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#131579 - 10/20/11 03:45 PM [Off-Topic] A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis
jazzmammal Offline
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http://www.popsci.com/science/article/20...iss-researchers

I'm not one for conspiricy theories and it even says in this article that there's no evidence that all these entities actually work together to run the whole world.

You can tell this is a few years old because Lehman Brothers is on the list and they went under in 2008 but it's interesting none the less.

I know it's not music related but I thought I would throw it out there anyway since it's been kinda quiet around here lately. If we can keep comments away from political mud slinging maybe the mods will be ok with it.

Bob
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#131580 - 10/20/11 04:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: jazzmammal]
Glenn Kolot Offline
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Interesting topic; I'll take a crack at it. And won't get into politics:

Your example of the world's banks is in fact well known - why else would US and Canadian banks be worried about the welfare of European banks? This isn't a hypothesis - it's reality.


There are more possibilities:

Virtually every country that has a semblance of democracy, has realized that monopolies don't serve the country or the people well. Consequently, they have enacted anti-monopoly laws (anti-trust in the US).

The financial interests of companies/corporations are best served if they have a monopoly. By the same token, this isn't in the interests of the general population of the country as it limits competition which we pretty all believe is a good thing for society.

If companies weren't involved in creating monopolies (or groups of monopolies) the legislation wouldn't have been required. My naivety level is low enough that I know they are still attempting to create monopolies one way or another.

Background - interesting reading - I had no idea the concept has been around this long:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_law

Glenn

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#131581 - 10/20/11 04:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: Glenn Kolot]
rharv Offline
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#131582 - 10/20/11 05:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: rharv]
Glenn Kolot Offline
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Quote:

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/?id=9e2a4ea8-6e73-4be2-a753-62060dcbb3c3




Yikes.

I think the comment "socialism for the rich" would be more accurate if it read, "stealing from the poor to give to the rich."

I've been following the federal debt situation in the US, and I wonder, does this amount ADD to the debt of about 14 trillion that's been public for a few years? Please tell me I've got it wrong.

I'm starting to shake.

Glenn

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#131583 - 10/20/11 06:35 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: Glenn Kolot]
Mick Emery Offline
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The quote, "no agency of the federal government...etc" just shows the ignorance of our elected representatives. The Federal Reserve is not a government agency. It never was/never will be. It is a PRIVATELY owned bank. Many of the owners are not even American citizens.
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#131584 - 10/20/11 06:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: Glenn Kolot]
jazzmammal Offline
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Quote:

I think the comment "socialism for the rich" would be more accurate if it read, "stealing from the poor to give to the rich."




This sounds good Glenn and most of the Wall Street protesters would agree but the facts are that the bottom 40-50% of wage earners in the US pay no federal income tax at all and the ones truly poor at the poverty level qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit. That's a form of federal welfare that pays them several grand a year depending on how many children they have. That's not to say they don't pay local sales and other taxes but on the federal level, they're paying zero income tax. The wealthiest 1% pay over 50% of income taxes while the top 10% pay over 70% of federal income taxes. These numbers are available on the IRS website.

This means the merely rich are paying the super rich so it's inaccurate to say the poor are paying anything, they're not. It still stinks, the whole international monetary system is beyond the pale and I think Sanders makes some good points.

Bob
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#131585 - 10/20/11 08:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: Mick Emery]
PRearden Offline
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Quote:

The quote, "no agency of the federal government...etc" just shows the ignorance of our elected representatives. The Federal Reserve is not a government agency. It never was/never will be. It is a PRIVATELY owned bank. Many of the owners are not even American citizens.




This is true, but MOST people don't realize it. If the general populous knew this one fact, I think they'd be pissed off.

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#131586 - 10/20/11 08:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: PRearden]
rharv Offline
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If you care to research farther, you'll find surprising things. The list of participants is much like the original list posted, which is why I thought it fit. They are all intertwined.

And it doesn't add to our debt because this isn't money we borrowed; it's money we loaned.. so they now owe us technically.
And the above comments are correct, the Fed Reserve is a private institution, not part of federal government. They just control things like interest rates, the value of our dollar, etc.
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#131587 - 10/21/11 05:05 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: jazzmammal]
filkertom Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

I think the comment "socialism for the rich" would be more accurate if it read, "stealing from the poor to give to the rich."




This sounds good Glenn and most of the Wall Street protesters would agree but the facts are that the bottom 40-50% of wage earners in the US pay no federal income tax at all and the ones truly poor at the poverty level qualify for the Earned Income Tax Credit. That's a form of federal welfare that pays them several grand a year depending on how many children they have. That's not to say they don't pay local sales and other taxes but on the federal level, they're paying zero income tax. The wealthiest 1% pay over 50% of income taxes while the top 10% pay over 70% of federal income taxes. These numbers are available on the IRS website.

This means the merely rich are paying the super rich so it's inaccurate to say the poor are paying anything, they're not. It still stinks, the whole international monetary system is beyond the pale and I think Sanders makes some good points.

Bob


(Emphasis mine.)

This was all debunked a year and a half ago.
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#131588 - 10/21/11 08:59 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: filkertom]
flatfoot Offline
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Notice that on thepanel on the right, you can access back issues of Popular Science. Very cool stuff. The day when we all get personal hovercraft is just around the corner!
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#131589 - 10/21/11 10:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: flatfoot]
Mick Emery Offline
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If you watch 5 minutes of this & stop, I'd be surprised.
Here is a history of the central bank. (worldwide)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXt1cayx0hs&feature=player_embedded#!
I downloaded the entire video to my desktop & watched in in several sessions. It's mind blowing to say the least.


Edited by Mick Emery (10/21/11 10:53 AM)
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#131590 - 10/21/11 11:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: filkertom]
jazzmammal Offline
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Quote:

This was all debunked a year and a half ago.




I knew someone would point this out Tom, that's why I left it out of that post. Excellent article btw. Note where it says a lot of people say payroll taxes should be left out of the discussion about the 47% because that pays for benefits and they're not an income tax because everybody pays the same rate. That's true and I agree. Fwiw I'm an Enrolled Agent, a tax pro. I'm licensed by the IRS to represent you as a taxpayer before the IRS if you have a tax problem.

Two points here, first there's a lot of talk about having a means test to help solve the Social Security and Medicare problem. That means if you make above a certain level you would not receive the benefits. Fine but if you've paid into the system your whole life and it's for a guaranteed benefit, not simply an income tax and then when you retire you happen to be lucky enough to have retirement income above that level you get nothing? I'm not one of those people but that's certainly not fair at all. If they're going to do that then the person should at least get their SS and Medicare tax money back don't you think? Otherwise it's just another political lie, the SS and Medicare money is in fact just more income tax.

Second is the Warren Buffet argument about the rich should at least pay the same tax rate as his secretary. That's totally and completely bogus. The rich get a lot if not most of their income from investments. Investments are bought with after tax money. This is why a good argument can be made that investment income should not be taxed at all. Warren Buffet or anybody else still has some earned income and that income is taxed at the highest rate, much higher than his secretary unless she's making over 300K or so. His after tax investment income is taxed at the much lower cap gains or qualified dividend rates because he's already paid taxes on that money so investment income is really double taxed and that's what most people don't understand.

In my opinion the real problem is government overspending and waste, fraud and abuse.

Bob
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#131591 - 10/21/11 12:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: jazzmammal]
rharv Offline
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Quote:

If they're going to do that then the person should at least get their SS and Medicare tax money back don't you think? Otherwise it's just another political lie, the SS and Medicare money is in fact just more income tax.



No more so than paying health insurance and never needing a major procedure.. the money goes into the pool for those who need it. It was not meant to be a retirement savings plan, it was a social safety net, therefore more like insurance than tax.
just another point of view

I do agree though, without the waste and abuse there should be plenty of money in there.
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#131592 - 10/21/11 07:37 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: jazzmammal]
DennisD Offline
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A subject I have had great interest. I haven't listened to it as yet but I would like to offer some of my own understanding on this issues in point form. In the 1700's there was a European family called the Rothchilds. A father Baron von Rothchild who had 5 sons who were bankers. They were goldsmiths/moneylenders/moneychangers. They understood that monies (gold) they held, supposedly in trust, was never demanded a 100% back at the same time. This brought about the term fractional reserve banking. In his wisdom he sent a son to England, Italy, Spain, Austria, and Germany. Very wisely they named their banks, for example the Bank of England to give the people a false sense. By 1865 the country of England was in debt to the Bank of England or the Rothchilds. I believe the Rothchild's are probably owners of the Federal Reserve. JFK was trying to change the 1913 law when he was assassinated. Case in point if you think Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, google Sir Evelyn Rothchild IF YOU CAN STILL FIND IT, you will find he was worth $100Trillion in 2001! I believe there is something wrong in our system, and usually with any problem follow the money. Just my 2 cents worth. Dennis
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#131593 - 10/21/11 08:15 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: DennisD]
Muzic Trax Offline
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I watched a Charlie Rose (PBS) interview of a guy who runs a company that handles Teachers Pensions etc in the US. His company was named Water-something or other. He has made billions for his share holders while the other banks were getting TARPED out.

He didn't have any encouraging optimism about our money "machine," as he called it. The politics side of the equation hasn't even discussed what the "machine" is and how it functions, let alone a solution to solve the leveraging that is frozen.

He basically said that if they don't know how the machine works in the first place, how are they going to solve the problem? Scary coming from a guy who knows the beesknees.

Trax

Also: he said that we are heading toward a time when the jobs will not be done with laborers. He was afraid of the social impact of that. What will people do when they don't have to actually labor at their job anymore? He thinks there will be unrest here in the good ol US of A. That was an attention grabber of a statement.


Edited by Muzic Trax (10/21/11 08:22 PM)

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#131594 - 10/21/11 09:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: rharv]
jazzmammal Offline
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Quote:

No more so than paying health insurance and never needing a major procedure.. the money goes into the pool for those who need it. It was not meant to be a retirement savings plan, it was a social safety net, therefore more like insurance than tax.




SS has been a defined benefit retirement plan for over 30 years now, nothing to do with insurance. True it wasn't originally designed that way but that is ancient history. Defined benefit is what all the protesting was about in Wisconsin earlier this year by all the public employee unions. That means they promise you by law that you will receive a set amount each month once you retire according to a simple formula. Anyone over 50 gets those SS benefit statements every year and while they're not accurate to the last dollar, they are pretty close projections as to what you will receive. Contrast that to what most people have now, a defined contribution 401K plan. That means your employer guarantees they will match either 100% or a percentage of what you decide to put into their retirement plan each year. No guarantees as to what the eventual monthly payout will be, that is decided by the market the funds are invested in. Defined benefit plans are a recipe for disaster as we're seeing now because when people retire at a time when the plans have lost 20-30% or more due to the economy there's not enough cash in the system to pay all the current retirees.

For the most part the only defined benefit retirement plans left are for government employees, including Congress and Social Security. I hate to say it because it's really gonna suck eventually but we just can't afford those types of plans any more which is why very few large private employers still have them.

Bob
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#131595 - 10/22/11 08:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: jazzmammal]
Pat Marr Offline
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there's an old hypothetical question that tends to show up in college level "ethics" classes:

Imagine you are at the switch of a railroad track, able to divert an oncoming train in one of two directions. The train is out of control and can't be stopped. Both sections of track run through congested areas with pedestrians on the track. No matter which direction you divert the train, people will die. However, the number of deaths is smaller in one direction than the other. What do you do? Most people opt to accept the smaller disaster in order to avoid the large one.


Social security is a train running out of control, and people are definitely going to get hurt. In my opinion the Terry Schiavo case set the stage for solving the social security mess. The court ruled that institutions get to decide when quality of life is diminished sufficiently to terminate life.


The next step will be a cleverly named "Compassionate Conclusions" or "Death with Dignity" law that makes assisted suicide and mercy killing not only legal but socially encouraged as being "the right thing to do"


That way the people who are left will be spared the oncoming train, and the huge wave of boomers who are about to suck up all the money in retirement benefits can be quietly disposed of. And the people doing it will feel GOOD about it!

Problem solved.

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#131596 - 10/22/11 11:06 AM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: Pat Marr]
Mick Emery Offline
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My FaceBook post...
Quote:

A little over a hundred years ago, politicians decided that the Constitution was too confining for them. They knew better than the founding fathers what was best for us. They created a government that used the Constitution, when convenient, and ignored it when they thought they knew better. Today, we are witnessing the fruits of their labors. How's that workin' out America?




Part of what they "knew better" was the giving of our country to the Federal Reserve"
Quote:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world - no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." --President Woodrow Wilson (The president whose administration passed the Federal Reserve Act)


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#131597 - 10/22/11 01:24 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: Mick Emery]
rharv Offline
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Posts: 18802
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Interesting stuff. I understand the purpose of SS got changed along the way, but if we can't afford it, as Pat mentioned, hard choices will follow.I know people who truly need their SS check each month, and others using it to buy a new 'vette (since it is just extra money coming in). If it is coming down to running out of SS money, maybe it needs to be changed again. That's all I was getting at. Those who will scream if we change it now will only be replaced by those who scream when it's forced later and I think a better need would be met if it was 'adjusted' a bit based on need, assuming it will run out. Believe me, I understand they paid in and feel entitled to get it back, as I hopefully will some day too (I get those 'estimated statements' you mentioned).. but if it needs to change in order to sustain it, let's not wait until it's too late. I have never looked at the numbers myself to see IF it is sustainable currently.
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#131598 - 10/22/11 05:09 PM [Off-Topic] Re: A Tightly Knit Network of Companies Runs the World Economy, Says Network Analysis [Re: rharv]
Mick Emery Offline
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I've seen a documentary, (forget by who) that shows a warehouse probably twice the size of a football field, filled with rows & rows of filing cabinets. The ONLY thing in these cabinets are IOU's from congress to the SS fund. They have spent every dime of the fund on their pet projects.
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