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#111567 - 04/15/11 04:04 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: GHinCH]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4390
Quote:



4. practice, practice, practice. If you have a chance to play a gig, do it. There is no better practice than playing four hours on a stage.






This is the best advice of the thread. Remember that playing 3 sets in some little dive is NOT Carnegie Hall, and even if YOU think you sucked, the crowd who doesn't play at all will not know any better. All you can do it play the best you can play.
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I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#111568 - 04/15/11 06:12 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: MarioD]
Kemmrich Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1815
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

None of that happens anymore. Kids take lessons and learn songs, not music. That is sad.




As usual, blanket statements are usually inaccurate -- and this one is inaccurate.




Not totally.

....

Fortunately for me about 95% of the kids I teach have parents who understand the importance of learning to read music. The other 5% don’t stay around long because my teaching philosophy is my way or the highway.




Ha, ha -- I think you supported my thesis.

Kevin

P.S. Pssst ... here's a secret ... Music is about songs. Music is NOT theory. Theory is a useful tool to describe why music works, but it is not the master of the music. Music is the master.
_________________________
Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

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#111569 - 04/16/11 02:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: Kemmrich]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6558
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Quote:

P.S. Pssst ... here's a secret ... Music is about songs. Music is NOT theory. Theory is a useful tool to describe why music works, but it is not the master of the music. Music is the master.




What? Music is not theory? Of course it is, every piece of music out there is based on very solid classical theory concepts.
There are certainly lots of well known star players that don't read or know theory but they're in the minority. When you read the bio's of some of the biggest names in the music biz you'll find a lot of them have music degrees or had parents who made their kid take private lessons from age 5 through high school including the ones who may be known for really basic 2 and 3 chord folk or country stuff. I remember one heavily tattooed 22 year old big star who talked about how he formed his band in the garage but went on to say his mother was a gradute of Julliard, used to do classical concerts, she has a 7 foot Steinway in the living room and he was raised in music since he was a toddler. Yet this kid is doing heavy metal grunge stuff. Everybody knows who Keith Emerson is now but back in 1973 I was in a group that got booked as a warm up act for an ELP show. During set up in the afternoon I hear this fantastic classical piano going out through the sound system. It was him warming up on a 9 foot concert grand.

People need to learn the theory. In general you're not going to get too far without it.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#111570 - 04/16/11 03:31 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: jazzmammal]
Kemmrich Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1815
Quote:

Quote:

P.S. Pssst ... here's a secret ... Music is about songs. Music is NOT theory. Theory is a useful tool to describe why music works, but it is not the master of the music. Music is the master.




What? Music is not theory? Of course it is, every piece of music out there is based on very solid classical theory concepts.
...
Bob




Of course it is not. Yes .. every piece of music out there can be explained by very solid classical theory concepts. But theory didn't come first -- music did. I am not anti-theory, in fact I believe the more the merrier. It is just that when I hear about a 4-year old child strapped to a chair, with their eyelids taped open, forced to watch endless videos on music theory (wait ... that was clockwork orange) -- I just gotta say: That is no way to teach music.

Kevin
_________________________
Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

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#111571 - 04/16/11 03:50 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: Kemmrich]
ZeroZero Offline
Expert

Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 1632
Loc: Bynar
Bob this thread contains much good advice except dont get the idea that you can ignore theory this, as I have said above would be to severely handicap yourself. You need ears too, but ears alone makes for confused mental mapping. Theory will allow you to categorise your learning, tell you what will apply elsewhere, make your understanding clear and transparent, speed up your muscle memory, impress your friends, enable you to communicate with other musicians, help you read, and with hard work, let you bend and break any rule (eventually, only) Learn your triads, your scales (bluies scale too) and their modes, then other chords too.

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#111572 - 04/16/11 05:25 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: ZeroZero]
Bob Z Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 12
Loc: New Jersey
Summary so far ... with my thoughts....

BiaB is an excellent tool for a 1 year player to get to the next level. Sound purchase.

You don't need the Audiophile edition. The difference at home between the two versions is indistinguishable.

Once you have BiaB you will find applications for it that you didn't even think about...

Get and utilize a local instructor in concert with using Biab. Extra points if the instructor uses BiaB in their teachings.

Learn how to develop your ear. Learn via the Jazz method .. harmonic theory.

Have a clear plan as to what you expect BiaB to do and how you are going to utilize it to get to "what" goal. Have clearly defined goals and milestones as progress checks.

Think of learning not as sequential steps but more as ... there are boxes in front of you and each one needs the same attention... Rhythm, Scales and Modes, Chord Vocabulary, Develop your ear, fretboard layout, be able to analyze chord progressions. know the major scales cold in addition to the pentatonics.

Theory is just as important as the playing as that is the language used among players to express their creative ideas.

****

It all sounds great... I just need to digest this guitar purchase for a bit and then get the Biab.

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#111573 - 04/17/11 09:23 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: Bob Z]
Dan45 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 117
Loc: Upstate NY
Bob Z,
I think you are making some very wise decisions. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and a good attitude towards life in general. With an open mind you will surely go far. I've been playing, studying, learning, performing, practicing music for 40 years of my life and I really think that had I discovered BiaB sooner it could have had potentially life-changing effects. (It still will, only a lot of options are no longer open to me b/c of family and career commitments)

But all things aside, as a lesson plan, and as a learning tool, I don't see myself ever exhausting everything that is in here.

It's the one thing I'd have to have if I was stranded on a desert island (with a computer and several instruments to play with, that is )

Let the debates rage on. Over in the guitar forums a lot of guys are still hung up on tube vs. solid state, rosewood vs. maple necks, round wound vs flat wound strings, scale lengths, neck radii, body finish....it goes on and on and on. Stay off that train and just find what gives you joy.

The mind is like a parachute...it only works when it's open.
_________________________
BiaB/RB 2014 OmniPak
Juno-Gi Mobile Synth
Roland GR-20+GK-3 Guitar Synthesizer System
Godin Nylon String Synth Access Guitar

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#111574 - 04/17/11 11:38 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: Dan45]
eddie1261 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4390
Dan, your post made me smile as I thought back to the day when one of my guitar snob friends was going on and on about those "preference" items you mentioned. He was at my house one day and we got into the debate and I set him up with a blindfold test. He SWORE he could tell DiMarzio pickups just by sound. I blindfolded him, handed him my Les Paul with stock pickups and had him play 32 bars. Then I told him "Okay, now play the other one." And I took the strap off that Les Paul, put it right back on the same Les Paul, and handed it to him. And he went on and on about how THESE pickups had "more bite" than the first guitar.

Way too many people are like that. They spout the party line and go on and on about things they really don't know about. Have you known people in your life like I have that change guitar and/or amp every month because they are looking for "the sound" and the fact is that THEY suck? (see: "jam night")

I had to explain to someone once, and it really hurt her feelings, that there is a difference between "someone who knows how to play an instrument" and "a musician". "Someone who plays an instrument" is who you see at jam night playing the 2 songs they know, hanging around the music store a lot and talking a lot of smack about this amp and that guitar and these strings and those picks... but nobody actually ever sees them play. "Musicians" actually understand why "Yesterday" was a great piece or writing, with the verses being 7 segment phrasing rather than the standard 8, or why certain chords belong to the same family and others aren't. I have had my fill of guitar players who think Van Halen invented the right hand on the neck technique when it came from flamenco players (most notably Django Reinhart) who died before Van Halen was even born. Not everybody has the time to invest in formal training, especially as we get older and have lives. I started young, again not everybody had that option, and you can't turn time back. By the time I started college to begin studying toward my BA in Music, I had already been playing 18 years. That's just me.

I will never forget the day some kid told me, after seeing Gary Busey in the Buddy Holly movie, that Buddy Holly did a lot of Linda Ronstadt songs.... oy.

The point of this post, and my original, is that if you are going to do music, do it 100%, not just well enough to impress yourself and your drunken friends by ripping the one 64 bar solo you know. Dazzling the crowd is the easy part, especially playing cover music. When the crowd likes your originals, you have arrived. (PS. They don't like mine. LOL!!! I will keep working.)

Bottom line, do what works for YOU because your situation is unique to you. If you DO have the time and finances to study formally, I endorse it highly. It depends on where you want music to take you. If you want to make it your career, that is one set of circumstances. If you just want to toss a band together to play 40 songs in a bar twice a month, that is another set of circumstances that will take you down a different path. If you would like to someday try writing jingles for TV and such, theory training will help you immensely. It is harder than you think to write something to get your thought across in 28 seconds. That market is dying though as companies now use public domain pop music. (Think John Lennon knew he was writing Revolution for a Nike commercial? At least Todd Rundgren gets paid for his work when Lambeau Field plays Bang on the Drum after a touchdown.)

Be well, and good luck. I am now done with this thread.
_________________________
I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#111575 - 04/17/11 12:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: eddie1261]
John Conley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Local music store.

100 E-lectrical guitars on a wall, very impressive.

Right in the middle is an index card on which is typed...

NO STAIRWAY


I LMAO. Guy in the store said it was from some movie.

2 guys play at the cancer clinic. They have machines A to N numbered that do radiation. I was in F, 35 times. In the huge hall on the main floor is an atrium. On the 2nd floor are 5 doctor clinics with 5 docs each, and the big chemo room with about 100 people in there.

2 guys come in, one with an upright bass the other with an electric guitar. Both are almost 80. The electric guitar looks like he's had it since they were invented all beat up. They have a small amp. American songbook stuff, 1 verse with melody somewhere, the other 2 or 3 or how many they decide by a nod. Bass Solos. Every guitar move known to man in a classy style. You could listen all day.

I talked to them. They knew Oliver Gannon, and the bassist told me Neil Swainson was playing a gig in Toronto. They play on Tuesdays and Thursdays for 2 hours each day. 3 floor atrium makes for a great reverb, but it's laid back.

You don't get cash just get to play. I played on Mondays, but now I go every 6 weeks and I ask for Tuesday appointments at 2 o'clock so they are there. I feel better then.
_________________________
John Conley
Musica est vita

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#111576 - 04/17/11 02:28 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: John Conley]
Bob Z Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 12
Loc: New Jersey
"Let the debates rage on. Over in the guitar forums a lot of guys are still hung up on tube vs. solid state, rosewood vs. maple necks, round wound vs flat wound strings, scale lengths, neck radii, body finish....it goes on and on and on. Stay off that train and just find what gives you joy."

This is funny. I spent the better part of last year on these same forums... to where my head was spinning... I must have spent 3 weeks of my life learning about tone woods... Brazilian rosewood (dalbergia), Cocoloba, Honduran Mahogany... Paul's Private Stock, tightness of the grain... There was one guy that said that 2 guitars being exactly the same with the same strings and pickups could tell the difference between them on whether the top was flamed maple or quilted maple.... something about flamed maple was more linear and the quilted maple gave a more open airy sound... !!

It was the same thing with amps and effects...

So I went down that whole road and thankfully came out pretty unscathed... I ended up getting something that I liked and so far its working out well...

I do believe that with the internet a lot more information is readily available to Joe consumer (obviously) which is a good thing... it helps the consumer make an educated decision on purchases... One just needs to be able to cut through the BS of which there is a lot.. and stay focused...

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#111577 - 04/17/11 03:15 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: Bob Z]
eddie1261 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4390
Reminds me of the time I saw a video on youtube of a rather prominent national level guitar player explaining what effects he uses to get "the clean sound". I watched about 4 minutes of him stepping on stuff and turning knobs. I then went to his web site and found a "mail to" link for him. I emailed him and asked him a simple question.

"Doesn't clean, by definition, mean 'using no effects'? If you want clean, why don't you just turn all that ^%#@ off? You can't get cleaner than guitar through amp with no pedals, right?"

And 6 days later I had a reply that said "Well, yeah, I guess that would work too....."

That was one of the best laughs I ever had.

And the bottom line of that story is "What works for you is the right way."
_________________________
I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#111578 - 04/17/11 07:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: BiaB for a 1 year beginner as education? [Re: eddie1261]
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11353
Loc: Hamlin NY
Quote:

Dan, your post made me smile as I thought back to the day when one of my guitar snob friends was going on and on about those "preference" items you mentioned. He was at my house one day and we got into the debate and I set him up with a blindfold test. He SWORE he could tell DiMarzio pickups just by sound. I blindfolded him, handed him my Les Paul with stock pickups and had him play 32 bars. Then I told him "Okay, now play the other one." And I took the strap off that Les Paul, put it right back on the same Les Paul, and handed it to him. And he went on and on about how THESE pickups had "more bite" than the first guitar.





Your post made me smile. Awhile ago we had two singers. One insisted that analog reverb was the only way to go while the other said digital was the only way to go. Each had brought their reverb units with them. So I did the same thing as you. I did a blind test but kept the analog unit plugged in. Both singers sang then they left the room so I could theologically change reverb units. Both said they could hear the difference between the two takes even though the analog unit was plugged in during both tests. Don’t you just love it!
_________________________
My mind is like my Internet browser: 19 tabs open, 3 of them are frozen & I have no idea where the music is coming from.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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