This is a pick up on Matt Finley’s great post on BIAB audiophile.

In order to keep from getting lost in the weeds I started a new thread reflecting on the audiophile post.

First, great post, Matt! Would love to hear some of your new music and albums. Shoot me some links!!!

Here is OP everybody.

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=434069#Post434069

Now, here comes the cannon blast. Picking up on the "can you use BIAB to make an album" topic.

Matt, overall, your post gets into a thorny issue. Essentially BIAB in its current 2017 state is profoundly “disruptive” as a technology and some people don’t know what to do with that. In 2008 Harvey Gerst was arguing that he used BIAB all the time for demos and didn’t understand the vitriolic comments people made about the product. He finally gave up. And think how far BIAB has come since 2008. BIAB 2017 is mind boggling insofar as the quality of the sounds that can be used in professional productions.

Looking at Harvey’s client roster you would assume that he would not use or promote a non-musical product. You would also assume he knows what he is talking about and is not a con artist. Bob Dylan does not hire con artists. Frank Zappa didn’t either.

http://www.itrstudio.com/about.html

Part of the lingering ignorance about what BIAB can or can’t do (and its evolution as a full-on production tool) has to do with the fact that the music world is crawling with con artists and hucksters and for many of those people BIAB would be seen as a threat to their livelihood and so some paradoxical and nonsensical stuff happens and stupid stuff is said about the product from time to time on other musical forums. But, 90% of what I see going on in music (or any other business today) is marketing hype. It is a triumph of marketing and spin over substance on a colossal scale, everywhere you look, in every nook and cranny.

Here is one classic albeit “micro” example of how this world of hype impacted me and a co-writer:

A friend of mine in LA and I put out an album a few years ago that we were really happy with. Then we got an unsolicited letter from a producer type who said that for $20,000 or something he could help us redo all of our songs to take us over the top “to the top of Golden Charts and sound just like Adele”--and he was very critical. So he sent us some links to his songs. They were HORRIBLE. I would never have posted a single one of them on the forum in my wildest dreams. But he thought he was fabulous. We said no thanks. My friend and colleague, by the way, writes on art, music and technology for a rather large publication I can’t mention. He was not impressed. But he loves the stuff I do with BIAB for sure.

So here is the part I still don’t get:

People will sit around with their synths and beat boxes all day and whip up some stuff I could never listen to and say it is “legitimate” because they did it themselves. God bless them if they want to make this stuff, but heaven forbid if you say you are using Band in a Box as a production tool. Some folks give you that look like “How dare you!” (especially producers or people who just dropped 20 grand in a studio) but then you listen to THEIR stuff and you’re like, “Ugh….well….how should I say this….”

I honestly think that BIAB is at a watershed moment in its history where it has to break across some kind of marketing chasm so that people can just go ahead and admit that it is a wonderful production tool.

But right now, I do highly suspect that other producers like Gerst are using it—but they never tell anyone. They keep it a secret. I don’t think it has to be kept a secret, really, but that is sort of where it is right now as far as I can tell. The people who truly understand the power of the tool just keep their mouths shut and go about their business.

Meanwhile, there is a deluge of snake oil salesmen hitting up every musician I know saying “If you pay me $20,000 I can make you sound legit.”

No thanks. I’d rather do it myself. And oh, by the way, I say to people who scream that you should “play your own instrument”: I do play my own instruments. And I use BIAB. So there.


Now we’re sticky....

David, here's a link to Matt's CD. I bought shortly after Matt discussed it previously on the forum.

I've also had the privilege of hearing him and his band play live (along with their local symphony orchestra). Much fun. My understanding is that while the songs started in BIAB, everything on the album is a live performance by extremely talented musicians. It's a good listen.

Thanks!!!

Thank you both! John is correct that all the songs on my 2006 CD were written in BIAB from 1993 - 2005, and distributed to the musicians to hear, but were then recorded live in the studio for the CD. This is the same system I still use for concerts: I send my composer's demos of BIAB songs to the group, and we play the concert with no rehearsal needed.

Bear in mind there were no RealDrums until two years after I recorded my CD, and RealTracks until three years after. That was one of the main points I made in another thread, that BIAB has come along so far that I could layer a RealTrack in with live studio tracks, and it sounds great. I'm not to the point that I would make a CD with all BIAB backing tracks, but it's getting closer.

Interesting post, David, and I'm sure it will provoke a lot of discussion. Now that I'm a total BIAB convert here are a few observations about how it is received.

Most musos I talk to have heard of BIAB but few know much about it. Some tried it in its early days with its plinkety midi sounds and haven't cottoned on to Realtracks. Others tried BIAB early on and say they could never get theirs heads around the software.

Musos I've demonstrated BIAB to are super impressed with the sounds. Always. They're still mostly scared of the interface based on past experience, and they're bothered about themselves and others losing work.

My listeners initially feel let down when I explain how I created the track. Then they're curious and interested and maybe even impressed. Still they wonder what chemistry might have happened if I used 'real' musos. (Must admit I do too sometimes.)

Electronic music and therefore sampling is the norm for younger artists. I see kids all the time creating music from found sounds. That's the world they live in and they don't have a problem with it. I suspect it's more of a problem for older artists for whom 'authenticity' has a different meaning, especially where real instruments are concerned.

I agree that BIAB is disruptive but as part of a music trend that is becoming more reliant on sampled sounds at the expense of studio recorded musicians. It's just that BIAB's sampled sounds are more acoustic than electronic. I'd be surprised if a lot of demos aren't recorded using BIAB, and I'm sure a lot of music licensing creators (eg Taxi members) are using BIAB to create tracks. Nevertheless BIAB still has a long way to go in market growth provided they can keep competitors at bay.

David, I agree about BiaB has to break some kind of marketing barrier. But IMHO that will not happen until a few things happen. Some are going 64 bit, a more modern GUI, a rewrite of the menus, etc.

I know that this will tick off some of the users here but I have had musicians say BiaB sounds great but the layout is terrible and I will never use any 32 bit software.

Many of use don't care about these things but the younger generation does. Personally I would like to see those things happen.

Like you I also play instruments and I also use BiaB. Plus I am not ashamed to admit it!

YMMV

Great post David! I have some thoughts (surprise!)

First regarding telling others about using Band-in-a-Box my short answer is...don't! There are way too many pissing matches just begging to be fought with friends, fans, musicians, producers, etc. Just steer clear of all of those and keep your "secrets" to yourself!

And since I have rarely if ever been a sneezer (Seth Godin's definition; not the one in Urban Dictionary!), I have very little interest in promoting the product since I do not receive royalties or discounts for doing so.

Next, as to why Band-in-a-Box is not more widely accepted and acknowledged I think there are several reasons and below are just a few I thought of...

1) As you pointed out, there is great skepticism that the product will do what it claims. When I first bought it in 2012 I was quite skeptical as it sounded too good to be true. Were it not for the enthusiasm here in the forums I probably would have taken a pass on it. Even when I was entering my credit card I did not believe it did what they said and I was prepared to exercise the 30 return option!

2) The price to get started is fairly high; it will not usually be an impulse purchase. And the cheaper packages do not deliver the true BIAB experience since they include such a limited subset of RealTracks.

3) BIAB makes it super easy to create an awesome classic country song, a cool classic rock and roll song, a beautiful classic surf song and I guess classic jazz songs. But note the word "classic". To me it is a whole lot harder to create something that sounds fresh and in line with 2017 popular music. Maybe part of that is the modern music is more complicated and does not follow the classic song structures and maybe BIAB could just use some modernizing when it comes to RealTracks. I know someone is going to jump in and tell me it will produce perfect 2017 music but if so I have not figured out how to do that!!

4) On a related note, there is likely a concern among professional musicians that using a product like BIAB to write original songs is risky because many of the RealTracks have an almost signature sound that can make songs sound too similar to each other.

5) The interface still looks and feels outdated and is still too complex and confusing. I know this will start a firestorm among some folks around here but younger people care about the interface and overall ease of use! That is why you see such sleek GUIs being offered for almost every other modern music product.

Thanks, I have a funny story coming up here in a sec....

Thanks Mario!

Hey JohnJohnJohn,

Great reply man! Very eloquent!

Hey something really, really funny happened just now that is so in line with what we are talking about I had to share. It really made me laugh, thinking about these posts.

So, I just left my songwriter's meeting at a huge music store here that sponsors us for meeting space, and a guy showed up who is the top guitar instructor there, a multi-instrumentalist from Berklee, who plays and teaches guitar (wicked, wicked chops), violin, viola, cello, saxophone, brass, flute and bass.

I played him something Floyd and I are working on and about to release (and a few other things done in BIAB recently) over the PA system in the large rehearsal space. Played it loud. Really loud.

After they were done, he stared at me. This is the nearly exact avalanche of words that came out of his mouth next and I am not lying.

"D....., where the....did you finds those musicians! Those people are killer man! Jeez. What the...! I never heard a drummer so tight!! Man! What studio did you do that in? The B3 is killer!!! Man, let me be in your band. Please. These songs are epic. I want to play in your band man. I have a bass player and a drummer and we can practice here. Some of the other master instructors here are gonna want to play too. Can they play? Can I put a horn section together for you man? We can be like the E Street band. We can kill it dude. Do you want to start practicing next week? My manager is probably gonna wanna sing some back up vocals. Will you let her?? We can use our sound stage to practice on. What do you say man? Are we on? These songs are huge. Hey, where in the ....did you find people who can play like that? Man, I am going to have actually practice! Ha! Ha! I don't even know what some of those chords are! What WERE those bridge chords? Wow."

Direct quote. Verbatim.

I said..

"Uh, ok man. I just wanna play acoustic and sing the songs. Whatever you say. Pull the band together buddy."

He said:

"I'm on it," and walked out front to start talking to people.

So, maybe there is something to this whole Band in a Box thing after all.

Hmmmmmmmmm.

What to do. What to do.

Well, if that is a true story my hat is off to you! You got someone's attention (without copping to using BIAB) who can maybe bring the real musicians and work with your songs! I hope it works out for you!!

JohnJohnJohn Quote: " 3) I know someone is going to jump in and tell me it will produce perfect 2017 music but if so I have not figured out how to do that!!"

Matcham Quote: "Electronic music and therefore sampling is the norm for younger artists. I see kids all the time creating music from found sounds. That's the world they live in and they don't have a problem with it."

BIAB is more than capable for producing perfect 2017 music. Here's why.

2017 music is loops, samples and synthesizers. Young artists do create music from found sounds. What that means is they spend hours searching for and extracting samples from commercial songs and midi libraries. A young artist may cannot afford a thousand dollar library but can learn to find and sample high quality sounds from commercial recordings other artists have produced using the high quality, expensive library. The sampled sound is brought into a synth and the synth plays new original music using the sampled sound.

While BIAB generated tracks may sound classic, dated and similar. BIAB generated tracks that are sampled will not sound in that classic, similar manner. There are more than 2,500 hours of pristine recorded Real Tracks available to be sampled and looped into modern music. The instrument can easily be generated for sampling as an isolated, pristine instrument. The sampling potential is nearly limitless.

I recently took an online midi programming course that was quite eye opening to how pop, edm, house, rap, and country music are constructed. There was extensive discussion and demonstration how modern musicians work entirely in the box to locate, extract and make sampled music from commercial recordings. isolating a clean sound from multiple instruments playing can take some dexterous cutting and pasting. The producer never mentioned BIAB or any similar program. He did have expensive libraries for his synths. Using samples and loops, tracks at a length of 4 to 8 bars are generated, quantized and duplicated to the length of the song. This is repeated for 4 to 6 additional sampled synth tracks to create a beat, bass, chord progression and melody. The song is then structured into the intro, verse, chorus and bridge as desired. Additional tracks of acoustic instruments, vocals, backing vocals and fills are added.

A lot of forum members are familiar with Graham Cochran of The Recording Revolution. He made a recent Facebook post where he demonstrates some of these techniques and interestingly samples A Savage Garden vocal piece from 4th of July. It is around the 5:35 mark I believe.

I tried to post the link but was unable to get it to open. For those who have Facebook, they can access his FB page to watch it.

He also posted a similar video on YouTube - Here -

There are literally thousands of hours of audio in BIAB available for sampling.

Charlie

Interesting posts. I have to say, I agree with johnjohnjohn, but who knows, it's nearly Xmas! I'm counting on my Voicelive 3 Ext and Reaper / iZotope to give me the modern sound. The only problem is my lack of talent.. .... What's for sure is the BIAB/Realband get you into the ball park for a lot of areas.

This is true.
I tend to avoid realtracks that have a distinctive riff for this very reason, and now only use the ones that are more generic.
I almost always record my own guitar tracks, but I recall a couple of years ago I used a realtrack guitar that had a great riff that I liked for a blues tune. Couple of weeks later someone else posted a blues tune using the same realtrack. 12 bar blues, same riff, basically the same song with different lyrics :P

But, using the more generic realtracks is not a problem, and the more tracks you can record yourself the better off you will be at coming up with something unique IMHO.



Agree 100% that it needs a facelift. I've been using the program since 2002 and it hasn't changed that much. Doesn't bother me, but someone new looking at the program might be put off by the dated interface.

Good post BTW David!

I need to get back to the songwriter meetings.... all the good stuff happens when I'm not there.


Yeah, I've had that battle... uhhh, I mean "discussion", in the Sonar forums a few times. I'd post a song done with BB and when people asked, I told them who was playing and the war would commence. Everything from I'm cheating to ....well you can imagine. It would usually end up stating that recording itself was cheating and disingenuous since it wasn't organic and live. Oh well, you can't please everyone. I eventually stopped including the info on the players and PM'ing anyone who asked "who played the steel, or the fiddle" to kind of keep the conversation on track regarding the recording crits I was seeking.

I had one guy over there who runs a few professional studios in another state make the comment that the fiddle in one of the tracks sounded so real that he could "hear the rosin on the bow".... quite a compliment knowing who this guy was and the quality of the work he was capable of doing.

I think most people are threatened by the quality of the sounds when compared to what they can personally do. I'll be the first to admit that the studio players are way beyond what I could conjure up trying to play B3, fiddle, piano, and yes, even some of the guitar work. Especially if I try to emulate it with midi and samples. The biggest thing is the quality of the sounds. I might be able to play a more interesting guitar part..... lead or rhythm, but nailing the quality of the recorded acoustic guitar.... hard to do.

My main argument point to the ones who were against using BB was this. If you can't or don't play a particular instrument, you have to hire someone to do it for you. What's the difference between hiring someone in a session and using BB? Do you consider hiring session cats to be cheating? Of course not. For me, it is essentially the same thing. The big difference is that if I'm writing and recording a lot, I don't have the budget to be hiring top quality musicians to do demo sessions on my songs. And we all know that the folks listening to the music don't want to hear amateurish sounding players and bad quality music. Financially, BB works better for me in that regard. Furthermore, you couldn't afford to hire Brent Mason and some of the other top players for your sessions anyway, or wait until they could schedule your session. If I need Brent at 10pm or 10am, BB makes him available instantly.

David, did you ever tell the guy the truth about the session players and break his heart?

Herb,

Ugh....no. He was so fired up about pulling an all star band together to copy the sound that I thought I would just clear my throat and mumble and let him go about his networking.

My mic cable came unplugged at that point Herb. Not my fault. It was not a lack of transparency man, just bad wiring you know?

Well, I guess I better write some more tunes.

Awesome!!! Studio Quality!!!! That's what I'm talking about right there. I'm going to get this.

You might want to consider getting Matt's wife's CDs:

http://denisejordanfinley.com/albums/

They are also studio quality. My wife has played "Solstice" so many times that if it was vinyl it would have been ruined by now and we got it when we went Matt and Denise in July!

A very interesting thread David. Thanks for starting it.

j*3 have you tried the bonus styles to try and get a more modern sound out of biab? They are great (and completely different and modern...imho).

I was listening to a podcast a while back and they were talking about the musicians who differentiate themselves by recording unusual instruments together like "pedal steel, banjo and a cello". Heck! We do that all the time over here!

I actually like telling people I make my music with biab. Not only do I feel like I "owe" pg music for providing me with this wonderful product that has transformed my musical life but I actually do like helping people to improve their own sound which, If they are prepared to put in the work and learn the product they can usually do.

I have a young guy in Serbia who does final mixing of a lot of my tracks for licensing and he makes a lot of electronic music that is very popular on SoundCloud. He works with lots of different artists but I can safely say that I am his favorite! He absolutely loves getting my tracks and putting a final shine on them. Btw he would purchase bias himself but says it is too expensive...a while back I wrote and recorded a track specifically for an opportunity in one day. He could not believe it was possible (it has subsequently been licensed... will post a link shortly.

Yep, I have bought every RealTrack and every RealStyle since 2012 and played around with all of them except jazz. It seems super simple to create classic sounding songs...just enter a chord progression...change chorus to b style...and it just works! Magical, really! Maybe I just don't know the product well enough but I can't get modern music out of the box! How about a new Joanne Cooper video on how to create 2017 music with BIAB?


No doubt BIAB has provided me with tools to quickly improve my music and I am glad I discovered it! As for owing PG...nope, I have been sending them money for 5 years and expect to continue so no debt there!!

J*3.not a bad idea. Post a link of something you think sounds "modern" and I will try. Bear in mind I tend to do pop, Americana and country more than jazz, rock or blues☺️ I won't try to recreate it exactly but will try to make it sound "modern".

Something like this maybe? https://youtu.be/tebjshm7f_I

yeah, that's a perfect example of modern. do that one.

Yeah these sound great too!

Y'all ARE joking, right?

A 68 year old rock'n'roller - who's entire career is steeped in the tradition of rock and folk - and prides himself on that - singing an old Negro spiritual - first recorded 100 years ago - in an arrangement that is basically Dixieland/New Orleans/Folk using all acoustic (traditional) instruments.

And THAT is you definition of "modern"?

Hi Floyd. I am confused why you would not think this is a modern rendition (produced in 2013) of a song that is probably 100 years old. It certainly is more modern than other versions of this song. I think the problem comes in with defining the term "modern". It means different things to different people

If that is your definition, okay, that's fine. Just because something was done recently (2005, actually) doesn't make it a modern rendition. To me it sounds like an old spiritual done in an old spiritual manner - quite a traditional style. But, like you say, different strokes.

This one by Bluegrass artist Dan Tyminski may be a better example??? It's certainly not his Oh Brother Where Art Thou persona of Man of Constant Sorrow...

Southern Gothic

Oh, yeah. That's cool. Thanks for bringing that to our attention, Charlie.
(And, there's no reason you couldn't emulate this in BIAB. Are you working on it?).

People, people, people! ALL these choices are so wrong.

THIS is the sound of modern.

Now everybody get out their midi style 0s and get back to work.

Ok?????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1v0o2ItL4g

Jeez!! Dang!!

Some of us are old farts - that's the problem. I thought I was making a point of listening to modern music (by my standards) on my way to and from work. Last night I put on what I thought was modern only to be immediately put in my place by my 12 year old who switched to Spotify.... with a knowing look and a sigh.

On reflection this was the modern part of my playlist yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nkFq1hv6L8 (5 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvYUfwMBCrU (6 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqCpjFMvz-k (7 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=450p7goxZqg (4 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8UX2bbCHJw (3 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZMT8otKdI (2 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR6iYWJxHqs (7 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM (4 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v_4O44sfjM (5 years)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA (3 years)

I think a lot of us never actually really listen to modern music - good or bad. She has a point. Also I'm a bit of a romantic. Worse still, my live set is from 30 - 80 years old!

These would be more to her taste:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2qgadSvNyU&list=PL3oW2tjiIxvQ1BZS58qtot3-p-lD32oWT
If you want to be current, then you have to listen to these

Cool track Charlie. Can you find something similar for a public domain song and I will accept the challenge from j*3. (Then, if if turns out well I can submit for licensing...)

Ok. If you want to do a modern project I'll be glad to help you anyway you think I can. I will PM you with a song I'd actually been thinking of doing and been playing around with it in BIAB. (Yes Floyd, I'm sure it can be done in BIAB) ;=)

May be late tomorrow before I can get a message out. I have a 200 mile trip to take tomorrow early.

Charlie,

This is a great song! Thanks for posting the link. I doubt that I'd ever have stumbled across this.

Regards,
Noel

I assumed Joanne was joking so my reply was joking.

By modern I meant something written and recorded and charted within the last five years or so. Maybe something like,

Imagine Dragons - I Bet My Life or Thunder
Sia - Chandelier or Elastic Heart
Rag'n'Bone Man - Human or Skin
Lorde - Green Light or Royals
JP Cooper - September Song
Ed Sheeran - Thinking Out Loud
Avicii - Wake Me Up

Some of these seem "doable" with some serious editing and combining RealTracks from various styles. I guess I see how it could be done but it still seems like BIAB is designed to create almost instant classics whereas more modern music would require a greater effort that includes some serious editing.

Just in going through these I am seeing pop really depends on strong vocals or even vocals with f/x. Of course BIAB cannot help with that part! I guess I am seeing the possibilities but I still need to learn a lot.

And I welcome anyone's advice on how to best create modern stuff with BIAB!

J*3 are you wanting to "reproduce" these songs exactly using RealTracks? If so I am not the person to show you how to do it. What I can do is produce my own rendition of a song that I would call "modern" but it wont sound like the original. There are definitely others on this forum who would be able to do this using MIDI (or a mixture of MIDI and RealTracks). If so, my question would be "why". If not and you want one of your original songs to sound this way you have to have
1. A GREAT song
2. Excellent arranging skills
3. Fantastic vocals.

None of these can BIAB help you with.

PS. This guys is the biggest thing in SA at the moment.... https://youtu.be/S1XHMF4ft50

Bingo! that's correct.

Yep, that's a great example of "modern" music.

You can duplicate pretty closely some of the radio songs that aren't standard pattern songs.... I've done one that was really close...a cover tune but, I'm not able to post it online. Rules and such..... To accomplish it, I had to play much of the song parts myself and use BB where it could fit nicely. I found a style that was pretty close and spent time editing as needed. All depends on your skill levels and how much time you're willing to spend on it.

For those interested, you can listen to entire album on NPR - though, it releases today, so the listening part will be removed soon...

I listened to the whole thing last night. It is EXCELLENT. and a very good example of "current" - or "modern" if you will... which pretty much just means.... add a BEAT to what you are doing...

http://www.npr.org/2017/10/12/556939387/first-listen-tyminski-southern-gothic

I've only been using BIAB for a couple months now and I do not have the full version yet. I am working with the 2011 version with the Country Real Pak Vol. 1 add on. I feel a bit limited with what I have at the moment but I can see the potential of what I can do with BIAB. I plan on getting the full version in January but as for now here is my take on it.

I am currently putting together an album of original songs that have a outlaw country feel to them. I would never have been able to do this on my own without BIAB as I don't play many of the instruments that I wanted to use to give it an authentic country sound. I have played the instrumentals I created for the bass player in my band and he is amazed by the quality that you can get form BIAB real tracks. He has sent me instrumentals to write to before that he produced using samples and MIDI. They sound good but the BIAB tracks sound more natural and the quality is better. He is envious of what I have been able to do in such a short time with BIAB and says that he hates and loves it at the same time. He will probably be a BIAB user in the near future (I'm quite sure of it.)

As far as making modern sounding music with BIAB I believe that it will be possible when I purchase the full version. I may have to add in some MIDI and VST instruments to get the drums and synths needed to make a modern pop hit but I believe that all the basics needed can be found here in BIAB. I look forward to challenging myself to use the program to it's fullest extent and seeing what I can come up with.

Exactly, if you just spend some time in the styles section and look at the techno, eletronica, and dubstep sections you can find 80% of this in sample loops that will play themselves.

Then go find a mandolin and the right acoustic.

Next find a Real drum track and layer it in, and use a lot of EQ and reverb so it will thump.

Lastly, fill in missing percussion or synth parts with Sample Tank 3 or something similar. Done.

20 minutes.

It's not that hard.

You sure do make it sound easy David! Any chance you'd do a "20 minute" example with maybe a brief blog-type how-to post? Please!! I have been enjoying (and learning from) the blog posts from a couple of other forum folks and this would make a really popular one I would think. Pretty please???

Well, let me see what I can whip up. Might not be immediate.

Cool! Thanks David!

One thing I've noticed is that there are quite a few "demonstrations" of BIAB on YouTube that are horribly done. The comments to these so-called "demos" were less than kind - but the "demos" were really, really bad. One person hearing that bad "demo" talks to other musicians and then there are 20 - 30 musicians that have a negative view of the program, many of them never having heard it, or never having heard it properly demo'd.

I'm not referring to PG Music's excellent demos - rather, to someone, a user, who really doesn't know how to properly present the program but creates and posts what he/she calls a "demo". It's really unfortunate.

I've been using BIAB since 2011.5 and still have so much to learn.

Good luck with your writing/composing, folks!

Alan

< 4) On a related note, there is likely a concern among professional musicians that using a product like BIAB to write original songs is risky because many of the RealTracks have an almost signature sound that can make songs sound too similar to each other. >

With the ability of each track to have as many as 10 different instrument changes it is a very simple matter to put alternate instruments throughout the chord chart that will completely eliminate the signature riffs and create a completely unique and unreplicable track.

Each instrument change provides a tremendous additional amount of audio for the BIAB search engine to access as it reads the chord changes. You can program the changes either by using the Part Markers or Song Settings using the RealTrack Button near the top of the window. Even alternating between two instruments doubles the amount of audio available to the Biab search engine and up to 5 changes per instrument.

I use the Stylepicker to quickly audition many Realtracks (4-5 instruments per Style) and normally filter my search by the artist's name. It's not unusual to find the artist playing in another style but using the same instrument with a similar tone that will play nicely as a replacement instrument to customize your track.

Cool thread. David you mentioned Harvey Gerst earlier. I had a great forum conversation with him 6 or 8 years ago. I don't believe he's posted since then. He knew Peter from before he started PG Music.

Harvey doesn't exactly "use" Biab in the sense we all think of. He talked about mostly using it for band demo songs for folks on a very limited budget, not day long studio sessions. Say guy and girl vocalists with basic strumming live guitar, bass and drums. Their budget is $300 and they're doing three songs. That's pretty much turn the stuff on, roll tape for an hour, done. When he's doing the mixdown after everybody has left he decides he wants 8 bars of something to sweeten up verse 2 or whatever. There's no budget to bring in another player. He'll find a few RT's, generate several versions, pick one and plug in those 8 bars, sometimes it was only 2 bars like a short Brent Mason lick . Yes he's using Biab but not too much.

He posted a few examples of this and it sounded absolutely awesome. That dude knows his stuff and I think his son has taken over the studio now.

Bob