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G'day Don,
thanks for the update. A friend of mine recently (12 months ago) build a "riverboat". Honda generator driving some things directly as well as 2*smart battery chargers connected to several 120 AH 12V deep cycle marine batteries in parallel, in turn driving an inverter.
The boat has a microwave oven (direct to the genny), refrigerator, TV, home theatre (including projector) plus other bits - works well. Based on the experience gained when researching and using this installation it is partly where my suggestions are coming from.
If you ran the bed from the inverter, powered by the battery(ies), while permanently connected to the charger then in the event of a power outage the inverter will keep things running. This setup would be less efficient than running directly from the mains but I believe your needs would justify the extra expense easily.
You need deep cycle batteries because car type batteries are not designed to be run nearly or completely flat before being recharged, nor do they cope with constant trickle charge as well. This solution has the potential to be a bit costly but would, I think, be the most reliable and have a relatively extended "on battery" time.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Since it is a medical device -- and also since Don has informed me that the Veteran's Administration just may be cajoled into paying for this piece of equipment, I've decided to dig into this a bit deeper, let's see if there isn't a recommended and standardized "medically approved " $$$ version available.
Going to contact that company directly today and have an engineer's chat, Don.
--Mac
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Don,
If both you and your wife are disabled physically - is there someone who comes by to check on you on a daily basis? If so, I'm wondering if they can't be setup to check the diesel level in a whole-house generator?
Your bed manufacturer probably designed the device to be used in installations where there is backup power.
I'm not a lawyer, but to hear that this was installed in a location where there isn't an alternate source of AC power leads me to believe that someone (not you) didn't do their proper homework in spec'ing out the bed for home use. I can smell a lawsuit against the VA here if that's who spec'ed the bed for use at your home.
I'm glad Mac is taking up the discussion for your sake. I can completely understand your fear of entrapment.
And, thanks for whatever it is that you did for us in our Armed Services!
-Scott
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John - I know we're quite a bit south of you here in Clarkston, MI - but we pretty much had our first sight of what used to be grassy lawn this week.
We've had a winter that reminds me of the 1970's here in Michigan. More snow this year without a break in the temps than I can recall in the past 2 decades. Seems like the good old days when you could count on sledding and skiing from December to February at least.
The drive-way just thawed out from it's last vestiges of ice this week. Normally, I like to keep it clean all the way down to the concrete - but I simply couldn't keep up this year - even with the help of a strapping 14 year old.
-Scott
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Okay, Don, just got off of the phone with the mfr of your bed, talked to a young lady in the technical dept.
While they do indeed make hospital model beds with UPS inside them, those will only run for about a half hour because hospitals typically have generator backup systems. Sounds to me like they simply installed a rather standard UPS of small size into the thing.
She did reveal that your model bed draws 200W Max.
That's good info and shows the difference between assumptions about power draw because of fuse size and true power draw.
She also told me that while the motor for the pump does run intermittantly, the tubes it fills in the mattress have holes in them that allow continuous air escape, so the motor comes on quite often.
Still, 200W is a lot better than 600VA as a spec figure.
Next question from me would be, "How LONG would you expect this thing to be able to power the bed on a full charge?"
--Mac
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G'day Mac,
200W - good info - depending on power factor considerations I would expect that probably means around 220 to 250 VA - still a lot better than 600 or even 420 VA
Given the motor is intermittent then the UPS or equivalent would need to be dimensioned large enough to cope with the start current (you really said that earlier) so 600 VA is probably a very good starting point. As you asked Don, the really important parameter now is length of outage. Sadly it is a little hard to truly predict these.
Can't help wondering if a UPS combined with an (automatic?) electric start generator and appropriate changeover gear might not be best. Especially as Don's wife is also coping with a disability.
I vaguely remember some massive power outages the US suffered some years ago that lasted several weeks in some areas IIRC. While I hope this never happens again I do think Don should be able to be independant for long enough for aid to come in the event of an extended outage. Bearing in mind that an extended outage will also place a high demand on available generators Don would be well advised to be prepared and have his own I think.
A friend of mine has a 5kVA generator for his home dialysis machine - saved his life at least once now because of power outages and hospital overload. The difference here is that other than his kidneys he is physically able and can thus look after the genny on his own.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Well, wind power would be the ultimate battery charger.
Especially considering Don's location.
Solar Cell technology can't hold a candle to wind power, very literally.
The cube factor is the reason.
With wind power, a 5mph wind generates the cube of that speed in power. 5X5X5
But when the wind jumps up to 15mph, well. 15X15X15
Once put a windmill on an Amateur Radio repeater site along with deep cycle lead acid batteries, the site runs 24/7 with repeaters simulcasting on 2 meters, 70 cm, 6 meters and 10 meters, also the power budget must include a Repeater Controller computer, remote bases, one frequency agile remote base, a Hall Voter for the three remote receivers, plus we added half of a 220 repeater. The thing is completely off the grid. One small windmill up there by the antennas does it all.
But as usual I digress.
Maybe not, the wind powered charger system would indeed be perhaps the "ultimate" situation for Don. But I doubt we could get the Veteran's Administration to pay for that, which is one of the design stipulations at this point.
Wish I lived closer to Don, heh. Fix him right up, not only would his bed continue to operate 24/7 when I got done, so would some semblance of HVAC, the fridge, the TV, the computers and some lighting. Shoot, let's just take him off the grid completely.
--Mac
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Quote:
Shoot, let's just take him off the grid completely.
Sounds like a fun project - bit hard from here in Oz though 
Quote:
But I doubt we could get the Veteran's Administration to pay for that, which is one of the design stipulations at this point.
Might be worth an inquiry though, especially if there was a reasonable design to go with it...
I hadn't cfonsidered a wind generator as I don't know that much about the geography of the US, though the thread title (tornado et al) does suggest the availability of lots of air rushing about. Probably should'a been able to connect the dots on that...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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i am hoping to get 24 hours. is that realistic? i am on a medical priority list but that won't mean much in a real emergency.
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Yes, I think 24 hours may indeed be a realistic figure.
I'm on the case...
--Mac
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thanks, mac, at least it is giving me hope. btw, its not the va but the dav (disabled american vets) who will pay for it. i guess we should determine what certs are needed.
lawrie, fyi, when one drives through kansas, our neighbor to the north, you will see a literal wall of wind turbines. a molecule of air would have a rough time getting through kansas without hitting a turbine blade, lol. i was surprised to see how slow they turn,
scott, thanks for your input and encouraging words.
don
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Hmm, 24 hours with a running load of, say 300VA (allow for power factor, other electronics that may not be in the 200W previously mentioned, losses in the inverter and maybe a little bit of fudge factor) at 12 volts is 600 AmpHours. Add "engineers constant"... say 750 Amp Hours. Or, it might be better to look at 24V batteries; charger and inverter - takes it back to, say, 375 Amp Hours. Quite doable I'd think and as its a DVA affair it shouldn't be out of reach expense wise either. I do like the idea of a wind generator. Looking at a map I'd guess prevailing wind direction would be S to SW, with the occasional SouEaster? It'd be nice to see them molecules hit your generator before they ever reach Kansas  Mac, keep us posted would ya? I'd like to see what you ultimately come up with.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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i see 'pure sine wave' inverters mentioned. is that a design consideration on inductive loads? on other 'less pure' waveforms, will the motor overheat?
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Quote:
i see 'pure sine wave' inverters mentioned. is that a design consideration on inductive loads? on other 'less pure' waveforms, will the motor overheat?
Pure sine wave is always better, but if the inverter output is not "pure" it depends on how far out and which way as to whether there may be problems. E.G if the output is closer to a square wave then there may be heating problems, if it is closer to a saw tooth there may be efficiency problems (and as a result, probably heating problems too).
Given this is a medical aid, I would ONLY consider pure sine wave stuff. Depending on the motor design it may not be an issue, but it's your health and well being we're talking about. Long term, the cheapest thing you can do is to acquire the best that can be afforded. That means get the pure sine wave inverter.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Since the motor(s) would represent an AC inductive load most likely (there is a chance that the thing uses DC motors powered internally by rectified/regulated circuits, but they wouldn't tell me about that) then I'd go with at least "near sine wave" output.
"Pure Sine Wave" is an advertising term anyway, as far as I know there hasn't been anyone able to create a perfect sine wave electrically speaking. But we've gotten a lot closer. Put it this way -- rounded corners on the waveform mean less inherent troubles in other places.
I doubt if there would be much difference in using one of the "pure sine wave" units over a "buzzbox" in operation, other than the buzzbox would have the capability of generating more possible interference to other devices such as radios, tvs or the like. Of course we want to avoid that if possible.
I sure would love the chance to take the cover off of Don's bed control and take a peak at what they are really doin' inside there, but without that ability, the only other option is to design for any possibility. Or as my old Civil Engineering friend used to say, "If in doubt, build it stout!" He is a Scotsman, BTW.
--Mac
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<Pedant hat on> You get pure sine wave from a rotating alternator. </pedant hat> Electronically speaking, a la inverter, I agree that you can only approximate - but the better ones are pretty good... Of course, this is really academic, you have to use what's available or what you can build. I would expect the mattress' electronic control systems to be running from a switch mode supply, which won't care, and the inductive load of the motor won't really be that fussy either, but I'd still like to see the best wave form affordable from the inverter. I mean, why ask for problems? <assumptions on> If they've gone to the trouble to design and build an inverter well enough to claim "pure sine wave" then one should reasonably be able to expect good (better?) component and build quality... I hope... </assumptions>
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
I would expect the mattress' electronic control systems to be running from a switch mode supply, which won't care, and the inductive load of the motor won't really be that fussy either, but I'd still like to see the best wave form affordable from the inverter. I mean, why ask for problems?
Experience leads me to never assume what's inside a box and that goes double for boxes with "medical" on the outside.
It could be anything at all in there -- and sometimes is dictated by those overkill "medical" electrical regulations, many of which are likely stateside lawmaker meddling or the lobbyists, er, the Underwriter's Lab people.
Damn thing might even have a monkey turnin' a crank in there and the electricity is only used to clean the cage...
--Mac
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Damn thing might even have a monkey turnin' a crank in there and the electricity is only used to clean the cage...
Hey! That could be why the blowers intermittent - monkey needs a breather every so often!
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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