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#126547 - 08/26/11 04:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
GDaddy Offline
Expert

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 897
Loc: Homosassa , Florida
Pardon me, but "illegals (who are "clean")...are no longer subject to deportation...
perhaps you haven't all kept up with OBama and Atty. Gen. Eric Holder's decision of last week, waving deportation of all latinos who happen to be esconsed here without papers...
again circumventing American laws.

Might as well also bring up again, as I already have in the posts I've made originating this entire thread, that this twosome gave the CIA (which isn't supposed to be involved
in law domestic matters) the OK to join the big city police departments in co-opting the
growing number of radical muslim cells operating in THIS country.
We are being controlled by a bunch of Constitution-Breaking revolutionaries from the
far left!! Let's just call the Fish & Wildlife Service, along with all the other Fed
Agencies, an affront...getting older and bolder, with OBama and Holder get their way!

WHERE IS OUR WILL POWER TO STAND UP TO GOVERNMENT GOONS, POLITICIANS THAT THREATEN!!!
_________________________
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
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AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
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Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3

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#126548 - 08/26/11 05:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: GDaddy]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Quote:

WHERE IS OUR WILL POWER TO STAND UP TO GOVERNMENT GOONS, POLITICIANS THAT THREATEN!!!




GDaddy,

I believe it’s right here from the CEO of Gibson:

Quote:

Hundreds of items were seized from Gibson’s Nashville facilities including rosewood and ebony in various forms, shipping documents, travel records, guitars including several Les Pauls, product specifications and hard drives, according to the search warrant. A Memphis facility was also raided Wednesday.

Juszkiewicz said the lost day of productivity could cost the company $1 million.

“What is more troubling is that the Justice Department’s position is that any guitar that we ship out of this facility is potentially obstruction of justice and will be followed with criminal charges,” said Juszkiewicz, who added later that he plans to defy the government and resume operations. “I have taken personal responsibility. I have instructed our staff to continue building product.”




I hope none of you guys have a custom guitar on order from Gibson! Your door may be the next one the Feds kick in!
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#126549 - 08/26/11 06:41 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
The Gibson situation might be the wakeup call for many musicians, but this kind of thing has been going on for quite some time, actually.

Perhaps the greatest absurdity noted here is the guy whom the Feds are trying to make pay a $90,000 fine for raising about 200 dollars worth of RABBITS, without, get this: A Federal License to sell rabbits.

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/05/29/feds-fine-nixa-rabbitt-raiser-90k-for-making-200/


--Mac
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#126550 - 08/26/11 09:36 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
John Conley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Way too much government everywhere.

Liberalism. The policies pertaining to a free man.

We've lost sight of that.
_________________________
John Conley
Musica est vita

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#126551 - 08/26/11 10:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: John Conley]
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 3828
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Doesn't "free trade" mean Gibson is "free" to buy wood wherever the hell they want to? Wasn't that the idea of the whole thing?

My IT job went to India but they are worried where Gibson buys wood?
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#126552 - 08/26/11 10:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: eddie1261]
redguitars Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/29/07
Posts: 618
Loc: US
If this applies to owners of instruments who have to have documentation of the woods used on their guitars, how?
How long ago was this ebony wood protected? I own two 12 string guitars, one is 36 years old and the other is 35.
They both have Ebony fingerboards and one has an Ebony Bridge. I dont recall the use of Ebony being a problem.
I knew about the rosewood. Of course I'm not leaving the country with my guitars but I did buy these guitars new and I still have the User Guides and Brochures and none of them say where the wood came from. It was many years until I found out that Sitka Spruce was Alaska.
There nothing provided with my instuments as to what country the fingerboard woods came from.

I had a 1968 Gibson Les Paul that had an Ebony fingerboard. Was that not legal then and there was nothing that came with the guitar that stated where the fingerboard wood was from.

How can I or anybody document these instruments? These are not 1920s vintage. These guitars were all bought new in my lifetime by me.

I'm stumped.

Wayne,
_________________________
"My Music Page"

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#126553 - 08/26/11 11:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
jazzmammal Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6343
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Quote:

Facing criminal charges that might have put him in prison for years, Mr. Vieillard pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor count of violating the Lacey Act, and was handed a $17,500 fine and three years probation.



I guess I should be glad I sold all of my vintage instruments.

Anyone wanna defend the Feds after reading this story?




Sorry, I'm not buying Mr. Viellard's problem here. Years ago I had a company that exported cars from Canada to the US. We were dealing with Customs, the EPA, DOT and various State DMV's for titling. We researched the legalities and hired a Customs Broker. Brokers are licensed and bonded and if anything like this goes wrong, they're on the hook unless they can prove their client lied to them and went off on their own.

Six years ago I decided to buy and rebuild a 5'8" Kanabe grand piano. I knew absolutely squat about it but after several months researching it on the internet, I completely disassembled it including destringing, removed the plate, refinished the plate myself, disassembled, repaired and rebuilt the lyre, removed the legs, refinished the soundboard, did the whole thing except for the keyboard action. That I sent out to a tech after I replaced the felts. Then I stained and refinished it in natural mahogany using shellac and French polishing. I learned all this with no woodworking or piano rebuilding background using the internet. I even formed a paper company so I could buy all the proper parts from a couple of piano supply houses who won't sell to the general public. During the course of this I became aware of the ivory problem concerning old piano keys, how you can and can't import them, all that stuff. I simply clicked on a few links and read all about it. I also met some very cool piano rebuilders in the LA area and they knew all about importing old pianos too. If an amateur like me found out about it then a pro like Viellard surely must have known and if he didn't use a customs broker to handle several tens of thousands of antique European pianos then he's a total idiot and I have no sympathy for him. If he did use a Customs broker then this quote is not telling the whole story. He may have been fined and put on probation but he also would have had a nice lawsuit against his broker.

Whether or not all these laws are proper or not or whether there's too much government in our lives and I completely agree there is, is besides the point here. Citizens of this country have had to navigate a byzantine bunch of government agencies and their idiot functionaries for a hundred years complaining all the way. Smart businessmen learn to deal with it, idiots get screwed. That's the way it is. We'll learn where Gibson fits into all this soon enough.

Also, being worried about the Feds coming to your door is not what this is part of the discussion is about. It's about taking an old instrument across an international border. That's when you need all the documentation, not just having it sitting in your house. I'm not defending that situation, it sounds pretty stupid to me but if that's what's happening then everybody just needs to learn to deal with it and hope we can change things after the next election.

Bob
_________________________
Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#126554 - 08/27/11 12:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: redguitars]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Wayne,

Quote:

How can I or anybody document these instruments?




You can’t, and neither can the manufacturer. That’s the point. So if you decided to spend the winter traveling abroad with one of your 12 strings, you’d be risking losing your guitar and facing fines or jail time for violation of the Lacey Act.

It wouldn’t take a conviction, …just an accusation. You could probably win in court since you have original documents, but the legal fees would be more than the guitar is worth.

It’s easy to poo poo this type of statement, but if someone had said you’d be fined $90,000 for raising $200 worth of rabbits over the period of a year because you didn’t have a federal license to raise rabbits, …… we would have probably poo poo’d that too.

What really frustrates me is there’s so many people, even on this forum, who are willing to defend ridiculous laws that prosecute American citizens and companies for violation of laws in other countries. Especially when the other country isn’t even pushing for prosecution, as in the Gibson case.

This country was founded on the principle of taking the government to task, especially when it’s wrong. Just because there’s a law against something doesn’t make it wrong. Just illegal.

We’d all probably be surprised at how many laws we’ve broken without even knowing it. Even in our bedrooms! LOL. But ignorance is no excuse!
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#126555 - 08/27/11 12:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Bob,

Quote:

Whether or not all these laws are proper or not or whether there's too much government in our lives and I completely agree there is, is besides the point here.




I disagree. That's exactly the point here, ... at least for me.

There has to be a breaking point where people say "enough is enough"! Change in the oval office would help, ... but it's not a fix. The occupent can change every four years. There needs to be a change that doesn't rely on who's in office.

The only way to do that is change the law. Pointing out a stupid law and refusing to support it is a good start to doing that, but getting a law changed is another thing entirely. Shucks, ...... it takes an act of Congress! It's a lot easier to put a law on the books than it is to take it off, (because that means they have to admit they were wrong in the first place for passing it).

The Feds, state and local officials all make decisions every day about which laws they are going to enforce. If they know they'll lose their jobs or have the public turn on them for enforcing a particular law, they don't enforce it.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#126556 - 08/27/11 01:04 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
(Okay, … I’m on a rant, …but it’s against government intrusion in our lives).

Bob,

I’m surprised that you’re willing to support a law just because it’s on the books. (Sorry, ... but if a law is stupid, ...everyone should disobey it just out of principle. I'm not a "rule of law" kinda guy.) If enough people contacted their representatives about it, …… the case would “magically” go away. (Once again, ... selective enforcement). I couldn’t possibly care less about whether Gibson is guilty or not. That was never my point. It is whether the Feds should be devoting resources to prosecute Gibson for violating India's laws, ... whenever India thinks of Gibson as a good customer. It's a political agenda by the Obama administration. Not a worthwhile use of federal resources.

Even a jury doesn't have to rule according to the law in their decisions, even if they know the defendant is guilty of the charges. (Selective enforcement again.)

Civil disobedience is another founding principle of this country. The Boston Tea Party was illegal as it gets, but it sparked a movement that changed a nation. (Disclaimer: No, …… I’m not a member of the Tea Party). It was another case of people not supporting a law because they knew it was wrong.

It’s not enough to ask what’s legal, … but to ask what is right.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (08/27/11 02:38 AM)

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#126557 - 08/27/11 07:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18496
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
*edit sorry so long -
My little home town did a little civil disobedience last week. It was fun, and got the point across, I think. It was a beautiful thing that pulled the community together in a staggering way, It was really amazing. Federal government authority tried to shutdown a free fun volunteer event that used to consist of a couple hundred people getting together to float down the river. Once they started to press charges on people and make it illegal to float, it tuned into an event where 2500 people showed up to float, 10,000 showed up along the river to watch, and local businesses had bands playing along the river, beer tents, you name it. It was a party with a purpose. People even ran volunteer shuttles from the end point back to where cars were parked.

The coast guard went as far as to shutdown the river, meaning no boating volunteers could show up to help (of which there were always dozens; there has never been a fatality or serious injury in 20 years due to volunteers and now they had excluded them). They said only law enforcement boats could be out there, so the thousands of sspectators were there with cameras in hand to see how law enforcement was going to handle it. Happy to say with this kind of pressure they simply helped people that floated out too far. Even the ones that floated across to Canada accidently. They even ended neeeding a helicopter to keep an eye on all the floaters that showed up.
It was pretty cool to see a community pull together and say 'we've had enough of your intruding in our lives' and do something about it. It turned into an issue of right to assemble, and right to enter public waterway, and the community wanted to retain those rights.


Edited by rharv (08/27/11 07:22 AM)
_________________________
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#126558 - 08/27/11 08:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7436
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

It’s not enough to ask what’s legal, … but to ask what is right.





and herein lies part of the problem... because different people define "what is right" differently... so you have to go by "what is law"

And in a democratic society, it should be the majority of voters who decide what is law (based on the majority's idea of what is right)

[rant]
Unfortunately, the majority seems to be overruled at every turn by judges attempting to legislate from the bench.

When a few powerful people override the will of the many, that ain't democracy, that's oligarchy, and its just a step away from the dark ages when the nobles had total control of the peasants, and the peasants had no voice at all.
[/rant]

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#126559 - 08/27/11 08:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7436
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
regarding the law about "unfinished product" leaving the country...

One company's "finished product" is another company's "raw material"

The company whose finished product is iron ore, sells it to the steel mill.
To the steel mill the ore is not finished, it is a resource. AT the end of the steel mill's process, their final product is steel in one form or another

Other businesses buy the steel as a resource for their products, for example, car parts. Which get sold to other companies who use the parts to make assemblies, which get sold to other companies who buy the assemblies and make complete cars.

Bottom line is, which product is the finished product? It depends on your company's charter. If your company starts with whole trees and processes them to a point where specialty sizes of wood are sold to other manufacturers, then what you sell is your company's finished product.

If the question of "final product" is the crux of this government action, that's just crazy!! ESPECIALLY regarding chunks of wood! Such a law, if interpreted the way it appears to be interpreted in this case, would effectively prevent all export of wood or other natural resources

(bonus question: "what is the end product of government intervention?")
[ ] the good of the citizens
[ ] the control of the citizens
[ ] other ________________________

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#126560 - 08/27/11 10:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
GDaddy Offline
Expert

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 897
Loc: Homosassa , Florida
I was researching this law a little bit. Apparently, the Lacey Act of 1900 (designed to protect species from overhunting and prevent the interstate transportation of certain plants) was expanded in 2008 to include logging.
I was afraid I was going to have to blame this on Bush but...


He vetoed the Farm Bill that this expansion was attached to. Twice! (Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008.)

Bush's veto was overridden by congress.

Yep. Guitar players can truly blame the democrats for this mess. For the record, I am the proud owner of two fantastic, American-made Gibson electric guitars.
_________________________
Yamaha...Motif ES-8, Motif Rack, CS6X
Korg...Karma,Triton Classic, PA-80, M-1+
AkaiSampler-S5000, Roland.. X5080 Rack/G-1000 Arranger
Various Guitars/Basses Amps Pedals Rec.Equip.


Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3

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#126561 - 08/27/11 11:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Ryszard Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3848
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Fear the government that fears your guitars.
_________________________
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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