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The question to ask is whether we should institutionalize one "right way" to do something, then serve that institution... or should we serve music, and allow the possibility that many ways exist to make it? The first musicians beat on logs and blew wind through hollow sticks. We've come a long way since then. Are those first log beaters musicians? If you worship the paradigm of note on paper, then they aren't. But if you worship the idea of sound for sound's sake, and gee, what can we do to make a sound that's new and interesting... then yes, the log beaters were cutting edge forward thinkers in their day. I imagine two primitive humans talking and the one reprimands the other, saying "NO, Og, stick for KILLING, not for making noise" But Og was secretly thinking ".. stick make noise too...Og like noise" 
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Maybe I am in the wrong place. If the accepted definition of a “musician” is anyone who can use BIAB, …… then I definitely am in the wrong place. I hope not, but maybe so.
if you are one of the people who is using an amazing tool in a way that meets your specific needs, then you're in the right place.
But if you think that there's only one way to use it, and people who use it differently than you are deficient in some way... well... you're still in the right place, but maybe it's a different place than you thought it was.
Hey Bob... FWIW, I want to say that I love the way you present ideas. You are a natural communicator. All your posts get people engaged in the discussion. I like that, and you're really good at it.
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Pressing play IMHO does not enhance what I PLAY ,it enhances my original song idea by providing me with the instrumentation I CANNOT play or afford to have hanging around in my house, in case I need that specific instrument. So BIAB, to me, is a "band of musicians" that provide me with the instrumentation that I feel the song requires
I'm with Bob regarding the fact that BIAB and RB are great tools to enhance the live performance or practicing of the user... but I'm in total agreement on the point about adding instruments you could never add by yourself.
One of my pet peeves about live music played by real people is that after about 3 songs it all starts to sound the same. Why is that?
1) the band is limited by the instruments they know how to play
2) except for the really talented bands, most are staffed by musicians who have their stock riffs that they use over and over in all their songs.
One reason why I like the idea of backing track accompaniment is that it opens EVERY MUSICAL DOOR to me! I'm no longer limited by the instruments 5 guys can play, or by their skill level or lack of discipline or inability to sing.
To me, this is a prime value adding reason for using music software as a performing musician... it adds possibilities.
I really doubt that very many people (if any) use BIAB or other software as a one button solution. It wouldn't cut it. That's why we tweak the output a thousand ways after the button is pushed. People's ears are spoiled by highly processed and perfect music. Its what they hear on the radio every day. A performer can't afford to take generic music to a gig... if they do it once, they won't do it for long.
I don't doubt that the PERCEPTION of one button music is off-putting to some who don't really understand the whole process of building a song you'd actually want to put before an audience. But that speaks more about their understanding than it does about the software.
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It is just another tool in the toolbox IMO.
Just as there are different levels of players, like the person who just bought a guitar and has learned a few chord patterns vs the longtime and skilled guitarist, BiaB as a tool can represent many things to many different people. All the same relationships apply, I don't think that someone who is not familiar with music, terms, definitions, theory, song formats, etc. would be able to reliably create stellar tunes using BiaB, it does not mean that they couldn't come up with something that would be rewarding, if to no other person than themselves.
We see examples of the many and varied uses for BiaB riht here on these forums: One person may use the program to create backing tracks for recording whereas another may be more interested in use of the program for live performance backing purposes, yet another views the program as the perfect tool for a songwriter, then there are those who use the software to provide themselves with a better practice environment. Likely there are more viewpoints and uses than I listed, as well. All are valid. IMHO.
I suppose that, several centuries ago, when western music notation was in its infancy, there were probably those who ranted against the use of the pen and paper with staff on it...
--Mac
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maybe a better name for this software would be "BAND-OUTSIDE-THE-BOX" It seems that people trapped inside the box don't like music software.
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It is the age old argument, regarding loops, vocals, software, Pianos, Guitars, whatever. do it like me, view it like me, or you are wrong. I play guitar, and bass, and a little keyboards, but i don't look down on those who use loops to create. I have seen people take interesting sounds and blend them with home made loops and create fantastic music. In Pet Sounds Brian Wilson used things that were not conventional to add to his musical palette like water jugs, and other things. Were these not instruments since there were not found in a music store?
Bob you are offended when people call other musicians that do not play conventional instruments, or have spent years working on the craft of that instrument. Well to me it is offensive to label people, and pack them into their narrow view.
In the case of musical instrument vs Singer. i do both, and i won't say i am great at either, but i can hold my own. One thing i know it takes more effort to perfect a vocal than it does a guitar track. I have to work harder to get a vocal track that is on key, and has the right notes inflections, and other nuances needed to be presentable.
If we were to all subscribe to your view point then accapella music is not music, but is just singing, since singers are not musicians, right. Barbershop quartets, Doo Wop groups, and the like are various forms of MUSIC!! The beauty of the human voice is something that makes us unique on this planet.
BiaB may not be exactly the same to you as playing a guitar, but there are folks here that are so adept at using this tool that they excel at it. I use it a lot, and i can say that what i make here is mediocre at best. There are people here that have really dug in and learned the tricks and features and turn out tasty music from this program. Telling them they are not musicians just cause the do not play the instrument you play to me is being narrow minded, arrogant, and offensive.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Quote:
except for the really talented bands, most are staffed by musicians who have their stock riffs that they use over and over in all their songs.
I will share a story with you to make a point.
Let me start by saying that I absolutely HATE Kenny G. I think Kenny G is the prototype for people who sold out to the music business and sold their creativity to the devil in the process. All of that pablum he plays....
Now, I LOVED Kenny Gorelick when he played for Jeff Lorber. Back then he played with feel, with soul, and has not yet sold out. He played mostly tenor and fit Lorber's band perfectly. When he went solo....
We used to have a venue her in Cleveland that was called The Front Row. It was a theater in the round with a rotating stage that was only like 24 rows deep so there was literally not a bad seat in the house. The sound system was immaculate. THE best place ever to see a concert.
A fellow sax player and I got seats in the 4th row. We were JAZZED to go see this guy. He started with a nice uptempo tune that really had the place feeling the groove. Then he went into the soprano stuff, doing circular breathing in every song, running those long scales.....
Now at this point I have to inject that I am in AWE of his technical skills. He is the cleanest, most immaculate technician on the sax I have ever seen. But you know what, I would rather hear Sanborn or Grover or someone who plays that soulful instrument with soul. Of those long lines the way Coltrane played, or the scat of Charlie Parker. Those guys play more than notes. They play feel.
My friend and I looked at each other during the 4th song and said, almost at the same time, "He is repeating licks already". We left during the 4th song because we had seen everything he knows how to do. When you are out of ideas in the 4th song.....
The point of the post is to support the comment that even the most skilled musicians have "stock" licks, and honestly I find that boring. Sure the song has a melody line, but when the break comes and you get your 32 bars to shine, geeze have something fresh for people who pay a day's salary to see you. Parker prided himself on never playing the same thing twice. Kenny played the same thing twice within 20 minutes of the downbeat.
Once again, before any Kenny G fans jump on me, he is an amazing technician. Flawless. He is just SO white bread.....
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Quote:
Telling them they are not musicians just cause the do not play the instrument you play to me is being narrow minded, arrogant, and offensive.
aw c'mon.. cut Bob some slack. He honestly stated a point of view that is held by many people. He himself likes BIAB, he was talking mostly about how others make judgments about it.
He did go out on a limb regarding the question of how much skill is required before one passes the mysterious threshold to be called "musician"; but we'll never settle that because it is a subjective evaluation, and every person is entitled to draw that line wherever they want to.
We can express a wide view of opinions here without hostility if we contest the opinion, not the person who expressed it.
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Robh,
I guess my definition of a musician, (an instrumentalist), isn’t the same as a good deal of folks here.
I offer my sincere apologies to anyone I offended with my comments.
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Quote:
He did go out on a limb regarding the question of how much skill is required before one passes the mysterious threshold to be called "musician"; but we'll never settle that because it is a subjective evaluation, and he is entitled to an opinion that is different from anyone else's.
And that line seems to be directly related to the level of experience/education as the one making a judgement. Someone who has studied music is at a different plane that someone who has not. I know amazing players that can't find middle C on a keyboard or tell me what note is on the middle line of a sheet of staff paper. That doesn't make them any less of a human being, it just means they never studied that subject in school. I never took woodworking in shop class but with a miter saw I can make 45 degree cuts.... Does that make me a carpenter?
I find is sad that a lot of players don't know enough theory to know that if we are playing in D and I hold up 4 fingers that they don't know the 4th of D is G. That doesn't make them less of a player. However, I AM of the school of thought that there is a difference between a musician and someone who knows how to play an instrument. A player can tell you how the chords fit. A musician can tell you why. Yet if "why" doesn't interest you, so what? "Why" interests me. When I go to see The Cleveland Orchestra play at the big outdoor venue near my home I take the score of the featured piece with me and spread it out on the lawn and follow along. I did it this July 4th. Of the 10 or so people sitting around me, 9 thought I was a mental case. But one said "You really know what that means? How do you know that?" And I explained "Listen to how the notes go up in pitch and down in pitch and follow my finger along the page. Note that the dots go up and down with the pitch." And she said "That is more than I have never learned about music in that last 30 seconds." She called me recently to tell me she was taking piano lessons.
So there is no "line" for where musician starts for the general public. That line moves depending on who is making the perceptive judgement.
Edited to correct tense from present to past.
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Pat, Quote:
He did go out on a limb regarding the question of how much skill is required before one passes the mysterious threshold to be called "musician"
I actually played guitar for 4 or 5 years before I would refer to myself as a musician, so I was just as hard on myself regarding the definition as I am on others. Oh well.......
The term obviously means different things to different people, especially in light of todays electronic music.
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Quote:
However, I AM of the school of thought that there is a difference between a musician and someone who knows how to play an instrument.
If this discussion were a game of roulette, I'd have to put my dollar on the same number as you and Bob. I don't see myself as a musician, but as a hobbyist with a deep-seated interest in creating music to help me perform
I'm like the carpenter who doesn't care to know the reasons why the architect designed the building as he did... I just want to know how to actualize the idea and make it tangible.
Music is a complex industry and there are people of varying function and skill level that make it all happen. I'm happy to be in the chain somewhere.
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Quote:
Pat,
Quote:
He did go out on a limb regarding the question of how much skill is required before one passes the mysterious threshold to be called "musician"
I actually played guitar for 4 or 5 years before I would refer to myself as a musician, so I was just as hard on myself regarding the definition as I am on others. Oh well.......
The term obviously means different things to different people, especially in light of todays electronic music.
the definition is becoming less and less clear cut, but that doesn't diminish any of the excellent points you make Bob. This is a discussion forum, and it is expected that our collective awareness will be broadened by hearing thoughts we might not have considered on our own. You are perhaps the most prolific contributor to the discussions here, and I must say once again,you are REALLY good at engaging people in thoughtful discourse. I hope you never stop.
For what it's worth, many of my comments are "devil's advocate" points, not necessarily what I think, but an attempt to flesh out the various points of view.
I find that your point of view on almost every topic is in line with mine (but I often argue the opposing side... I guess because I like to see options open up rather than narrow down.)
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Okay, the northeast Ohio perspective.
This may be different for every area of the country, but here the scene, which used to be fertile and prolific, has devolved into a state where there are very few places that REALLY have live music, and by that I mean places that are willing to pay what the band is worth. That has led to smaller and smaller bands, less and less caring about how they sound, and people playing in 4 bands at a time, none of which rehearse because they don't make money rehearsing. They would rather go play for $50 than rehearse. That has also led to the iPod band syndrome. If a club budgets $300 for a Saturday night of music, and you can split if 5 ways, 4 ways, 3 ways or one way, which are you going to choose? Your typical band in northeast Ohio right now is a bass, drums and guitar with a girl singer. And what happens when the guitar solos? The music just drops out because the only rhythm instrument on stage is now playing a solo. Nobody has a keyboard player because:
A) The economy sucks and nobody can afford keyboards
B) The bands see a keyboard player as nothing more than another body to pay
C) Nobody know how to play "keyboards". Adding supporting sounds, etc.
D) The stages are too small for a keyboard player.
E) The clubs see a band as an annoyance they have to tolerate.
Here in Cleveland, it was pretty much over when the drinking age changed from 18 to 21. When that happened, we went from a town with more clubs than bands to more bands than clubs, and the bands started cutting each other's throats just to get gigs. $1000 a night bands were playing for $400 because the clubs knew they could get away with it. And the musicians, sheep that they are, just followed along for that empty praise that comes from their drunken friends.
I really hate what happened to our scene the last 20 years. And it isn't going to get better as long as the musicians stay blind to the truth like they are. Everynight is "jam night" somewhere, and those same sheep go play and give clubs nights of music just to play in front of people so someone, anyone, will say "Hey man you sounded great!"
Add that all up, and I would RATHER play with Real Band.
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Alyn, In case you missed it this morning, my posted apology should be directed primarily to you because of the way I approached the debate and my expressing “incredulity” at your position. Quote:
I guess my definition of a musician, (an instrumentalist), isn’t the same as a good deal of folks here.
I offer my sincere apologies to anyone I offended with my comments.
I took time today to re-read my posts from last night and I definitely should have stated my position in a less confrontational manner. I don’t want to offend anyone while stating my opinion. Your response was very well stated and to the point. I’ll try to put the advice you gave into practice.
I hope you’ll accept the apology.
……………………………………………………………………………………
Robh,
Quote:
BiaB may not be exactly the same to you as playing a guitar, but there are folks here that are so adept at using this tool that they excel at it. I use it a lot, and i can say that what i make here is mediocre at best. There are people here that have really dug in and learned the tricks and features and turn out tasty music from this program. Telling them they are not musicians just cause the do not play the instrument you play to me is being narrow minded, arrogant, and offensive.
There are tons of folks who know a heckuva lot more than I do about BIAB. I’m sure their efforts on programming songs would put mine to shame. I’ve always used BIAB as a practice tool, and as such, I don’t need great arrangements. Just decent ones. I wasn’t trying to belittle their efforts, just stating my own definition of a single term, (musician).
I’m positive I never said you had to be a guitarist to be a musician.
In looking back at my statements to you, I see absolutely no justification for your final comment, especially taken in its entirety. That was more than a bit over the top and I really don't appreciate it.
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In looking back at my statements to you, I see absolutely no justification for your final comment, especially taken in its entirety. That was more than a bit over the top and I really don't appreciate it.
While it's true that ending on a confrontational note isn't the path to peace, I'll presume to speak for Robh. My take on his response is that he was following up on your comment here:
Quote:
"...Saying that anyone who can use BIAB is a musician is OFFENSIVE to anyone who can actually play an instrument! "
to which he replied:
Quote:
"...Well to me it is offensive to label people "
and I interpreted his point to be that offense is a two way street. That much is pretty much in line with the rule of conversational give and take.
Speaking for myself, I often write something at night that I regret in the morning when I re-read the forum's posts. Probably we all do occasionally. I bet Robh wishes he hadn't hit the send button on that last line, but he did. Next tme it might be me or you or somebody else.
But Hey, we're all a buncha old opinionated goats who don't mean any real harm.
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Pat, Quote:
Speaking for myself, I often write something at night that I regret in the morning when I re-read the forum's posts.
Hey, ................. I resemble that remark!
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I certainly do not mean to be harsh with you Bob, or anyone. If what i said came over as over the top, then i apologize. You are an interesting, and very fun guy to have around these parts. Certainly a huge contributor here. As Pat said, and he was right on, i was responding to your comment. One that i respect your right to have, but i have the right to speak my mind as well.
I have never appreciated blanket statements, but when i see one, i sometime i use one to make a point. There will be as many opinions here as there are folks to toss them out. I once felt just as you do. I felt that unless you play an instrument, like a guitar, piano, sax, whatever, you were not a musician.
After spending a ton of time over the last 10 years here, at Cakewalk.com, and acidplanet.com i developed a different view. I saw people take simple acidized loops and make songs so complex and deep that i could never in my geetar playin' mind begin to make something sound that good.
A musician to me is one who creates music, a guitarist is one who plays guitar. An electrician, works with electricity, but some work with a plethora of different areas of their field. They are all electricians. Is the guy that grinds the valves, and mills the head on an engine more of a auto mechanic than the guy that reprograms the computer system? Whatever form of music they choose to use, whatever tools they chose to use to create their art form.
Sure i can see the view point, that one who opens Band in A Box, and types in a three chord song, and hits play is not fully creating the arrangement on his own, but most of those folk who work with these incredible tools do far more than type in chords and hit play. They type in chords, re type them in, test many options, pick bar settings, generate and regenerate tracks and sections of tracks, manipulate the panning and effects. Move them to their DAW of choice, add automation, re effect, record over and dub in new stuff, and finally mix down their baby, for the whole world to hear, and tear to pieces.
Different views from different locations on the street. Peace, Rob.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Quote:
I say BIAB is now a musical instrument and as with all instruments you need to learn how to play it.
Concur completely. I have been saying for years that I regard BIAB and other programs, notably Propellerhead Reason, as musical instruments. I have thought, but have hesitated to state the logical next step, that one who skilfully uses an instrument to create music--any instrument--is a musician. I suppose resolution lies in how you define "instrument," "music," and "musician."
When people who don't know me discover that I am a musician, they inevitably ask, "What instrument do you play?" Because the physical instruments are only a part of my musical creations, I have trained myself to answer, "My primary musical instrument is the personal computer. I also play guitar, bass, and keyboards." I could not create the music I do without a PC and musical software.
Look at it historically. Does anyone argue that the Paul Lansky's work at the Princeton Music Laboratory or that of Jon Appleton and Don Cherry in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, which took weeks or months to program, process, and hear, is music? Not any more. So we are left to discuss whether the creators of same are "musicians" and if what they used to create it is an "instrument." I don't see how you can argue otherwise. Different skillset and technology, but the result is undeniably music.
I primarily use BIAB and Reason to create 'beds' for my original creations, but there are one or two pieces that are 100% electronic. The output is a combination of notes, timing, and timbres which didn't exist before. In my mind they are "music," of which I am the "composer," and that I am a "musician" for having created them, other musical skills and abilities notwithstanding.
I'll go all the way out on the limb and say that they pass the Turing test. Users of these programs would probably be able to distinguish them from other creations to which I add instruments which I happen to finger in real time, but the average listener couldn't.
Instrument. Music. Musician. Just stirrin' the puddin', folks.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Robh, Quote:
There will be as many opinions here as there are folks to toss them out.
That’s actually a good thing. If we all had the same opinions, it would get boring pretty fast.
My idea of what a musician is, isn’t something new and is pretty common among people who play instruments in general and is definitely the dominant view of most acoustic musicians. No doubt my acoustic background has contributed to my opinion.
This being a forum for a computer program specifically designed to create computer generated music, then I can see where my view will be frowned upon and some would take offence. I’ll probably keep my view on this in the background here on the forum unless there’s a reason to bring it up.
But ultimately each of our ideas on what constitutes a musician are nothing more than opinions, and each of us have the right to our own. One thing is sure, …… I think we answered the main question of the thread about why some are closed minded to BIAB, and we did it without even trying to! LOL.
Take care guys and lets hope that tomorrow is uneventful as the 10th anniversary of 9-11 rolls around.
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The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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