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#149122 - 02/01/12 01:49 PM [Off-Topic] BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi...
pwarren Offline
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Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
I recently made a post on how to emulate the Jimi Hendrix sound for midi based guitars. I was asked to provide a link to a sound sample which I'll relink here . Please feel free to check it out. It's only a short sample so as not to infringe any copyright (fair use).

Ryzard commented that the sound sample showed midi is anything but dead or irrelevant even with the advent of RTs. I hearily agree. The ability to apply VST and DXi plugins to each track in BiaB has revolutionized midi and it's use in originals and even more so in covers.

What do you guys and gals think? If you thought midi was of no use would this change your minds?
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#149123 - 02/01/12 09:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: pwarren]
PRearden Offline
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Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 163
Loc: <----- behind here
never thought MIDI was of no use. It's great for lighting and triggering pyrotechnics. Many act use synth access axes in the studio and it is used on virtually all boards for live sound too.

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#149124 - 02/01/12 10:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: PRearden]
Muzic Trax Offline
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Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 4908
Loc: California
If a midi patch sounded as good as a Real Track, there wouldn't be a need for RT's, IMO. My old Tyros keyboard used patches called "Mega Voices," which had to convert regular patches to them. They were the Cat's Meow and sounded as good as a RT. You couldn't record with them though, they worked after conversion.

The Biab Midi Styles are fantastic. If you have a hardware synth to use with them, Biab sounds like a whole different program compared to the standard Forte/VSC. I actually prefer the Biab Midi Styles over the RT ones, but since I don't have my Tyros anymore, I prefer the RT's now because of the sound.

There is a night and day difference when using a synth that sounds and emulates a real instrument, compared to the standard GM palette. Plus, midi data allows much more control when creating a song with a Biab Style.

Trax

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#149125 - 02/02/12 02:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: PRearden]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:

never thought MIDI was of no use. It's great for lighting and triggering pyrotechnics. Many act use synth access axes in the studio and it is used on virtually all boards for live sound too.




Of course, we meant musically useful, but I had forgotten about other applications. I think another language/protocol has been developed for lighting though due to the occasional latency with MIDI and the need for ultrafast response from lasers and multiple other high-speed lighting instruments.

Note that, even though Synth Access instruments are labeled as MIDI, they aren't, repeat are not. They may indirectly produce MIDI output through a converter such as the new Roland VG-99, but all that is generated from the pickup is trigger, pitch, and dynamics--no MIDI data whatsoever. I bought my VG-88 thinking that I had pitch-to-MIDI capability, but the MIDI ports on the unit are for control only.

I've been out of live sound for so long I have never used MIDI there. Do you mean for control of effects or other automation? Please say more.

Signed,

Interested
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"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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#149126 - 02/02/12 05:17 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Ryszard]
filkertom Online   content
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Registered: 01/03/06
Posts: 2028
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
I do not know why people think MIDI is of no use. It's different. MIDI instruments often do not have the articulation that "real" instruments have, but I use both all the time, and often combine MIDI and RT both generated by the same song in BIAB. MIDI can be used to control other instruments, and it's of course possible to completely change the tone of a piece instantly merely by changing the patch.

Re: your sample -- sounds good 'n' Hendrixy to me. I'll go back and look at your original post.
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#149127 - 02/02/12 08:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: pwarren]
Tim Lawrence Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 348
Loc: Long Beach California. United ...
Back in the late 90's I was using a JV80 as my main external sound module.
Back then I really never thought that the pros were using midi in their completed productions till I started hearing the JV-80 being used in quite a few TV commercials and a soap my wife and I were watching.
That gave me a new respect for midi and how it could be used for other then just a hobby.
Even some 12 years back the sound quality of the higher end external midi equipment was amazing.
I use a Tyros 1 these days, but still have the JV-80 that I use for certain sounds.
Realtracks are great, but just don't have the versatility of midi yet.
Like others on here I use both midi and realtracks in my songs.

Tim



\

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#149128 - 02/02/12 08:42 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Tim Lawrence]
ROG Offline
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Registered: 12/12/11
Posts: 2469
Loc: York, England
Sometimes when you're writing sound to picture, you can be working on a midi keyboard and composing without reference to either time signature or key signature and without being sure what the final sound is going to be. Having midi data to play around with in this situation is great and I can't think of another way it could be done which would be anywhere near as good. Long live midi!

ROG.

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#149129 - 02/02/12 09:24 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: ROG]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4261
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
PWarren - I enjoyed the clip. Definitely Hendrix-ish.

As many people here know, I'm a big MIDI fan.

MIDI only sounds as good as
  • The MIDI sound module and/or particular voice you are using (as we all know, MIDI has no sound, but synthesizers do)
  • The skill of the player or programmer who creates the MIDI file (or style)

Chart topping CD's and entire motion picture soundtracks have been produced with MIDI synthesizers. Virtually every modern synth has MIDI as it's core. I've even seen MIDI based synthesizers in international touring symphony orchestras.

MIDI is far from dead. It is alive in virtually every professional recording studio in the country. It is in movies, on stages, and in small lounges everywhere.

At this moment in the evolution of music, MIDI still offers thousands of times more editing power than pre-recorded loops do. Listen to This Clip or This One keeping in mind (1) they were recorded in a live gig using an old Archos Juke Box through its internal microphone and (2) ripped at 56k so the sound quality isn't nearly as good as it is live. But even with the lowered sonic quality, they still sound like sax and guitar solos. Other than the bit of vocals, they are 100% MIDI, and the solos are 100% my notes, not someone else's.

I posted the guitar solo on a Guitar Player's forum as an example of my playing. I got dozens of comments on how well I played guitar, one even told me it was "Jeff Beck-ish" (to me the ultimate compliment). After a few pages of 100% positive comments, I confessed I was really playing wind synthesizer. Pages of comments followed telling me how real it sounded, and only one person said in retrospect there was something about the vibrato that sounded a little funny to him. It doesn't get any more real than that!

The lead instruments (synth sax/synth guitar) are my improvisations playing a wind MIDI controller through a Yamaha VL70m MIDI tone module and over the chord progressions to copyrighted songs. The backgrounds are edited BiaB MIDI files (the sax clip uses a PG style the guitar clip uses one of mine). Since you cannot copyright a chord progression, and since the improvised melody is my own creation, I am not violating anybody else's copyrights. If there is a small fragment of the original song as the lead-in or exit of the solo, it is short enough to be considered OK under the fair use laws.

These solos would have been impossible using loops.

MIDI isn't dead, in fact, it hasn't even reached its full potential yet.

When I want to listen to someone else's music, I put a CD in the player. When I want to play music I prefer to play my own notes, not someone else's. For that I use my MIDI synths/controllers/tools, sax, guitar, and/or flute.

Insights and incites by Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (02/02/12 09:35 AM)
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#149130 - 02/02/12 09:37 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Notes Norton]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
I am so tired of the issue. I use midi. I have some Norton stuff. But the posting just to justify the clip slinging of a few weeks ago, and to drag up the free advertising ad(vertising) nausum, is getting to me.

I think himself has been too generous. It's his sandbox. The constant questioning and re-hasing of this tired horse is starting to smell.

All this has just been said. I feel like I'm in kindergarten.
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John Conley
Musica est vita

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#149131 - 02/02/12 12:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: PRearden]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

never thought MIDI was of no use. It's great for lighting and triggering pyrotechnics. Many act use synth access axes in the studio and it is used on virtually all boards for live sound too.




I don't think anyone ever said midi was of no use, even in the numerous discussions of midi vs RTs. The main comments have been that midi sounds too artificial compared to RTs. Others have responded to that by insisting midi blended with RTs sounds good. There were even a number of comparisons posted by Peter Gannon in one thread to which there were comments both pro and con.

The point I'm trying to make is that with soundfonts and VST FX, not to mention various editing techniques, you can get a midi track to sound good enough that many, maybe most, people wouldn't realize they were listening to midi especially when mixed with RDs and RTs.

Your point about other uses for midi is a good one that I hadn't considered. That alone would seem to make midi a continued necessity.
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#149132 - 02/02/12 12:34 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: John Conley]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:

All this has just been said. I feel like I'm in kindergarten.




There, there, John. It's nap time. Right after cookies and warm milk.
_________________________
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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#149133 - 02/02/12 12:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Muzic Trax]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

If a midi patch sounded as good as a Real Track, there wouldn't be a need for RT's, IMO.




'As good as' is very subjective. I only claim midi can be made to sound quite realistic and, when combined with RDs and RTs, can be good enough for covers. And that's something I didn't find possible with BiaB before the 2012 version.

Quote:

The Biab Midi Styles are fantastic. If you have a hardware synth to use with them, Biab sounds like a whole different program compared to the standard Forte/VSC. I actually prefer the Biab Midi Styles over the RT ones, but since I don't have my Tyros anymore, I prefer the RT's now because of the sound.

There is a night and day difference when using a synth that sounds and emulates a real instrument, compared to the standard GM palette. Plus, midi data allows much more control when creating a song with a Biab Style.

Trax




I basically agree with all this. You need to use the appropriate synth and patch or soundfont for the job. Some work better than others for a particular job.

For guitars in particular I was never able to get a convincing result before using soundfonts combined with plugin FX. Now I can create what I consider really good covers of songs that used to be impossible.
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#149134 - 02/02/12 12:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: filkertom]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

I do not know why people think MIDI is of no use.




I certainly don't think so either. However, I was never able to get a convincing guitar sound from midi in the past. Even with the Ketron, guitars always sounded like a weak facsimile of the real thing. This no matter what controllers had been used. Now I find you can have midi guitars that rival the RTs if they are used appropriately.

Quote:

...MIDI instruments often do not have the articulation that "real" instruments have...




I agree, and that continues even with the ability to use soundfonts and plugin FX. But I think we are much closer than before. I respectfully submit that if a good guitarist played a midi guitar with all the controller events for bends and expression and that midi was then treated as I did in the clip you would be able to fool most people. And to me that is a new pinnacle in midi based music.

Quote:

Re: your sample -- sounds good 'n' Hendrixy to me. I'll go back and look at your original post.




While I didn't emphasise it in the original post one point I was trying to pass on is how good the Camel Crusher distortion and Juicy77 amp were. I like amplitube and have been able to get some good sounds with it, especially 'clean' guitars. But the Juicy77 amp blows Amplitube out of the water for overdriven lead.
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#149135 - 02/02/12 01:03 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Tim Lawrence]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

Back in the late 90's I was using a JV80 as my main external sound module.
Back then I really never thought that the pros were using midi in their completed productions till I started hearing the JV-80 being used in quite a few TV commercials and a soap my wife and I were watching.
That gave me a new respect for midi and how it could be used for other then just a hobby.
Even some 12 years back the sound quality of the higher end external midi equipment was amazing.
I use a Tyros 1 these days, but still have the JV-80 that I use for certain sounds.
Realtracks are great, but just don't have the versatility of midi yet.
Like others on here I use both midi and realtracks in my songs.

Tim



\




I think the majority of posters agree with you. I certainly do. The few who don't are entitled to their opinions. I just wanted to offer some ideas that might make midi more useful to those who didn't like it.
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#149136 - 02/02/12 01:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BiaB 2012 revolutionizes midi... [Re: Notes Norton]
pwarren Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 826
Loc: BC, Canada
Quote:

PWarren - I enjoyed the clip. Definitely Hendrix-ish.




Thanks Notes. Hendrix would have been the last guitarist who I thought could be emulated resonably well using midi. I was very surprised that it worked.

Quote:

As many people here know, I'm a big MIDI fan.




I wouldn't have guessed...

Quote:

Listen to This Clip or This One




I would not have known that was midi myself, although I'm no expert. Another convincing argument that midi can rival RTs directly and, by extension, works really well combined with RDs and RTs. Thanks for the clips.
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PG Music News
#TechTipTuesday - Band-in-a-Box® Patch Updates

If you're ever experiencing an issue with your Band-in-a-Box program, make sure you have the most recent patch update for your version - this can be done at http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm.

Patch updates are released frequently, and are created by our development team to fix any reported bugs, tweak existing features within the program, update demos and other files as needed, and more!

To find out which version of the program you have, visit Help | About Band-in-a-Box within the program. You will see the full version number listing as:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2018 (512)

The number in parentheses is the build number. As you can see, my Band-in-a-Box is up to date and will continue to stay that way because I've selected "Automatically check for updates every 7 days" within the Help | Check for Updates.... option (you can set the number of days to a different number). This window will also look to see if you're version is up to date, so you don't technically have to visit http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm if you didn't want to!

Once you've installed your patch update (make sure the program is closed when you're doing this), give it another try - if you are still experiencing the same issue you can report it by contacting us directly, or you can post your result to the Forum thread that also announces the patch update, like our recent Band-in-a-Box 2018 Build 512 Update (Feb 15) post.

YouTube Find - How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES

Check out one of EricBlackmonGuitar's latest videos, How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES and you'll hear a great Band-in-a-Box backing track!

http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=blJPIX-9YbE

...and you'll also learn how to play blues with just a few notes!

A Little Bit Of Me Music Video!

A great music video created by forum user Floyd Jane! https://youtu.be/qPrejgnwb4M?t=3600

This song was featured in a detailed "The Birth of a Song" video created by Floyd Jane - watch the complete video here:
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RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is Here!

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is here! PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 includes many new features and enhancements:

Windows Audio (WASAPI) driver support. This allows for low latency audio recording/playback without requiring ASIO. Note that this supports 1 stereo input plus 1 stereo output at a time. For multiple inputs/outputs, you should continue to use either MME or ASIO.

ABC Notation format support. You can save a track of notation in a popular ASCII text format to import into other programs, or you can paste this format into a user forum as a way of sending the track (usually the melody and chord symbols) to other users without having to attach a file.

The built-in Audio Chord Wizard detection in the Chords window automatically detects the chords of the song, based on the audio data from all non-muted audio tracks. This works similar to the standalone Audio Chord Wizard, except that it uses the current bar lines of the existing song.

Notation Enhancements:
-X/8 time signature support. This is a special method of displaying 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 time signatures in the Notation window.
-The Duplicate previous chord in notation right-click menu lets you quickly duplicate the previous chord (group of notes on same peg) without having to reenter it.
-Delete highlighted notes in notation right-click menu lets you delete all highlighted notes.
-Delete all notes on this peg in notation right-click menu lets you delete all notes on the nearest peg that was clicked on.
-You can now enter Section Numbers. Previously, you could enter letters (A-Z) only, but now you can also enter numbers (1-9).

...a full list of the new features in PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is available at http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.features.htm

http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm

#TBT - The Beginning of Xtra Styles PAKs for Band-in-a-Box®

We released the much-loved Xtra Styles PAKs in August 2016! This release included 164 RealStyles for Jazz, Country, Rock-Pop, and Singer/Songwriter and worked with any Band-in-a-Box® 2016 or higher UltraPlusPAK, EverythingPAK, or Audiophile Edition!

Xtra Styles PAKs were such a hit... we couldn't stop making them! Since their introduction, we've released 3 more PAKs with a total of over 600 Xtra Styles in all!

Want to hear what other program users are doing with their Xtra Styles? Visit our Xtra STyles Contests forum to hear all the songs submitted during previous song contest we've had: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=102&page=1

Learn more about Xtra Styles PAKs and listen to their demos at http://www.pgmusic.com/xtrastyles.php?os=win.

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