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#130355 - 10/07/11 11:44 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: Tommyc]
rharv Offline
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Posts: 18920
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There is a nice Solid State mic pre out there that doesn't break the bank. Mac has mentioned it numerous times, and after reading the linked article below with a few respected opinions I grabbed one a few years ago. I like it a lot. Much more than the few ART's I've owned.

StudioProjects VTB-1. Clean SS, with ability to add a little tube if desired.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-g...xperiences.html
It's an old article; the preamp has been around a while.
As far as 'adding some color' .. how do you know? You are comparing one unknown to another most of the time. People get used to the color of one pre and then say the next one adds color, when in fact they all do, along with the mic. JMO
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#130356 - 10/07/11 05:35 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rockstar_not]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4376
Quote:

I assume that you track your vocals after you have some scratch or guide tracks of keys, drums, etc. already laid down.




The vocals are the last thing to go down.

Quote:

If so, name one reason why you need a mixer to track vocals, besides pre-amping the mic.




I do it to loop it through the digital EQ and pan it so I can record it in stereo. Those are the only reasons.
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#130357 - 10/07/11 06:40 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: eddie1261]
rharv Offline
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All of my vocal tracks are done in mono, on mono tracks FWIW..
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#130358 - 10/09/11 12:52 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rharv]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7417
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Quote:

All of my vocal tracks are done in mono, on mono tracks FWIW..



same here. Always. If I double or triple them then I'll pan them a little. Iwould hazard to estimate that well over 99% of vocals ever recorded were done mono then post processed.

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#130359 - 10/09/11 08:53 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rharv]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
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Quote:

All of my vocal tracks are done in mono, on mono tracks FWIW..




If using just my mouth I do only MONO but having been accused of talking out my a.. sometimes I'll mic in stereo.
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#130360 - 10/10/11 06:15 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: eddie1261]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6531
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Quote:

I do it to loop it through the digital EQ and pan it so I can record it in stereo. Those are the only reasons.




Ok, lets think about this a minute. Which part of your voice are you panning left and which part right? You could do it with EQ I guess, maybe pan the bass freq's left and the mid's and high's right. Otherwise I don't get it, your voice is not a stereo instrument it's single source. If you want to take your basic vocal track and add harmonies and stuff and pan that part, you still don't bother recording in stereo, you simply copy your vocal track as many times as you need and then add effects, EQ, panning etc to each copied track.

I think you may be overlooking the fact that the pan control in RB works on a mono track. If you want your voice to be 2/3 to the right just move the slider.

Bob
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#130361 - 10/10/11 07:23 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: jazzmammal]
rockstar_not Offline
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Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Eddie, read Bob's response carefully. This is true for nearly any instrument that isn't large physically, like acoustic guitar, individual brass instruments, violins and violas, etc.

These are all traditionally recorded in mono. Monitor through your soundcard and if you set whatever DAW software to record to a mono track, it will play out mono TO BOTH EARS simultaneously. That's all you really have to think / worry about. That's what you should want.

If you want to process it internally in the DAW with stereo effects, that shouldn't be a problem either. Most plugins that have stereo function automatically will take a mono source and process it stereo, like a ping-pong type of delay. Usually no thinking or signal routing required.

Your looping thing through the EQ could be the very source of what sounds odd to your ears about your recorded vox. It's possible you are printing to disk the very thing that is bothering you.

Go simple. Eliminate the mixer. Roll-off the low frequencies below 100 Hz or so, add light amount of compression if you have some level inconsistencies, add slight, and I mean slight amount of reverb to taste and enjoy the results. I think you'll be very happy / surprised.

For effects, try to avoid processing. This includes harmony processing. I have yet to hear this sound satisfactory. There's always a 'machine' like quality no matter if it's the most expensive digitech vocalist outboard gear or not.

John mentioned that he uses harmony processing for live performance. I can understand that but then I have to ask about the listeners. Are they expecting vocal harmonies from a solo artist?

If you are just recording, I say to make the little bit of extra effort involved in recording your own harmonies or double and triple tracking. For not a lot of effort, you can get a much more palatable result. In fact, I would say it's less effort than bothering with harmony processing.

This is the first ever double tracking and BGV project I did using my own voice. It's a two minute cover of Beck's 'The Golden Age': I stand that up against any harmony processor - and you know what it was fun doing the BGVs one track at a time.

http://rockstarnot.rekkerd.org/songs/new...ute%20cover.mp3

Now, the original song had quite a bit of reverb on the vox and through critical listening, I tried matching it.

Here's the original by Beck btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zAT15vaFk

I did all of the parts, including the faked pedal steel - which was a soundfont, but I did the bends and so forth. I recorded an actual glockenspiel (most difficult instrument recording I ever did at home) that I borrowed from church.

I don't like most of Beck's stuff, but there's a vibe on that Sea Change album that is haunting and beautiful. Credit to the choice string section stuff he has in most of the tracks. He learned that from his dad.

I chose to attempt to directly copy the feel and sound of that song because to me it is so sonically interesting. I spent a great deal of time deconstructing all of the elements and trying to figure out how to ape it in my basement studio. I was accused of more than once directly stealing it until people did a back-to-back listen, then the differences are easy to detect (guitar strum rhythms are totally unlike each other, my drum programming is a bit hitchy, etc.)

-Scott

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#130362 - 10/10/11 08:02 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rockstar_not]
Robh Offline
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Loc: California
I add no effects to any recorded track, 'cept maybe electric guitar. I like to effect it later where i can make changes.
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#130363 - 10/10/11 08:33 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: Robh]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
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I only record vocals on 2 tracks so I can have it on 2 tracks and not make one track so loud that it distorts. I run each track at half volume. 2 x 1/2 = 1, right?

I add some reverb though the 2 digital reverbs that are looped through my mixer's effects bus. (Rob says I add way too much.... LOL!!)

I am going to record the vocals on one track again totally dry, plugged right into the interface, no verb, no EQ.... and see what I get. When I try to use the effects built into Real Band, whether it's the reverb or the EQ, it ends up like when you shorten a leg on a table to make it even. Then the other side os wrong so you shorten that one, and pretty soon the table is on the floor.
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I will continue to post in the songwriters forum but will be keeping my opinions to myself as far as the off topic forum goes.

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#130364 - 10/11/11 01:02 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: eddie1261]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7417
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Eddie,

Unless your hardware reverb units are Lexicons, chances are you can get a better result inside the box, not outside the box. Any time you are sending signal outside of the card for processing, you are going to add noise. There are so many free, nice sounding reverbs, that you really should avoid looping out to the mixer. Reverbs can have a 'time period' sound to them. As processing power has increased, the natural aspect of reverbs changes. I bagged my Alesis midiverb years ago because I found that I could get much better results in the box, than with the Alesis.

When you record vocals, or any source for that matter, you should try to set the gain staging so that it's a few clicks under 0 dB on the software's VU meter. You can always dial it back.

2 x 1/2 does not equal 1 when it comes to audio, BTW.

Adding reverb should be one of the last steps in a mixdown.

The main point of recording 'into the box' is to use the box. With an SM58, if you are close mic'ed you are almost assured to need to apply high pass filtering. Start at 80 Hz or so and go up from there, until you feel that the sound is getting 'thin'. Roll it back down 10 Hz or so from there.

Now, for reverb, it's almost always a good idea to bus the reverb. First, go get a decent freeware vst reverb like FreeverbToo http://www.sinusweb.de/freetoo.html . Place this into the aux slot and set it to 100% wet. Then, on your vocal track, start the aux knob at full left and as the track is playing back, slowly dial up the amount until you think it's too much. Then dial it back 25% of the travel from there.

While the effects that come bundled with RB can be good, I've not heard people brag on the reverb. It's o.k. to admit that not every effect in RB or PTPA is the best.

Another reverb that gots of airplay here on PG forums was the Anwidasoft reverb. Slightly limited in function, but still very usable. Then there is the whole classic series of Kjærhus plugins, hosted now by the Acoustica folks: http://www.acoustica.com/plugins/vst-directx.htm Everyone should have this plugin pack. It's the best deal going for 10 years now.

The reason you want to bus the reverb is so that you can send other track output there, without instantiating another copy of the reverb, which would eat more CPU.

I would send you a template project if I had RB, but I don't. Perhaps someone can help Eddie out this way - get him started with the right type of signal routing?

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#130365 - 10/11/11 08:42 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rockstar_not]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18920
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
The simplest (in function) vocal routing I know of is using the PG 10 band EQ, Classic compressor you linked to at acoustica, and the anwida reverb you mentioned. Each of these units gives great sound with very simple controls. and they're free.

I like Ambience reverb because it has a TON of control, but some people don't like it because of that.
Claasic reverb in that acoustica package is nice too.

"Finally Gel" in the user showcase is Barry singing thru SM58 plugged directly into M-Audio soundcard.
Then I used PG 10 band to cut from 120Hz on down and did a slight boost to just the 2 kHz band. Then used Classic Compressor vocal preset and turned the output dial to suit.
Then I put reverb in Aux slot and sent a little of the vocals thru it.
That's what I ended up with.


Edited by rharv (10/11/11 08:47 AM)
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#130366 - 10/11/11 08:46 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rockstar_not]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7230
Probably for another thread but.....

Quote:

John mentioned that he uses harmony processing for live performance. I can understand that but then I have to ask about the listeners. Are they expecting vocal harmonies from a solo artist?




I never quite read this take in any of your posts however I now feel that you are among those elitists that look down upon any of us here playing live with RB or BIAB.You don't totally say that but it sure implies it. If harmonies from a machine are not appropriate from a soloist why would backing tracks be any more appropriate?
Feel free to comment but I'm not going to debate this in Eddie's thread.
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John
ESI Gigaport HD+
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#130367 - 10/11/11 09:26 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: silvertones]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7417
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Quote:

Probably for another thread but.....

Quote:

John mentioned that he uses harmony processing for live performance. I can understand that but then I have to ask about the listeners. Are they expecting vocal harmonies from a solo artist?




I never quite read this take in any of your posts however I now feel that you are among those elitists that look down upon any of us here playing live with RB or BIAB.You don't totally say that but it sure implies it. If harmonies from a machine are not appropriate from a soloist why would backing tracks be any more appropriate?
Feel free to comment but I'm not going to debate this in Eddie's thread.




John, good point about not hijacking this thread. I quoted this post and started a new topic in off-topic.

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#130368 - 10/16/11 08:53 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: silvertones]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4376
Quote:

I posted that in hopes of getting Eddie to post an example of his singing. Kind of hard to help out a phantom voice.




I almost missed this out of shock because people rarely ask to hear me sing.... LOL!!!

My tracks

From there you can hear various quality mixes as I have learned and grown behind the mixer. Note that all of them were recorded the same way physically. It's when I started playing with EQ and such that some of them started to suck.


Edited by eddie1261 (10/17/11 01:06 AM)

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#130369 - 10/16/11 10:12 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: eddie1261]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7230
Something wrong with the link
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John
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"The only Band is a Real Band"
www.Wintertexaninfo.com/Bands/JohnnyD.php

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#130370 - 10/16/11 10:18 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: silvertones]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18920
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
The link has 2 www addresses. Need to remove the *www.pgmusic.com/forums/*from the link and let it start at soundcloud.com
I had to add asterisks or the address turned into a link due to forum software!


Edited by rharv (10/16/11 10:19 AM)
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#130371 - 10/16/11 10:54 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rharv]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7230
I only have dial so can't stream. How do you DL from that site?
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John
ESI Gigaport HD+
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"The only Band is a Real Band"
www.Wintertexaninfo.com/Bands/JohnnyD.php

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#130372 - 10/17/11 01:07 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: silvertones]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4376
Link is fixed.

Sorry John, but for obvious reasons I have them set up for no download.
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#130373 - 10/17/11 09:33 PM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: eddie1261]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7417
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Eddie,

I've listened to some of the tracks and here's my comments:

General: Remove the click count-in's.

What If It Was Love?: I hear no EQ issues. I would put a high pass filter on the recorded track starting at about 80Hz and try pushing up the frequency until things start to thin out.

Got Away, Snowball, Lie to Myself: These start to sound a little 'nasal' as you mentioned in a previous post.

Things That Go Together: The whole bottom end of the track is gone and sounds almost like it might be a mono mix.

Do it All Again: Again sounds like a mono mix, but the EQ on the vocals sounds better than the middle tracks.

Insignificant Other: This one is revealing itself as the one where you did the outboard processing. Record it like the first one. Don't be afraid to mix the vocals louder.

Go back to recording a mono vocal track of the SM58 directly. Then high pass filter it (Hey PG'ers, is there a high-pass filter directly in RB? If not, then get one at GVST here: http://www.gvst.co.uk/downloads.htm Just go ahead and grab all of the plugins - they are all pretty good.

Here's the signal chain I would use for starters, after listening to your stuff:

SM58 into your fast track pro directly, then high pass filter, then lightly compress the signal. After that bus over to some reverb. If you don't like what you are getting, then put some EQ in after the compressor. In the 'raw' track like track 1, it doesn't sound like there is a terrible room resonance playing into the recording, so no need to EQ before the compressor.

That's my 2 cents.

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#130374 - 10/18/11 10:51 AM [RealBand] Re: Real Band Graphic EQ [Re: rockstar_not]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
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Sounds more like that's my 200 bucks. Tis worth more than 2 cents.

If you've time I'd like to understand more about 'high pass' filter.

Now to figure out where 80k is on my piano. Which is my all things reference now.
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