Hi,

First of all I've been out of the loop for years now. Lately I've been putting together songs in my ipad using StageTraxx which solo performers use a lot.

For convenience if I find a song on Karoke-Version that I can use, I grab one of those and call it the day. Otherwise I started using BIAB again to put together songs.

My issue is when I load the songs into my ipad the BIAB songs are about 3 to 4 db lower in volume. So switching between songs is going to be too much volume adjusting for a live situation.

My first thought for the quickest remedy would be to lower the volume in the Karoke Version songs and render but they are already compressed to high heaven and mp3's when I get them so the fidelity is going to take a hit if I do that.

Is there a way to master the BIAB songs when I render. By the way I'm still on 10.5 and it looks like the only way to render is mixdown to CD setting..which I save it as .wav

I have Audacity set up, Reaper but that just comes with your basic VST (I think) whatever you get for $60 and I have Studio One that came with interface box. It has some mastering eff but I was hoping I could do everything in BIAB.

Thank on any tips!

Various ways to do this.

After exporting to MP3, I use Wavelab to normalize all volumes to -4 dB (Any DAW will do this). Then I play the normalized files through the PA, making notes on which songs have to come up a dB or two, or down. I revisit those songs and get a more-or-less balanced set of volumes.

Nothing worse than having a song jump out at you 6 dB too loud!


Regards,

Bob

Ha! SOOOOO true!

+1 on the rest. Good info.

Ok, I guess I need to use something in Studio One to master or should I say compress/turn up the BIAB files. I tried normalize but still too much between the 2.

Thanks

I'm not sure what features are in your version of BiaB. If you've got the VST/DX Synths dialog, you can drop a VST compressor effect into the combo slot, or use the one that comes with BiaB.

Reaper actually comes with a nice set of VSTs which are pretty easy to use. They have a stand-alone set that can run in other DAWs, include BiaB - you can find them here. Obviously, there's the reacomp compressor plug-in. But the reajs plug-in has a number of nice tools as well. Push the Load button on the VST and look under LOSER to find some master limiters. SStillwell has some nice compressors - for example, eventhorizon and fairlychildish.

Since you've got Reaper already installed, keep in mind that the 60 days review period is non-expiring, so you won't lose any work if that period runs out - you'll just get a nag screen, but no lost functionality. I'd just load the .wav files from BiaB into Reaper and put compressors on the FX of the main buss.

Obviously there are other DAWs available - I just happen to be familiar with these, and you'd mentioned that you've got Reaper installed.

You can find other free VST compressors here, and you can find a list of free master limiters here. Again, these should work in BiaB, assuming that you've got a version that supports VSTis on the Combo track.

A simple alternative is to use something like..

Waves One Knob Louder

http://www.waves.com/plugins/oneknob-louder#oneknob-louder-demo

It is fairly transparent even when hitting something with 7 or 8 on the knob. You can download a demo to test it. $49 - they put it on sale at times. It could not be any simpler. Drop it on a mix file and turn the knob.

I use WavePad... not to be confused with WaveLab.... to do final edits and such on my exported waves. It's simply a wave editor and mp3 converter. My last step is to NORMALIZE the track to whatever level I want. Normalization is NOT compression.

With normalization, you are simply increasing the volume of everything in a track in a linear fashion using the highest musical peak as the reference point. So if you have a track with good average peaks through out, and set -4dB as the point, the entire track with those peaks comes up in volume. You are amplifying the peaks as well as the noise floor gets raised which is why a fair number of people speak poorly of normalizing. If you have a song with one large spike that's pretty loud, normalization will hardly be noticeable on that track.

You want to be careful with compression. Compression does more to the music than to simply raise the level, which is what a lot of folks use it for. It reduces the peaks while at the same time bringing up the lower program material.

I don't mess around with the karaoke tracks, but it doesn't surprise me one bit that they are super compressed. Trying to match your material to them would, I imagine, be difficult, for more than a few reasons.

MY THOUGHTS: If I was trying to do what you are attempting.... I would first, lightly compress (perhaps a bit more than "lightly" but error on the side of caution) the original WAVE file with a good DAW compressor to get it looking something like this:



Notice the head room in WavePad? That's the remaining distance between the peaks and the top and bottom of the window. Also notice that the peaks are pretty much all around the same point. This file can now easily be normalized to give a nice volume bump without further compression. Normalizing it will give a noticeable volume increase.

This file is not so easy to bump smoothly in volume due to it's "spikey" appearance. Those spikes will prevent it from seeing much of an increase in volume from a normalizing process. I would need to compress it first if I wanted to get the levels up. Notice that the peaks in this wave ARE touching the top and bottom of the screen. It has already been normalized to 100% in this case. Any further increase in volume would need to be through compression which would start to alter the sonic quality of the music in subtle ways. This song is on my web site and this is the version you will hear. 100% normalized level, no further compression. http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11386873



The important part of this entire equation is the file you start with should be full and well recorded with strong levels. Start with a weak wave and you will have issues.

Trying to match your original music to that of some that was recorded in some sort of "professional setting" and compressed by that studio, is going to be an interesting project. Not impossible, but it will teach you some things along the way.

Hope this info is useful and educational to you.

"My first thought for the quickest remedy would be to lower the volume in the Karoke Version songs and render but they are already compressed to high heaven and mp3's when I get them so the fidelity is going to take a hit if I do that."


Not really. Just lower the Karaoke tracks volumes to match the BIAB songs.


Regards,

Bob

As Guitarhacker pointed out, normalization is limited by the maximum volume of the recording. Normalization works by going raising the volume of the whole sound - but only so that none of the sound exceeds the maximum.

That means that if any of the recording is already near the maximum (typically one of those "spikes", or "transients" - often a drum beat), there's not much room to raise the volume.

A compressor works by raising the raising the volume where it's low ("low level compression"), and lowering the volume where it's high ("peak limiting"). You lose variety in volume, but generally gain in overall loudness. You'll need to know how to fiddle with settings to get the best results, or find VST with presets or simplified settings (like floyd jane pointed out).

The "transparency" of the compressor is determined by how fast it turns changes the volume, and how quickly it returns to the normal settings. Typically, you don't want to hear the knob being turned (so to speak), although sometimes that effect (called "pumping") is desirable.

A master limiter is just a more specialized compressor. It's named as such because it's typically placed on the master buss to limit the signal so it doesn't exceed the maximum volume ("peak limiter"). But you might find it an easy way to increase the volume.

There are a number of free VSTs that specialize in making a mix louder, such as this. They're typically just compressors with the settings simplified so they're easier to use.

One of my favorites is the VST BOOST 11 that comes with Cakewalk. It's not free. But it is included in the majority of the Cakewalk DAWs. When I have a track that isn't cutting through the mix, I can throw B-11 on it and waaa laaa.... I can hear it.

Of course the better option and one that I generally work on later on in the mix process is to turn the other tracks down a bit so I don't need to use B-11 because it does squash the sound of that track.... with a guitar, that's not a problem, but with a vocal, you don't want it squashed.

The OP is talking about a "live situation", i.e. - through a PA. What sort of PA? A Bose system, SOS's, or a full-blown pro system? Any given mix will sound decidedly different on each of these systems. I have three PA systems. They all sound very different.


There is no plug-in that will substitute for your ears in this situation. The best method I have found is to adjust the gain of each mix to a baseline (-4 dB in my case), play the tracks over the PA at performance levels, and adjust volumes accordingly. It's time consuming, but it works much better than the one button approach.



Regards,

Bob

I'll check the Reaper vst out, Thanks! I bought reaper awhile back, I really like the feature where it slows down the track but keeps the pitch, works great. I need to take the time and learn how to set it up though, makes sense in looking at your link to the vst's

I hear you. It would be nice to have individual channels for each instrument since room acoustics change also affects levels but I guess that defeats the ipad mp3 concept of having everything compact in one place with lyrics that scroll as the song plays.

Thanks for the pics. Yes, I like the headroom you got to work with there. I'll see what I can do.

Not sure about version 10.5, but recent versions have the sliders in the image below.
Not sure how they actually work , but suspect they use PGPeakLimit plugin in the output path. In older versions they may be available but located in a different place, maybe as menu item as opposed to sliders in the mixer shown.

You could also simply open the resulting file in Realband (from a BiaB song saved as either a Wav or a native .sgu format) ... and then use the PGPeakLimit plugin on the whole thing as a VST .. but that would open a whole 'nother world of PGMusic goodness.

Also, you mentioned Audacity...it comes with pretty good compression and normalization tools that you can set up as a macro process and apply repeatedly to a batch of files.

Hi Guitarhacker

I noticed you use Wavepad. I also use that for a lot of ESL language recordings. Do you feel the effects that come with it match up to eg the effects in Realtracks? Do you use any of the other NCH products. I use quite a few others like Switch for file conversion and debut for video recording and soundtap for audio recording. I'm a big fan of most of their products. I also bought Mixpad, but I've not used it for multitrack recording. Are you familiar with it and how do you rate it? Could I consider it a serious DAW product. Sorry I'm pretty new to multi-track recording and DAWs.

Thanks

Neil

I use specific tools for specific jobs. So as far as WavePad is concerned..... here's what I use it to do:

1. To view the overall wave. I can see if the song is compressed and to what level.

2. To trim the starting count in and the dead air at the end.

3. To normalize the file if it's low.

4. To convert to MP3.

I do not use WavePad to add effects or compression to the file. Since I don't use FX in WavePad nor do I use the FX in Real Band or on realtracks, I really can't answer that question about how they compare. All my FX go in at the DAW level in Sonar.

I think I do have a few of their other products on some of my computers, but I don't use them so again, I can't comment on them.

Like so much of the software I use to do what I do, I use it all in very specific ways and limited ways and in many cases don't even touch the vast majority of it's capabilities. BB is a prime example. I use it to compose and write. I rarely ever use the ACW or so many of it's other features. I enter the chords, select a style and proceed to write the song. It's essentially my scratch pad replacing the old pan and paper I used to use.

This is also true of the NCH software. I don't use a function just because it's there. I use it only if I need it.

Hope that helps and answered your questions.

Thanks. It's easy to get sidetracked with all the toys. I understand exactly where you're coming from. Right now, I'm having to be very focused as I have a solo live show on Saturday and it's my first time using BIAB rather than just rendered files. Also, it's quite different going back to live after several months of internet shows.

I use Audacity as a final step even after a Pro Tools mix. I snip the head and tail and adjust the level using the amplify effect, don't forget to check the box to allow clipping, you won't hear distortion.

Will, try this tip to finalize your tracks in Audacity.

Before you trim the beginning, create a slight FADE In from the effects menu.

Repeat on the ending if you are using a fade out.. FADE OUT from the effects menu. This prevents that abrupt jolt from where you go from the silent lead-in into a high volume beginning. The fade-in can be adjusted before trimming so the fade-in is precise enough you still get the feel of a high volume start but not to the point it jolts you out of your seat.

Trim the beginning and end as you normally do.

Select ALL

Effects Menu - select COMPRESSOR

Compress the track but carefully so as to not have any clipping. I normally use 1:5:1

Effects Menu: Select NORMALIZE and normalize the entire song. I normalize to -1db.

Using Audacity, these processes in this order provides all my songs to be consistent with a near equal level when played in a playlist. I get a much better balance to each song because the compressor brings up the overall volume level while lowering the peaks. Amplify just brings everything up.. The normalize after compression usually lowers the track level rather than bringing it up and then balances each song to a consistent level between the other songs on the playlist.

I've found this method effective even on commercially compressed, peaked and limited songs, using slight compression to bring up the overall levels and normalizing down gives me a clear, consistent output without artifacts.

I just tried this on a track I was finding troublesome to master in my DAW (Plugins were making it muddy).

This worked a treat! Thanks for the tip Charlie.

I sometimes forget the golden rule of mastering - light touch required at all times.

Cheers.
Mike.

I'm glad it worked for you. Audacity is a very useful program.

I never use any sort of a fade up at the beginnings to the songs. If it hits too hard, you should go back and fix it in the tracks, not there in the finalizing stages.

No matter how it starts, it should always sound like a normal start. You can hit hard and go from there.


What I would consider doing on a song that does hit the ground running.... rather than simply starting it cold..... insert a nice snare smack on "4" and it will work better and sound more natural.

I agree with you 100% in the context that if something is 'wrong' with the mix, the final mix stage or mastering stage is not the place to 'fix' it. Go back to tracking and fix it there.

That is not what I'm addressing. I'm talking about a mix where there is nothing 'wrong'. I'm polishing a song so the dynamics are how I want the song to sound.

The fade in is a tweak to soften the intro. In Audacity, the length of the area selection effects how much or how little the track is changed. I work on the selected area's length until I do not hear a fade in of the beginning of the song but the harshness of the abrupt start is diminished to my satisfaction. You have to A/B between the effect and no effect to have a perception of it even being used. Very much like a slight EQ tweak or small compression change. It is an adjustment based on what you hear, not what the waveform looks like. It will still sound like a normal start. It is still abrupt and loud. Just the harshness is removed. It is a minor volume adjustment and volume adjustments and edits are part of the overall mastering process in my workflow.

Besides, you may be working on a mix for an artist that doesn't want a snare smack on "4" -

Any reason you export all files to .mp3 before you normalize? I usually normalize .wav file and name it song name(s)_normalized.wav Then create an .mp3.

Nice explanation and workflow Herb

Sure was Herb Thanks

You can't do everything in BIAB, but if you have stereo Wave files or MP3's you can do a lot in Audacity. Download and Install the latest version of Audacity from here

http://www.audacityteam.org/download/

There are almost 50 effects that will install with this version. What ever common effect you would use in any other DAW is in there. There is a simple AMPLIFY effect (by Audacity) which will change the volume of a stereo mix. Add any amount of DBs or subtract any amount. Save the project, export as .wav or .mpg. Its the simplest way to lower or raise the volume of a recording, and it does not do anything else.

If you want check out the other effects all have common names. To display them easily under the effects menu, GO TO Edit Preferences> select Effects from the menu on the left. Use the drop down arrow on the right center and GROUP BY PUBLISHER. This makes the Effects Menu more compact.