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Pat Marr #131491 11/09/11 07:52 AM
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Clinton had some cool ideas here recently -
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-tic...-222914518.html


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rharv #131492 11/09/11 11:14 AM
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Sorry Bob. Not cool ideas at all. They sound nice but...

"Back to Work" hinges on a seemingly radical premise, as you write: "Government doesn't always mess everything up. It can be worth what you pay for it." How do we combat the popular notion that 'government is not the solution to the problem, it IS the problem', as Ronald Reagan declared.

What almost no one says concerning Civil Service employees is this: It’s almost impossible to fire anyone. How many times have we all heard from parents, relatives or friends, go into civil service, you have great job security and great bene’s just not very exciting work. You become a faceless bureaucrat. The reason government IS the problem is no accountability. They can do whatever they want, screw up terribly and no one gets fired for it. We all know when working for private sector bosses, screw up too much and you’re gone. That’s it.

Setting up some way to accelerate the resolution of the home mortgage crisis should be low-hanging fruit. If we don't do it it's going to be hard to return to a full-employment economy.

Right, this is what they all say. “Setting up some way…”. The problem is there IS NO WAY other than forcing the banks to simply write down the pricinple balance of all those loans to reflect the reality of current market prices. That means unbelievably huge losses that could easily throw them into bankruptcy. That in turn means a several trillion yes trillion, not billion dollar government bailout. THAT is the true 800 pound gorilla and there is no “some way” to fix it. He’s making it sound like oh, just get together, pass some new legislation and it’s all good. No, we’re not all good. Take it down to one house, one mortgage. The house is worth 250K and the mortgage is 350K. The owner can’t make the payments unless the bank simply writes off the 100K and rewrites the mortgage. Just lowering the interest rate a couple points won’t cut it. Multiply that by several million homes and do the math.

Secondly, the only way to get out of it is if we have shared prosperity. You can't have all income gains going to top 1% of us. He's not trying to be anti-wealth. He wants more millionaires and billionaires but he wants a growing middle class most of all and poor people able to work their way into it.

This is another simplistic statement not based in the real world. Great, make poor people have a bigger piece of the pie. There’s no free lunch, the only way to get a bigger piece of the pie is to earn it, actually make the pie. Otherwise what he’s saying here is somehow tax the rich and what, simply give money to the poor? Isn’t that called welfare and isn’t that one of Clinton’s biggest accomplishments, the lowering of welfare payments, setting up work-for-welfare programs to help people get off of it? The question never answered by the tax the rich crowd is precisely what are they going to do with the money and how does that help the poor? Without that answer it’s must another slogan.

It boils down to what is any individual poor person qualified to do? If they have a 8th grade education, no training, what can they do? Maybe work a call center for ten bucks an hour, work at Micky D’s, even be an assistant with me doing basic simple data entry. All that is worth about ten bucks an hour. How is taxing the rich going to change that reality? lets say a highly educated person is forced to work the call center for that ten bucks and we all feel sorry for them, understand that’s a very tough road to go on but somehow taxing the rich is going to open up a better job? Maybe the answer is to raise the wage at the call center to twenty bucks? Ok, what does that do to the costs for the company running the call center or Micky D’s or anyplace else that uses low qualified people? It raises those cost a whole lot so the prices for the final product goes way up and what does that do? Remember Nixon and price controls and Jimmy Carter and 18% inflation?

This is all crap.


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jazzmammal #131493 11/09/11 12:43 PM
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You make some good points, however .. his reason on raising taxes is to pick up some of the debt burden, as I read it. Not for welfare.

And for an uneducated person a $10/hour job right now is a big deal. You said it yourself; "the only way to get a bigger piece of the pie is to earn it, actually make the pie" and this is what the *highly educated* people are much more likely to accomplish. Having them take that $10/hour job is not helping anybody. It's aweful hard to "make a bigger pie" when nobody is willing to invest in the little guy right now.

Since you said Clinton's biggest accomplishment was "lowering of welfare payments, setting up work-for-welfare programs to help people" I'm surprised you took some of his statements as you did. More than one of the top 1% have said "I should pay more taxes" and still you argue it.

The housing is a big mess, and I'm sorry to say it but if anyone is taking a hit it is homeowners right now, more than banks. I own a home, didn't participate in the McMansion fad (even though I was a builder and could have for reduced cost), and I have taken a hit. I owned my home outright before this mess occurred and am still paying for the mortgage mess; Lowered value, inability to borrow against properties I own .. How is that the right? Banks won't loan to customers with a proven track record even, without jumping through hoops. I owned my home, easily borrowed against it for another property, paid that off ahead of time, and now can't get a loan for 1/4 the (current) value of the home without all kinds of problems. I tried and got so frustrated I moved my accounts just because of how I was treated. If a good customer, who was never late, with collateral can't get a loan how do I make a bigger piece of pie? Maybe I'm not bootstrappy enough but it sure seems tough right now for the little guy, educated or not.

As for Nixon and Carter; I was young then. I do remember them, but not as well as you do I guess. I know Carter's period didn't go so well economically, and Nixon, well I only know history for him. I was in grade school then, maybe Jr High. Not really up on the economics at the time.


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rharv #131494 11/09/11 01:55 PM
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If the federal government stayed within the confines of the Constitution, the problems would not have occurred. The debt would not exist. The need for taxes would be less.

rharv #131495 11/09/11 02:03 PM
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Quote:

You make some good points, however .. his reason on raising taxes is to pick up some of the debt burden, as I read it. Not for welfare.




It is extremely difficult to try to make points on a very complex subject like this without including disclaimer after disclaimer in an attempt to clarify what I'm trying to say. "Pick up some of the debt burden." It's been pointed out multiple times on the business networks that if you were to take every cent every rich person has for an entire year, the 1%, it would barely make a dent. Raising their taxes by a few percent means squat except for the very important psychological impact. If people feel they're getting screwed fairly or not they tend to turtle up and do nothing. Whether or not they can afford it is beside the point. When you and I look at our tax returns and see some thousands of dollars going to the IRS, we're not happy but not too worried about how they're spending the money either. But, when you're writing a check for taxes in the amount of say 10 mil even if you're worth 500 mil the thought crosses your mind "I wonder what they're really doing with this money." People like that actually write out and sign the check, "invisible witholdings" doesn't enter into it. If he thinks they're really just wasting it with frivolous spending programs he's not in the mood to give them more regardless of how much he has. The problem is systemic, built into the system of huge government spending and spending and more spending.

I knew it would come to this eventually if someone really wants to discuss this in detail. Start here:

http://www.american.com/archive/2011/august/obamasfollytaxingtherich

Then read the footnotes showing where the quotes came from, find out who these people are and read the links as well. It's deep, it's not easy and it will make your eyes glaze over. It's impossible to make these points without writing a detailed article like this one which is of course not possible in a simple forum like this.

Bob


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jazzmammal #131496 11/09/11 03:26 PM
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[qoute]The problem is systemic, built into the system of huge government spending and spending and more spending.
[/qoute]

No argument there. Getting spending down and collections up makes twice the difference (or a ratio of such). I'm sure we can't tax our way out of this, but if it is attacked at both ends it will be resolved quicker.

I will read your link when I have a little time, sounds like it may take a while.


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rharv #131497 11/10/11 01:25 AM
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A major loophole in discussions like these is that the dynamics are ignored. Sure you won't solve the problems by taxing the rich in a short time line, it wouldn't make a dent. It will take just as long to solve the problems as it took to make them in the first place. National debts and widespread corruption didn't happen overnight. But you have to start somewhere. The system is broken and needs to be fixed. The opinion of prominent finance gurus doesn't mean much when you consider that they got us into this mess in the first place.
It has been said many times before that society and values as such have degenerated, and this is where the dynamics come in. It takes a long time for people to accept that violence and corruption is a fact of life, just like people living in a war zone come to accept that killing is a way of life. Most people have resigned themselves to the fact that things are only going to get worse, so why bother. It will take a long time to regain a sense of optimism. Unfortunately the democratic roundabout of politics means that any unpopular solutions are going to get voted out in the next election. The situation that Rharv mentioned concerning loans is happening globally. The average guy cannot help but suspect a systematic screwing of the public at large. At first glance it doesn't make sense strangling small business by withholding credit, after all the whole system is built on credit. Unless there is an ultimate motive. It may seem far fetched, but a strategy of global dominance is behind it. Don't laugh, it has happenend nationally on a smaller scale many times before. Also don't knock the Occupy or similar movements, just because they haven't got programmes fixed yet, they are but months old, whereas this systematic oppresion has been going on for hundreds of years. It is also no surprise that their disciples are to be found in all top levels of commerce and politics, and that they defiantly obstruct change at all levels, they have a lot to lose. In the age of information it has become easier to con people, but by the same token it could become easier to educate people. Educated masses are the enemy of the privileged classes, so wise up! and stand up and be counted! It's time to think small again and get back to basics.


Chris
jazzmammal #131498 11/11/11 09:51 AM
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And what does the other 99% end up with...maybe...TB...it's spreading among the Atlanta protestors....??

"With wintry weather poised to swoop into the cramped outdoor quarters of Occupy Wall Street protesters, it may not be long before more campers catch what's being called "Zuccotti lung."

That's what demonstrators have dubbed the sickness that seems to be spreading among them at an unpleasantly high rate these days: "It's a real thing," Willie Carey, 28, told the New York Times.


I was a stockbroker/financial planner (huh??)...

Trained in NYC'S Merril-Lynch main hdq's. from Jan through April in 1970..with
passing marks on the NYSE/NASDAQ/OPTIONS/COMMODITIES TRADING!? Huh, again!! Yep!

I could write a book about swaps/shortselling/commodities shinnanigans...

I retired in 1990, having by then been hired by Hornblower & Weeks, Dominick & Dominick,
Paine-Weber/...and a couple more...ending up at John Hancock....

Got to the "top-of-the-cock"...and "threw in the sponge"...

What foibles these "stock jockies" have engendered...it was such a great way to make money...
all the banks "climbed over the Glass-Segal Act"...and without catching their breath
"took the doubt out of "derrivatives"...and set forth as "world-connivers" to promote
their wares to the uninitiated...they should all be shot....except me...and Congress????

"As many as a dozen members of Congress and their aides took part in insider trading based on foreknowledge of market moving information on Capitol Hill, disgraced Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff told CNBC in an interview." "Fable of the Day" So much insider trading, it's widespread! We used to call Allan Abramson,
of the WSJ'd Friday editions of "Heard on the Street"...so as we could "front-ride" on upcoming "scoops" he
could report on the forthcoming Friday edition...Awww...come on...everybody do it!!

Only one survivor of my last brokerage house which specialized in short selling...
his name...Jim Chanos...who later went to NYC to set up one of the most successful
Hedge Funds...Jame (a Harvard Grad who had his first job with our firm, Gilford Securities,
called it "Niconus" after one of his Greek Gods..."Nikonus".

Anyway, he's still going strong as a multi-multi-multi-millionaire...what a crystal ball he had.... Huh?
He sure had this "crap shoot" all figured out!





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GDaddy #131499 11/12/11 06:04 AM
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/financial-pro-lost-house-191003606.html

Here's what I see .. the bank loaned him 100% of the money for the home. His thought, like many others was “Wow. I guess if they’re willing to lend it to us it must be O.K.” I know, bad decision on his part, but encouraged by the bank none-the-less.

The bank made interest on that loan from 2003 thru 2009. I'll let Jazzmammal tell me how much that would be. When the guy realized he couldn't afford it the bank then got the home sale for 531k. Who lost in this deal?
Honestly asking. The guy lost a lot, everything he gave the bank for 7 years on a half million loan. I'm sure the bank lost some on the second mortgage (200k) but he must had that equity paid in already to get the second loan.. it gets complicated for a simple guy like me.
The bank then repackaged and sold it of course (crashing markets and any investments the guy had), but we won't even worry about that part for now.

Last edited by rharv; 11/12/11 06:31 AM.

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rharv #131500 11/12/11 07:39 AM
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I'm just so glad none of that happened here. We had almost 100% financing, but you can't easily pay more than 25 percent of income to pay loans. My Dad, who's 84 now, worked in the the family Legal Real Estate office for 55 years. In that time he saw less than a dozen foreclosures, and he said over half were under the table gambling debts.

I used to inspect bank foreclosures, about 1 a year, often due to being grow ops.

120 homes on my crescent, all just over 200k here, worth 2 million in Toronto, well maybe 800k. Never had a bad neighbour, no vacancies, no vandalism. Heck my next door neighbour put out 2 old tv's a month ago, and they survived halloween. Shocked even me, as a kid I'd have put a sling shot marble right through the picture tubes. But then I was a bad boy.


John Conley
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John Conley #131501 11/12/11 07:50 AM
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Quote:

Heck my next door neighbour put out 2 old tv's a month ago, and they survived halloween. Shocked even me, as a kid I'd have put a sling shot marble right through the picture tubes. But then I was a bad boy.





and I suspect you still are John.


note to self: don't send John a slingshot for Christmas

Pat Marr #131502 11/12/11 08:41 AM
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Could it really just be that the kids nowadays simply aren't allowed to get their hands on or even build a common slingshot anymore?

rharv #131503 11/12/11 08:45 AM
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In Ireland 100% morgages were standard until the bust. I read somewhere that a new Irish bank, which was formed from the remnants of a defunct bank, is now planning to reintroduce it. Albeit to select customers who have a guarantor in the family who can put up property as security.
If the Occupy movement achieves nothing else, it has given people food for thought, and hopefully they won't believe the fairytales spread by experts any more.

Last edited by sinbad; 11/12/11 01:57 PM.

Chris
CeeBee #131504 11/12/11 09:27 AM
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Actually a few years after the slingshot stage and I'd have take the 2 tv's to the garage and got out my voltmeter and my carbon arc furnace that popped dad's fuses and put on an old white lab coat and got out the soldering iron and burnt myself and got 3 shocks. But maybe only the speakers worked but I'd have had them under some porch hooked up to the little amp and yelled in the mic to scare my sister's friends. Ha...until I turned 16 and took up women. Game changer that women thing.

PS. I just checked out the window. Sunny Saturday a.m. 11:30, 4 kids playing street hockey, 3 girls jumping in leaves, and the 2 tv sets are still there. Picture tubes intact, but slowly loosing all the copper components to squirrels. Said squirrels are trying to launch an attack on my bird feeders, nuts. They need the copper.

On the good news front I made so much noise about my 25 year shingles crapping out at 8 years, that I got a refund for the 2003 roof job (2900 bucks) and the new job is costing me that plus 1200 more. For 40 year shingles with the same company and now laminated or some such thing. I'll be long gone before any 40 years. Worm bait.

Besides Ella Fitzgerald said it best, what woman would want a man...you get it.


John Conley
Musica est vita
John Conley #131505 11/12/11 10:35 AM
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Watch the language please, Chris. If we let this get a little too political, a little too emotional, the mods will close this thread because it's way off the rules of the forum. You make some valid, thoughtful points keep em coming.

Rharv, that article might as well be me. Exactly the same scenario except I work for a CPA firm and our clients ask us all the time for financial advice. We were telling people to buy a house if they could at the time for the exact same reason this guy said, if you don't the prices will run away from you and you'll be left behind and your family will be renters forever.

My business partner in several RE transactions is a CPA and a very smart guy. He was doing consulting for a large NY RE investment syndicate doing 200 million dollar deals in 2003-2006. They would fly him out for 7-10 days simply to review one of those transactions and he always found something that would save them several hundred grand and they would pay him 20-40 and in one case 70K plus expenses. As I said, he's a very smart guy. I thought I had an "inside line" on how the RE market worked and where it was going. Bottom line we lost 4 houses, that NY company has cut back something like 70% and my partner works for another CPA firm in LA at half the money he was making 5 years ago. The way Carl Richards describes the vibe during that time, looking for properties, the long lines, making offers at full asking price before you get outbid is exactly what happened because I lived it too.

It still boils down to looking at the big global picture here. By that I mean the principles of this country and our capitalist system. The system works, it's been proven for over 200 years and while these problems happen and will happen in the future, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the system yet these protesters know squat about that and somehow want to throw all that away and replace it with what, exactly? They certainly don't know but if we were somehow able to get inside their heads and root around most of us suspect some kind of top down socialistic Marxist ideology is hiding in there.

Just because the insider trading and corruption GDaddy talked about exists, has existed, will continue to exist still doesn't mean poor people with no education, no skills, no training can somehow earn the kind of money they think they are "entitled" to just because the rich fat cats are making the majority of the money. That has nothing to do with it. It's still a free country with a free economy. Regardless of how much the big boys make, if someone has a good college degree or some technical job skills they will be fine in the long run. This isn't the only recession based on a bubble in the history of this country and it won't be the last. Something else to research is the concept of the Business Cycle. Read up on that, it's pretty eye opening.

Bob


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jazzmammal #131506 11/17/11 05:55 AM
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http://news.yahoo.com/patriotic-millionaires-beg-supercommittee-higher-taxes-185620525.html

Quote:

Patriotic Millionaire Robert Johnson, former chief economist of the U.S Senate banking committee, said that the current economic system is not broken, but it is "working on behalf of those who designed it in their favor."

"America is no longer based on markets and capitalism, instead our economy is designed as 'socialism for the rich' – it is designed to ensure that the wealthiest people take all of the gains, while regular Americans cover any losses,"





Then what he says next gets interesting.


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Mac #131507 11/17/11 07:40 AM
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Quote:

Could it really just be that the kids nowadays simply aren't allowed to get their hands on or even build a common slingshot anymore?




Very profound my friend.

Later,

Danny C. #131508 11/17/11 07:57 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Could it really just be that the kids nowadays simply aren't allowed to get their hands on or even build a common slingshot anymore?




Very profound my friend.

Later,




You can still buy a Wrist Rocket. But when was the last time you saw a chemistry set?


"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
Ryszard #131509 11/17/11 08:20 AM
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Chemistry sets have a certain risk involved to the manufacturer in our suit happy society. Making your own slingshot kinda removes that risk and shows a self sufficiency. I see the point.

Kids have been lowered to Mentos in Pepsi, chemistry-wise.


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rharv #131510 11/17/11 11:49 AM
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Right. That's exactly why so many young doctors, computer wiz kids, other highly technical electronic, engineering, other physical sciences are jobs being filled by at least 50% foreign born people in this country. Here in California it's mostly Asian. American kids are not getting the kind of education they need to survive in that world. The same world that our politicians keep talking about btw. Good paying, highly skilled jobs with good benefits. The same politicians never talk about counselling for these kids while they're still in high school that they must, repeat must be taking math, chemistry and other hard sciences if they're going to have any chance at those jobs. Somebody needs to drive some of those 8th grade kids around back of a Chinese restaurant, look in the kitchen and tell them if you don't get your algebra and chem and physics grades up this is your future.

Anybody here read some articles about that high tech city in India? Can't remember the name of it but it's basically a collection of very good high tech schools in a huge enclave surrounded by Indian mud poor poverty. This one area is where most of the Indian high tech people come from and it's the same in various places in the Far East too. We can't keep subsidising via student loans kids getting degrees in subjects that are completely worthless in the open job market. Yes this is a free country and a kid is perfectly free to take whatever crap courses he wants but that doesn't mean taxpayers pay for it.

Switching gears here, on the news this morning is a quote from someone who's part of the Occupy LA crowd downtown who's taken over a BOFA branch. The quote is the bank has stolen from all of us and we're going to stay until they pay it back. My question to anybody here is what exactly has BOFA stolen and how did they steal it? I know some will say hey, it's those mortgages from Countrywide that BOFA bought out and it caused my house in my neighborhood to lose 50 grand in value and that's theft, isn't it? Well even that is not BOFA's fault it's the fault of FannyMae and FreddicMac. Those are the quasi government agencies who were forced by Congress to gurantee all those loans and by extension that flowed through to BOFA and the other banks. This again is very complicated but that's basically it. Then, when those mortgages were packeged up and sold as mortgage backed securities even that isn't the banks fault when people try to say that was fraud because the big ratings agencies Standard & Poor's and Moody's are the ones who gave those loan bundles a grade A rating. A bank isn't allowed to rate their own stuff and just sell it. So, who should those protesters be marching in front of again? I would say Congress, the White House and those ratings agencies.

Bob


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www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#volume-automation

Video: Audio Input Monitoring with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®

We've created this short video to explain Audio Input Monitoring within Band-in-a-Box® 2024, and included some tips & troubleshooting details too!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024: Audio Input Monitoring

3:17: Tips
5:10: Troubleshooting

www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024full/chapter11.htm#audio-input-monitoring

Video: Enhanced Melodists in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows®!

We've enhanced the Melodists feature included in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows!

Access the Melodist feature by pressing F7 in the program to open the new MultiPicker Library and locate the [Melodist] tab.

You can now generate a melody on any track in the program - very handy! Plus, you select how much of the melody you want generated - specify a range, or apply it to the whole track.

See the Melodist in action with our video, Band-in-a-Box® 2024: The Melodist Window.

Learn even more about the enhancements to the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/manuals/bbw2024upgrade/chapter3.htm#enhanced-melodist

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

New with the DAW Plugin Version 6.0, released with Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows: the Reaper® Panel!

This new panel offers built-in specific support for the Reaper® DAW API allowing direct transfer of Band-in-a-Box® files to/from Reaper® tracks!

When you run the Plugin from Reaper®, there is a panel to set the following options:
-BB Track(s) to send: This allows you to select the Plugin tracks that will be sent Reaper.
-Destination Reaper Track: This lets you select the destination Reaper track to receive media content from the Plugin.
-At Bar: You can select a bar in Reaper where the Plugin tracks should be placed.
-Start Below Selected Track: This allows you to place the Plugin tracks below the destination Reaper track.
-Overwrite Reaper Track: You can overwrite previous content on the destination Reaper track.
-Move to Project Folder: With this option, you can move the Plugin tracks to the Reaper project folder.
-Send Reaper Instructions Enable this option to send the Reaper Instructions instead of rendering audio tracks, which is faster.
-Render Audio & Instructions: Enable this option to generate audio files and the Reaper instructions.
-Send Tracks After Generating: This allows the Plugin to automatically send tracks to Reaper after generating.
-Send Audio for MIDI Track: Enable this option to send rendered audio for MIDI tracks.
-Send RealCharts with Audio: If this option is enabled, Enable this option to send RealCharts with audio.

Check out this video highlighting the new Reaper®-specific features: Band-in-a-Box® DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Specifically for Reaper®

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 DAW Plugin Version 6: New Features Video

The new Band-in-a-Box VST DAW Plugin Verion 6 adds over 20 new features!

Watch the new features video to learn more: Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2024 - DAW Plugin Version 6 New Features

We also list these new features at www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.plugin.htm.

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