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#143328 - 12/26/11 08:54 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing
jazzwombat Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
I'm having a problem with changes in melody playback when using an all midi vs. all realtrack backing track. Here's a link to hear the problem: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1111184. The first 12 bars used the "Cool_One - Slow Sw. Jazz guitar" midi backing, while the second 12 use _J085_GB "Cool Jazz Ballad" backing track. The melody is a simple triplet, triplet, 8th, 8th, rest.

Why am I having the problem and, more important, how do I get rid of it?

Equipment: Core I5 with 16gb RAM,M-audio fast track ultra with Ketron SD2, if that matters.

Thanks for the help,

Bob aka jazzwombat


PS: "midi v rt problem" mp3 on soundclick. Listen for the "hesitation" or lack of uniformity of the triplets when the RT backing (second set) is used.


Edited by jazzwombat (12/26/11 10:58 AM)
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Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143329 - 12/26/11 12:24 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13319
Loc: Australia
Bob,

Is the melody a midi melody or a live playing? Also, do you have the song set-up so that when the style changes it changes automatically for the second 12 bars?

If you have a style change from Midi to Realtracks, BIAB needs to generate the Realtracks and doing this requires a hefty amount of the computer's processor if "Fast generation of Realtracks" is enabled. The reason for this is that BIAB will commence playing before the Realtracks are fully generated and the completion of generation occurs as a background process. Now, if you throw into that mix the fact that you are also asking your computer to record audio, there's a lot being expected and the computer will share the processor between events. By comparison, generating a Midi-only accompaniment is fast and efficient and does not use too much computer power.

As an experiment, try deactivating the fast generation of Realtracks under "Opt | Preferences | Realtracks" and see if that makes a difference. With this turned off, the song will not commence until all Realtracks are complete so it will take longer to start up. The upside is, though, that if you are recording, pretty much all processing power can be devoted to that.

Hope these thoughts help,
Noel


Edited by Noel96 (12/26/11 12:57 PM)
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#143330 - 12/26/11 12:26 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: Noel96]
jazzwombat Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Hi Noel:

It's directly from BIAB-generated notes on the melody track.

Bob
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143331 - 12/26/11 12:40 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13319
Loc: Australia
Hi Bob,

Please see my above post. I've edited it with extra information. (Just to keep everything in one place.)

Seeing you are using an external synth, it seems to me that you are recording audio at the same time that Realtracks are being generated.

As mentioned above, try deactivating the fast generation of Realtracks. Another thing you could try is to use the internal synth and see if the problem persists with that.

Regards,
Noel
_________________________
LINKS TO MY BIAB/RB SONGS


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#143332 - 12/26/11 12:45 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7217
How did you get the melody?
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#143333 - 12/26/11 12:45 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: Noel96]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Thanks Noel. Certainly worth a try, although the strange hesitation when RT backing is used is evident even if I am not recording, as you noted. I'll also try the "return to factory default", after saving my current preferences. I'm at my office right now, so I'll make the changes and report back later tonite.
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143334 - 12/26/11 12:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: silvertones]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Quote:

How did you get the melody?




I keyed in the notes in the notation window for the first bar, and then copied to the next 11 with a 5 semitone increase (to go around the circle of 4ths). The notes look fine on the notation, leadsheet and in the piano roll windows.

Bob
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143335 - 12/26/11 12:49 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5509
Loc: Chicago
I like the first version better. Oh, that's not what you are asking?

Yes, it does sound like the melodist has been drinking a bit the second time around. Can you send us the actual BIAB files so we can see if the issue in your system?
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#143336 - 12/26/11 12:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: MusicStudent]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Quote:

I like the first version better. Oh, that's not what you are asking?

Yes, it does sound like the melodist has been drinking a bit the second time around. Can you send us the actual BIAB files so we can see if the issue in your system?





I'd be happy to do so, but how do I get the files to this forum? There doesn't seem to be an attachment option.

Bob
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143337 - 12/26/11 12:56 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7217
Try freezing the melody track.
_________________________
John
ESI Gigaport HD+
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"The only Band is a Real Band"
www.Wintertexaninfo.com/Bands/JohnnyD.php

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#143338 - 12/26/11 06:42 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: silvertones]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5509
Loc: Chicago
Here is Bob's (aka jazzwombat) file causing the weird effects .. when he uses a RT backing track, but not when using a midi backing.

I'll take a look at it a little later, in the meantime, perhaps someone can see this they can reproduce the problem.

Jeff's lick.MGU
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#143339 - 12/26/11 07:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: MusicStudent]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Thanks jazzmandan! I tried freezing melody (and other instruments) without change. I restored to factory settings and that didn't seem to make any difference. I changed the realtracks options to favor a slower machine (I've got a relatively fast one) without change. I doublechecked my midi settings, and they seem to be right for my fasttrack and m-audio asio drivers. I'm left thinking it must be something with the file itself. I've played several songs that are demos of the various styles, changing from realtracks to midi styles, and couldn't replicate the problem. So, if someone has a minute to check out the file at jazzmandan's site, please let me know if you see something I've done wrong.

Thanks,

Bob
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143340 - 12/26/11 07:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13319
Loc: Australia
Bob,

The file plays fine for me using the _J085_GB.STY (Cool Jazz Ballad (85 RS))style. I'm using a VSt/DXi internal synth.

Are you using multiple choruses with this file and having the style change each time through?

Regards,
Noel
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#143341 - 12/26/11 08:36 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: Noel96]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Quote:

Bob,

The file plays fine for me using the _J085_GB.STY (Cool Jazz Ballad (85 RS))style. I'm using a VSt/DXi internal synth.

Are you using multiple choruses with this file and having the style change each time through?

Regards,
Noel




Hi Noel,

No. What you heard on my soundclick file was two separate recordings that I merged in Audacity. The first was using the midi style for one chorus of 12 bars, and the second was the RT (_J085_GB; Cool Jazz Ballad) style for one chorus of 12 bars.

So, does this suggest I have something set incorrectly in the midi preferences in BIAB or something needs to be change to the M-audio driver settings, or what? I checked the midi settings in BIAB and they look fine, but how would I know? Any suggestions for where to begin are appreciated. Thanks.

Bob
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143342 - 12/26/11 09:43 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: Noel96]
MusicStudent Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5509
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

Bob,

The file plays fine for me using the _J085_GB.STY (Cool Jazz Ballad (85 RS))style. I'm using a VSt/DXi internal synth.





Same findings here. The midi melody playes right on beat as expected with this RT Style. Not at all like I heard in the recoding you provided earlier in this thread. BTW, I am using heh Coyote Forte Dxi synth.
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BIAB2018
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#143343 - 12/26/11 10:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: MusicStudent]
Noel96 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13319
Loc: Australia
Bob,

Route Melody through the Coyote WT VST/DXi and see if the problem persists. This will allow us to identify where the problem might be occurring.

Regards,
Noel
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#143344 - 12/27/11 08:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: Noel96]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Hi Noel,

I routed thru Coyote Forte DXi and used the M-Audio ASIO driver that I used previously. If anything, I believe the problem got worse. I posted the mp3 on my soundclick page: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1111184.

What strikes me as odd is the randomness of the "triplet mistake". I swear I've listened to the RT of these 12 bars 4 or 5 dozen times, and the error in the melody never truly repeated itself. I've listened to a couple of other melodies, particularly ones I didn't enter myself ("Lady Bird" was one). Believe it or not, I can't hear problems with them, although they don't tend to have the bar-to-bar repetition that is in my file, so this may not be a fair comparison.

There are a couple of things I could try. For example, I could change to the ASIO4ALL driver -- bypassing both the FastTrack and Ketron -- and see what happens. Alternatively, I could reset to "ALL" factory default settings; previously I reset to "MOST" default setting, and that didn't seem to correct the problem. What else might I try? I'm at my wit's end.

Thanks for the help everyone. I appreciate your efforts.

Bob aka jazzwombat
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143345 - 12/27/11 07:47 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Interesting update:

I made separate files of the RT and midi 12-bar chart, and then listened to them in RealBand. First, both played flawlessly. Second, in each case the melody track was approximately 18 bars long and contained notes stretching beyond the 12 bar ending. I have no idea where these came from, but they are there in RB. Deleting them in RB made no difference: in each case, the triplets were replicated correctly.

Someone, please explain what the heck is going on here? I will copy and paste the 12 bars to a new file and see if that cures the problem, whatever it is.

Bob
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143346 - 12/27/11 08:17 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
jazzwombat Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 457
Loc: Balmer, Merlan, USA
Copy and pasting did not cure the problem. So, as it stands, both midi and RealTrack files play correctly in RealBand, but triplets are not rendered properly when RealTracks backing is used in BIAB. ????
_________________________
Soundclick: www.soundclick.com/BobBelas


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#143347 - 12/27/11 08:18 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Difference in melody playback between midi and realtrack backing [Re: jazzwombat]
Blake Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 371
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Hi jazzwombat,

If this is possible with the Fast Track, you should try switching from ASIO to MME audio drivers in Band-in-a-Box. Just see if that changes anything.

If that is not possible, find out what the ASIO driver's buffer size is (should be able to see this in the ASIO control panel).
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PG Music Inc.

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