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#126657 - 09/08/11 05:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
In my view, if a group of armed men bust through the doors and take away my ability to make a living, not much difference there, actually.

What's that in our 6th Amendment about the right to a speedy trial again?

I also seem to be recalling some other points about the rights to search and seizure...


--Mac
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#126658 - 09/08/11 06:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Mac]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6589
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
That's exactly what probable cause is all about, Mac. Authorities cannot simply decide on their own to raid and seize your proberty. We have an independent judiciary in this country. They have to go to a judge first and convince him there's enough evidence to warrant a search and seizure. Hence the term "search warrant". Federal judges don't sign off on those lightly or at least they're not supposed to.

Judges certainly can have different opinions though. A different judge may have decided the evidence wasn't strong enough to sign the search warrant. Look at what happened today. The Appeals court in Virgina threw out Virginia's case against Obamacare so now it's 2 and 2 in Appeals. A lot of so called expert commentators were really looking forward to this case putting a big slam dunk on Obamacare but it didn't happen.

Bob
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#126659 - 09/08/11 09:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Today's news is just yet another case of, "It ain't over 'til its over"

That particular issue is just slowly winding its way up to the Supreme Court.


--Mac
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#126660 - 09/09/11 10:21 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Mac]
rubberball103 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 297
Loc: NW corner of S. Nowhere
American police don't need probable cause or warrents anymore. You can be stopped in your car and searched for no reason at all. If you happen to be carrying a fair amount of cash, you can be arrested as a drug dealer. It will likely be dropped but you'll spend time in jail and money on a lawyer. You can stopped and asked for an ID and taken to jail if you don't have one or feel like showing it.

The America we learned about in school has been gone since the Raygun era.
_________________________
- Bud

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#126661 - 09/09/11 04:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: rubberball103]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6589
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Bud, you're completely wrong. You're reading or listening to the wrong people I think. Didn't you follow the Arizona immigration law thing? That's exactly what that law is all about, the cops CANNOT just stop a car for no reason and then ask for ID's. You also can't be arrested just because you happen to have some cash on you no matter now much. Cash and crack yeah, cash and an unregistered gun, sure but not just cash alone. Some cops will cross the line, we all know that but the way you're writing it is they're allowed to do these things. No, they're not.

And Mac, I totally agree with you I can't wait for the Supreme Court to hear that case. My worry is the admin wants to delay that as long as possible hoping one of the conservative justices either dies or has to retire so he an appoint another lib and swing it his way.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#126662 - 09/09/11 06:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Look. If you are on the street and some cop wants to arrest you for *any* reason, tha officer is at the time issuing a lawful order. I don't attempt to hold court on the street. Even and especially when I know that the police are out of line.

Here's what I do and say.

First, I cooperate as best as possible.

Second, (and many should memorize this sentence) I look at said officer and say, "Well, you do what you think you have to do, but I want you to know that I WILL conTEST it."

Notice the way to say the word, "contest". With the emphasis on the last syllable. Like a lawyer would say the word.

Having been on both sides of the law, I can tell you that the idea of arresting someone who might be a lawyer or a legal technician on a trumped up charge is something the average intelligent officer of the law will avoid.

Or, as we used to say back in my days on the police force in traffic division, "The reason our badges are round and don't have points on them like the Sheriff's badges is because our badges don't hurt half as bad when a judge and two lawyers shove it up yer butt."

People who want to settle things on the spot and in a hurry just don't understand how our system of laws works. Patience grasshopper. When wronged, settle it in the courtroom, where the judge is more likely to be an elected official who looks on you as a citizen, a constituent - and a vote on election day. Have your case ready, present it clearly, logically and once. With zero histrionics.

This is why arguing about a case that has not yet gone to court is just noise.


--Mac
_________________________
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#126663 - 09/09/11 08:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Mac]
MusicStudent Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5540
Loc: Chicago
Quote:



What's that in our 6th Amendment about the right to a speedy trial again?

--Mac




OK, you finally got my attention. Speedy trial - ya then a continuance, then another trial and another continuace and over and over, this crap goes on for years. It is some kind of frickin game the system is playing to screw with ya. And the lawyers jsut bleed you dry. But don't get me goin, you think this Gibson Owner can go on a rant!....

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#126664 - 09/10/11 05:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Mac]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6589
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Quote:

People who want to settle things on the spot and in a hurry just don't understand how our system of laws works. Patience grasshopper. When wronged, settle it in the courtroom, where the judge is more likely to be an elected official who looks on you as a citizen, a constituent - and a vote on election day. Have your case ready, present it clearly, logically and once. With zero histrionics.




100% correct Mac. I can't comment on the incidents just talked about here but if you give a cop any kind of attitude at all, it ain't gonna be pretty. Like everyone else who hasn't been living in a cave the last 40 years, I've had my share of "contacts" with the cops and never a problem even including one incident I talked about here last year where I was at some chicks house back in the 70's at 4 in the morning and the place was raided by the DEA and local cops as part of the largest drug bust in the Northwest tristate area up to that time. I was completely innocent, just met the girl, knew nothing about her activities. I had to be cool, no attitude at all, talked about my being an Air Force veteran with a Top Secret security clearance, all that stuff and I was let go, no problems. I have a way of kinda sorta giving the impression I know people (which I don't) without being blatant about it.

Trust me one wrong step, one wrong word out of my mouth and I could be getting out on probation right about now assuming I lived that long. There were other less serious incidents like that infamous Ohio speed trap on the Interstate around 3am. I got out of that one with a warning, same deal. Just be nice, act like I'm one of them, I appreciate all they do, etc etc. You give a big man with a gun at 3am who's already on edge any slight reason at all and you're going to spend 48 hours in jail just for giggles.

Just be cool and of course being not guilty helps too. If they find some **** on you, all bets are off.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#126665 - 09/11/11 08:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18967
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
No officer I don't have any asterisks on me, why do you ask?

_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#126666 - 09/11/11 08:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7570
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
this picture gives the phrase "dog tired" new meaning

heh
Bob, is that your dog?
if so, is his forum name ARFHARV?

(I think everything should be HIS fault from now on)

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#126667 - 09/11/11 08:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7570
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
speaking of police harrassment, last Monday I got a traffic ticket for going 37 in a 35mph zone!!

WHATT????
I wasn't insulting or anything.
When he asked at the end if I had anything to say, I *DID* say "is there a point?"

(he replied "NOPE!")

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#126668 - 09/11/11 08:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18967
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
That's Dakota, was my dog for many years, no longer here.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#126669 - 09/11/11 09:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7570
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

That's Dakota, was my dog for many years, no longer here.



Sorry about your dog, but your caption was hilarious.

Have you ever gone to the website http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/photos ?
the photos are alarming, but whoever writes the captions knows how to turn a phrase...

mandatory thread-specific comments:
1) WALMART doesn't sell Gibson guitars (apparently because they aren't made in China yet)
2) see #1

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#126670 - 09/11/11 12:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18967
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Yes I've been told of that site many times.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#126671 - 09/11/11 12:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
eddie1261 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4393
Quote:

There were other less serious incidents like that infamous Ohio speed trap on the Interstate around 3am.




So you sped through Linndale, eh?

Try Waldo Florida. A former co worked got a ticket in Waldo Florida for 28 in a 25.

Now, to be fair there is a HUGE billboard saying "YOU ARE RNTERING A SPEED TRAP" in both directions, but 28 in a 25? C'mon now....
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I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#126672 - 09/12/11 03:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: eddie1261]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6589
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Well fwiw, when California finally lifted the old 55 mph freeway limit some years ago, they announced the new (old original limit) of 65 would be a hard limit. CHP reps then did lots of media interviews saying they would issue tickets for doing 66. It is what it is.

Yeah I agree it sucks but the legislature didn't write the law saying "don't worry, there's 5 mph wiggle room". What really gets me is I just got home from my regular Sunday evening casino gig 75 miles away and traffic was running between 75 and 80 and there's still some people weaving in and out doing closer to 90. Every time I make that run there's always at least one time that everybody starts slowing down, traffic bunches up and it turns out to be a CHP cruiser going 65, then when he either gets off the freeway or stops somebody, it's back to the races. I was having a hard time keeping the cruise control at 75. The traffic reminds me of those schools of small fry in the ocean who bunch up based on the safety in numbers principle. Cross species instinct I guess.

I've told myself if I get nailed I will hire an attorney to fight it on the basis of what's the average traffic speed. There's been a few articles talking about if you can present evidence that that's what the traffic is really doing it may get thrown out. I've had one ticket in something like 10 years (not for speeding), I guess I won't know if that works until it happens.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#126673 - 09/12/11 09:01 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
rubberball103 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 297
Loc: NW corner of S. Nowhere
Quote:

Bud, you're completely wrong. You're reading or listening to the wrong people I think. Didn't you follow the Arizona immigration law thing? That's exactly what that law is all about, the cops CANNOT just stop a car for no reason and then ask for ID's. You also can't be arrested just because you happen to have some cash on you no matter now much. Cash and crack yeah, cash and an unregistered gun, sure but not just cash alone. Some cops will cross the line, we all know that but the way you're writing it is they're allowed to do these things. No, they're not.

And Mac, I totally agree with you I can't wait for the Supreme Court to hear that case. My worry is the admin wants to delay that as long as possible hoping one of the conservative justices either dies or has to retire so he an appoint another lib and swing it his way.

Bob




I know people who have personally experienced. Also have read many accounts of it. Granted, I don't know every one in the country. I know innocent people who have had their property confiscated without warrant or cause and took years and thousands in lawyers fees to get them back. Most people have to simply accept it since they cannot afford to fight it.

The US is becoming a fascist nation and millions of Americans think that is just dandy.
_________________________
- Bud

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#126674 - 09/12/11 09:04 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: Pat Marr]
rubberball103 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 297
Loc: NW corner of S. Nowhere
Quote:

speaking of police harrassment, last Monday I got a traffic ticket for going 37 in a 35mph zone!!

WHATT????
I wasn't insulting or anything.
When he asked at the end if I had anything to say, I *DID* say "is there a point?"

(he replied "NOPE!")





You were lucky. He could have pulled from you car, beat you up, searched your car and taken you to jail for disorderly conduct. You'd likely have been released without charge the next day but what would you - sue for false arrest?
_________________________
- Bud

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#126675 - 09/12/11 09:06 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: jazzmammal]
rubberball103 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 297
Loc: NW corner of S. Nowhere
Quote:

Well fwiw, when California finally lifted the old 55 mph freeway limit some years ago, they announced the new (old original limit) of 65 would be a hard limit. CHP reps then did lots of media interviews saying they would issue tickets for doing 66. It is what it is.

Yeah I agree it sucks but the legislature didn't write the law saying "don't worry, there's 5 mph wiggle room". What really gets me is I just got home from my regular Sunday evening casino gig 75 miles away and traffic was running between 75 and 80 and there's still some people weaving in and out doing closer to 90. Every time I make that run there's always at least one time that everybody starts slowing down, traffic bunches up and it turns out to be a CHP cruiser going 65, then when he either gets off the freeway or stops somebody, it's back to the races. I was having a hard time keeping the cruise control at 75. The traffic reminds me of those schools of small fry in the ocean who bunch up based on the safety in numbers principle. Cross species instinct I guess.

I've told myself if I get nailed I will hire an attorney to fight it on the basis of what's the average traffic speed. There's been a few articles talking about if you can present evidence that that's what the traffic is really doing it may get thrown out. I've had one ticket in something like 10 years (not for speeding), I guess I won't know if that works until it happens.

Bob




I admire your princlples but you might go broke fighting it, even if you win.
_________________________
- Bud

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#126676 - 09/12/11 09:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Feds Raid Gibson Guitar...again!? [Re: rubberball103]
Ryszard Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3900
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
"A conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged. A liberal is a conservative who has just been arrested." -Unknown
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Xtra Style used: _WILDONE
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