Hi. I have lots of things to say. I hope this is not much trouble.

First off, I am new here. Hi.

Second and very important, I am not a sp@mmer! I signed up in another music forum earlier today, posted my question and got banned on the spot with a very curt message that accused me of sp@mming. I read that forum's rules and I don't believe I violated any rule. If I'm violating any rule here, please tell me what the problem is! I have read them, and I think I'm ok.

Now let's talk about music.

I am a beginner in this whole business, now I
need some mixing equipment and I have rather specific immediate requirements, but those requirements are likely to change in the future so I thought I would ask the opinion of more experienced people.

I like to make music at home, it's a new hobby and now I want to record my material. I play the piano/keyboard on a MIDI controller, and I sing. The only instruments I have are the controller hooked up to a computer, two tablets and my voice. I want to be able to monitor and record all those input sources (voice is usually added later, overdubbing) at the same time.

Again: I have a computer and two tablets (other sources might be added later), all of them with regular 1/8" TRS output jacks, generally meant for headphones. I want to be able to mix, monitor and record all those input sources at the same time.

I might want to buy a proper microphone, which I don't have yet. I currently record my voice on a Tascam DR-05 recorder, which is very basic and also has a regular 1/8" TRS output jack and kind of works as a poor man's audio interface when connected to the computer's mic input (the pink jack). I use Audacity to mix sources, I have been testing Ardour, but it seems to me that Audacity is a lot better.

What I like about that recorder is that it is extremely sensitive and will pick up every tiny detail of my voice. What I DON'T like about that recorder is that it is extremely sensitive and will pick up just about any kind of extraneous noise, no matter how small, including a lot of "air" noise if you know what I mean. I have to be in a very, very silent room with it.

That is my current, very amateurish setup. I know it's bad and I seek advice on what to buy to improve my workflow. I currently have no way to mix and monitor multiple sources, and that is seriously dragging me down. I am currently considering buying one or more of these items, which you might disagree with (if you do, let me know!!!):

- - Tascam DP-008ex.
http://tascam.com/product/dp-008ex/

I suppose I can mix, monitor and record multiple sources with it, but I am not too sure yet.

Pros: it's small, compact, I can carry it around, including to the studio where I rehearse with a band (playing drums). I want to be able to record the rehearsal sessions, too. I've been reading way too many manuals over the last few days, all the info now is a mess in my head, but anyway, I believe this device also has a metronome, which would be quite useful.

Cons: it's not a mixing board. Which brings me to my next idea...

- - Behringer Xenyx mixing board
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Category/Mixers.aspx?s=G100

Probably a cheap to mid-range one. I can't afford the high-end ones.

Pros: it's a full fledged mixing board that I suppose will meet my requirements, plus I can use it in future live performances. Not my own performances so much, rather those of my musician friends. I help them on those things quite frequenly and we're often faced with the venue's (usually a pub) crappy or puzzling mixing board. It would be nice to have my own mixing board.

Cons: it's not as portable as the Tascam DP-008ex, but the rehearsal studio has a mixing board already, but then I think I will need a recorder on top of the mixing board, because my DR-05 can't do multitrack. But wait, how many ouptputs does a mixing board have anyway? I've been very confused about multitracking.

The Tascam DP-008ex and a mid-range Behringer Xenyx board cost just about the same in my country. I believe the Behringer mixing board will be very useful, but I'm not so sure of that, and if I buy it, then I will also have to buy a recorder, so however I include that mixing board in my plans, the total cost of my gear will be double, which makes the decision all the more difficult. In that case, I believe I would buy a Tascam DR-40 or a Zoom H5 (both support 4 channels) to complement the mixing board. But then I believe I wouldn't be able to record the multiple inputs in separate tracks... Like I said, I'm confused.

- - Another idea I've had is to buy a Zoom R16:
http://www.zoom.co.jp/products/r16

Pros: it's reasonably portable though not as much as the recorders I have mentioned before. It has a rather impressive host of features (check the product page by yourself). It can be both the recorder and the mixing board in one single piece of kit.

Cons: it's very expensive in my country, twice as much as the Tascam DP-008ex and mixing board combined! Really steep. And I've been told by someone who tested it that the quality of the pre amps is quite disappointing. I don't want to dump a lot of money on it if it's not worth it.

These specific items are what I have in mind, but I am throwing them to the lions here. I am willing to consider alternatives depending on the advice I get. Please don't be afraid to go wild and recommend something completely different. Just bear in my mind that my budget is small.

I know there is a hail of questions in this one single post, but if you want to help, just tell me what you think and just as much as you feel like, and I'll add your ideas to the tons of information I've been reading lately. Beware: I'll read your replies and might ask for further clarification.

Thank you all in advance.

I just record horns so I don't have any relevant advice on your questions at this time, but I wanted to say Welcome to the forums.

very cool... and welcome to the forum here.

Here's how I do this thing called music.

I have a computer that I built running the software I use.
Connected to the computer is a dedicated external audio/midi interface. The midi instruments as well as the mic and guitar processor input to the interface. On the flip side, I have my monitoring speakers connected to the interface outputs so I can hear what I'm doing and complete the mixing.

I use a decent condenser mic. (Rode NT-2A) and yes, it will pick up all the sounds in the neighborhood.... lawn mowers, dogs, trucks, the train, ....I have learned to deal with it. I either wait until the lawn guy is done cutting the neighbor yards, or I can also do some punch in recording where the dog happened to bark at an inopportune time.

ALL my mixing and recording is "IN THE BOX".... in other words, there's no mixer in this studio. It's software based. Starting on the left is my midi keyboard with papers piled up on it. Next is the left side Mackie monitor and not shown is the lava lamp. Computer under the desk.... video monitor on the desk with keyboard and to the right of the monitor is the interface I use. In the cubby hole to the right is my headphone amp, my POD2 guitar processor and one of the Mackie speakers I use for monitoring. Moving further to the right is a stack of amps and a sub. Out of the scene to the right is another guitar amp. In the center on the mic stand is the Rode.



As far as software goes.... The main things are Band In A Box which I use to compose my songs.....And Real Band (both are PG products) which I use to render many of the tracks.

The interface: Yes, you really do need to get one of these..... choose a model that suits your needs.... number of inputs, number of outputs, phantom power, midi, and pre-amps on the audio inputs..... be sure it has pre-amps...and that it can run ASIO. I have a max of 2 live inputs from my interface...and I rarely use them both together. I have my POD2 plugged into both but I'm recording only the left input.



I also use Sonar as my DAW software simply because I know how it works and like how it works. Real Band from PG will also do much of what Sonar does. It's in Sonar that I do my mixing and also add the live instruments that I play as well as record the vocals.

Unless you absolutely need to have a physical mixer in front of you.... don't buy one. Everything is moving in the direction of being "IN THE BOX".... The only reason I could see having a mixer is if you're recording multiple musicians in a live session. For the solo musician in a studio working on song demo's, a set up similar to what I have described above is all you will ever need.

ALL of the music on my web-site music page was recorded in the studio you see in the pics above.

Hope this helps, and if you have further questions or comments, feel free to respond.

Love the picture of the home studio. A real Man-Cave vibe.

Lucm
Welcome to the forum. Herb's detailed advice represents an excellent tutorial on a great configuration.

And you will find that the Lava Lamp (disappointingly missing from Herb's setup) has cemented itself somehow as a Studio 'Must-Have' If you can't get a real one, apparently a picture of one does pretty much the same job.

Best
Trevor

Oh, such a warm reception! I think I'm going to like it here. Thank you all for the nice replies!

I have been researching some more and I have given up on the Tascam mixer/recorder because I don't think it will be good enough for my plans to take over the world. And I have given up on the Zoom R16 portastudio because I think it's too expensive.

I am now trying to decide whether buying a mixing board is going to be a good idea.

While I was reading Guitarhacker's thorough and helpful reply, two things he said stood out in my head:

1) don't buy a mixing board
2) you're *really* going to need an audio interface

Hmmm... I've been queasy about buying an audio interface because I think it's pricey for the little it does. And probably because I don't really understand its purpose. So now I have a couple of additional questions. The first one is stupid, but I'm not afraid to ask:

I have a handheld recorder on a tripod. I place it on the desk, connected to the computer's mic input (the pink jack). My headphones are connected to the computer's audio output (green jack). I launch Audacity or Ardour and press the Record button on the recorder and... I can monitor it! With Bionic Woman grade super hearing, no less. And when I press the Record button on Audacity, it records my environment (yours truly speaking or singing), on top of any other sounds I may have playing on the computer, and I can record both, so I can already mix two inputs with that cheap rigging. MacGyver would be proud.

How is an audio interface different or better than that?

I said it was a stupid question.

Besides, my biggest problem right now is merging inputs. Look at this diagram of a Behringer audio interface (it's a VERY popular brand where I live, that's why I keep bringing it up):



Audio out: I already have that, on headphones. And now it goes into the interface.

Speakers: I don't need that, I prefer headphones so I don't upset my neighbors. So the interface's output will have no use, I guess.

Headphones: I already have that, straight from the computer.

USB in: mmmkay... but why? I'm not getting any benefit from it. I still can't mix and monitor multiple inputs.

I should probably get an audio interface with more inputs then, but yikes, those are really expensive, aren't they. Really discouraging. I could buy another computer with that kind of money. Or a decent 61-key Akai MIDI controller. Or a mixing board, which can mix multiple inputs and perhaps do other things, like... be an audio interface!

I hope my next question is not so stupid... This is the mixing board that I find most attractive so far:

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/Q1202USB.aspx

Would that solve my conundrum? Assuming I don't understand what an audio interface is good for and you know I don't but I promise I will, would that mixing-board-slash-audio-interface do the job? Wouldn't that also let me have plenty of (12 as advertised) simultaneous inputs, not to mention save me plenty of money to buy a lava lamp?

I'm still open to other ideas, please. I really appreciate it.

The Behringer mixer is an audio interface and will work just fine. There are things it does as an analog signal that other interfaces do digitally. It allows you to setup your recording session with effects and record with effects. You can also record without effects and apply those post recording. Some other recorders even in a similar price range offer higher recording bit rate. Some people state they think the mixers produce more floor noise. That has likely been corrected in newer models. I have 24 channel Behringer as well as two Presonus interfaces. The preamps are comparable and I've never noticed any noise advantage of either of Presonus units over the Behringer mixer. Using a mixer and recording the processed signal live is no different than using a digital preset to record over. Many songs are recorded using Presonus, Yamaha, Mackie and Behringer top end digital mixers.

If I were you, I wouldn't buy anything until I had done a lot of reading and had come to a basic understanding of how audio gear works.

Google is your friend.


Regards,

Bob

ABSOLUTELY!!! Read that again....




You need to understand what an audio interface does before you spend a dime on anything.

Essentially, the sound card in your computer is not your friend when it comes to home recording. The audio interface solves that issue. HOWEVER, not all audio interfaces are worthy of the name. Some are junk. Some will make your recording experience effortless..... you gotta know what you're buying.

I am not now, nor have I ever been an advocate of using any of the multi-function hybrid gizmo's that combine an interface with ANYTHING else. They tend to be proprietary in nature and end up being "one-trick-ponies" as the saying goes.

Your interface doesn't just do "a little" bit of something or other.....It is going to be the heart of your studio system. It does a great deal. It allows everything to work properly and in a timely manner, so while it may seem a bit costly, don't be afraid to spend the money to get something good, something that will last you many years and do the job you require of it. I've had my Saffire now through 2 computers and somewhere around 8+ years of recording service. I never regretted buying it. At the time, IIRC, it was around $300.

And yup... you DO NOT need a mixer if the interface has pre-amps in it. I said it before, but I'll reiterate it here..... I do not use a mixer and haven't had one in my studio for many years. I've used them in the past and when I got my interface, I was using one in the same capacity I always used a mixer..... but the sound was distorted. I pulled the Korg D-1600 mixer/recorder out of the signal path and my mic was crystal. I listed the D-1600 on ebay that same day and sold it. I have not looked back since.

Unless you want to have a mixer for looks, to impress your friends, and to see knobs and blinking lights.... nope... you don't need one.

And one last thing... the single most important piece of gear you can purchase for your home studio....



Spare no expense on this item because without it, mixes lose their luster and drive, guitars sound flat and weak, vocalists sing sharp..... and life just isn't quite the same.....

Herb, thank goodness that thing turned up! Songs have the audio quality of a six-transistor radio without it...

Good stuff here guys. I also am an advocate of a good quality audio interface. You all remember what Johnny said when he saw my mixer in my studio. "... what the hell is that doing there?"

Herb (may I call you Herb?), it's not just a matter of showing off to my friends and marveling at blinking lights. It's that I am trying to solve two problems with one tool - if possible. I have felt the need for a mixing board for a while, then I got involved in this home recording thing, and I have found a mixing board that is an audio interface. I thought that would be a good idea, but you really hate mixing boards, dontcha.

OK, the mixing board is on the back burner now. I am researching audio interfaces and I have a new question.

I found two that seemed interesting to me:

1) UMIX1008

http://www.icon-global.com/Audio+Interface_Recording_UMIX1008+Satellite.htm

http://www.streetwisesales.com/product/umix-1008-satellite-usb-audio-interface/

2) M-Audio Fast Track Ultra

http://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-Fast-Track-Ultra-High-Speed/dp/B000Z8U0IY

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may08/articles/fasttrackultra.htm

Uh-oh. It seems that both rely on controlling software and/or proprietary drivers. How much are these things generally dependant on drivers? The reason I ask is that I use Linux, which is never supported. I thought it would be plug-and-play.

Well, I've researched and found the answer to my own question.

Yes, most audio interfaces require proprietary drivers and will NOT work with Linux. That sucks.

But I researched more, a lot more, and found that there are a few cards that work well with Linux, so not all is lost. I've been shopping, choosing and now I have a new temporary decision to entertain for some time. I still have to read more.

I am currently considering these options:

• http://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-interfaces/scarlett-2i2/
  Works well with Linux, but has only two inputs and no MIDI.
  
  
• http://www.lexiconpro.com/en-US/products/omega
  This one costs the same, has eight inputs and MIDI. I think I have a winner!
  
  
• http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/hw/m-audio_fast_track_ultra
  This one has pretty much the same feature set as the second one, but I can only find it used and even used it costs 50 to 80% more.

I found others, but all of them are way too expensive, like the Saffire 40 or some 18-input monster that I definitely cannot afford. I think I'll buy the Omega. What do you think?

I completely gave up on the mixing board, and I'll tell you why for the benefit of any googlenaut who might end up here and read this thread in search of self education.

I found some pretty honest opinion on Amazon and found that the USB audio interface on the Behringer mixing boards can be quite disappointing. For example, the board has 8 or 12 inputs, but I'd only get two 16-bit channels on USB: left and right. And it can't be routed anywhere else on the board. Meh. That's lame.

Besides, I found quite a few reports of units that broke after just a few weeks of use or even units that were already dead on arrival. Well, actually, I met a guy in a bar two weeks ago who was singing and playing his guitar with a Behringer. He said it was brand new and he was very happy with it, except that the effects were not working, but he had to play that night so he would have it serviced after the weekend. I thought that maybe he just had bought a lemon, but after reading all those complaints, I decided I shouldn't bet my money on that brand.

The best of both worlds for you would be to consider the Tascam DP-32. They are rock solid, record 8 simultaneous inputs -XLR or 1/4", one DI, midi in/out, CD recorder, Mixer, 32 tracks + 8 inputs gives a 40 track final mixdown, virtual tracks and bouncing provide nearly an unlimited track count. The software is built in, has more than decent effects, dynamics and amp modules, etc. Plus USB capability for further transfer and processing. Excellent preamps. phantom power, portability, two aux sends/returns. Because of USB, it works seamlessly with BIAB/RB.

No driver or OS issues - I purchased the DP-24 when they were introduced (Mechanically and virtually the same as the DP-32 other than track count) and have never suffered a software crash. Nor did I have any issue with the 2488 unit before that which I had for years.

Setup - You can be recording as quickly as you can get it out of the box, plug it in, insert an SD card, mic and instrument. Very easy and intuitive to use right out of the box. You can be ready before the lead guitarist has tuned up and connected to his pedals.

Here's a link to another current thread in the Off Topic forum. Focusrite interfaces are real popular around here.

Interface Thread

"...Behringer mixing boards can be quite disappointing..."


Now that's funny. I don't care who you are!

Lucm says: "I am a beginner in this whole business, now I
need some mixing equipment and I have rather specific immediate requirements, but those requirements are likely to change in the future so I thought I would ask the opinion of more experienced people."; "I like to make music at home, it's a new hobby and now I want to record my material."; "I want to be able to mix, monitor and record all (my) input sources at the same time.";
But he also says;"I suppose I can mix, monitor and record multiple sources with (the Tascam DP-008) and its Pros: it's small, compact, I can carry it around, including to the studio where I rehearse with a band (playing drums). I want to be able to record the rehearsal sessions, too. The Tascam DP-32/24 series MTR's are excellent field/live venue recorders and meet all of his wishlist needs that a non-mixer computer audio interface does not.

Lucm is also facing possible limitations and issues with linux OS as well as MME/ASIO issues and latency. None of which are issues with the stand-alone Tascam.

I also just noticed at Sweetwater they are pre-ordering an updated DP-24 (DP-24SD) at a very competitive, reasonable alternative price to popular interfaces.

That DP-24SD is nice. Price is nice as well.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP24SD

The audio device Mullet

Those Tascam mini studios seem to be very good indeed, but they're a bit expensive where I live, and my focus has changed a lot since the beginning of this thread. Now I realize that Guitarhacker is absolutely right, I should get an audio interface and focus entirely on the 21st century, home recording approach.

I just can't get over the price tag on these things.

Last time I came here, I mentioned an interface called Omega. Ugh, awful reviews on Amazon! I am very afraid to buy it. Now I might go with the Alesis i2o. I resent the small number of inputs, but at least it's affordable in my area. Everything else is just too-much-money.

If I were you, I wouldn't buy anything until I had done a lot of reading and had come to a basic understanding of how audio gear works.


http://www.amazon.com/Home-Recording-For-Musicians-Revised/dp/0825615003


Google is your friend.


Regards,

Bob

Yup....

Not every interface is a good buy.

You need to look at several things....

1. Be sure it uses ASIO drivers.... the real ASIO and not some sort of codec or proprietary wrapper. If it can run other drivers, that's cool but it must run ASIO.... if not, don't buy it.

2. Be sure it has pre-amps on the audio inputs. Some do, and some don't. If it does, you don't need the mixer.

3. Be sure it can deliver phantom power for condenser mics.

4. Be sure it has the required number of inputs and outputs you either need or want. If you have an eight input interface, but the software you use and only handle 2 active inputs at a time, you are wasting money on that interface.

I don't use Linux but I'm gonna guess that most interfaces will not run fully supported on that OS when they are developed for Win & Mac.



Yes you may.... the comment was intended more as a light hearted joke.... I used to have lots of things with blinking lights and it certainly looked cool and impressive....

And no... I don't hate mixing boards. There's a time and a place for them. However, in the average home studio, where you have one person, working on a song project, and where budgets are tight for buying gear, mixers are no longer needed. Even some of the professional studios are looking at "mixing in the box" and getting rid of the old boards. Yeah, I doubt that all of them will go to strictly "in the box" .... there's always going to be those who love the boards and refuse to change and I'm perfectly fine with that. Some of those boards impart their own color and it's a good thing.

I do, however, have a great disdain for the multi-function gizmo's that combine an interface with anything else. Get a solid interface, (I like M-audio, presonus, focusrite) if you want a mixer, get a good mixer, if you need a guitar processor, get a solid guitar processor and use cables to connect them.

So much to go over. I always focus on exactly WHAT do you want to record?

By that I mean will it be live AUDIO like hanging a mic in front of a guitar cab or you singing or will you be playing a MIDI keyboard using midi cables also? I'm describing two types of recording, live remote stuff like recording a rehearsal with your band and strictly recording stuff at home using your computer.

This alone is tricky for a noob to understand. You can play a regular stage keyboard that has midi connectors on it but you're connecting it to the computer using the audio outputs. That raises the question, how to get the audio into your computer? You can use adapters to get a 1/4" jack from your keyboard to the tiny mini line in plug on the back of your computer. If you don't want to mess with that then you need an audio interface.

Midi is a whole other thing. Midi means you're using your keyboard as a midi controller triggering a softsynth that's been installed in your computer. That means you need an audio and midi interface. Not all interfaces have midi such as mixers that double as interfaces. I've not seen any of those that include midi. Latency is not an issue if you're recording audio but it certainly is when you're working with midi. That's when the interface is critical and the ASIO drivers that come with it.

Forget Linux. There's tons of threads about using Linux as the OS for a home studio. It's so limited that it's barely worth it. That takes us to the next question. PC or Mac and which version of those OS's will you be using?

You need to tell us these things before we begin to talk about what stuff you need to pick up.

Bob

If you're using a Linux based OS on your computer.... the best bet is to buy a dedicated WINDOWS computer for your musical projects.

Plus Lucm states: "Those Tascam mini studios seem to be very good indeed, but they're a bit expensive where I live, and my focus has changed a lot since the beginning of this thread. Now I realize that Guitarhacker is absolutely right, I should get an audio interface and focus entirely on the 21st century, home recording approach.

I just can't get over the price tag on these things. mad "



Even a moderate priced Windows PC and audio interface will easily cost more than a stand alone Multi-track recorder. No linux OS worries, no asio worries, no latency worries. The multi-track will always have enough memory, power and proper drivers to do any task asked of it because it is designed by Tascam to do so. Firmware can be updated, storage is endless with SD cards and the operation learning curve is much less than any PC software DAW,DXi/VST combo.

Tascam's preamps and a/d-d/a converters are on par with the other manufacturer's interface offerings and the unit is designed with enough horsepower to handle full capacity of its use without a hiccup.

I don't think you can put together a retail combination of a new windows PC, 8 channel audio interface and audio software package at a comparable cost to a MTR. Plus in the time it would take to set up the new computer, connect the interface, install the drivers, install the software and troubleshoot getting everything to work together, Lucm could have several songs recorded on the MTR.

Is it Protools? No - but its audio files will work with Protools, Garageband, Cubase, Avid, Studio One, Sonar or any other wav compatible software.

That's possible, I haven't looked at the all in one multi-tracks recently. I remember the one I had .... editing was a real PITA....

I'd say save the money until you have enough to buy a Windows computer and an interface. Software for the DAW is available for $20 so that's the least of the cost.... editing on a software windows based DAW is so easy to do....

I agree Herb. Purchase wise, Lucm has received more than enough advice to make at least an 'informed' choice to address needs and wants. Dollar wise, there is also the option of buying used and slightly outdated PC gear. Investment wise and time wise, for the cost of a Presonus or Focusrite 8 channel interface, with an MTR, Lucm is up and going.

For me, saving money for a wishlist item has never worked well. Life has always had a way of sucking the life out of a savings account. One car repair, broken water pipe and even a new dream can magically cause $$$$ to disappear.


Not knowing the MTR you've had experience with, how long ago, the price bracket or even how long you stuck with it before jumping to a PC DAW, it's hard to judge how much a PITA you had. Remember splicing/editing real tape from the pre-digital days? Not only a PITA but some pressure because of the destructive nature of the task.

I agree that even today some of the lower price range units are somewhat difficult to maneuver around in menu's to find and execute even simple tasks but not so with higher end units, in particular, the Tascam DP-24/32 models. Their channel strip/Fx section functions in the same fashion as a Presonus Studiolive digital mixer board's Fat Channel'. Recording is a breeze and if one has even the most rudimentary knowledge of playing live with a mixer, they can set up and record with a DP-24/32/2488 or comparable Korg, Roland or Yamaha MTR without ever reading the manual.

Editing on the Tascam is both intuitive and easy. Copy/Paste/Cut/Move/insert/delete and auto-punch-in are all set up and selected in the same manner and the user simply has to know which operation he wants to perform. Three buttons to press at the most. (From),(To) and (here) if moving the selection is necessary. Many functions, including setting markers, punch-in's (auto or manual), record, play and stop can be done with a foot switch and/or midi control.

If you're still missing your DAW at this point, simply connect the MTR USB to your PC and your DAW will see the MTR as a drive and it's files will be available to the advanced features of the DAW. Alternately, if you have finished with the MTR, simply unplug the SD card and insert that into your PC.

My Tascam DP-24 is an integral part of my home studio and functions as a 'detachable' front end to my DAW. It is just as accessible to my DAW and all its features as my Presonus USB interfaces. I have immediate access to record up to 8 simultaneous inputs without any additional setup on my PC of drivers, asio/mme or soundcard issues and I don't have to mess with buffer size, or any of that. It offers zero latency since there is no direct connection to the DAW.

I would suggest to anyone looking to increase their recording channel count when upgrading their home studio to consider a MTR because it offers a lot of additional benefits for the comparable cost of an 8 channel audio interface.

That Tascam DP-24 would serve well as a live mixer as well. That would sure make recording live demos a lot easier..........Hmmmmmmmm...


I HATE YOU CHARLIE !!!!! [b][/b]

Hi, everyone. I'm back. First of all, I want to say that this group is awesome. Great people here. I hope I haven't been a nuisance to anyone. Perhaps I can say that my quest is approaching an end. I've been reading all day long for days, passing out in bed with the tablet on my hands, and I've learned a lot about many things. My quest is not over yet, but there is a lot less haze in my sight, everything is clearer and should be resolved soon.

Now on to the latest comments.

Bob, I'll reply to you last.

Herb, sorry if I sound stubborn, but I really loathe Windows. I used it for a few years then moved to Linux and never looked back. Learning was hard, but definitely worth it. I also used to think that Linux was too limited, but I've been investigating that over the last few days and I'm having a pleasant surprise. There is a lot more music software than I thought, and some of it is really good. I'm just not happy with the plugins, I think I can do better on Caustic even with its limited number of effects, but the whole scenario is certainly better than I'd thought. And I'm not so sure that Windows is the best bet for serious computer musicians anymore. Take a gander at this thread, for example:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_devices/windows-support-for-usb-audio-20/0d633b9f-3193-4c63-8654-fb10b3614a04?page=9

Weird, wild stuff.


Charlie (I assume c_fogle is Charlie), I have ruled out a multi track recorder for the time being, simply because it's too expensive. Everything is too expensive in my country, it's the worst place in the world for people who love technology. I found the Tascam DP-24 for sale here and whoa, too much for my wallet. Not gonna happen now. I had considered the Tascam DP-008ex, but after further investigation, I don't want it anymore. It's 16-bit only and two inputs only. It's 8 track on playback, not on recording. I would have to do a lot of overdubbing, and that I can do already without buying anything. For a tad more, I could get a Tascam DR-40 or even stretch my budget to the max and get a Zoom H5. I really like the way you think and it seems to be a very good piece of equipment, I just can't afford it.


Now here is a full-length reply to Bob (jazzmammal):

Alright, let me separate all the ideas. For the sake of clarity, let's say I have three distinct projects:

1) my band
2) other bands
3) myself alone

1) My band. That one is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. You see, I am a drumkit apprentice. I make some pretty good beats on the beatbox, but I am a big nerd who takes studying seriously and decided that it would be very beneficial to me if I had true drumkit lessons, so I would understand the whole beating business better. I like the classes, I have a good teacher. He loves jazz and hates percussionists. The school set me up with a band so we can practice, the whole bunch of newbies. It's a plus that the school offers for free. I could turn it down, but I understand it will be a very good experience so I accepted it although I have, strictly speaking, no time for that. I've been pulling time out of my sleeves like magic to accommodate it.

Well, incidentally, I am very, VERY interested in learning all aspects of production, so yes, I can use the rehearsals as an opportunity to learn and practice, but I don't really have to do that if it becomes a problem, like say, buying expensive equipment just for that. But it kind of overlaps with the second project:

2) Other bands. I have many musician friends, including one who is a close friend and very talented, he has an album and he's asked me to produce his performances. I can't, I'm not ready for that, but I am willing to learn. Besides that, I am assistant producer of a monthly event, a sort of a cabaret with pre arranged guests and it's also an open mic night. It's the best description I can provide. Anything goes. That's why I strongly considered buying a mixing board. The one we have now is not ours, it belongs to the bar, it's old and kind of lame, and nobody seemed to know how to operate it, not even the bar staff. I had to learn and I was promoted to mix desk operator. Mind you, it's just a leisure thing put up by friends having fun, and it's loads of fun, but we care about the quality of production. We are better than most similar events in our city, except for the sound. We really have to put more effort into that, and it's a matter of honor to me because I always loved all things related to sound, I just had to be realistic and pursue another career in life, now I have to catch up with my passion. So that project involves producing live performances and recording them. That is more or less important to me. I can postpone it, and I HAVE to postpone it if it becomes expensive, but I would be a happier person if I could pursue it to the fullest.

3) Myself alone. This is the one that really, really, absolutely matters above everything else. It involves me writing songs, plus production, recording, mix'n'mastering, everything. I'll have to learn production from scratch, but that's all the more fun. I'm a huge nerd at heart, I love learning and I gobble up heaps of information quite fast. I know it's going to be one heck of a ride.

I've been writing my songs on Caustic, a phone/tablet application that has an excellent beatbox and many synthesizers. It's very good for the sounds and has excellent workflow within its own restricted context, but it's made for mobile and it wants to stay that way, so there are serious limitations. I am forced to deal with a lot of overdubbing. At least I can hook up a MIDI controller to it (over USB), but I can only hook the tablet up to the computer through an analogue TRS cable, or Caustic can dump the track into a WAV file that I can edit on the computer. It can dump each instrument into a separate file too, that helps, but the whole process still is a bit clumsy. I guess I would have to use the exact same approach if I used a multi track recorder (such as Tascam). Caustic also runs on desktop, both on Windows and Linux, and I still don't know how much I can leverage that. The jackd server on Linux is very good for routing inputs and outputs all over the place, but it's complicated like hell even to a seasoned Linux user like me, I still haven't learned that, and I don't think Caustic can provide multiple individual channels except on dumped WAV files. If I route its output through the jack system, it's probably going to be the one channel only. It's not made for the desktop and it's not made to interact with other tools directly.

I have Caustic on two tablets, plus one or two other applications that might help a lot, so I would like to be able to combine several inputs. Don't forget there is my singing, it's an input too, and I am probably going to have someone over to play the guitar. Other instruments are not out of the question. I know some people. I am now preparing to wean off Caustic and embrace some other music authoring application on desktop.

When I posted here for the first time, I had no idea of equipment (obviously) and I also wanted to solve all the problems at once. Hence my original idea: get a mixing board, hook the whole world up to it, monitor on headphones, beam the output to the computer through an analogue cable (clueless, I know) and get busy. Now I see that having separate channels neatly arranged in a decent DAW will likely make a huge difference in my creation workflow - mixing board and musician friends be damned.

So my current plan is to buy an audio interface then a better recorder. For the interface, the jury's still out. Buying for Linux is never easy. For the recorder, I've been lusting after the Zoom H6. Too expensive for me, so I'll settle for the Zoom H5, it's a good compromise. I'd love to buy the Tascam DP-24, but that's really steep for me right now.

Thank you very, very much y'all again.

lucm - start with #3 first. Get really good at it, to where you start receiving compliments from people from which you respect their recorded output.

Then move on to recording your own band and dealing with all the potential personal interaction issues.

Then figure out if you want to be in the middle of a whole bunch of other people's business when you sign up to record their bands.

None of that has to do with what interface to buy or which OS you might like to use.

Keep this in mind also, there are tons of people doing this nowadays. Just search your local Craigslist for audio interfaces, and you'll see tons for sale in any major city. There's a reason for that as well that's not unlike all of the people buying entry level acoustic guitars and Casio/Yamaha portable keyboards thinking they are going to be the next big thing.

I would start by trying to learn recording for the fun of it. If you get good at it, consider very carefully making the step over the line to try making money at it.

There's a really nice intro class to this from Berklee College of Music and it's FREE. This is a great class. https://www.coursera.org/course/musicproduction

Moving from fun to making money - It can, not necessarily will, take the fun out of it. There are nearly countless people that are good at home recording now. To do bands properly, you need a big enough space where it's not going to sound like crap. That's going to be much more important than the equipment that you buy.

Subscribe to TapeOp magazine - free to persons in the US. Interviews recording engineers, producers, etc. all that make a somewhat of a living at it, some much more than others (Trevor Horn was featured awhile ago).

Well enough from me. This stuff can be great fun. I make a little money at it as a live sound engineer and trainer, but I couldn't depend on it for a living.

I can't thank you enough, rockstar_not. Your message is sage, kind and extremely valuable. I followed your advice and enrolled in the music production course, and.. on the music theory course that starts in August. Gee, I love learning!

I love your music, too. You know this stuff.

Thank you!

Another free, online music production course is called PLAY WITH YOUR MUSIC. It covers things like developing listening skills, mixing and adding effects.

The course is availiable at Play With Your Music

"Buy once, cry once".

Cool, I've been taking those as well Lucm. I just finished the theory one. That one is the easiest course of those provided by Berklee. I'll be taking music production when it starts on April 20th.

Don't forget to shop Craigslist and you can also find deals at Guitar Center's used gear site: http://used.guitarcenter.com/usedGear/index.cfm

Hey that looks like a good course. I'm gonna check that one out.

Cool! I'm gonna have classmates.