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to me this discussion boils down to definition of terms, and we aren't all defining the terms the same way. Here's MY set of definitions:
1) LIVE PERFORMANCE means exactly that... one or more live musicians performing in real time with real instruments and real voices. Nothing artificial added.
2) KARAOKE is total backing tracks and a singer, usually not such a good one and most likely drunk. If an actual instrument enters the equation, then (in my mind) it ceases to be Karaoke.
3) ENTERTAINMENT is a much broader term. Both Karaoke and Live Performance are sub-sets of entertainment. To my mind, entertainment is the combination of any skills and technologies that make a presentation that pleases an audience. From what I can tell, most of the people in this forum are ENTERTAINERS because they add extra tracks and effects to make one or two stage personalities sound far better than they would without the techno aid.
In the final analysis,the only differentiation the audience makes is whether it sounded good or not. I don't think that most audiences care whether the music is played live, played semi live with trax, played as total karaoke , played by a DJ or even a Juke Box.
We're not stars, we're background ambience
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I always thought of karaoke as entertainment with a twist, because 98% of the singers are so bad that the people are there to LAUGH at them like they were at a comedy club.
That being said, I was at karaoke night once about 20 years ago (probably the last time I went) and ended up recruiting a female vocalist. She was AMAZING.
There was also a time that my band of those years wanted to play this club and we could not get them to even give us a listen. So one night they were having karaoke night, and coincidently the karaoke DJ was a good friend of ours, all 5 of us went out in our band jackets, signed up to sing, and when we were called we sang "If You Don't Know Me By Now". This DJ used to record on cassette and give them to the singer as a souvenir. We, of course, didn't care about that, but 2 girls actually got into a fistfight over that tape! We went back up later and did "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling", and the same 2 girls were fighting until I stepped in and said "Hey, why don't you each take ONE? And better still, tell this club owner you'd come out to hear us if he booked us."
We left with a contract for 8 consecutive Wednesdays.
So, karaoke has it's place. Just not in MY place.
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That's a tough one.
Leilani and I perform live over my backing tracks. We both sing, play guitar and synth and I also play sax and flute 'live' over the tracks (choice of instrument depends on the song). None of the solos are in the backing track and we always play/sing live. So it isn't karaoke - although it is definitely related to it.
We certainly are alive, but some of our music is pre-recorded.
I've gone to the ballet where the dancers performed to pre-recorded music. As a musician I'd love to hear a real orchestra accompany them, but the ballet has a difficult time surviving and are always short of money. To pay an orchestra would 'break the bank'. So in the same respect of this question - Is the ballet live?
When we performed on the cruise ships in the late 1980s, the orchestra performed to a click track while the dancers and production singer did the main show on stage. All the vocals except the lead were on the click track along with duplicates of what the live orchestra played in 'the pit'. How live is that?
Back in the 1970s I went to a multi-band rock concert to see Dr. John (unfortunately he didn't show up). In the Alice Cooper segment, they did a faux-hanging of Alice (Vince) and during the parade to the gallows, the backing tape obviously broke, because midway through, the only sound was the parade drum coming over the PA set. They continued to hang him without the feedback guitars.
I know many major concert stars no longer play/sing live but lip-sync to a special concert recording of their tunes. Why? Couple of reasons (1) there is too much money at stake to risk if the singer loses his/her voice to the flu and (2) with all the gymnastics that singers are expected to do these days, it's very difficult to sing on pitch while doing cartwheels.
I really don't know how to answer the question. Semi-live? Computer assisted? Perhaps a new term needs to be coined.
More importantly, does the audience care? Does the audience make a distinction? Or do they just care about how well they are being entertained.
We've been playing with backing tracks since the mid 80s and it has been our primary source of income for all those years. We were in a 5 piece band before that, and when we were out of work for 2 months due to personnel problems, we went duo/tracks (since my first instrument is sax). The audiences we play for like it, and almost all of our work is either repeat business or referral.
We have played cruise ships, 5 star hotels, and have appeared on MTV, ABC, CBS, NBC and The BBC using backing tracks. Probably couldn't have done that "frang-a frang-a-ing" on the guitar while we sang over that.
So obviously it works.
But is it live?
Interesting question.
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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We can stretch the lines anyway we want, to cover our personal views, and i can accept most of what Pat is saying, and that is why it is not a good idea to label folks.
I still say as long as part of the program is "alive" it can fall into the live category. Have we not seen vocal acts perform at a show, or even a variety TV program with a recorded backing band, and be billed as live?
Still each is due his view on these matters.
As far as karaoke, it can be a lot of fun. I remember going to a karaoke party hosted by some folks we know pretty well, and it turned out to be about 250 in the crowd. All invited guest. I met two old friends i had not seen for 20 years, one a gal that used to date my brother, i did not know she sang. With my wife's blessing she and i did a killer version of a couple old duets, plus a long time friend i used to play basketball with back in the day, ask me to do a song with him, and we did a version of the everly brothers "dream" that brought the house down. If there are a few good singers it can be a great way to hone your chops in front of a crowd, and as mentioned above the occasional train wreck can be somewhat entertaining.
Notes brings up a important point, there are those that sing over the guitar alone, and most consider that a live performance. So do I, but think about it is it always a good performance? When you sing old hits with the guitar you are doing versions of the song, and most songs have more than just a guitar in them. Some are really good versions, and some are just okay, some down right suck, but it is the path the artist chooses. Me personally i would rather hear a good mix of guitar only, and some good old classic with full tracks.As long as it is lively!
Hey maybe that is the answer, we will call it Lively music! Lively music tonight featuring "xxxxxxxx"
Last edited by Robh; 03/14/12 07:46 AM.
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A forum is a difficult place to try to put nuance into a casual and fast post. I was in no way putting down anyone, I was mainly agreeing with Rachael who is a good player. From the point of view of a good player like both of us are, less is better because we're both good enough to handle it. Others are not and that's fine, no snobbery here. I mean really, I'm going to be some artistic snob while I go out and make my big time $50 or $100 a couple times a month with an occasional $200 thrown in? Please. It's all good.
We saw Nutcracker at the Redondo Performing Arts Center last Xmas and it was to tracks. I was disapointed but understand the economics of it. The reason I was disappointed was earler in the year we saw another musical there and they did use a live orchestra but I guess Nutcracker didn't rate that.
Bob
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Based on conversations with musicians in this area & also what I'm reading here...I would say it's live if you say it is. It's karaoke if you say it is. It is to you...what you call it. Nothing more. Nothing less.
It's the same for the audience. There's no right answer. Only opinions.
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Quote:
I go out and make my big time $50 or $100 a couple times a month with an occasional $200 thrown in? Please.
Bob
Bob,
Is the 50 - 100 for the night? Man I'd be looking to throw in some backing tracks if for no other reason just to see if they would up the pay a bit . . . just saying. Man that won't cover gas much less equipment cost and upkeep these days.
Take Care,
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JazzyBobRredondoCaliBud! I hear ya, i fully understand where you are coming from, and it is not always a matter of good enough, i can play the guitar, but i Like full tracked sound. I have played guitar only for a long time, and from time to time still do.
And we are all right to a degree, it comes down to view point, and opinion. Mine is no better than yours, Bobbyflatpicker's, Note's, Pat's, Eddie's, Mik's, Danny's, or anyone. Just mine i guess.
I just wanna shake this nagging chest cold, and get back to singing some really bad karaoke!
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Quote:
I just wanna shake this nagging chest cold, and get back to singing some really bad karaoke!
You could probably sing some really bad karaoke WITH the nagging chest cold!
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Getting back to the OP's original question, asked on behalf of his friend:
"How many instruments can I put on before people will stop thinking of it as a live performance?"
I would say: How many instruments do you think you need to make it sound great? If you're playing Folk music covers, a simple guitar/vocal will do just fine. Conversely, if you're playing Classic Rock covers like we do (Jurassic Rock). I want a big sound. For me, it's all about the sound.
The live music business has changed drastically since we started doing a duo back in '75. Back then, we did a lot of gigs with just a guitar and a bass. Later we added a drum machine ( a horrible-sounding monstrosity I still have!), but it increased our ability to get work. We could market ourselves a lot cheaper than a full band. All of our friends in 4-5 piece bands were going hungry. It was simply a matter of necessity. In all the years we've used tracks, we have never had a patron or a club owner question the use of them. They only care about the sound as well.
This is 2012. We have fantastic technology at our disposal, so why not use it?
As for the 'people' the OP mentions – these 'people' can't even hear the difference between an MP3 and a WAV file, let alone an analog recording on vinyl. Play it fast and loud, make them dance, keep them drinking. Worry about the artistic considerations in your dotage.
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Quote:
You all are a buch of slackers -- no backing tracks allowed! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMuWi0dUBc
I think he could hook BIAB remote to that amp.
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Quote:
This is 2012. We have fantastic technology at our disposal, so why not use it?
AMEN!!!
Why is it when Geddy Lee steps in a pedal that launches a sequencer, he is "triggering", but when you, me and 90db makes 3 step on a pedal that starts a sequence playing on a computer it is cheating?
All the guys I know who do solo and duo don't even use "software" when they play live. They have what they created WITH the software dumped out to MP3s and play that as the backing tracks.
When clubs were paying $2000 a night, okay, then you get the 6 pieces with the 2 horns. For $200 a night, you get me and an iPod.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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one of my pet peeves is the prevalant notion that a dude on a stage with a guitar and mic constitutes a live performance... but a dude on stage with a guitar and a mic and a backing track is somehow less.
Most of the solo guitar-vocalists I've heard locally are playing at a level most of us played at in high school. In contrast, it has taken me YEARS to accumulate the knowledge to create tasteful tracks that perfectly suit my needs. Yet the part I take most satisfaction in is the part that gets a bad rap from purists.
I guess I'm more of a fusionist than a purist... I want to bring elements from every kind of entertaining to what I do.
Speaking of purists... here in NC, bluegrass isn't considered real if the the band uses an electric bass or an acoustic-electric guitar.
At some point discussions like this tend to become more ANAL than ANALytical.
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Quote:
Is the 50 - 100 for the night? Man I'd be looking to throw in some backing tracks if for no other reason just to see if they would up the pay a bit . . . just saying. Man that won't cover gas much less equipment cost and upkeep these days.
That's for the 5 piece jazz band I used to work with in the restaurant 2 miles from me that changed ownership last December and they threw out the bands. Now they have steam tables for happy hour where we used to set up at 7PM until it's time for the thumpa, thumpa urban disco the place turns into at 10PM on the weekends. Great, huh? I do have 3 regular commercial duo gigs coming up this summer where I get $150-200 but there's some driving too. I'm the whole band with a sax player. Not sure yet if we're still going to do the casino thing with a third person. I'll probably get a couple of big band gigs later this year so that's what, maybe 5 or 6 total gigs and a few Xmas parties if I'm lucky. I'm sure I could do freebies in some coffee shop but I think I'll pass on that.
It's all DJ's now, they're the ones that have taken over the live music scene. I'll give them credit, they're not just schleps playing songs, they are very good entertainers, they show up with their crew and they're making $500-1,000 or more for a party. These are not regular gigs as we know them, around here they basically lease a big club for the night and put on a show. After paying the owners they keep everything including the door and the booze or maybe it's a percentage. I'm sure there's different ways to split the money. One of my young friends drove me to one and it was exactly the same as we all remember, a big lively crowd including a doorman with a long line waiting to get in, lots of noise, lots of foxy babes just no band, it's a huge sound system with one main DJ and usually a couple of guest DJ's. It's those guys who are the local stars now not musicians.
You can find these places on Youtube and see what's happening. Look up the big spring break resort areas, you'll see lots of lights, smoke, anywhere from 500 to 1000 people, lots of booze, yelling and screaming, wet T shirt contests, all that good stuff we all remember with a crew of DJ's up front. Just like 1974 on the Sunset Strip in Hollywood or any other big city in the developed world. Just no bands. Or to be precise, few bands. Yes I know there are some but not many.
Bob
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Bob, I know just what you mean man . . . the part of your response that ALL musicians should hear loud and clear is "guest DJ's", man that blows me away. The audience actually is happy for another DJ to take over the record spinning duties. Look I was away from music for quite a few years so I don't know how the DJ came to prominence but they sure must have had some good PR and one hell of a marketing plan. As now a days when most young, under forty to teenagers, think of music in a club or at a party they think of a DJ, not a duo trio quartet or full band. I try my best to get the point across that instead of a DJ, why not get a real band as these days the price is not too far apart. Hell I see people planning very expensive party’s and weddings and when it comes to the music they think, “we need a DJ”, not “we need a band”, not we need a DJ. Heck the spell check would not even let me type DJ in lower case . . . not that’s good PR my friend.  Later,
Last edited by Danny C.; 03/14/12 05:48 PM.
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Pat, that is my point in a nut shell. I know no one here means to be snooty about it, but in reality it comes off that way. It is just human nature, to think that if they don't do it my way it is the wrong way, and therefore inferior.
Take your point of bluegrass, many of us came up on it in some way or another. I grew up listening to the Oprey, and folks like Bill Monroe, and such. But other than a few big names mainstream America does not recall many artist in that genre, 'cept maybe the Dirt band. HHhhmmm bluegrass, and country mixed with a touch of rock, and roll?!?!
As far as your point about a solo guitarist/vocalist I have heard some great ones. Some who play jazz standards, classical ditties, folk tunes, Pop/rock/country standards, and many are pretty darned good, a few that were outstanding, but many are just okay. Their guitar playing was average, and vocals just about the same. Now i have heard some one man bands that were stunningly incredible, versatile, and very entertaining. What go me into creating a one man band setup was a cruise my wife and i took about 10 years ago. There was a guy, with about 3 different nice guitars, and a small laptop running a sequencer, Cubase i believe, that was routed through a Yamaha synth, and a couple rack mounted effects, and that dude could play anything, he was a very accomplished guitarist, but he sounded like a 5 piece cover band that had decades of polish. People were sitting around filing every seat around listening to every set he played.
After spending a few years early on in a band that never agreed on song list, lead singer turns, and practice times, then several years sitting around playing my guitar for any who would listen i decided to develop a show even if it was just for fun. about the time i got my system running properly, and i found BiaB, i was asked to play a going away party for a dear friend. It had been years since i had really played for people other than a with few close friends here and there, or my parent anniversary party a few years back duo-ed with my brother in law on fiddle.
I was shocked when i found myself in front of about 150 people. I played a set of about 15 songs (all i had prepared) rather than 20 or so listeners, and 130 milling around doing other things. I found myself with a pack house standing room only situation. People were amazed at what i had put together, and i received a ton of compliments. I was asked back the next time a good friend moved away. and that time put together a full show complete with another 16 songs solo, and another 6 or so with guest artist.
I am sure that is i sat there and play nothing but the guitar and sang folks would have politely listened for a while then slowly started to lose interest and i would have been forced to compete with a talking crowd. Rather than that i had the front row clapping, and the back rows dancing!
Point to be made. This software has given me something i always wanted. An opportunity to entertain, and entertain well. I gotta say the crowd was live even if i wasn't!
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I got my first BiaB in 1993, and have gotten most of the up grades ever since 2004 I believe. This has opened up whole new world for me in what i have seen described as Almost Live Music. I am very successful in my retirement as a performing artist with another vocalist and my guitar. We keep very busy and now have over 2,000 songs in our catalogue. I only use my PC, and a sound system and spend a lot of time blending in diffrent tracks. It takes time, but is worth it. I use nothing but BiaB and a lot of patience and it has paid off. I really love the program. Most audiences are amazed when they realize we did this ourselves, and have no commercial tracks, just BiaB. My only desire is that we can soon get a few more good country piano tracks. We play all styles but lean toward country. And I think the prices are very good for what you get. Count me as a happy user.
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Quote:
I got my first BiaB in 1993, and have gotten most of the up grades ever since 2004 I believe. This has opened up whole new world for me in what i have seen described as Almost Live Music. I am very successful in my retirement as a performing artist with another vocalist and my guitar. We keep very busy and now have over 2,000 songs in our catalogue. I only use my PC, and a sound system and spend a lot of time blending in diffrent tracks. It takes time, but is worth it. I use nothing but BiaB and a lot of patience and it has paid off. I really love the program. Most audiences are amazed when they realize we did this ourselves, and have no commercial tracks, just BiaB. My only desire is that we can soon get a few more good country piano tracks. We play all styles but lean toward country. And I think the prices are very good for what you get. Count me as a happy user.
Roger,
Welcome to the forum.
2000 songs, and I thought I was a bad @$$ with nearly 700. I guess I'll spend my weekend arranging, thanks a lot.
Later,
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Hell I see people planning very expensive party’s and weddings and when it comes to the music they think, “we need a DJ”, not “we need a band”, not we need a DJ.
The reason is those wedding parties are not in their 60's except for the parents and their friends. The bride and groom and their friends who make up 90% of the party are mostly in their 30's. They know nothing of what we're talking about, they never went to clubs and saw real bands. To them DJ's are it, period. I think the reason is their type of music can't be covered by a live band anyway. It's all mostly sequenced with very bass heavy drums and such. No way can a live drummer duplicate that and no way can a live bass player do those super heavy thumping things without a ton of equipment and it's not a bass player doing it anyway. It's from a synth. Then there's all those little but very important synthy parts and scratches that are thrown in. I've actually gritted my teeth and listened to several sets worth of modern music. By modern I mean in the last twenty years. I know, that sounds incredible but rap, hip hop and the new R & B is that old. I listen with an ear towards how would I put a band together to do that stuff live and the answer is I couldn't. Nobody could without a full studio of stuff with all the roadies. DJ's are the only way to do it and they became stars because of it. I'm not saying all young people have no taste, far from it it's just there's not enough of them to matter to us as live players and when it comes time to party they want to hear DJ Jazzy Jeff or whoever the heck he is.
Before some of you jump in and say there's plenty of different gigs around, true there is, the market is not monolithic it's just that's a very small part of the big picture.
I guess the real answer to the original question "what is a live performance?" is if you're on stage in front of people doing whatever, be it playing or being a DJ, it's a live performance and whatever goes into making it possible is irrelevant to that question. My original answer was strictly from my point of view as an old fart who can play some keyboards.
Bob
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Pat, Quote:
Speaking of purists... here in NC, bluegrass isn't considered real if the the band uses an electric bass or an acoustic-electric guitar.
Unfortunately, that attitude is still prevalent. I don't know if you remember when Newgrass Revival came on the bluegrass scene but those guys got a pretty cold reception at first primarily because of the electric bass, non-traditional songs, long hair and pot smoking tendencies. LOL. But they eventually gained a large following. Mainly because of all of the long haired pot smoking bluegrass fans. 
I wouldn't even CONSIDER using backing tracks for a bluegrass gig. You would either get booed off the stage or at least get a cold reception from many in the audience. That's because there's so much emphasis placed on the musical ability of each band member, similar to a jazz setting. (Not to mention a reluctance to accept anything but acoustic instruments).
But if I were playing pop, rock or country I wouldn't give it a second thought. Backing tracks for musicians is a good thing, IMHO, (although I'm a semi-purist when it comes to bluegrass. Electric bass is fine although acoustic electric guitar is a no no in most cases).
Those who use backing tracks should feel good about about giving the listeners a "fuller" sound.
It ain't karaoke. It's a musician using the tools available to enhance the overall sound. Especially if they create their own tracks. As most of us know, it takes some work to get a good backing track.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
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Forums66
Topics81,626
Posts735,220
Members38,522
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Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
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