 and A+7#9 which are not recognized and it just blanks. I don't know any alternative names for the chord. I thought it might be 'Ealt' but I'm not sure. Can you help me with a workaround.

You can enter E7alt in BIAB.

Hi Peter,

Here are several workarounds for you. Open BIAB with the style ZZJAZZ (the simplest all midi style) and then mute everything but the piano. You'll get variations on the sound you want using:

C7#5#9 which gives the same variations as C#9b13 and C7alt.

With the choice, above, you'll hear both #9 and b9. The most consistent results, with #9 and little variation is given by Gb13/C

A nice alternative is Dbmmaj7/C

These can be put together for added color.

That's like seeing the C13b9 as a modal chord of Db melodic minor. The same method can be used to relate just about any chord to any scale in my experience. Especially as you point out if you don't mind entering more than one chord to get the voicings you want.

What band in a box rarely gives you though is effective 'crunch' voicings involving more than one semitone in the voicing. So its hard to do a good Thelonious Monk pastiche IMO.

What's needed is a way of compiling a non-chord tone slash bass note like A7#9/Ab for example so that it pays in the piano part as well as the bass. This happens in Jammer Pro the 'other' accompaniment software which is still ahead of BIAB in terms of chord voicing and general midi tweaking of parts.

I've been campaigning for these features to be included in BIAB for years with no effect.
I think the reason is that BIAB's customer base has looked at Real Tracks as a one-stop solution for their accompaniment needs in genres which are less harmonically challenging in any case. This isn't a criticism just an observation.

Regards


Alan

Thank you all for the suggestions, it will give me plenty to think about.

But no-one from BIAB has explained why they give the key entry strokes for C+7 as an example but it doesn't produce the chord. Not on my system anyway

It's C7+

Placing the + after the 7 makes the + sign less ambiguous. Otherwise, someone might think the + applies to the 7, making a major seventh. I never use plus signs for this reason, but I know many people do use them.

C7#5 will get you the same thing. #5 by itself is a recent addition in BIAB, so it does not show in the list of chord types you see by right-click, Chord Builder, but it works in newer versions of BIAB.

Hi Alan,

Whether or not a style incorporates the slash note into the piano depends on the style. Real Tracks are not the place to look. I entered A7#9/G# in the ^=WNT_B style, muted all the other instruments, and then looked at the piano notation. Sure enough, every so often G# appears. The nice thing about MIDI is the ease in which one can copy-past-modify voicings. The down side is that this incorporation does not occur in every style.

But enough of that. You say there is a better accompaniment software than BIAB, this Jammer? Must check that oot.


With kind regards,

Aleck

Several of us had Jammer, but they haven't updated it in almost a decade. There are some good sounds and features, but it's nowhere near as capable as BIAB. I think he probably meant to say this one feature is better, rather than the whole program. It must be eight years since I even started Jammer. It's not even installed on my current music computer, whereas I use BIAB almost every day.

Hi Aleck and Matt

BIAB is of course the better program overall. Jammer has the flexibility over chord voicings with it's user-defined voicing tables and the above-mentioned feature.

Any pattern in BIAB with a C4 midi note will play the alternate slash bass note if you've assigned one.

I'm currently working on a different chord template for BIAB with just the root (C5 midi note)and flat seventh (Bb 5)along with the C4 midi note. You have to specify no embellishments and the transpose only setting for the patterns.

This gives you the ability to define any Major or minor 7th interval over any bass note. With that you can have any three note chord not currently supported in BIAB. These are the triads based on major/minor seconds and/or seconds with any other interval.

To get a fourth note simply bounce the chord track to the melody channel and treat it as a melody to be harmonized by the low root melody harmony feature. (you need a second chord sheet for this of course)

Regards

Alan

Re: Jammer

Thanks for clearing things up Matt.

Aleck

Aleck, I think they used to have a demo, so you could hear for yourself.

Alan, that sounds fascinating. Now, if you had that working, how could you enter a chord in BIAB that wasn't a supported type, even if your MIDI mask could interpret it?

And, if you could enter the chord, any RealTracks would just stop playing for that chord, yes? I recall in the earliest days of RealTracks when I wrote a mMaj7, the jazz piano RealTracks would just stop playing. Fixed now, of course, but the point is that if they didn't record a RealTrack player playing the specific chord, BIAB just ignores it.

Hey Lads,

You know what would be really cool: If BIAB could expand the idea of slash chords to include not just slash notes but slash triads like C/Db(triad) or Cm/Bbm(triad). Two things to consider

(1) The above are very hip sounds without equivalents - at least it seems so at first glance - in BIAB.

(2) I've been convinced for ages (and probably many have thought about it) that this generalized slash notation would take the fat out of chord names like Dbmaj13#9#11 and possibly make redundant the concept of "upper structure triads" that they sell (or used to) at Berklee College of Music.

Of course, nothing would surprise me less to hear that this extended slash system has existed for years and is part of conventional jazz education. In any case, this generalized notation shouldn't present great difficulties for implementation in BIAB.

The more I think about it, the more I think PG should seriously entertain the idea. How do you get an idea like this across to the powers at PG?

Aleck

Aleck, put a post in the Wishlist. I will certainly give it a +1. This request has been mentioned before but never in great numbers.

My brother was aware of slash triads when he studied at Berklee in the mid-60s (when they called it the Berklee School of Music) but I don't know what they teach now (except that it's probably based on some mode a tritone away from where I think it should be).

Matt

I think my voicing plan would only work for midi. I've always thought that BIAB would be better going down the 'improved midi' route than the 'done deal' of Real Tracks. Several years ago the latter seemed like the best bet. Since then midi synths and samplers have improved markedly and even now BIAB is doing 'super midi' .

How would my voicing template work for an unsupported chord? Well its not so much a way of playing unsupported chords (although it can do that) as getting different textures based on seconds for the usual chords.
For example in my system you could have a CMaj chord as Fmaj7/C. The F maj7 would be simply a minor second E- F over the root C. so that would be a voicing of C E F. If you wanted a fourth note then make your chord track into the melody to be harmonized.

Then a second chord sheet could have B/C adding the B (Maj7th) to the 1, 3, 4 chord using a low root harmony plus melody (move the low root up an octave or two) so you now have a voicing for CMaj of 1, 3, 4, 7.

Every time you input a Maj7 or Min7 in this system you're thinking primarily of an interval.

The benefits are better control over the top line and bass voices in the chord giving you the ability to do linear harmony with contrary motion for example. Also fewer notes in the chord and fewer thirds tend not to lock the soloist in to the harmony so much.

Moving the chord part to the melody channel gives the flexibility of doubling the chord part to thicken the texture with the Melody Harmony if necessary and also the ability to switch the register up or down.

Sure its more work and looks daunting at first but there's really not much to it in terms of work flow once you get used to it. Until we get easier control over the notes output by BIAB's chord parts, I feel its the best way to go beyond tertian harmony and fourths in BIAB

Regards

Alan

Aleck

There's a recent thread on the polychords you suggest posted by Tonnie who's another real pro BIAB user like yourself.

It would be worth bumping that thread by adding a plus 1 to his post or even do a new thread on it for added effect. I'll certainly be supporting it.

I feel exactly as you do about the tertian spellings which don't always give you the full voicing anyway even if you can find an inversion that approximates the polychord. Besides when a soloist sees a chord symbol of Chord X /Chord Y they are more likely to respond to it differently than if it was spelt C13b9#11b13 or whatever.

Regards

Alan

Are you picking on my favorite chord, C13b9#11b13?

Wow, there's hardly a wrong note to be had soloing over that! b5, 5, #5, 6 and minor 7. Also both minor and major third. Cool.

It's my favourite chord too, it covers a multitude of sins! You wouldn't want every chord in the sheet looking like though!!

Regards

Alan

Alan and Matt,

This is too much of a coincidence to be true! MY favorite chord is C13b9#9#11b13 but, to prove the point, I see it in Alan's formulation as Chord X /Chord Y where X = Ab (major triad) and Y = Gbm7, i.e., Ab/Gbm7.

Let's check it on the piano. With the left hand play the inversion Db E Gb A for the slash chord Gbm7 and the inversion C Eb Ab in the right. Actually, you can use any inversions you like.

Listen to that killer chord. No wonder it's a fave.

Reading from left to right, we have Db E Gb A C Eb Ab, which in the key of C works out to

b9 3 #11 13 ROOT #9 b13.

The fifth and dominant seventh are suppressed. The bassist can play any of these notes, but C, Gb and Ab seem like preferred choices.

Aleck