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#149122 - 02/01/12 01:49 PM [Off-Topic] BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi...
pwarren Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
I recently made a post on how to emulate the Jimi Hendrix sound for midi based guitars. I was asked to provide a link to a sound sample which I'll relink here . Please feel free to check it out. It's only a short sample so as not to infringe any copyright (fair use).

Ryzard commented that the sound sample showed midi is anything but dead or irrelevant even with the advent of RTs. I hearily agree. The ability to apply VST and DXi plugins to each track in BiaB has revolutionized midi and it's use in originals and even more so in covers.

What do you guys and gals think? If you thought midi was of no use would this change your minds?
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#149123 - 02/01/12 09:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: pwarren]
PRearden Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 163
Loc: <----- behind here
never thought MIDI was of no use. It's great for lighting and triggering pyrotechnics. Many act use synth access axes in the studio and it is used on virtually all boards for live sound too.

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#149124 - 02/01/12 10:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: PRearden]
Muzic Trax Offline
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Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 4919
Loc: California
If a midi patch sounded as good as a Real Track, there wouldn't be a need for RT's, IMO. My old Tyros keyboard used patches called "Mega Voices," which had to convert regular patches to them. They were the Cat's Meow and sounded as good as a RT. You couldn't record with them though, they worked after conversion.

The Biab Midi Styles are fantastic. If you have a hardware synth to use with them, Biab sounds like a whole different program compared to the standard Forte/VSC. I actually prefer the Biab Midi Styles over the RT ones, but since I don't have my Tyros anymore, I prefer the RT's now because of the sound.

There is a night and day difference when using a synth that sounds and emulates a real instrument, compared to the standard GM palette. Plus, midi data allows much more control when creating a song with a Biab Style.

Trax

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#149125 - 02/02/12 02:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: PRearden]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3899
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:

never thought MIDI was of no use. It's great for lighting and triggering pyrotechnics. Many act use synth access axes in the studio and it is used on virtually all boards for live sound too.




Of course, we meant musically useful, but I had forgotten about other applications. I think another language/protocol has been developed for lighting though due to the occasional latency with MIDI and the need for ultrafast response from lasers and multiple other high-speed lighting instruments.

Note that, even though Synth Access instruments are labeled as MIDI, they aren't, repeat are not. They may indirectly produce MIDI output through a converter such as the new Roland VG-99, but all that is generated from the pickup is trigger, pitch, and dynamics--no MIDI data whatsoever. I bought my VG-88 thinking that I had pitch-to-MIDI capability, but the MIDI ports on the unit are for control only.

I've been out of live sound for so long I have never used MIDI there. Do you mean for control of effects or other automation? Please say more.

Signed,

Interested
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"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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#149126 - 02/02/12 05:17 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Ryszard]
filkertom Offline
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Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 2028
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I do not know why people think MIDI is of no use. It's different. MIDI instruments often do not have the articulation that "real" instruments have, but I use both all the time, and often combine MIDI and RT both generated by the same song in BIAB. MIDI can be used to control other instruments, and it's of course possible to completely change the tone of a piece instantly merely by changing the patch.

Re: your sample -- sounds good 'n' Hendrixy to me. I'll go back and look at your original post.
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#149127 - 02/02/12 08:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: pwarren]
Tim Lawrence Offline
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Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 348
Loc: Long Beach California. United ...
Back in the late 90's I was using a JV80 as my main external sound module.
Back then I really never thought that the pros were using midi in their completed productions till I started hearing the JV-80 being used in quite a few TV commercials and a soap my wife and I were watching.
That gave me a new respect for midi and how it could be used for other then just a hobby.
Even some 12 years back the sound quality of the higher end external midi equipment was amazing.
I use a Tyros 1 these days, but still have the JV-80 that I use for certain sounds.
Realtracks are great, but just don't have the versatility of midi yet.
Like others on here I use both midi and realtracks in my songs.

Tim



\

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#149128 - 02/02/12 08:42 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Tim Lawrence]
ROG Offline
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Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 2509
Loc: York, England
Sometimes when you're writing sound to picture, you can be working on a midi keyboard and composing without reference to either time signature or key signature and without being sure what the final sound is going to be. Having midi data to play around with in this situation is great and I can't think of another way it could be done which would be anywhere near as good. Long live midi!

ROG.

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#149129 - 02/02/12 09:24 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: ROG]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4349
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
PWarren - I enjoyed the clip. Definitely Hendrix-ish.

As many people here know, I'm a big MIDI fan.

MIDI only sounds as good as
  • The MIDI sound module and/or particular voice you are using (as we all know, MIDI has no sound, but synthesizers do)
  • The skill of the player or programmer who creates the MIDI file (or style)

Chart topping CD's and entire motion picture soundtracks have been produced with MIDI synthesizers. Virtually every modern synth has MIDI as it's core. I've even seen MIDI based synthesizers in international touring symphony orchestras.

MIDI is far from dead. It is alive in virtually every professional recording studio in the country. It is in movies, on stages, and in small lounges everywhere.

At this moment in the evolution of music, MIDI still offers thousands of times more editing power than pre-recorded loops do. Listen to This Clip or This One keeping in mind (1) they were recorded in a live gig using an old Archos Juke Box through its internal microphone and (2) ripped at 56k so the sound quality isn't nearly as good as it is live. But even with the lowered sonic quality, they still sound like sax and guitar solos. Other than the bit of vocals, they are 100% MIDI, and the solos are 100% my notes, not someone else's.

I posted the guitar solo on a Guitar Player's forum as an example of my playing. I got dozens of comments on how well I played guitar, one even told me it was "Jeff Beck-ish" (to me the ultimate compliment). After a few pages of 100% positive comments, I confessed I was really playing wind synthesizer. Pages of comments followed telling me how real it sounded, and only one person said in retrospect there was something about the vibrato that sounded a little funny to him. It doesn't get any more real than that!

The lead instruments (synth sax/synth guitar) are my improvisations playing a wind MIDI controller through a Yamaha VL70m MIDI tone module and over the chord progressions to copyrighted songs. The backgrounds are edited BiaB MIDI files (the sax clip uses a PG style the guitar clip uses one of mine). Since you cannot copyright a chord progression, and since the improvised melody is my own creation, I am not violating anybody else's copyrights. If there is a small fragment of the original song as the lead-in or exit of the solo, it is short enough to be considered OK under the fair use laws.

These solos would have been impossible using loops.

MIDI isn't dead, in fact, it hasn't even reached its full potential yet.

When I want to listen to someone else's music, I put a CD in the player. When I want to play music I prefer to play my own notes, not someone else's. For that I use my MIDI synths/controllers/tools, sax, guitar, and/or flute.

Insights and incites by Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (02/02/12 09:35 AM)
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#149130 - 02/02/12 09:37 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Notes Norton]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
I am so tired of the issue. I use midi. I have some Norton stuff. But the posting just to justify the clip slinging of a few weeks ago, and to drag up the free advertising ad(vertising) nausum, is getting to me.

I think himself has been too generous. It's his sandbox. The constant questioning and re-hasing of this tired horse is starting to smell.

All this has just been said. I feel like I'm in kindergarten.
_________________________
John Conley
Musica est vita

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#149131 - 02/02/12 12:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: PRearden]
pwarren Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

never thought MIDI was of no use. It's great for lighting and triggering pyrotechnics. Many act use synth access axes in the studio and it is used on virtually all boards for live sound too.




I don't think anyone ever said midi was of no use, even in the numerous discussions of midi vs RTs. The main comments have been that midi sounds too artificial compared to RTs. Others have responded to that by insisting midi blended with RTs sounds good. There were even a number of comparisons posted by Peter Gannon in one thread to which there were comments both pro and con.

The point I'm trying to make is that with soundfonts and VST FX, not to mention various editing techniques, you can get a midi track to sound good enough that many, maybe most, people wouldn't realize they were listening to midi especially when mixed with RDs and RTs.

Your point about other uses for midi is a good one that I hadn't considered. That alone would seem to make midi a continued necessity.
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#149132 - 02/02/12 12:34 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: John Conley]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3899
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:

All this has just been said. I feel like I'm in kindergarten.




There, there, John. It's nap time. Right after cookies and warm milk.
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#149133 - 02/02/12 12:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Muzic Trax]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

If a midi patch sounded as good as a Real Track, there wouldn't be a need for RT's, IMO.




'As good as' is very subjective. I only claim midi can be made to sound quite realistic and, when combined with RDs and RTs, can be good enough for covers. And that's something I didn't find possible with BiaB before the 2012 version.

Quote:

The Biab Midi Styles are fantastic. If you have a hardware synth to use with them, Biab sounds like a whole different program compared to the standard Forte/VSC. I actually prefer the Biab Midi Styles over the RT ones, but since I don't have my Tyros anymore, I prefer the RT's now because of the sound.

There is a night and day difference when using a synth that sounds and emulates a real instrument, compared to the standard GM palette. Plus, midi data allows much more control when creating a song with a Biab Style.

Trax




I basically agree with all this. You need to use the appropriate synth and patch or soundfont for the job. Some work better than others for a particular job.

For guitars in particular I was never able to get a convincing result before using soundfonts combined with plugin FX. Now I can create what I consider really good covers of songs that used to be impossible.
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#149134 - 02/02/12 12:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: filkertom]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

I do not know why people think MIDI is of no use.




I certainly don't think so either. However, I was never able to get a convincing guitar sound from midi in the past. Even with the Ketron, guitars always sounded like a weak facsimile of the real thing. This no matter what controllers had been used. Now I find you can have midi guitars that rival the RTs if they are used appropriately.

Quote:

...MIDI instruments often do not have the articulation that "real" instruments have...




I agree, and that continues even with the ability to use soundfonts and plugin FX. But I think we are much closer than before. I respectfully submit that if a good guitarist played a midi guitar with all the controller events for bends and expression and that midi was then treated as I did in the clip you would be able to fool most people. And to me that is a new pinnacle in midi based music.

Quote:

Re: your sample -- sounds good 'n' Hendrixy to me. I'll go back and look at your original post.




While I didn't emphasise it in the original post one point I was trying to pass on is how good the Camel Crusher distortion and Juicy77 amp were. I like amplitube and have been able to get some good sounds with it, especially 'clean' guitars. But the Juicy77 amp blows Amplitube out of the water for overdriven lead.
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#149135 - 02/02/12 01:03 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Tim Lawrence]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

Back in the late 90's I was using a JV80 as my main external sound module.
Back then I really never thought that the pros were using midi in their completed productions till I started hearing the JV-80 being used in quite a few TV commercials and a soap my wife and I were watching.
That gave me a new respect for midi and how it could be used for other then just a hobby.
Even some 12 years back the sound quality of the higher end external midi equipment was amazing.
I use a Tyros 1 these days, but still have the JV-80 that I use for certain sounds.
Realtracks are great, but just don't have the versatility of midi yet.
Like others on here I use both midi and realtracks in my songs.

Tim



\




I think the majority of posters agree with you. I certainly do. The few who don't are entitled to their opinions. I just wanted to offer some ideas that might make midi more useful to those who didn't like it.
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#149136 - 02/02/12 01:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Notes Norton]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

PWarren - I enjoyed the clip. Definitely Hendrix-ish.




Thanks Notes. Hendrix would have been the last guitarist who I thought could be emulated resonably well using midi. I was very surprised that it worked.

Quote:

As many people here know, I'm a big MIDI fan.




I wouldn't have guessed...

Quote:

Listen to This Clip or This One




I would not have known that was midi myself, although I'm no expert. Another convincing argument that midi can rival RTs directly and, by extension, works really well combined with RDs and RTs. Thanks for the clips.
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#149137 - 02/02/12 01:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: John Conley]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

I am so tired of the issue. I use midi. I have some Norton stuff. But the posting just to justify the clip slinging of a few weeks ago, and to drag up the free advertising ad(vertising) nausum, is getting to me.

I think himself has been too generous. It's his sandbox. The constant questioning and re-hasing of this tired horse is starting to smell.

All this has just been said. I feel like I'm in kindergarten.




I'm not sure I follow this John. However, I'm not trying to rehash anything. I was trying to offer a way of making midi guitars sound better and stimulate discussion on that subject.
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#149138 - 02/02/12 03:37 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: John Conley]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
John,

Quote:

I am so tired of the issue. I use midi. I have some Norton stuff. But the posting just to justify the clip slinging of a few weeks ago, and to drag up the free advertising ad(vertising) nausum, is getting to me.

I think himself has been too generous. It's his sandbox. The constant questioning and re-hasing of this tired horse is starting to smell.

All this has just been said. I feel like I'm in kindergarten.




I think you're being more than a little cranky and unjustified in your comments to Bob.

Since the topic is MIDI and BIAB, who's better qualified than Bob to comment on it? Especially since he makes his living playing live music while using BIAB and MIDI as a backup band.

Add to that the fact that he's created thousands of arrangements using BIAB and MIDI and created numerous styles, and then we have an inescapable conclusion. "Notes" is more qualified to talk about the subject than any of us. He also freely shares his knowledge with those of us on the forum.

For the record, I don't have any of "Notes" stuff, but it's only because I can't afford it right now. Bob is a valued member of the forum and he shouldn't be discouraged from sharing what he knows about BIAB and MIDI just because you're tired of reading it.

Here's a tip just for you...... Don't read it.

I feel safe in saying that most of the rest of us would like to read what "Notes" has to say.
_________________________
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................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#149139 - 02/02/12 05:49 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Tommyc Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/08/11
Posts: 2606
I don't hate MIDI ,but the examples I listened to don't sound like real instruments at all. Maybe if you are drunk in a bar it would be OK. I sent the links to a Real Studio and he said you must be kidding if you think it sounded like real instruments. But to each his own said the old lady kissing the cows behind. So I bow out of any more threads discussing the merits of MIDI or lack there of. Thanks to all that brought out the examples it has confirmed my thoughts of MIDI and since I have no products to spam to PG costumers as some do I hope you are happy with the sound of your music. I will still listen to your examples and just chuckle to myself.

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#149140 - 02/02/12 06:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Tommyc]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

I don't hate MIDI ,but the examples I listened to don't sound like real instruments at all. Maybe if you are drunk in a bar it would be OK. I sent the links to a Real Studio and he said you must be kidding if you think it sounded like real instruments. But to each his own said the old lady kissing the cows behind. So I bow out of any more threads discussing the merits of MIDI or lack there of. Thanks to all that brought out the examples it has confirmed my thoughts of MIDI and since I have no products to spam to PG costumers as some do I hope you are happy with the sound of your music. I will still listen to your examples and just chuckle to myself.




Did you listen to the Hendrix style clip I posted? It's in the first post of the thread. If you did you still don't think that sounds good?


Edited by pwarren (02/02/12 06:33 PM)
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#149141 - 02/03/12 07:33 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: pwarren]
Tommyc Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/08/11
Posts: 2606
Yes I listened to all the links on this page ,it did not sound like a real guitar. It didn't sound awful just not like a real guitar,it was better than the Sax though. Over the years I have played guitars that were MIDI controllers they all sounded better as a piano than a guitar. If PG didn't think the same they would have stayed a MIDI only program,don't you think they changed for the better?

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