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#131451 - 11/04/11 03:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
rubberball103 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 297
Loc: NW corner of S. Nowhere
Quote:

Create the law Thursday afternoon and start enforcing Friday at 3 AM.
http://news.yahoo.com/police-arrest-29-occupy-nashville-protesters-capitol-plaza-163045782.html

I laughed out loud when I read how the Commisioner responded to the arrests at the jail..
at least one person involved had some common sense.




Greenest state in the land of the free. Not any more I guess.

Looks like TN has about 75 more state troopers than it really needs.
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#131452 - 11/04/11 03:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: John Conley]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
I agree Mick, we have seriously strayed and continue to do so. I guess that is part of the protest purpose also. Things are not as they should be, but again; if I asked you for demands (solutions) would you have them? Realistically? Because if you said repeal everything back to Wilson you'd be on Fox Noose quicker than you can blink, being ridiculed like the OWS is.

Maybe that explains a lot. We are so far off track that the solution is going to sound silly.
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#131453 - 11/04/11 03:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
FWIW rubberball103, they tried again the next night, too, and the commissioner of the jail again shot them down, releasing everybody (with a ticket this time). He said they have no legal right to change the park law like they did. The comissioner is actually the night judge for the jail.
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#131454 - 11/04/11 03:34 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
Mick Emery Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 1345
Loc: Needmore, PA, USA
I know many people who say, "I like Ron Paul, BUT...when he says ".......[fill in the blanks]"
Ron Paul is SO constitutional it isn't funny. The points, of his, that people disagree with, are the very reason we have the problems today. "I think we should abide by the constitution...BUT"....

It either is or it isn't. When we impose our own wishes upon it, we lose the country that was invented by the founding fathers. We, like the politicians, think we know better. Or that they must have forgotten something.
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#131455 - 11/04/11 03:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: Mick Emery]
KeithS Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 901
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Quote:

Want to put up a fence in YOUR yard...you need a permit. (permission)



Because your fence doesn't just impact your property but your neighbor's property as well.
Quote:

Want to cut hair? You need a license. (please don't come back with..."we gotta make sure you can do it.")



Well, that is exactly what you have to come back with. Someone who doesn't know how to do it properly can spread disease, and cause harm with dangerous chemicals that are used by the profession. By your logic we shouldn't license Physicians and Lawyers, because, well, the bad ones will not get enough customers to stay in business. Quite often the professional associations lobby for regulation to keep amatuers and quacks from giving the whole profession a black eye.
Quote:

Want to get married? You need a license. WTF???



Probably has something to do with the states not wanting Omar to marry off his 8 year old daughter to a 60 year old geezer for monetary consideration. At least it keeps a couple of 12 year olds from getting married to each other.
Quote:

If the gov. thinks it knows what the best use of YOUR land is...they can take it!



Actually the founders wrote that into the Constituion....in an amendment at least. Its called eminent domain.
Quote:

Want to drill a well on YOUR property for water? You need a permit.



As well you should. You share the water table with your neighbors. If you or the person you hire doesn't do it properly you can contaminant the water table for miles around. Folks who drill wells usually also need septic tanks and septic disposal fields for sewage. Place the well improperly in relation to the various componenets of your onsite sewage system and you contaminate the water table for everyone.

The reason that the government got involved in regulating most of this stuff is they saw the harm that was done when it was not regulated and stepped in to take control and maintain standards. Notice also that most of the regulatory action cited is the province and responsibility of the state and local governement, not the federal government, and pretty much all 50 states have developed codes to regulate these activies. It is pretty telling that 50 different state governments came up with the same or similar regulations.

For the record, I've spent the majority of my adult working years working for an agency that regulates onsite sewage, food service to the public, drilling of wells for drinking water, disposal of dead bodies, what you can do with your garbage, how your plumbing needs to be installed, places that take care of your kids, tatoo parlors, public swimming pools, exposure to second hand smoke, and yes, facilities that cut hair. There is no way that I would advocate total freedom to do whatever you want in any of these areas. Your hair would curl if you saw some of the things I've seen people try to do....And I get to see behind the curtain because of my regulatory authority, John Q. Public doesn't get to see the incompetence and lack of concern for consequences to others that I get to see.
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#131456 - 11/04/11 06:00 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: KeithS]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
I can only speak for what I know. Septic systems are suppose to perk 'up', not leach down. It can leach down to a water table 150' from the well just as easily.

And states tend to accept 'national' regulations. Like the building code. Hurricane clips are required in Michigan and Illinois. Really? When was the last hurricane? We have tornadoes, and those clips will just make the top plate go with the rest of the roof. Make 'em strap it from roof to foundation if anything. But then again, my shed (nailed properly) has survived the same 30+ years of storms as the house with the national building code requirements.

Sometimes it's just overdone.
Don't even get me started on stuff like 'fire-rated plywood'. I've had to stand face-to-face with Fire Chiefs and tell them I have to use it because of 'national codes' (even though he begged me not to because it risks lives of firemen).
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#131457 - 11/04/11 06:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
KeithS Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 901
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Quote:

I can only speak for what I know. Septic systems are suppose to perk 'up', not leach down. It can leach down to a water table 150' from the well just as easily.





I've only been in Public Health for 30 years so its nice to be educated by someone who really knows. Septic systems are designed to perculate down into the soil so that by the time effuent from the tank reach the water table, all of the bacteria are left in the soil and the water reaching the water table is pure. The problem with the well, is the fool who drills in a manner that allows the effluent to run straight down to the water table without perculating through the soil.

I've actually written local codes in Mobile, AL, and the process is one of taking the international standards and adapting them. Local code officials can agree to strike anything from the code that has not already been proven to be a health and safety hazard. Absolutely surreal hearing your story about the Fire Chief because the International Code Council had to change some of their voting rules this past year because the firefighters were running bus loads of people to the code meeting to vote in things they wanted. Last year they pushed through a code that required all buildings, including private homes to have sprinkler systems.

I'll also say that at least in this jurisdiction, we sit down with all of the players (homebuilders, plumbers, septic tank installers, etc) and get them to bless off on code changes before we submit them for adoption to the County Commission and City Council.
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#131458 - 11/04/11 07:34 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: KeithS]
Mick Emery Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 1345
Loc: Needmore, PA, USA
Keith...
You should run for congress. You'd fit right in.
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#131459 - 11/04/11 07:42 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: KeithS]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Wow, sprinklers in residential?? That's ridiculous. Actually just another point made about regulations. I'm sure you know fire-rated plywood chars before burning (reducing it's strength) so the fire marshall was asking me to not actually install it between units on a multi dwelling complex. His worry was that fireman walk across a roof with shingles still intact and fall thru to a fire below. Made sense to me. I still put it in to meet code.

If septic seeps down, why all the sand on top of the system? I'm quite sure up here they count on it to perk up. Like I said, they have designed systems that pump the liquid to the field, spray it into the sand to perk up, and boast it will work above any soil. Even paved, in theory. Their sales point, not mine, and it is an accepted system here. How does it seep into frozen ground? We get 4' frost here. Septic filds are nowhere near that deep.

They required the above mentioned system near a true artesian well that they had trouble capping only 60' down, BTW.

I'm not an engineer, just a builder trying to comply with all the codes. I'll research fields up here just because of your link.
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#131460 - 11/04/11 08:02 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
OK. 90% of the septic fields I put in were 'mound' type fields. This puts the field above the surrounding area, surrounded by sand. The liquid soaks into the sand and disperses. I'm sure some of it soaks 'down' as well as up and out. The theory here is that it disperses (since it is often hard clay and the sand mound lets it spread out and evaporate up while the clay holds it from seeping down). Different areas different issues.
Still, if it *does* seep down, is distance really an issue?
And the 'fool who does the well' is a totally different guy than the guy who does the septic field. At least up here it is. Well guy has a drill truck. Septic is more an excavation guy with heavy equipment.
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#131461 - 11/04/11 09:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
After rereading I get your issue with well guys drilling in such a way septic could drain down. I see that problem now. Guess licensing doesn't matter much if they still do the work like that.
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#131462 - 11/04/11 09:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: Mick Emery]
KeithS Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 901
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Quote:

Keith...
You should run for congress. You'd fit right in.




One thing for sure you will never see and that is someone run for office on a platform of doing away with permits for cutting hair, or putting up a fence, or drilling a well, or doing away with marriage licenses and it isn't because the people who run government are subverting the constitution. It is like that because that is what the majority of people want. If that were not so, then some lunatic could run on an anarchy platform and get elected tomorrow because everyone would vote for him.
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#131463 - 11/04/11 10:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rubberball103]
GDaddy Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
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Loc: Homosassa , Florida
WANT TO BE AN ANARCHIST FOR THE NEXT OCCUPY "RIOT"...!!??...

GOSH, HOW CHEAP TO PERHAPS EVEN END UP WITH A "FREE" 42" TV OR GUCCI BAG?

http://www.partycity.com/product/v+for+vendetta+mask.do

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#131464 - 11/05/11 12:17 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: GDaddy]
Mick Emery Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/02/06
Posts: 1345
Loc: Needmore, PA, USA
Quote:

After rereading I get your issue with well guys drilling in such a way septic could drain down. I see that problem now. Guess licensing doesn't matter much if they still do the work like that.



I do business in 5 states. In MD, you must be licensed.
In my field, you are either licensed through the home remodeling association or work with a well driller's license. In the test given by the state to get your license, NOT ONE SINGLE QUESTION is asked about the trade. Not one! The questions all pertain to regulations, payroll & taxes. So you really don't have to know how to do what you do, you just need to have enough money to get the license & know where to send the taxes & how much to send. So much for licensing...

Inspectors??? They have their heads so far up their ass, they're looking out their eyes a 2nd time. (but I think they're licensed to do that)
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#131465 - 11/05/11 09:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: Mick Emery]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Same with the license test here in MI.
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#131466 - 11/05/11 11:30 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6588
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
That does sound bizarre to me. As I mentioned in another thread, I'm an Enrolled Agent and my test was what you would think it should be, taxes, taxes and more taxes plus all the legal stuff associated with them.

Since you guys are describing things I know squat about all I can say is the only way to change things is to get active in local politics. Become part of the local establishment, make your voice heard where it counts.

Keith, thank you for posting your detailed answers because I was going to make the exact same points but you did it much better than I would have.

Mick and RHarv all you guys are describing are the normal problems associated with democracy and it goes to the most often quoted cliche there is:

Democracy is the worst form of government ever created except for everything else.

This is a cliche because it's true. Any other system leads to the collapse of civilization. All any of us can do is swallow hard and become part of the system and work hard on these issues that are important to you personally and try to change things.

To become part of a disorganized mob living in tents with no clear objectives is just a complete waste of time.

Bob

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (11/05/11 11:32 AM)
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#131467 - 11/05/11 02:41 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: jazzmammal]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18966
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
I notice nobody commented on a solution to a single one of the problems I posted, or how by asking OWS for demands you are asking them for solutions. I don't think protesting what you know is wrong is a waste of time. Even if you don't have the answers.

Vietnam war solution was easy (get out), racial issues were easy (get rid of inequality).
Banking, investment and fed reserve are very complex to ask the average joe to figure out how to fix. You're a numbers guy Bob, what's the solution?
While yer at it, solve the euro crisis for us.
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#131468 - 11/06/11 09:18 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: rharv]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Look up how many people were killed, tortured, sent away to "re-education camps" because the US pulled out of Vietnam.

From Stalin thru Mao, Che, Castro, N. Korea and then Vietnam, there are millions of dead human beings as a result of their communist enlightenment.

As Stalin himself once glibly quipped about it, "One death is a murder, a million dead is a statistic."

A system that has failed miserably every time it has been tried.

No. Thanks.


--Mac
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#131469 - 11/06/11 09:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: Mac]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
People should take care of people. After that, for those who have no people, the government, or the Big People, should be there for them. My people will assemble, participate in the production of a 'feast', and talk of days gone by this sunny November afternoon. Plus music. About a dozen family, from 86 to 2.
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#131470 - 11/06/11 09:59 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Occupy... [Re: Mac]
silvertones Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7238
Quote:

Inspectors??? They have their heads so far up their ass, they're looking out their eyes a 2nd time. (but I think they're licensed to do that)




Mick,
I pegged you for being a smarter guy then this statement portrays. I'm an ICC Certified Inspector in all trades. I'm also specifically Licensed in Florida & North Carolina. Making general statements such as this are ignorant. I assure you that my head is not up my butt and that I can build what i inspect. There are many like me. There are also many that are not.

As far as the International Code Council.We do not have a National Code. The ICC writes a "model" Code in order to help bring a little consistency in the overall format. ICC code is a best case everything be equal kind of Code. A Building Code is adopted by individual States. If your State has adopted the ICC Code in it's entirety without looking at things specific to your State, and amending it accordingly, that is their fault. Not the ICC.It was never meant to be adopted in it's entirety.It's a model. That's all.
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