PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Adults Only Post...Chicago, My Kind Of Town!

Date: 2011-06-05, 1:19AM CDT
Reply to: serv-vnq2u-2421918447@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
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I'm a musician in Chicago. I've been to school twice, and I have been playing something like 26 years (including learning, school years and gigging). And I've finally gotten to a point in my life where I can say something I've been wanting to say for damn near a decade:

Go ---- yourself, Craigslist.

For years I've been looking on your site for gigs and last minute replacements to augment my playing life as a professional. And all I've ever gotten from you is crap, crap crap. The best paying gig I got paid something like 10 dollars an hour on here. I've been offered insultingly low sums of money by people trying to convince me that "That's what market pay is". I've had bands try to convince me to play for free, at the last minute, for their -----y music. I've had churches fail to call me at all, or respond after getting my email.

Nothing's changed. I'm not suddenly rich or well off. I'm just not putting up with your crap anymore. That includes:

*Brides, Grooms, wedding planners, etc., who don't want to pay anything higher than 100 dollars for 4 hours of music. ---- you, ---- your union, ---- your special day. You spend 2000 dollars on flowers but can't cough up 40 extra dollars here and there for the musicians? And you want me to play 4 hours for 100 bucks? Get an ipod and stick it in your ---.

*People who can't add something like 40 dollars to an already low price for my services. If the difference between 100 and 140 dollars (yes, this actually happened) is enough to make the difference between me playing your event and you getting someone else- then you don't need professionals- you need homeless musicians. They will play for that, and I can stop responding to your ads.

*That one guy who got super defensive when I asked about logistics. Listen, -------. I need to know if you have a piano, or if I need to bring one; if you have any music and (this is super important); what you're gonna pay. Let me be frank: I suspected the reason you needed someone to play at the last minute and you didn't specify how long or what pay the gig was, and it was for 3 days was that you wanted to pay jack. I'm not gonna play for you, for nothing. By the by, your voice sucks.

*Kids who keep advertising for players. Hey, it's great you're starting a band. You want to look in "musicians" not here. This is for the grown and sexy.

*Churches looking for "a willingness to grow in a ministry" What I do is a skill. I take hymns and songs and I make you ----ing WEEP when I'm done. You come up to me with tears in your eyes and a willingness to renounce your sinful ways because when I touch a religious song it turns into a spiritual experience. I'm not being vain. I feel that ---- when I do that ----. I don't want to grow with your ministry, because your ministry isn't growing. You don't know anyone, and you don't want to pay anyone. Where I come from, when a person works for you for free and gets nothing in return it's called SLAVERY. Get a budget or sing a capella (which means, literally "at church")

*People using keywords to sucker people into selling ----ty products: You're ----ing up the boolean search. Go derp your ---- somewhere else.

*That one lady who was looking for a pianist for a show: I'm sorry that you got suckered into making the impossible possible. I'm sure you found someone, but 200 dollars for 4 weeks of performances, with 4 to 5 shows a week- wouldn't cover gas.

*That one dude looking for a pianist for another show: I'm glad you're sympathetic to the awful wages the show was producing. 70 dollars for 12 hours of work (in addition to the multiple hours of work to lead to the 12) is ridiculous. What I wonder is, what they were paying you and why you took it in the first place? You're ----ing the market up, dude.

*EVERY ----ING PERSON WANTING LESSONS, AND TRYING TO TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE GONNA PAY:Would you tell a plumber you're only gonna pay 40 dollars? No. But you're telling me an hour of my time is worth 20 dollars a week. It's great and all that your last teacher gave you such a deal; but if I'm coming to your place and teaching you- I'm not going to do it for 20 bucks an hour. My teachers didn't cost that, and I know some ----. I could kill you with some Bach. Trust me. I have some students now, and in 2 years they've gone from "What's a scale?" to "Debussy is some deep ----, dude." Cough up some dough.

And finally:

*People who post ridiculous amounts of money for large amounts of work. Whether I'm ignoring you, because you're ridiculous; or occasionally indulging you because I think I can negotiate a better wage; or listening to you rant about how "Music isn't a real job" all I really want to do is hit you very hard in the face, and kick your ---. Stop wasting everyone's time. You obviously are just waiting for the sweet release of death.

So adios Craigslist. Better luck with the young blood who don't know any better!!

From G-Daddy....hope I didn't embarrass anyone with this guy's letter...but...you know me!!



-Edited for language-

Forum rule #2: There will be no profanity or foul language. Any disruptive language will be removed and you may receive sanctions.

Seems like a bitter person to me...
After all, he chose a profession and chose to be an entrepreneur. That means creating your own income...
If you don't want to go the extra mile you'd better find a job where you don't have that responsibility.

Hey, I am my own boss and I will decide what I will take for a gig. If you don't want to pay the price, no problem. Good luck with finding what you're looking for and have a nice party.

This weekend I played a private gig. These people told me my price was pretty high, but they heard some good comments about my show, so they decided to book me anyway. They usually went for cheaper artists.
At the end of the show the guy paying for the whole thing came up to me and told me I was worth every penny I charge and more than that (and so he gave me a very good tip to proof it )
They had several parties before with other (much cheaper) artists, but they never had such a fantastic party as this one. Next time they won't book my "colleagues": they will call me! (the man's own words)

Maybe the market for live music is different here in the Netherlands. Fortunately bar-owners, club-owners etc. here see live-music as a way to attract customers and to do something extra for their regular customers. They are willing to pay the price and expect a certain level of quality. I do land gigs in places that had cheap artists before. They always tell me that you get what you pay for.

If you are charging too much you're out of the game. But if you don't charge enough you won't be taken seriously. Well, that goes for the music-scene over here.

Wow, that brought up memories of the past. Club owners who wouldn't pay and always tried to slip out the door and the drunk who kept trying to grab my mike while I was playing till I smashed him in the mouth with the headstock of my Telecaster.

I hired a Biker as my bouncer. I never had a problem with anyone again. Of course this was NY City in the late 1970s.
Actually, the Telecater incident, happened in Binghamton, NY, 1989.
Wayne,

Also from Craig's
Well,
also a "pro" drummer of many decades, meaning I made money, had contracts,etc-I would play benefits for free, but an establishment that makes money while I'm on stage will provide compensation, which,of course would be pre-arranged,-DUH!-new bands that play FOR FREE have no impact on bands with following,good reputations. I know this to be true, so as a "pro",if you think they do, more analysis of various markets are needed, and a basic understanding of Business 101. You ask for what you want, if the other party cannot provide agreement-you don't play there. Is margarita-grill important to play at, with no parking, and small turnout? Is any downtown venue going to have 300+ fans bangin the night away. Nay say I, you must go to bigger citie's for payolla my freind. I have a few freinds that do quite well on the local bar scene, and get compensated. However, you love music so much you want to play free locally, that's cool, what kind of impact are you having on your market?-NONE.
Just because a thousand people(out of the 84,000+)in Buncombe county can drive thru mickey dees for $4.00, dosent mean everyone does,-I prefer the Texas Roadhouse,Providence 620-get the idea? Lower cost options take nothing away from the higher price places-and neither do bands.
Argument is now null and void--and after 4 decades, thousands of hours and dollars invested in myself,and equipment-again, only churches, and certain benefits-get free play from me, bro.
You guys that play for free-rock on, I did decades ago, so did most of the beoches whining here.Go to school, get some business background,marketing, social strategies and skills-and ramp it up. Playing barsi s only a stepping stone.
No flames, no hate, just reality-look in the mirror and ask yourself if you played well today?on your instrument?and on craigslist?Or did you hide behind the internet mask of anonimity?


Frank Johnson, DrumMan-Asheville

G Daddy you deserve pay commensurate for your abilities, hold out for it, and expect it. With the price of gas, and the cost of living it is sad what some want to pay. remeber though, you have to have working plumbing, but live entertainment is optional.

The only thing that raises an eyebrow on me is your comments about church ministries. First off i am always shocked and appalled when i hear of paid gigs at churches! Wow what ever happened to receive free give free? Charging a church to inspire faith and hope is like taking credit cards in a soup line!

I guess the thing that makes me shake my head is that a church will pay money for entertainment. Wow just saying that make me sad. Almost as sad as someone ranting and using foul language to deride a church for not wanting to pay them to, ... what was the comment? take their hymms and make them F---ing cry?!?!? Someone missed the point here altogether. Are not church hymms and worship songs supposed to be elements of praise to God, somewhat similar to prayers? If you have to hire outside musicians is that not sort of missing the point big time, is it really praise from the heart of the worshipper? Well i also never understood paid clergy, but that is a arguement for another day.

Can you imagine Jesus hiring a gigging musician to come in and rock the temple! More likely to chase them out with a braided rope!

Robh, and others who may think these were my comments on Craig's List.

This post was originally made on the Yahoo Jazz Guitar Web site...so, although funny ha-ha, to me....I'm really just a bystander to this diatribe...
and in actuality I'm long gone from the Chicago scene, and when I played through the years, I always had day jobs, first as a trade association manager, then over fifteen years with Merril Lynch and other brokerage firms in Chicago and New York.

Yowza...yowza!!!

@Robh: The post wasn't written by GDaddy. It is copy/pasted from craigslist written by some bittered musician from Chicago (GDaddy is from Florida).

So whoever it is that wrote that post originally, how is it the fault of craigslist that he will work for almost nothing just to work?

Personally I have used craigslist for shopping for used gear but NEVER for any kind of referrals. If only due to the logic that if someone is so "un-well connected" in the music community that he has to advertise for players on craigslist rather than pull out the rolodex, he probably isn't worth the time anyway. I suppose it's fine for kids who are starting their first band and want to play the list of 15 cliche songs, but not for a professional.

Bottom line, I have a hard time imagining anybody put a gun to the guy's head and forced him to play for peanuts....

My bad!! Sorry G-Daddy!

Anywho......

One of the most memorable Chi Town Massacres was when Steve Dahl had his burn Rock & Roll Festival at Cubs Park..."the night they "thought" they had burned R&R Down"...
Now that made lots of people happy....Sinatra, Benedetto, Damone, Jonie James (Who the hell was Joanie James??? I think she sang ballads like..."Fly the Ocean in a Silver Plane...but...You Belong To Me", and she was married to one of the biggest Radio Hosts
the town ever had,...Howard Miller!!

Oh, memories. I even joined Local 5 there when Petrillo was still alive....almost the equal of Jimmy Hoffa. Now, those were the days of "scale"...or...."you talkin' to me?"...

Ahh, all the days I spent playin' in those dirty backalley dives...and if you weren't dumb, like Joey Bishop, ya wouldn't get all your fingas broken....

Over the years I have made numerous attempts to establish musical contacts via craigslist. Nothing bad has happened, but I can't recall any that have worked.

I did have what must be the unique experience of having someone be a no-show at an audition which they called!

.
>>>...I guess the thing that makes me shake my head is that a church will pay money for entertainment...Are not church hymms and worship songs supposed to be elements of praise to God, somewhat similar to prayers?...>>>

I have joined a church that has a paid house band. They get paid quite well, actually, and they are worth it. The music brings a lot of people back.

On the other side, I have seen the kind of music you get when you just ask for volunteers. Too often it is a bunch of middle aged white guys with guitars, singing variations of the theme of "Kum Ba Ya." I head for the exit when this stuff kicks off.

I am pretty traditional myself. I find the congregational singing of traditional hymns to be uplifting and inspiring. Unfortunately, these days, I find myself being the only person in the congregation actually singing. In the 21st century we have no tradition of making our own music. More's the pity.

If you have to entertain people to get them in church is something deeply spiritual missing? Is not Church about being fed spiritual food from God's word. A deep desire to be close to him, and to assemble with his people should be the draw to those "conscience of their spiritual needs" Matt 5:3.

Music is elemental to worship. It is part of our praise to God, and fundamental, but does not paying a praise band smack of commercialism? A grab at member money, fill the seats and fill the collection plate.

If you have to pay a band to sing praises to God something seems wrong. Do they even beleive what they sing or is it just a business? Particularly curious is an outside band hired to come in and perform, do you know their background and beliefs? Is their form of worship compatible with the congregations, or are they wolves in sheeps clothing?

Bible readers remember how Jesus responded when the temple workers were carrying on commerce in the temple, and charging people high prices for animals for sacrifice. Not once but twice he drove them out, and it was one of the only thing recorded about him that made him tryley angry. A good question to ask might be is not paying a high prices for praise bands kind of the same principle, since the money has to come from tithes or collections (another subject for another time)?

Everyone has their own take on this stuff, but for me that kind of takes away from the dignity of worship. Nothing displays devotion to a cause more than singing about it from the heart, especially Worship of God! If I have to pay someone to do it, the i wonder about the motivation. If I have to be entertained to show an interest in God i wonder about the devotion.

Just a few musings to ponder ......