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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Hi bob,
First off I enjoyed reading your post and found that link interesting.
That said, I gotta agree with some here.
I did feel like you were advertising in an off handed way, but I just noticed it. It didn't bother me.
But there's a saying that goes something like, . "Where interest lies, honor dies."
Lol. But I didn't have to click on that link, and neither did anyone else.
I personally use Midi, karaoke and Realtracks to get the job done.
What ever works and sounds right.
Realtracks are great, but there's just not enough of them yet to fit every situation. Karaoke is the best sounding, but can't use them for original songs just covers.
Midi is the most versatile of the three, but is lacking in sound quality.
Some times though midi is the right fit for a certain song.
Some here might think midi is dead, but for me I'm gonna use every tool available til I can't do music anymore.
Tim
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Journeyman
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I can only play what I see on the sheet music so Midi and RT is perfect for me because I can create and save the BIAB file to match the music exactly i.e. repeats etc. A Karaoke file wouldn't match the sheet exactly so it is no use to me. We all have different needs.
Tony
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Notes,
I want to go on record thanking you for all that you have shared here and on your web site. Most of what I know about MIDI I learned from you. I respect you as a musician, as a performer, as a businessman, as a communicator and as a person who has standards and lives by them. I can't say all those things about everybody I know.
If the final comment on my previous post came across as criticism... I meant it more as an observation. You may or may not already know that people on both sides of this discussion are weary of it.
When non-confrontational posts stir up confrontational replies, it's a sign that people are becoming sensitized to the topic.
Nuff said.
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Journeyman
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YES... enough of the 'Notes pushin' midi' already ! Don't you have a midi forum on your own site ? Sorry, it's just getting a bit old and I'm new here !
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Yes the smell of very old spam does tend to stink up the place.
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I think all opinions are important here and Notes does a great job being an advocate of using midi to accomplish your musical goals. Since this forum has become a RT dominated place, it is nice to hear what still can be done with midi. As long as PGM is OK with Notes' type of fairly low-key "advertising", I am OK with it, too. I mainly use RT's myself, but midi is not dead and won't be for awhile.
I say to Notes -- keep pushing midi, I am learning from your posts.
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Quote:
I think all opinions are important here and Notes does a great job being an advocate of using midi to accomplish your musical goals. Since this forum has become a RT dominated place, it is nice to hear what still can be done with midi. As long as PGM is OK with Notes' type of fairly low-key "advertising", I am OK with it, too. I mainly use RT's myself, but midi is not dead and won't be for awhile.
I say to Notes -- keep pushing midi, I am learning from your posts.
I don't want to discourage Notes from posting his interesting and helpful information either. Notes is a real value-adding contributor to the forum, and has been for a long time. The last thing I would want is to start a censorship movement against one or the other point of view.
I guess my original post was trying to say that topics can be discussed in a way that is all-inclusive, or in a way that divides people into opposing camps. We seem to be getting divided here, and I don't think that should be the result of open discussion.
In other words "More Insights, fewer Incites"
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I also support Notes when it comes to MIDI.
I am also tired of the MIDI vs. RT threads but I must say some of the blame has to go to John. He keeps preaching that MIDI is dead and although he does have a right to think and say that when he does those of us who do not believe that have the same right to think and say it isn’t dead.
Just my thoughts.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Journeyman
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Well I think midi is far from being dead. I thought I read on here somewhere that a new midi standard is being considered?
Doesn't sound like it's dead to me.
On higher end midi equipment the sounds are actually pretty good.
Especially piano, strings and the like.
But even on the higher end stuff instruments like acoustic guitars and certain reed instruments don't sound all that great.
At least they don't sound like the real thing. and that's OK too. Some times they sound better then the real instruments depending on the song and sound you're looking for.
There's really no contest when it comes to midi verses RT specially the acoustic side of things, but I still think midi has it's place as part of a musicians gear.
In my opinion comparing RT to midi is really apples and oranges.
They are two different animals and both have there place in today's music creation.
Tim
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Journeyman
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Must agree. I love my RealTracks.....and I use them a lot, BUT there are times when I need Midi. Both, to me, are equally valuable.  Joe G.
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To each his/her own. I have a lot of sampled instruments in my MIDI arsenal. I have had great results using MIDI based backing tracks and nobody has ever complained about the tone.
I can cover the parts with slightly different sounding instruments, or entirely different instruments so the audience hears the song but doesn't hear what sounds like the original recording in the background.
And I can arrange the song to my heart's content - transpose it without munchkinization, extend it for some soloing or to keep the dancers on the floor longer (especially those 2 minute radio cuts), add a real ending instead of a fade out.
I can play the background vocal parts on synth or instrument samples so the audience doesn't hear stranger's voice singing the background vocals like so many karaoke tracks.
IMHO fade outs, background singers, and identical to the recording instruments are dead giveaways that you are doing karaoke -- but to tell the truth, I listen with musician's ears so I don't know what gives it away to the audience member that can tell the difference.
All I know is what I try in front of the audience, what works, what doesn't work, and what the people who hire us tell us about other groups. I've been in the duo since 1985, we've played on cruise ships, 5 star hotels, Television (CBS, NBC, ABC, MTV and the BBC), Yacht Clubs, Country Clubs, etc., from the US to the People's Republic of China (by invitation) so we must be doing something right.
But let me stress, the way we do it isn't the only right way to do it. I've always said there is more than one right way to make music. It works for us, and it works well for us.
I share what works for us. I've talked about gear, set lists vs playing the crowd, reading the crowd so you know what to try first, stage attitudes, what to do if you have a musical train wreck, and quite a few other topics on these forums. All are my opinion, all are what works for me, all are intended to be shared in the spirit of helping my fellow musicians the way my fellow musicians help me.
From the thousands of posts I've made, take what works for you, ignore what doesn't work for you, and please share what works for you with the forum so we can all learn from your successes and failures.
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I have followed this thread and others where Notes has posted and he is no doubt a very capable professional musician and his views are much appreciated by me.
However Notes is pushing his fake disks (I have a few and they are really good) and on reading his posts it does seem to me that he is pushing the benefits of midi without understanding that there are quite a few of us that love realtracks as well and to appreciate the real benefit realtracks are to us.(for the record I use both midi and realtracks)
Like another poster on here I went to the Norton site and added about 10 disks to my basket and they very quickly added up to hundreds of dollars.
I just removed the lot from my basket in the end as it was December last and my money would be better spent in upgrading biab to 2012 for $139 ultra pak.
I know Bob says he is always running a sale but it was better for me to spend my money that way. (though it is his site and he can charge what he likes)
I don't think midi is dead or will die in the near future and I have no doubt PG will go back to developing new midi disks in the future.
Musiclover
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Quote:
I think all opinions are important here and Notes does a great job being an advocate of using midi to accomplish your musical goals. Since this forum has become a RT dominated place, it is nice to hear what still can be done with midi. As long as PGM is OK with Notes' type of fairly low-key "advertising", I am OK with it, too. I mainly use RT's myself, but midi is not dead and won't be for awhile.
I say to Notes -- keep pushing midi, I am learning from your posts.
Amen!
There appear to be a number of people here, now, that just enjoy an argument. Very little to offer other than a disagreement. My list of ignored users grows longer...
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Quote:
Quote:
I think all opinions are important here and Notes does a great job being an advocate of using midi to accomplish your musical goals. Since this forum has become a RT dominated place, it is nice to hear what still can be done with midi. As long as PGM is OK with Notes' type of fairly low-key "advertising", I am OK with it, too. I mainly use RT's myself, but midi is not dead and won't be for awhile.
I say to Notes -- keep pushing midi, I am learning from your posts.
Amen!
There appear to be a number of people here, now, that just enjoy an argument. Very little to offer other than a disagreement. My list of ignored users grows longer...
Mick, don't let it grow so long that you end up talking to yourself!!
musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 02/11/12 10:46 AM.
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True, I can't run the same kind of discount that PG does as my business is much smaller. Most people who buy from me buy everything from PG Music and a few things from me to enhance BiaB. And that's OK with me. Gigging is my main occupation, BiaB styles are my sideline.
But this post wasn't supposed to be about my products. It's about performance and what obviously irritated a client of ours about the previous band. A word to the wise.
Nor do I expect that my way of doing things is the definitive way of doing things. I studied engineering and there seems to be trade-offs for everything involved.
Doing karaoke tracks and putting loops together in a DAW may save time, have slightly better tone, but if you do, and you make them sound too karaoke-ish, you might turn some people off.
I'm sure there are things I do that turn some people off as well. You can't please all the people all the time.
I've learned a lot by reading other people's posts on these forums, and I hope I've helped others with my own contributions.
And I do enjoy a good debate. I learn from them.
But play fair.
And perhaps I'm being a bit too defensive here, but if I write on any subject that doesn't involve MIDI it's OK, but as soon as I mention MIDI people accuse me of advertising. That's not fair, its a cheap shot.
I understand people's anti-spam feelings and I share them. If I came to the forum and only promoted my product, or tried to sell you knock-off Rolex watches, I think you would be justified in your feelings. But when I write about all aspects of musical performance and many aspects of BiaB, and I write about my favorite part of BiaB which is MIDI, please be tolerant. I would be writing about MIDI even if I didn't sell MIDI styles. I love MIDI.
I think MIDI will diminish with amateurs who cannot play a musical instrument, and judging from some of the MIDI files I've seen, that's a good thing. But I don't think MIDI will die with the pros. It's too musical and allows a great deal of personal, musical expression.
And to get back on topic. If you have a good sounding alternative to using karaoke tracks, think about it. You don't have to abandon them, there is more than one way to make music.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
Mick, don't let it grow so long that you end up talking to yourself!!
musiclover
I do that now!
Sometimes I even answer.
But occasionally I say, "Huh?"
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I'll make a couple of comments here. 1.I'm not going to research this but if my memory is correct, When Note's post was pulled some time back it was Peter who provided a post himself stating that it was a new moderator that pulled Note's posts advertising as he/she was unaware that Notes had been given long standing permission to do so. 2. If you are doing covers and it is your goal to do them exactly like the record the only way is with MIDI or play all the parts yourself. Even with MIDI it takes A LOT of work to get right. My friend still uses MIDI after many years and makes $450/night 8 nights a month. Check his demos. BVD
Last edited by silvertones; 02/11/12 02:01 PM.
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Quote:
I make my own tracks using 100% MIDI instruments (synths) and the same lady told us she is going to ask for us to come back again and again. (seehttp://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html for how I make and use them).
I can see how everyone got their feathers ruffled, somewhere in allot of your posts there is a dig for Midi, or a sly way to lead them to your site..ie go here to see how I make them...
And tho I like the Notes demos I have heard they still sound mechanical. I use midi a lot, but ONLY for percussion & drums because Addictive Drums, Oddgrooves, and Smartloops have created some great FEELING drum tracks....as for sax-guitar-bass....well, they still sound midi.
I like the Real Tracks & I like the midi, using Reaper and Studio One V2 midi is a simple to edit as the RT audio, so I can sue whatever I am happy wit, but there is a "selling" atmosphere to a lot of your posts Mr. Notes, intentional or not....
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Notes, Quote:
And perhaps I'm being a bit too defensive here, but if I write on any subject that doesn't involve MIDI it's OK, but as soon as I mention MIDI people accuse me of advertising. That's not fair, its a cheap shot.
I agree Notes. It is a cheap shot. That's why I've spoken up in your defense on several recent threads. You do weigh in on numerous topics and I hope you continue to do so.
Maybe some of the negative comments are from those with “music envy” who're jealous of the fact that you're making a living with steady gigs AND you're using BIAB to do it. To add insult to injury, you're supplementing your income by making fake books and styles using BIAB ! How dare you ??? LOL. 
Don't let a small handful keep you from participating here. I enjoy your posts. They're always well written and informative.
…...............................................................................
Now, my 2 cents on MIDI vs. RT's.
Why argue about whether MIDI or RT's are better?
The answer to that question is different for each person, … and possibly even for each song or instrument.
Choose MIDI, choose RT's, … or choose both! Or, … here's a novel idea, … play some or all of the backup instruments yourself !
Your music, …... your choice. 
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 02/11/12 02:50 PM.
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A person running a business would be nuts to NOT advertise.
There are many types of advertisements.
These threads are crawled by bots. Those bots are mechanical. Oh Oh.
How often and how much? That's not for me to decide.
I like a good argument. Discussions are what my wife has with me. As in, "we don't need it." I started that argument when I picked it up. I'm also very smart. Smile, and put it back. I might buy that can of maple smoky Halifax brown beans and eat it. When the recycle box goes out there is the moment the eyebrows go up, the glance back down. I often win those.
On topic:
Most Karaoke sucks. My opinion.
Much of Midi sucks. Again see above.
I like/love Realtracks. Again see both above.
Midi, for now, is good at ensuring timing, controlling voices, lights etc.
The product we are discussing is meant to add in a quick band. It is not to replicate a cover. It is not to control lighting. It is not to control a voice box. It is the backup band.
I can see a new direction. Make the assembly graphic oriented. A picture of a guitar, a keyboard, a drum kit etc on stage. Move them off and on. Move over the graphic and get a pull down menu. Use the menu to select a different guitar, eg. acoustic 12 string. A button to make them bigger or smaller. (Loud) As you move them they move in the stereo field. Your timeline is similar with chords and each instrument has plug ins. You wire it. At certain points on your timeline you can insert (F5 eh?) what you want and that happens, volume up here down there etc. Or click on solo and have it be an automated thing where the graphics show guys with bones or sticks etc. You grab him and throw him at a start point, and drag him till he drops.
Intro A/B/C/D markers with places to graphically change the band, someone sits or comes in. Assemble the piece like this later
Intro
A
B
B
A
D
B
B
Ending
you define each part, and can copy a to c and then change it etc.
See, I'm a fan of music.
In the end, the skeleton of what his-self has done, is the remarkable thing. The concept, taking the actual instruments, and doing the assembly underneath is the genius part. So the rest of us, with little exertion, can go somewhere people never even boldly dreamed possible.
What the midi market now needs is the realization that selling is selling, and here's my Ketron, SD99, (that's just the cover changed and a picture in B&W of some guy in black with a sax.) All my styles are optimized to use this piece of gear. There's the rub. Because the argument is there, the whole idea behind it is that someone with good knowledge of how to make styles has tweaked the beachguys1 patched to sound just as close as required so help me Rhonda or whoever.
Thus you order the Ketron for $29 bucks more because it was tested and signed. And with each purchase you get the fabulous BeachHouse boxed styles, with a USB key shaped like a surfboard. Oh and if you buy before...never mind.
So you get the photo, digitally enhanced.
I remain,
not afraid
to call a spade
a Shovel.
Thank you, thank you very much.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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