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#103161 - 01/24/11 11:37 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: RobbMiller]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
BTW the wife and I conferred on the dotted 1/4 note and the conclusion was this:

If a 1/4 + 1/8 note = 100 then you have = 3 1/8th notes and at 96 tempo each is a value of 32.

Thus if you want to express the tempo in a 1/4 note 96-32= 64.

And we both think it looks like fudged 3/4 time, and like a lot of celtic stuff it has been done in both.

We then played 3 old Scottish airs attempting to out improv each other. I'll trick her and get my daughter to video that someday soon and post it to youtube. She hit me with the flute too. Right on the ear. Something about saying she had to get up early to take out the garbage before 7 a.m. Dang raccoons....they should be hibernating not digging in my garbage.
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#103162 - 01/25/11 08:49 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: RobbMiller]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Quote:

Mac, I think this may be true but I had to half the
chord durations for a tempo near 96 BPM to sound right.






Then I would jus consider both the dotted quarter and the BPM figure there to be a typo.

In these days of computer-generated charts, it is easy to surmise what could cause something like this to happen, maybe that given figure was "leftover" from the previous song and went unnoticed, or maybe someone really just made a blunder with it.

No matter, viewing the few bars you posted it looks to me like you could just enter as written into BB, pick a style that works for you and set the BB Tempo BPM block by ear to suit.


--Mac
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#103163 - 01/25/11 04:53 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Mac]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 12610
Loc: Australia
Hi John,

I apologize for being contrary but with all due respect, your calculation is not quite correct. Because the note-value of a quarter note is smaller than the note-value of the dotted quarter note, it is not possible to have fewer quarter notes occurring in the same amount of time as dotted quarter notes if the overall time is to remain the same.
Quote:

If a 1/4 + 1/8 note = 100 then you have = 3 1/8th notes and at 96 tempo each is a value of 32.
Thus if you want to express the tempo in a 1/4 note 96-32= 64.



Since tempo is "beats per minute", to re-map the tempo from one beat type to another, it is necessary to consider that number of different kinds of equivalent beat that occur in one minute and to work through the note type that is equal in each tempo. In this instance, the note type common to both is the eighth note.

A dotted quarter note at a tempo of 96 means that 96 dotted quarter notes occur within 1 minute.

So, since each dotted note contains three eighth notes, then there must be (3 x 96 = 288) 288 eighth notes that occur in 1 minute if 96 dotted quarter notes were played in 1 minute.

Now since it takes two eighth notes to make a quarter note, then that means that there must be (288/2 = 144) 144 quarter notes in minute.

Thus, the above tempo can be expressed a number of ways that are equivalent.

1) dotted quarter note = 96 beats per minute (if the dotted quarter note is the beat unit)

2) quarter note = 144 beats per minute (if the quarter note is the beat unit)

3) eighth note = 288 beats per minute (if the eighth note is the beat unit)

Basically, as the value of the beat note gets smaller, the equivalent tempo must increase because more of the smaller value notes are required to be played in the same amount of time as the larger note. The relationship between note value and tempo is an inverse one.

As example consider marching...

Let's say that in one minute, your left foot "walks" 20 times. This tempo could be written as "left foot = 20 walks per minute"

If we want to convert this to the walking of any foot, the right foot must have also "walked" 20 times if the that's what the left foot has done. Otherwise we wouldn't be marching. This means that the total number of "foot movements" have been 20 x 2 = 40

So a tempo of "left foot = 20 walks per minute" is equal to a tempo of "any foot = 40 walks per minute".

The measured length of time between "any" foot's movement is smaller than the measured length of time between "left foot only" movements. This is the inverse relationship that holds. As the time-value of the defining unit gets smaller, more of that unit must occur if the same amount of time is to be covered as defined by the larger unit.

Regards,
Noel
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#103164 - 01/25/11 08:00 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Noel96]
RobbMiller Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 503
Loc: Midwest
So, assuming a typo with the dotted quarter metronome marking what is the theory (or BIAB technicality) that explains why the song works in the indicated tempo when the chord duration is halved?

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#103165 - 01/26/11 08:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: RobbMiller]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Likely just coincidental.

I still think the entire marking on the sheet was just plain wrong information.


--Mac
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#103166 - 01/26/11 02:18 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: John Conley]
David Walker Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 241
Rob,
Here's the way I do it.. Maybe wrong but it's closer to what John said.
1/4. note = 96 b/m. That's three 1/8 notes equal to 32 b/m. 2X 1/8 = 1/4 note which you are playing in 4 beats per measure. This would put the tempo = 64 b/m for a 1/4 note and 96 b/m for a dotted 1/4 note. therefore, I think the tempo is, John says, 64 b/m. Hope this helps.

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#103167 - 01/27/11 12:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: David Walker]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 12610
Loc: Australia
Hi David,
Quote:

Here's the way I do it.. Maybe wrong but it's closer to what John said.
1/4. note = 96 b/m. That's three 1/8 notes equal to 32 b/m. 2X 1/8 = 1/4 note which you are playing in 4 beats per measure. This would put the tempo = 64 b/m for a 1/4 note and 96 b/m for a dotted 1/4 note. therefore, I think the tempo is, John says, 64 b/m. Hope this helps.



The largest value note that divides as a integer value into both a dotted quarter note and a quarter note is the eighth note (i.e. the dotted quarter note contains 3 x eighth notes and the quarter note contains 2 x quarter notes).

This means that if the two time signatures correlate, the length of time that an eighth note lasts in each time signature must be the same. If the eighth notes are not the same duration in each time signature then the two time signatures cannot possibly equate.

96 BPM
In one minute (60 secs) 96 dotted quarter notes play. This means that in 60 secs, the equivalent of 288 eighth notes must have been played. (3 x 96 = 288)

Therefore the length of a single eighth note = (60 secs) ÷ (288 notes) = 0.208 secs

64 BPM
In one minute (60 secs) 64 quarter notes play. This means that in 60 secs, the equivalent of 128 eighth notes must have been played. (2 x 64 = 128)

Therefore the length of a single eighth note = (60 secs) ÷ (128 notes) = 0.469 secs.

Overall, at 64 BPM (quarter note), the eighth note has a duration of over twice that of the eighth note at 96 BPM (dotted quarter note). This means that a quarter note = 64 BPM is a slower tempo than a dotted quarter note = 96 BPM.

The concept of converting beats per minute from one note value to another another note value confuses many people. It's the "beats per minute" bit that adds a layer of complexity and takes the conversion process into a more complicated sphere of mathematical reasoning.

Regards,
Noel


Edited by Noel96 (01/27/11 07:32 AM)
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#103168 - 01/27/11 08:03 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Noel96]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Somebody must be drinkin' some serious coffee.

Kona?




--Mac
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#103169 - 01/27/11 02:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Mac]
Noel96 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 12610
Loc: Australia
LOL!!!

I think it was the whiskey in the coffee that did it
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#103170 - 01/27/11 08:28 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Mac]
RobbMiller Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/04/10
Posts: 503
Loc: Midwest
The mathematician in me is going to go with Noel's explaination time conversion. I am going to save this thread so the next time it comes up I have the information handy.

However, I think Mac's explanation of the theory is probably the closest:

Quote:

Likely just coincidental. I still think the entire marking on the sheet was just plain wrong information.

--Mac




-Robb

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#103171 - 01/27/11 09:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Noel96]
rkl122 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 494
Loc: NJ
Quote:

.....Basically, as the value of the beat note gets smaller, the equivalent tempo must increase because more of the smaller value notes are required to be played in the same amount of time as the larger note. The relationship between note value and tempo is an inverse one.

.....


Hi Noel, You can see this graphically in the Metronome Pro utility that came in the latest 10Pak. Set the tempo calculator to determine tempo, with duration set to say, 1 minute and bars to an arbitrary number, say 16. Play the metronome for a given time signature. Then change the time signature. The utility is quirky in that you have to open the tempo calculator (where the new tempo will show), then hit ok, and then restart the metronome for the new tempo to actually register audibly and visibly up top. Won't work if the new tempo is below 40, but otherwise it's all there.

FWIW, Ron

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#103172 - 01/27/11 09:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tempo Question [Re: Mac]
Chicago Bob Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 2
That's probably a typo but if there are 96 dotted quarters per minute you could get some algebra going

96 * 1.5x = 1 minute if x is a quarter note
96*1.5 = 144x = 1 minute

but nobody would notate it that way






** I just joined the forum today, HELLO WORLD
** Been using BIAB for 5 years, just upgraded Ver. 11 to 2011 MegaPak
** Starting to explore modern music software again

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PG Music News
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RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

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Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is Here!

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is here! PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 includes many new features and enhancements:

Windows Audio (WASAPI) driver support. This allows for low latency audio recording/playback without requiring ASIO. Note that this supports 1 stereo input plus 1 stereo output at a time. For multiple inputs/outputs, you should continue to use either MME or ASIO.

ABC Notation format support. You can save a track of notation in a popular ASCII text format to import into other programs, or you can paste this format into a user forum as a way of sending the track (usually the melody and chord symbols) to other users without having to attach a file.

The built-in Audio Chord Wizard detection in the Chords window automatically detects the chords of the song, based on the audio data from all non-muted audio tracks. This works similar to the standalone Audio Chord Wizard, except that it uses the current bar lines of the existing song.

Notation Enhancements:
-X/8 time signature support. This is a special method of displaying 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 time signatures in the Notation window.
-The Duplicate previous chord in notation right-click menu lets you quickly duplicate the previous chord (group of notes on same peg) without having to reenter it.
-Delete highlighted notes in notation right-click menu lets you delete all highlighted notes.
-Delete all notes on this peg in notation right-click menu lets you delete all notes on the nearest peg that was clicked on.
-You can now enter Section Numbers. Previously, you could enter letters (A-Z) only, but now you can also enter numbers (1-9).

...a full list of the new features in PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is available at http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.features.htm

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