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In a major key, diatonic harmony, the dimished triad occurs as chord VII. While it's use is limited, it is nonetheless sometimes useful when a softer, gentler dominant sound is required.
In a minor key, diatonic harmony, the dimished triad occurs more than once. It's biggest use, though, is chord II where it has exactly the same function as chord II in major. For example, writing a song in C minor without having Dmb5 available is the same as writing a song in C major without having Dm available.
Is it possible to add this triad to the myriad of chord types that BIAB supports?
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Hi Noel,
It's just a triad, and in BB it is recognized as just Ddim, ( or F dim, Ab dim, or try B dim) or , if you would like to include the b in it, as Ddim7, but Ddim will do for you.
When you say b5 you are - it's about coventions-implying a seventh, but you are not typing it.
BB will not recognize it.
I know what you mean- not being a PC-, and I hope that I as a more or less human being understood your question and could be of any help.
This will do, I think, but when you want to know more:
Ddim in fact could be a sustitute for G7b9, Bb7b9, C#7b9 or E7b9, and as such it is not really a VII'th of the scale, just the upper tensions of a dominant, as dicovered in jazz by C.Parker, but much earlier by Handel with Umlaut.
A real VII'th would be the Dmin7b5, which includes the c, something completely different.
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Hi Noel,
If you want a II in minor, then you should use Dm7b5, but in that case you would prefer that 7'th chord, and not the dimished triad, it is used for the V'th
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Quote:
Hi Noel,
It's just a triad, and in BB it is recognized as just Ddim, ( or F dim, Ab dim, or try B dim) ...
wrong
advanstraeten, it's not about music theory here -> it's about how the program interprets certain entries in the chord list. Currently BiaB simply does not support any distinction between Xdim and Xdim7 ...
Martin
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Thanks for all that useful information advanstraeten, but as Martin says, the dim and dim7 chord names are treated the same by BIAB. I'm just after a simple 3-note chord: using D as an example, Dm7b5 gives me D-F-Ab-C and Ddim (and Ddim7) give me D-F-Ab-Cb; neither of these is what I'm after. At present, it seems there is no way to get D-F-Ab as a triad.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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what about the use of control key 'h' for half-diminished? would that work? 
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The h key just makes the chord a Dm7b5. Using "jazz down the chords" under Edit may help. I feel that the sound of the dim chord is greatly enhanced by the fourth note. It sounds fuller. With your chords changing every bar, it should sound pretty much the same, whether it's a dim or dim7 chord. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Noel96, as has happened for many years, you will quickly get a lot of " +1 " entries in this thread. Martin and Ray have it right. In addition, certain styles seem to be less likely to play the seventh in a Xdim chord; experiment.
Melanie, the "H" key is not really a 'control' key; it is a keyboard shortcut for quicker chord entry. Instead of typing Dm7b5, you type Dh, but the result is the same, a Dm7b5. You should navigate to your \BB folder and read the file called pgshortc.txt which will explain these shortcuts and tell you how to add your own. This is a very helpful feature of BIAB.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Thanks Matt &Ray. Obviously I need to do a lot more reading of the manual!!!
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Melanie, as a new user of only one week, for you to know about " H " is quite remarkable. We can expect good things from you.
This program has so much, no one knows it all. I re-read the manual every so often, and sometimes just go through all the menus to see what's there. After nearly twenty years I'm still picking up new things daily about this great program.
Have fun.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Hi Matt! Actually I have to admit that the h key was mentioned in one of the video tutorials and lurked at the back of my mind as being described as "half-diminished". Which I would interpret as 3 notes - different to a diminished seventh which I understood to be 4 notes. But, I'm a self taught musician so my theory is shakey!! And pg may be interpreting things in their own way. Thanks very much for the encouragement, though, and I'm noodling about with a couple of old tunes at the mo, putting them through the biab/realband treatment and it's a lot of fun and I hope I'll have something to show for it soon that I can point proudly at! I feel pretty confused at the moment with the way that the pg software works, but it seems to be an incredible tool...
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The half-diminished refers to the m7b5 chord.
--Mac
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Aha! I understand it now. Or at least I think I do. diminished chord is 1 3b 5b (Cdim) diminished seventh is 1 3b 5b 7bb (Cdim7) half-diminished is 1 3b 5b 7b (minor seventh) (Cm7b5) just to confuse things: "In most sheet music books, Cdim or C° denotes a diminished seventh chord (a four note chord) with root C, and Cm-5 or Cmb5 denotes a diminished triad with root C. Howevever, in some modern jazz books and some music theory literature, Cdim or C° denotes a diminished triad, while Cdim7 or C°7 denotes a diminished seventh chord." (wikipedia) and "Half-diminished seventh chords are often symbolized as a circle with a diagonal line through it, as in Cø. The terms and symbols for this chord break the usual system of chord nomenclature. Normally a symbol like "Bdim" indicates a diminished triad and "B7" indicates a major triad plus a minor seventh. Thus one would expect the term "Bdim7" to indicate a diminished triad plus a minor seventh. Instead, it means a diminished triad plus a diminished seventh. To make this distinction clear, the term "half-diminished" and the ø symbol were invented. Since the term dim7 (as in Bdim7) meant something else, the accurate but unwieldy term "minor seventh flat five" (as in Bm7(b5)) came to be used." (wikipedia) So if I were to enter Cmb5 in Biab - would it still give me the seventh, I wonder? Learning a lot here! Mel
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It is customary to put the flat sign in front of the number.
As in, "b3, b7" instead of "3b, 7b".
However, when using the lettername of the note, the flat sign does indeed follow: "Ab, Cb".
For the numbers, we say, "flat three" etc.
For the letters we say out loud, "A-flat" etc.
For some reason, the doubleflat (or doublesharp) is handled the same for both lettername and number, we say and write, "7bb" or "Seven Double-flat" -- although it is perfectly fine to say, "The double-flatted seven" also.
--Mac
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Thanks Mac! So here's my edited note: diminished chord (triad) is 1 b3 b5 (Cdim or Cm-5 or Cmb5 but Cdim often implies Cdim7) diminished seventh is 1 b3 b5 7bb (Cdim7) half-diminished is 1 b3 b5 b7 (minor seventh) (Cm7b5) is that right?
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Thanks Mac! I'll get there in the end!
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Just semantics, darlin'.
What is more important is the understanding IMO.
I've known and played with many who may not have had the "proper" nomenclature, but they certainly seemed to know what they were doin' when the lights came up, right?
--Mac
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