I use a small Mackie Mixer with an M-Audio 2496 soundcard in my PC and a Ketron SD2 in the loop. I am thinking of upgrading the soundcard to one by RME or Lynx. It's $500-700 so it needs to make a big difference for me to justify it. (I'm hoping to find one used on eBay.) Anyone have any thoughts? I would consider a USB interface like the RME Babyface as long as the Ketron would work with it. Or any other USB interface as long as it has MIDI for the Ketron. I like what I read about Apogee Duet and UAD Apollo but they're MAC only.

Not enough information. How many inputs do you need? Are you recording one track at a time, or multitracking? Are you married to your Mackie mixer or would you prefer to mix in software? What recording DAW are you using?

Just offhand, I would lose the mixer (noisy), but if you can supply more info you will get better answers. There are a ton of great USB interfaces out there now, for a lot less than RME.


Regards,

Bob

BOLD: first thing I thought of too.

OP...unless you need more inputs the Audiophile 2496 is a quite adequate, above average audio interface.
I've had one for years which is still residing in my old XP DAW but that machine is retired as I'm on an updated DAW with Sonar X3.
I'm still using the now dated Delta44 which works fine for me.

As suggested by 90db I'd mix in the box with the DAW software you are using.
I have a mixer (Berhinger 1622FX)but it's just a glorified patch bay and only use the inputs to track and do not use it in the mixing stage...that's all done in the box.

Good luck....

If you're upgrading for better sound.... the card won't do it. Digital is digital whether it's in a factory chip of the most expensive studio pro interface.

the audio converters and amps may be a bit better but in most cases they are very similar so don't really expect much there either in the way of improvement. Sound improvement comes from the speakers and the amps mainly. However.... in a studio, you're not necessarily looking for "good sound"... just accurate sound. (another thread for another day)

The main reason most folks do upgrades is for the features..... more inputs, more outputs, sometimes the DSP FX, the preamps, not PCI based, etc.....

With the M-Audio 2496 you have a fairly decent 2 in 2 out PCI card. But it is limited and PCI.

I'll assume that you are seeking more inputs and the RME will certainly raise your channel limits considerably. That's a very nice interface. I like that it's NOT a PCI card based interface but either firewire or USB. That makes connecting more mics and inputs so much easier than reaching behind the computer to do things. I started with a PCI card based interface and wouldn't go back for anything in the world right now.

Personally, I would go with the FW or USB external interface option... if for no other reason than the convenience and portability.

Thanks, folks, for the quick replies. I only record vocals and harmonica, one track at a time. All else is MIDI, RT or amp sim. I don't need the extra inputs of the RME, I was just looking for better sound. There are Lynx owners who will tell you the sound quality is significant and will improve mixes. The mixer being noisy is something I've considered, but again, there are people out there who supposedly use them with good results. The mixer is convenient, I think reaching behind the PC a lot would be a pain. OTOH, it'd be a plus to mix with the DAW only. And I'd rather not lose my Ketron, although I've considered that as well. It's possible I just want to sound like I have a world-class studio full of vintage analog hardware and that is unrealistic. I have a Soundclick site but it's only instrumentals, I don't want my songs on the Net yet.

http://www.soundclick.com/bobmillard

Stupid question, the 2496 doesn't have XLR jacks, do I just use adapter cables?

Thanks again, guys, saved me a lot of money. I just googled mixer noise and I have a lot to learn there.

I would lose the Mackie mixer. They are notoriously noisy, and if you get an interface with good preamps, you won't need it. If you're only recording one track at a time, you might want to look at something from Focusrite, like this one:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Scarlett6i6

The Focusrite pres are excellent, and this comes with a nice software bundle, including a software mixer. The Focusrite drivers are also very good, far superior to M-Audio (I have both).

Depending on your goals/needs, that unit may even be overkill. Here's a good article on interfaces that might be helpful:

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/audio-interface-buying-guide/

You might also be able to find some of these units on the used market. People trade up quite a bit as new gear comes out.


Regards,

Bob

OK...since you don't need the extra inputs... here's my recommendation.


Lose the mixer totally. In my studio, I have NO mixer that is not inside the computer in software.

Buy a USB based, external interface that runs native ASIO (no wrappers or codecs), has phantom power, XLR & 1/4" inputs on each channel with nice audio preamps, and midi input as well. The number of outputs can vary but generally, the more, the better off you are. An interface like this will set you back around $250. Look at Focusrite and some others of similar quality. I love and use focusrite.

Spend the money to get a copy of a software mastering bundle. Ozone is highly recommended. It takes your straight up raw tracks from live and BB performances and puts the kick and punch as well as the sparkle in them. This is one of my "can't live without this" software packages. This alone will transform the sound quality of your mixes when properly used.

Last thing is, I didn't see where you mention the monitors you are using. I might have missed it..... but the monitors are critical. If you are using small speakers.... I've seen 3" drivers in some models sold as "studio monitors", then an upgrade to 5" or even 8" drivers and a sub 10" ...all self powered would be a nice improvement to make.

Doing those 3 things will move your sound quality up the ladder several steps.

Rather than spending the money on the RME that you really don't need, I'd make a list of things that will move you forward and start buying them one at a time as money allows. I'd start with the quality interface, then studio monitors, then Ozone. A thousand bucks will get all 3 and leave you some change to pick up an inexpensive set of headphones or a condenser mic.

Thanks so much again, guys!! I was originally going to post this to gearslutz, but I'm glad I posted here instead. I've been looking at the Scarlett for a while, so you've got me sold on that now. My Ketron SD2 will fit with it fine, correct?

I have KRK V4 monitors. I think they are giant-killers. But I would love Genelecs. I don't have a treated room, but I make a 'vocal booth' of sorts with futons. I won't go the Owens-Corning route cuz I got a somewhat green place. (I just learned about something called Applegate Cotton Acoustic Armor, gotta look into it.) I would love to get bass traps for the corners, and some panels.

It'll be hard pulling the money out of my wallet for a pricey plug-in bundle, but as Herb describes it, that sounds like exactly what I'm seeking. Sparkle, that's what I'm not hearing right now in my stuff. Just do it, I gotta tell myself.

Again, guys, terrific help!!

'Sparkle"? Your mixes sound fine to me. Do you have any mastering software (Ozone, etc.)? That will get you some sparkle.
Also, what mic are you using? I believe that the mic is more important than the mic pre.

And when you said:

"It's possible I just want to sound like I have a world-class studio full of vintage analog hardware and that is unrealistic."

There are a ton of plugins out there that can simulate just about every piece of vintage gear you can imagine.

BTW, what brand of chromatic are you playing? It sounds very sweet.

I hope I didn't insult you by telling you anything that you already know. Just trying to help.



Regards,

Bob

On the K-SD2.... I'm not familiar with that unit. I use all software based synths and all my sounds are in the samples. I would assume there is a way to make this work as it does connect with USB.... so it should work fine.

Monitors look OK but small.... they will do for now. No need to put them near the top of the gear list yet.

Sound treatment is fine if you can afford it, have a dedicated room, and your wife doesn't complain. My room is not treated. I use a spare room and it's also my business office and storage room. Carpet on the floor, acoustic ceiling, and furniture. And my wife insists that it remain a "normal" room.

Ozone: You can download a fully functional trial version (10 day trial) at this site: https://www.izotope.com/support/product-downloads/ozone-5/

However, be prepared at the end of that, if not sooner, to spring for the cost of the software unlock key....it sounds that good. Ozone is one of those things you will never regret buying.

Most of the tracks you record and the ones that get rendered out of BB & RB are raw waves. they sound OK but they lack definition. Ozone makes it easy to clarify the high end, and the bottom and everything in between. It's like watching a movie in B&W and then pushing a button and it becomes full color.

I agree with just about everything above - particularly using a mixer unnecessarily in your signal chain.

One small point of disagreement - in a microphone signal chain, it's my opinion to be as judicious about the preamp as the microphone - if you have a decent microphone to begin with and this can mean a Shure SM57/58.

Judicious meaning get a pre-amp that can boost your mic input cleanly. Right now you are depending on a device, the Mackie, that has a bunch of other things on it's task list besides the microphone pre-amp.

You might be able to score a nice mic pre-amp for a couple hundred dollars that you can connect to your 2496 and be all set. As a fellow, mostly one-track-at-a-time recordist, this is all I needed for a very long time.

I recently upgraded to a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 interface which is more convenient than what I had been using, and with very stable drivers, and with decent gain without noise.

I quickly listened to a few of your soundclick tracks. What exactly are you looking to improve? They sound decent. One thing I would do is lose the count-in on each of the songs. "Minor Mood" is the only one of the 4 or 5 that I listened to in which the harp sounds quite a bit more muddy than the rest of the BIAB supplied tracks. The harp is missing some high-end.

What type of microphone(s) are you using? And why does Minor Mood sound so much different than the others? It almost sounds like you have recording room issues going on - there's some notes which are considerably louder than others. For example, the note at the end of the phrase at 2:01-2:03 or so is probably 10 dB louder than other notes in the same song. What is your recording technique, room, etc.?


On some of the songs, it sounds like you are using a Green Bullet mic, like "Ivory Ike" which is cool, but it likely doesn't have high frequency response that you might be looking for. It has that great overdriven sound, but if you look at the mic specs: http://cdn.shure.com/user_guide/upload/443/us_pro_520dx_ug.pdf you can see that the high frequency response has almost a 'brick wall' falloff right at 4 kHz. Sparkle happens above 4 kHz.

As to using a Scarlett with the Ketron - you might have to run the Ketron from the MIDI out of the Scarlett. It's possible your computer won't like two different USB audio devices in play at the same time. So that might be a change from what you are used to.

The Ketron should receive MIDI from the USB and generate audio into the sound card.
As mentioned; the choice of preamp can make a pretty big difference in the end result. It may not be 'real apparent' (sometimes just barely noticeable) but in the end it can matter.

I'm another who believes in Ozone (or equivalent). I want to hear it with all the polish sometimes. When I can't it can be frustrating. This is only true once you learn to use it. If you don't have it you won't know what you're missing, so if $$ is tight you may want to avoid trying it. <grin>

Another +1 for Ozone. Something else to consider is that they make a companion product called Alloy that is designed to be used while mixing, so you can be inspired by 'sparkle' while still developing a song. Ozone requires substantially more computer resources and is designed to be used after the song is done, while mastering.

Thanks yet again, folks! Especially for taking the time to listen to my instrumentals on Soundclick. I can't even get friends and family to listen to them. I use a vintage stick mic, Shure 533sa, for harmonica, it is similar to the SM58. I wish I had a Green Bullet or JT-30 with a vintage element, but they're $300. New GBs and JT30s are junk. The chromatic harmonica is a Hohner CX-12. Harp players usually cut treble and add mid-bass. I didn't realize 'sparkle' was an actual term applying to > 4khz. I just thought it was a vague term for 'better.'

To my ears, everybody else's stuff sounds better produced than mine. 90 db, is that the RealTrack horn section on "I'm your Man?" I've been trying to find a way to use that RT. Very nice. Herb, I definitely like the sound of your tracks, and you've made the Top Ten on SC, that's pretty good. And Scott, you sound radio ready to me. I'm not able to listen to tracks and say what frequencies need attention as you apparently can. I don't know why Minor Mood sounds different. It's one of the oldest tracks I have, I may not have had enough sense back then to pan the Real Tracks. Or I could've used a plugin and done more harm than good. Classes in mixing would be nice, that's not going to happen either. It's good to know most of you feel that I'm somewhere in the ballpark with my mixes, that is encouraging. I will give Ozone a trial run. Do most of you use the package that sells for $200 or Ozone Advanced that goes for $$$? Herb, what do you use?

I think I've had the hardest time getting vocals to sound good and fit in the mix. I don't want my songs on the Net at this point, but I have some throwaway tunes, I can put one on Soundclick. I use Waves Renaissance Vox and Ambience on vocals, I've never been thrilled with the results but my singing ain't much to write home about either.

The only thing I need to clarify at this point is if the Ketron will work with the Scarlett, or if I will be losing some capability by losing the mixer. Maybe Mac is around, he's the one who sold me on the Ketron a while back.

Great thread, thanks to all for input!

The Scarlett has two line inputs, two mic inputs, four outputs and a MIDI in and out. The mic inputs can be used for a mics and/or an instrument like a guitar. The two line inputs would be used for your Ketron outs. The MIDI in and out can be used for your Ketron MIDI in and outs.

The only thing that I can see that you will lose is your mixer EQs but THAT IS NOT AN ISSUE. There are a ton of better EQs VSTs out there, many that are free.

Thus the answer to your question is no you will not lose a thing.

rharv, if he goes with a USB sound card, are you sure that he can run USB to both the Ketron and a USB sound card? I've not had good luck with that. I use the sound card for both midi and audio, and then connect my midi stuff through the sound card.

Bob, classes in mixing ARE in the cards. There's a great freebie class from Berklee College of Music online that you should take. It will help you get your head around the whole process.

https://www.coursera.org/course/musicproduction

It starts on October 13. It's free. Did I mention it's FREE? It's very worth the time and effort. Do the assignments to the best of your ability. It will stretch your computer use as some of the assignments involve making videos of your process/assignments. But lots of help in the forums there. Oh, it's FREE.

It's easily worth $1000 if you are just starting to wrap your head around audio production. But again, it's f r e e .

-Scott

If he has problems a PCI to USB card can be purchased for less than $20 USD. I have one in my computer and it works great because all of the USB ports are powered ports.

Another excellent, FREE, source for mixing is Play With Your Music. org . It is self paced and features the use of tracks to two of Peter Gabriel songs, Sledgehammer and In Your Eyes.

The course is divided into modules that teach techniques such as critical listening, figuring out song structure, recording techniques, etc. Each module has some excersises that help reinforce using and developing skills.

Since the course is self paced you can stay in one module as long as you desire so when you advance you really feel like you understand the information.

The online community is a good mixture of beginners, professional sound engineers, producers and mix engineers so whatever questions you have receive good answers.

I've taken the music production course Scott recommends and it is a great course. The six weeks fly by and you will be amazed at what you learn.

Play With Your Music is just as good but has a different focus. Introduction To Music is an introduction designed to get you started and realize the possibilities. Play With Your Music is more about how to approach and accomplish mixing.

Both courses offer essential information and compliment each other.

I see I said it that way.

The audio device should be able to handle the MIDI to Ketron connection, as well as the audio connection coming back from he Ketron, so the Ketron does not need its own USB.

That was my point; MIDI goes out to Ketron, audio comes back in to soundcard.

But yes, I have run MIDI USB devices at the same time as using a USB audio device.
I have not seen that as a problem.

Scott and Jim,

Thanks, those both look great. A friend of mine took chord-scale theory at coursera.org, Gary Burton was the instructor! I didn't know they had a mixing course as well, that's perfect. I do like courses that let me go at my own pace, so the other course looks good as well.

Lots of good information keeps coming, thanks again to all!

Everybody else's mixes sound better.... it's probably psychological for the most part but.... as you learn to mix and produce things will definitely turn around. With time and effort, it's not hard to produce nice sounding mixes.

I'd rather have a top ten on the Billboard....

Classes in mixing are not necessary. I never had any. Simply mix, mix, mix and then mix some more. Not only your stuff but grab some other folks stuff and mix that. There are mix contests going on all the time that post up free tracks for download..... grab them and even if you don't get in the contests, mix the tracks for more experience. POST your music in the forums for the software you use. I like to post in the more "technical" forums.... For example, Sonar has a songs forum for users of the Cakewalk line of products and the folks there are focused on the recording aspect of the music. Good ears, astute observations, and great feedback that helps you improve your craft. The User Showcase here in PG can also be used the same way..... but you probably need to ask for specific "Mixing" critiques to get in depth analysis of your production and mixing chops.

You asked what I use. I use Ozone 3 and Ozone 4. I haven't upgraded nor have I considered Alloy. I DL'd the trial of ALLOY and found it pretty similar to O3 & O4. Ozone has presets based on numerous scenarios for instruments and vocals that will give you a great starting point so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Most of my custom presets are tweeks made from one of the O4 presets that I saved.

One bit of advice I will offer: Less is more. Most of my tracks are recorded and remain dry. I use buss groups in Sonar and that's generally where I place the plugins I use. The master buss also has plugs that effect the entire mix..... generally one of the O4 presets and a light Studioverb2 (cakewalk) reverb. Vocals tend to get an O4 preset for vox and occasionally verb. Instrument tracks often just get some EQ and nothing else.

It's better IMHO to have a clean vocal performance that shows some warts rather than to try to cover it and hide behind a bunch of FX. It's when you can clearly hear the vocals, that you can work on getting better. Melodyne is a neat fix for vocals. You can easily fix the pitchy parts and since it shows you the "blobs" as they call it, you can learn to sing better because you can actually "see" some of the bad habits you are using to try to "fake" being better.

Melodyne Editor and Ozone 4 are my main 2 fx plugs. Beside them, I use a couple of cakewalk default fx for EQ & verb. But in reality, that's about all I really use on a consistent basis in my music.

The main thing is to mix, study, get feedback and mix some more.

Hope that helps a bit.

(quote not verbatim)


Yeah, that's the BIAB horn section.


Regards,

Bob

Just to clarify, Alloy isn't supposed to sound different than Ozone; it's only supposed to work differently. Alloy is good for use while mixing because it's light on computer resources. Ozone is better used on mastering a final stereo audio file.

In our world..... it doesn't really matter how things work so much as how it sounds. So, if it doesn't sound any different..... why bother to get it if you have Ozone?

That was my main issue with Alloy. I didn't hear any difference worth paying the $200+ cost of entry so I simply passed on the deal and removed the demo. To someone who didn't have Ozone, perhaps it would be a fine deal.

Why? That's a fair question. It may not be clear from reading Izotope's description, but it becomes clear when you use them in a larger multitrack project. You can put Alloy on each track of a mix if you want to. Ozone will overload your CPU after being loaded on just a few tracks. If you only use Ozone, you can apply it destructively a track at a time but it's nice to be able to adjust sounds on the fly, non destructively, during playback of a full mix. Alloy is for mixing. Ozone is for mastering.

Smaller footprint ....sounds reasonable.

I use a workaround and place Ozone in busses. I set up a vox buss and use it there. Not as precise as one instance per track.... but in most cases, for my purposes, it really doesn't have to be. Often, all the BGV's will be treated generally the same way, so a buss instance works for me.

Aside from having a computer that I have never been able to choke with plugins..... I tend to have around 6 to 8 plugs and rarely more than 10 to 12 in a huge project. The majority of those are cake defaults and very light on the processing end of things. I know Ozone and Melodyne are the "big ones" and sometimes have 2 or 3 O4's in the project. Melodyne is always applied destructively to the tracks immediately after the work with it is accomplished.


But, yes, I can see how Alloy might work for some folks in that manner.

I'm closing in on a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 on eBay. There are plenty there, I should be able to get one for $150 or less. I'm also looking at Sony Sound Forge Pro 11 because it includes Ozone plus Nectar Elements. However the main reason Sound Forge Pro is so attractive to me is that Sony Acid is my DAW, I know it has its critics but I've been using it for eight years and I know the interface well. I've tried to learn RealBand or Reaper but it just ain't gonna happen. I do use Realband for certain tasks, I just don't know it well.

Sony Acid is a terrific DAW. Underrated, I think. I used it for years. Very intuitive and easy to work with.

I switched interfaces about a year ago - Focusrite Scarlett 8i6. It is nice, but I came close to sending it back... I had recorded using 16 bit prior to that (a Gina20 PCI interface) with no problems. When I hooked up the Scarlett, the recordings were awful - noise, noise, noise... spent hours trying to figure out why - email Focusrite, searched the internet, hours, frustration... and finally came across an old forum post somewhere that mentioned having problems with 16 bit.

Changed Acid to record at 24 bit, and the problem went away. A bit perturbed that that was nowhere to be found on the Focurite site, but....

Haven't had any problems since....

Just a heads-up...

<Changed Acid to record at 24 bit, and the problem went <away. A bit perturbed that that was nowhere to be found on <the Focurite site, but....

Thanks, Floyd, might save me many hours. I tried 24/96 briefly but I had some problems and just went back to 16/44 without troubleshooting. But I'd like to get into 24/96, hopefully it will work fine for me with Scarlett as it did for you.

He didn't say 24/96 he just said 24.

24/48 or 24/44.1 are also viable choices, and preferred for many. My guess is Acid defaulted to one of these two settings.

Yes, I typically record in 24/44.1 for the extra headroom with little file space penalty.