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#126557 - 08/27/11 07:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18914
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
*edit sorry so long -
My little home town did a little civil disobedience last week. It was fun, and got the point across, I think. It was a beautiful thing that pulled the community together in a staggering way, It was really amazing. Federal government authority tried to shutdown a free fun volunteer event that used to consist of a couple hundred people getting together to float down the river. Once they started to press charges on people and make it illegal to float, it tuned into an event where 2500 people showed up to float, 10,000 showed up along the river to watch, and local businesses had bands playing along the river, beer tents, you name it. It was a party with a purpose. People even ran volunteer shuttles from the end point back to where cars were parked.

The coast guard went as far as to shutdown the river, meaning no boating volunteers could show up to help (of which there were always dozens; there has never been a fatality or serious injury in 20 years due to volunteers and now they had excluded them). They said only law enforcement boats could be out there, so the thousands of sspectators were there with cameras in hand to see how law enforcement was going to handle it. Happy to say with this kind of pressure they simply helped people that floated out too far. Even the ones that floated across to Canada accidently. They even ended neeeding a helicopter to keep an eye on all the floaters that showed up.
It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.


Edited by rharv (08/27/11 07:22 AM)
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#126558 - 08/27/11 08:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

It’s not enough to ask what’s legal, … but to ask what is right.





and herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"

And in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law (based on the majority's idea of what is right)

[rant]
Unfortunately, the majority seems to be overruled at every turn by judges attempting to legislate from the bench.

When a few powerful people override the will of the many, that ain't democracy, that's oligarchy, and its just a step away from the dark ages when the nobles had total control of the peasants, and the peasants had no voice at all.
[/rant]

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#126559 - 08/27/11 08:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
regarding the law about "unfinished product" leaving the country...

One company's "finished product" is another company's "raw material"

The company whose finished product is iron ore, sells it to the steel mill.
To the steel mill the ore is not finished, it is a resource. AT the end of the steel mill's process, their final product is steel in one form or another

Other businesses buy the steel as a resource for their products, for example, car parts. Which get sold to other companies who use the parts to make assemblies, which get sold to other companies who buy the assemblies and make complete cars.

Bottom line is, which product is the finished product? It depends on your company's charter. If your company starts with whole trees and processes them to a point where specialty sizes of wood are sold to other manufacturers, then what you sell is your company's finished product.

If the question of "final product" is the crux of this government action, that's just crazy!! ESPECIALLY regarding chunks of wood! Such a law, if interpreted the way it appears to be interpreted in this case, would effectively prevent all export of wood or other natural resources

(bonus question: "what is the end product of government intervention?")
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#126560 - 08/27/11 10:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
GDaddy Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 897
Loc: Homosassa , Florida
I was researching this law a little bit. Apparently, the Lacey Act of 1900 (designed to protect species from overhunting and prevent the interstate transportation of certain plants) was expanded in 2008 to include logging.
I was afraid I was going to have to blame this on Bush but...


He vetoed the Farm Bill that this expansion was attached to. Twice! (Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008.)

Bush's veto was overridden by congress.

Yep. Guitar players can truly blame the democrats for this mess. For the record, I am the proud owner of two fantastic, American-made Gibson electric guitars.
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#126561 - 08/27/11 11:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3900
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Fear the government that fears your guitars.
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#126562 - 08/27/11 11:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: GDaddy]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
If our elected officials would honor and support the US Constitution, most if not all of these kind of problems could not exist.

The Constitution needs to be honored, followed, obeyed - and *ENFORCED* ACROSS THE BOARD.

Any other situation is headed towards a situation that will be very ugly, I'm afraid.

History shows us that tyrants always underestimate the power of the good people.

While sitting out this storm, I took advantage of it to let my two grandsons view my copy of, "The Patriot" last night. With a little bit of explanation and explaining from Grandpa along the way through. Funny how the kids get it right away. I guess it takes years of sorry schooling and maybe a post graduate degree before equivocation replaces decision process.


--Mac
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#126563 - 08/27/11 12:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
KeithS Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 896
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Quote:



Wouldn’t Obama be proud for part of his legacy to be taking down Gibson, Martin, Taylor and Fender guitar companies for “letter of the law” instead of “spirit of the law” violations ?????????????





Filing false docunents us not a letter of the law vs a spirit of the law violation and Martin, Fender and Taylor have not been accused of any wrong doing.
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#126564 - 08/27/11 12:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: rharv]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3354
Loc: WV, USA
Rharv,

Quote:

It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.




Way to go rharv! That’s exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. It’s great to see a community rally together and remind authorities who they actually work for.
………………………………………………………..

Pat,

Quote:

herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"




Glad to see you weigh in. Rharv’s communities civil disobedience is a perfect example of doing what is right vs. what is legal, so I don’t think it needs much comment, especially since I’ve been talking so much.

Quote:

in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law




I’m not taking you to task my friend, but this is incorrect. We don’t live in a democracy, but a representative Republic, so voters have very little, if any, say over individual laws. We elect representatives to make those decisions for us. They are then answerable to the voters for their actions.

Democracy in its purest form is nothing more than “mob rule”. I like this quote from Wiki:

Quote:

In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, compared republican government to democratic government, and found democracy wanting.




Our Constitution is meant to prevent the “majority” from taking away the rights of the “few” and to limit the powers of the government. The government should fear the “people”, and not the other way around.

Shifting gears a little, your treatise on “finished product” vs. “raw materials” was spot on and fits the Gibson situation perfectly.
……………………………………………………………….

Mac,

“The Patriot” is one of my all time favorite movies and should be required viewing in our schools. It lays out the sacrifices and hard decisions made by our forefathers better than anything I’ve ever seen.
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Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#126565 - 08/27/11 12:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: KeithS]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3354
Loc: WV, USA
Keith,

Quote:

Some facts that the Gibson Press release fails to mention:




You appear to be assuming that Gibson is guilty, while I’m assuming they are innocent. I think the truth will be found to be similar to what Pat Marr laid out in his definition of “finished goods” vs. “raw materials”. Hence, my letter of the law vs. spirit of the law comment.

My inclusion of Martin, Taylor and Fender is simply a logical extension of “who’s next” on the government hit list if they’re successful in their assault on Gibson.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (08/27/11 02:13 PM)
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................................
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#126566 - 08/27/11 02:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Ryszard]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4376
This is the "wood" version of RIAA suing grandmothers to make a statement to the public.

If this government has nothing better to do than raid a company like Gibson but NOT raid Fender, Martin, Taylor etc.... then this is selective enforcement meant to send a message. Go after the biggest "drug dealer" and the little guys on the street corner will get the message too.

Economy slow? Let's invent reasons to collect fines from people. Let's see what we can do to chase ANOTHER business out of the USA and have them move to some place where the laws are a little less draconian.

I really hate authority.

This is the same government that killed 58,000 of my comrades in Vietnam and sprayed the rest of us with Agent Orange, which caused diabetes in many of us? And that same government that now treats us like crap when we need their help? Now they want to ruin our guitars?
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#126567 - 08/27/11 02:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: eddie1261]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Please do take note of the political party that was in charge during the Vietnam conflict...


--Mac
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#126568 - 08/27/11 02:37 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Mac]
eddie1261 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4376
Quote:

Please do take note of the political party that was in charge during the Vietnam conflict...


--Mac




Hmmmm... Mr Kennedy, then Mr Johnson, and it ended when Mr Nixon got in. And now we are back to "Let's keep them employed as soldiers rather than bring them back to no jobs, all while keeping people who make guns, bullets, boots, vehicles, uniforms, and prepacked meals working..."

Another "Hmmmm"......

Wasn't part of the last campaign "We will end the war. Democrat = no war, Republican = more war"? Seems like in his 3rd year at the helm, we are still there..... wouldn't that amount to "My whole sales pitch was a lie"?
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#126569 - 08/27/11 04:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: GDaddy]
GDaddy Offline
Expert

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 897
Loc: Homosassa , Florida
Gibson used to use Brazilian rosewood until importation of that wood was banned.
Importation of Brazilian Rosewood was banned in 1992 until CITES (some exceptions to be discussed). It was and is considered the king of tonewoods for acoustic guitars, both because of its tonal qualities and the wonderful chocolate brown color with great swirling grain. All of those $200,000 -$500,000+ pre-war Martin D-28s that are considered the Stradivarius of acoustic guitars are Brazilian Rosewood with Adirondack Spruce tops (with forward-shifted bracing).

Again, although Gibson used some Brazilian Rosewood, Gibson's always been more into maple and mahogany acoustic guitars.

It's still possible to get Brazilian (lower-quality Brazilian) at a high price, but the luthier has to have a lot of paperwork showing that the wood came from a tree cut down before 1992. That era of getting Brazilian from old stumps is an era that's pretty well passed, however.

Madagascar Rosewood was illegal to import (under Madagascar rules, I believe) for years, but a coup made it possible to get some into the country over the last decade or so. It's the closest thing, tonally and in looks, to Brazilian that we've seen.

East Indian is nice, but nothing like Madagascar or Brazilian Rosewood.

All of that is said with respect to using the wood as a tonewood, and not just as a fretboard or the veneer on a headstock.

And using Franklin Titebond instead of hide glue makes a difference, I believe. Think of pulling away old white glue. It still has a rubbery feel to it. Hide glue is brittle. When you want to transfer vibration from one wood component to another, rubbery white glue, no matter how well cured and now matter how thin the coat, dampens the vibration. That's what I hear from luthiers and based on guitars I have that are made with hide glue, I believe I can hear the difference.

Not to get technical but C.F. Martin Guitars are not a competitor of Gibson guitars.
C.F. Martin makes acoustic guitars exclusively. Gibson does not, they mainly make Electric Guitars. From the famous Les Paul model to the popular 'SG' model, the 'Flying Vee', and the semi-hollow body ES-335 'Dot', and like BB King's ES-345 'Lucille'.

The competitor for Gibson is Fender Guitars and their Stratocaster and Telecaster models. Many famous players like Eric Clapton start out with the Gibson Les Paul then switch to the Fender 'Strat' for the different sound a Strat makes. (Clapton's Fender Strat 'Blackie' sold at an auction at Christie's in London for a whopping $959,000!)

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#126570 - 08/27/11 04:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Quote:

in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law




I’m not taking you to task my friend, but this is incorrect. We don’t live in a democracy, but a representative Republic, so voters have very little, if any, say over individual laws. We elect representatives to make those decisions for us. They are then answerable to the voters for their actions.

Democracy in its purest form is nothing more than “mob rule”. I like this quote from Wiki:

Quote:

In modern republics such as the United States and India, the executive is legitimized both by a constitution and by popular suffrage. James Madison, the fourth President of the United States, compared republican government to democratic government, and found democracy wanting.




Our Constitution is meant to prevent the “majority” from taking away the rights of the “few” and to limit the powers of the government. The government should fear the “people”, and not the other way around.






for what it's worth Bob, I chose my words carefully. Note in the quote above that I did NOT say we are a DEMOCRACY but that we are a "democratic society" (Which basically means the people get to vote). I'm quite aware that the USA is not a pure democracy. The point that I was trying to make is that a government "of the people by the people and for the people" should not have laws that the people don't want shoved down their throats.

Since it is impossible to please everybody all the time, I added the word MAJORITY assuming that elected officials should theoretically represent their constituents, which theoretically should be the majority most (but not all) of the time.

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#126571 - 08/27/11 06:59 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3354
Loc: WV, USA
Point taken my friend. When I saw "democratic society", I read that as synonymous with the word democracy. My mistake.

Take care.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#126572 - 08/27/11 10:37 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
redguitars Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 618
Loc: US
All the acoustic guitars I've owned have had Rosewood sides and backs except for one Gibson J-45.
I had no idea that Brazilian Rosewood was legal up until 1992. I may have an acoustic with Brazilian Rosewood. How would I tell?

I just know that when I shopped around for my Marin HD28 I played dozens of them and disliked all of them for the price. I bought mine from Gruhn Guitars in Nashville over the phone and it is still the best acoustic guitar I ever played. I know it was built around 1989-1990. I wonder what kind of Rosewood it is. It's very dark brown.

Is Brazilian Rosewood more prone to small cracks? I did have one problem with the side having a small split starting. Matin fixed it and put in side bracing which I see is now in all newer HD28s.

Wayne,
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#126573 - 08/27/11 11:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: redguitars]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3354
Loc: WV, USA
Wayne,

I pulled the spec sheet from my custom Martin that I had built in 1992 to double check the rosewood. Since the guitar is custom made to specs, it doesn’t have a model number, it just has CUSTOM stamped where the model number goes. Essentially, it’s a HD28 with an oversized sound hole with double herringbone rosettes, extended fretboard (2 extra frets), Venetian cutaway and 1940’s style scalloped bracing. If it had a model #, it would be HDC282R.

Oops, …………sorry, you didn’t ask about my guitar, but I love that sucker!

The wood Martin used on both of our guitars is Indian Rosewood and is a beautiful and great sounding hardwood. Perfectly legal and a fantastic alternative to Brazilian. Another great and more beautiful alternative is Cocobolo. It’s a Central American hardwood.
_________________________
Bob
................................
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#126574 - 08/28/11 09:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
redguitars Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 618
Loc: US
Hi Bob,
Your Martin sounds like a real keeper.
I remember how long it took me to find mine. I tried so many D28s and they didn't sound good for me.
Most of the HD28s I tried weren't for me, but when I found mine, I knew it was for me.
As soon as I got it I put on a set of my favorite strings. From the first chords I was in love and I still am.
I had a lot of acoustics on my life and they all just came and went. Some were very good ones, but my Martin was the first and now the only one I ever play. I had an under saddle tranducer put in and it took me almost 5 years for me to have it installed. I was just so afraid it would change the tone.
Also Martin's warranty is the best in the world.
Glad to hear about your Martin. It's great to have a guitar that makes you happy.
Every guitar I have now I bought new. It's amazing how I think of my Telecaster as my new electric guitar and it's 23 years old already.
One of my 12 Strings is from 1977. Time sure does fly.

Thanks for the info on the Indian Rosewood. It sounds great.
Wayne,
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#126575 - 08/28/11 10:06 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Point taken my friend. When I saw "democratic society", I read that as synonymous with the word democracy. My mistake.

Take care.




Bob,
your reply was more gracious than mine. Thanks for your good will.
Apologies for my sharp reply...

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#126576 - 08/28/11 11:00 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
GDaddy Offline
Expert

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 897
Loc: Homosassa , Florida
Only play country music on it that ought to piss off the dems

PAT:
I still have my XV-5080, with some boards in it. Key part of my hardware!



Edited by GDaddy (08/28/11 11:04 AM)
_________________________
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