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#164104 - 06/28/12 09:57 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4538
Loc: Florida
Quote:

You imply that there's some sort of concerted Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive world movement ideology behind all the changes. But it's more a given than a proven point. And (to my mind) you don't make a very compelling case.

For example:

They created a federal bureaucracy answerable to no one, with pay and retirement benefits triple those of the general populace.

The basic premise - federal bureaucracy is answerable to no one - is a large claim, and not really true. Bureaucracy by it's definition is answerable up the chain, and ultimately the folk at top are as well. It's slow and insulated, but it is accountable.

As for pay benefits, are you comparing apples and oranges? When you say "general populace", it doesn't sound like you're comparing the same benefits for the same type of jobs. Considering that we're in the middle of a massive recession, I suspect the comparison is even less balanced, given the level of unemployment.


They created an imperial presidency and made the Congress inconsequential.

Wikipedia says Imperial Presidency goes back to the '60s and Nixon, with another big push by Reagan. That's not exactly overnight, and those aren't generally seen as folk on your list.

Congress is many things, but not inconsequential.


They fostered the destruction of our manufacturing and agriculture bases.

The flight of capitalists based on cheap manufacture and labor isn't by folk on your list, either.


They permitted the invasion of our country by illegal aliens, and chastised anyone who objected.

I'd argue that the people who paid the illegal aliens bear the brunt of the blame here. Statistics says that's driven by the demand for cheap labor for agriculture. In any event, the people who support the idea that workers having some level of rights aren't generally Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive world movement.


They legalized and promoted the systematic murder of millions of the innocent unborn.

Clearly a hotbutton issue. The Jane Does in Roe vs. Wade now say they were reluctant and blame their lawyers. But I doubt the majority of abortion supporters were socialists. While Margaret Sanger was a socialist, and a believer in eugenics and racial superiority as well. But it's an unsupported leap to claim that of everyone who believed that abortion was a reproductive rights issue has the same set of values.

You claim a lot, but rely on the reader to agree with you, assuming they also lump everyone other than them as having the same set of Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive world ideology driving them.

That's just not the case. The argument is an emotional one, not a logical one.


"We revered Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, and all of those who gave us this great nation."

Why were these people "revered"? Most of what people believe about Washington is myth (although stripped of the myth, he's still pretty awesome). Jefferson was a brilliant thinker, but very much a flawed man. Lincoln is often admired because he "freed the slaves", but that's simply not true, and distorts what the American Civil War was about in the first place.

From the historical documents I've seen, I wouldn't agree. We've never been the sort of homogeneous group that school history texts seem to present us as. And history has never been quite as squeaky clean as we're often led to believe.


"But we weren't the morally, sexually, politically ambiguous creatures that now inhabit much of America."

I heard an story a while back on NPR, where people talked about this sort of thing. Invariably, they would cite the time when they were growing up. What was interesting is they they would talk to someone who was an adult at that time, who quickly debunked this idea that "things were so much better". They kept pushing back the the prior decade, and that before, but never did find such a time.

So - in my view - you paint with a wide brush of generalizations and rely on appealing to your reader's sense of nostalgia and shared moral outrage.

An it worries me, because in the process of simplifying the problem to a Marxist conspiracy of some sort, it overlooks assumptions, such as the existence of that mythical better time. It also feel it encourages a "tribe" mentality, which seems to be hardwired into us. It seems very easy to put someone in the "not our tribe" category.

We knew that actions had consequences, and that hard work would be rewarded."

The sad thing is, that's not necessarily true. Good people suffer, evil people live out lives of luxury. People take credit for the work of others, and sometimes people get away with murder.

I appreciate people standing up for what they believe is right. But having someone disagree with you doesn't make them a Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive.








I began a rebuttal to your points, but realized that it would be futile, and a waste of time. I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree.
I appreciate your reading the article and taking the time to comment.



Regards,


Bob
_________________________
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https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

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#164105 - 06/28/12 10:13 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: 90 dB]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 1841
Quote:

I began a rebuttal to your points, but realized that it would be futile, and a waste of time. I'm afraid we will just have to agree to disagree.



Astonishingly enough, that's exactly the same reason why I initially decided not to give a detailed response.

But you asked...

Quote:

I appreciate your reading the article and taking the time to comment.



And thanks for taking the time to read and consider my response!

I suspect any additional responses would just devolve, sort of like John's free verse. I'm sure there's some rhyming scheme embedded somewhere in his lyric - I'm just not clever enough to grok it.

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#164106 - 06/28/12 11:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
KeithS Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 874
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
I admire your well thought out views David. Its good to seee someone who can cut through the crap without getting down in the muck.
_________________________
Keith
BIAB 2018 Audiophile
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#164107 - 06/29/12 01:42 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: KeithS]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 1841
Thanks!

But... Since I called Pat out on his terminology, I'm now morally obligated to point out:

Quote:

Its good to seee someone who can cut through the crap without getting down in the muck.






Cheers!
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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#164108 - 06/29/12 08:25 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7479
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Man, there are a BUNCH of things about this discussion that bother me:

I'll preface my replies with the admission that I speak opinion. I'm not professing my point of view to be absolute truth. having said that...

IMO, most of the rebuttals above make the same logical error they claim to be correcting in the original article.

Quote:

to every complex problem, there is always a very simple solution -- and most of the time it is wrong;





that is, in itself, a simple summary of a complex problem. "WRONG" is the simple summary bandied about most often when there is no opposing argument offered, but the current argument is rejected.

The greatest affront to common sense (IMO) is to suggest that any conclusion that is not perfect is therefore wrong. Conservatives don't claim to have perfect answers. We shoot for RATIONAL answers. The definition of a rational decision is that it is not based on what makes us feel good, but rather it is the least-cost max-benefit solution

I didn't see ANY rebuttals above that offered anything more tangible than a rejection of the ideas offered because they aren't perfect. Nobody can win that game because no matter how much time is spent considering the cost and benefits, the opposition can just reject it without offering a better option.

(thoughts divided into separate posts for clarity of reading)

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#164109 - 06/29/12 08:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Kemmrich]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7479
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

However, the one thing that really bothers me was this one:

Quote:

"They started awarding trophies to every player in school team sports, winners and losers."



I don't why folks keep throwing that up as if it is destroying the competitive fiber of our youth -- 'cause it is crock of crap.

This sound-bite is tossed about by those who don't really pay attention any more to kids in sport. Kids know who wins and loses, winning trophies are for winners and the competitive spirit is alive and well. I am not sure how recognition for participation in an activity has somehow led to the downfall of our society.





OK, logical error 101: you turned this into a straw man argument by bypassing his real observation and replying as though he were making a completely different and less valid point. This is NOT about recognition for participation, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

If there has ever been a well-researched and documented topic, it is the topic of motivation. It has been so thoroughly examined by the scientific, business, academic, psychological and religious communities that I wonder if there is anything left to learn about it. When something is understood so well that applying the learned principles to animals yields highly predictable results, that tells me it is a fairly stable body of evidence.

And here is the key premise of motivation: "Behavior that is rewarded tends to be repeated"

If you reward excellence you get more excellence. If you reward mediocrity you get more mediocrity. Welfare states go one step beyond trewarding mediocrity... they reward a total absence of productivity and value adding to society. A society is the sum of its parts, and if the common denominator of a society is mediocrity (or worse, sorriness), then that society can not prosper for long.

The goals of equality and excellence are conflicting goals. The quest for equality would put EVERYBODY in the olympics... the quest for excellence rewards only those who have diligently trained and shown themselves to have superior ability

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#164110 - 06/29/12 08:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7479
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

I hope everyone with good sense supports you publicly.
All that's necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do and say nothing.





David, I am absolutely dumbfounded that you would object to this statement! I presume you object because you disagree with the original article.. but my statement is generic. The very fact that you decided not to remain silent when you disagreed is implied agreement with my statement. You chose to publicly take a position rather than be annoyed and pass on by. That's all my statement means... yet you disagreed with it then turned around and did what I said immediately after disapproving of it.

logical error 101: refuting an opposing argument with exactly the same logic, but in the opposite direction.

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#164111 - 06/29/12 09:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7479
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

You imply that there's some sort of concerted Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive world movement ideology behind all the changes. But it's more a given than a proven point. And (to my mind) you don't make a very compelling case.




OK, apparently this is a reference to the snippet on communist goals that was presented to congress in the 60s. (Did you follow the link and read it?)

David, you dismiss the assertions without making ANY case, let alone a compelling one.

IMO, there are several compelling reasons to give credibility to that list of communist goals:

1) there's plenty of old news footage of communist leaders boldly saying that they will undermine the USA without ever firing a shot. Why would they make such an assertion? How could it even happen? Its not a rational thing to say unless there is a plan in place to MAKE it happen.

2) there are also plenty of interviews available online (and who knows what is available in classified documents) of defectors who outlined in detail the strategy for undermining the capitalist world. Here is one such interview, and it corroborates perfectly with the aforementioned list of goals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuQmaupl5Gk

3) the list of communist goals is a highly specific set of predictions, none of which were true when the list was presented to congress, and all of which are true today. The statistical likelihood of that many specific things coming to pass exactly as stated (but without a concerted plan) is so low that its unimaginable that it could "just work out that way"

4) there are two old sayings (for those who can hear conventional wisdom without automatically disagreeing with it)... one of which says "when a man's words don't line up with his actions... believe the actions"

The other one says "Past performance is the best indicator of future performance"

The statistical likelihood of a president ACCIDENTALLY surrounding himself with people who have well documented histories of affection for socialism... well, its just not likely at all. They may say with their mouths "we're not socialists" but their history and actions say otherwise

In Star Wars Obi Wan waved his hand in front of the stormtroopers and said "These aren't the droids you're looking for", and the storm troopers repeated the mantra and let them go. Obi Wan turned to the others and said "It only works on people with weak minds"


I consider the phrase "we're not socialists " to be such a political mantra, repeated by those who are willing to believe what feels good

My opinion... your mileage may vary (FWIW, political mantras abound on both sides of the aisle... free thinkers don't typically subscribe to anybody's party line)

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#164112 - 06/29/12 09:36 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Pat Marr]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3891
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:

before we get a flame war going here, I'd just like to say that intelligent people should be able to express highly volatile ideas peaceably and without resorting to character assassination.

The old expression is that "He who runs out of arguments strikes first", so resorting to personal attacks in forum discussion is generally regarded as an admission of ideological defeat.

In my experience you can get away with almost any statement in discussions of this sort, as long as you say it in a way that preserves the dignity of those on the other side of the discussion. Failing to do that pretty much always leads to a fight rather than a discussion.




RIGHT ON-O-METER
0_____________/100

_________________________
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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#164113 - 06/29/12 12:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Pat Marr]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 1841
Quote:

David, I am absolutely dumbfounded that you would object to this statement!



Sorry, I thought I had been clear by highlighting particular words. I'm commenting on the language you use here.

When you write "I hope everyone with good sense supports you publicly.", the implication is that people who don't support the article don't have good sense.

Second, by invoking the "evil to prevail" quote, you're again using emotional language. The implication is that people who may not agree with particular things are supporting evil.

So it's not a statement on the article, but rather a comment that you appear to be making a value judgement against anyone who disagrees with the article.

It thought it was ironic that you'd start by explaining that people should be polite in discussing the article, yet immediately include those tactics yourself.
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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#164114 - 06/29/12 12:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: 90 dB]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4037
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

That said, I still submit that a 44% difference in pay and benefits is egregious. Actually, it's closer to 50%, or twice that of the private sector.




Are you possiblty just jealous that you are not among them and thus just speak angrily out of envy for someone else's success?

How many poor people put down athletes and begrudge them the large salaries? Well, there are 30 teams in the NBA. Each of those 30 teams has ONE starting center. That means that there are only 30 of that job available for competition. 30 men in the entire male work force are qualified for those jobs. Is that not a specialized position? 30 out of how many million in the work force?

So use that analogy. How many doctors are there? How many lawyers? How many Supreme Court Justices? How many factory workers, gas pumpers and convenience store clerks? Does normal logic not say that 1 of those 30 people who qualify to start at center in the NBA make more money than the kid who sells you the slurpy at 7-11?

Don't be jealous because you are a "have not". Work harder and become a "have". Or grow taller.....
_________________________
If you say "I can't" ..... I'm pretty sure you won't.

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#164115 - 06/29/12 01:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4037
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Mods, it is really time to pull this post. This post was made by a wannabe journalist in an attempt to drive traffic to a site where I suspect he gets paid by the hit and needed hits.

This is a MUSIC forum, whether it is called "Off Topic" or not, the user guidelines specifically say that we are not to discuss politics or religion.

Time to pull it before there is gunfire between the conservatives and the liberals.
_________________________
If you say "I can't" ..... I'm pretty sure you won't.

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#164116 - 06/29/12 01:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4538
Loc: Florida
Quote:

Quote:

That said, I still submit that a 44% difference in pay and benefits is egregious. Actually, it's closer to 50%, or twice that of the private sector.




Are you possiblty just jealous that you are not among them and thus just speak angrily out of envy for someone else's success?

How many poor people put down athletes and begrudge them the large salaries? Well, there are 30 teams in the NBA. Each of those 30 teams has ONE starting center. That means that there are only 30 of that job available for competition. 30 men in the entire male work force are qualified for those jobs. Is that not a specialized position? 30 out of how many million in the work force?

So use that analogy. How many doctors are there? How many lawyers? How many Supreme Court Justices? How many factory workers, gas pumpers and convenience store clerks? Does normal logic not say that 1 of those 30 people who qualify to start at center in the NBA make more money than the kid who sells you the slurpy at 7-11?

Don't be jealous because you are a "have not". Work harder and become a "have". Or grow taller.....








No, Eddie, I'm not at all jealous. I believe that a person should make as much money as he/she can in a competitive workforce. Public sector jobs are not a competitive workforce.

And I can't grow taller. I'm shrinking daily.



Regards,

Bob
_________________________
Dyslectics Untie!


https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

https://soundcloud.com/90-db



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#164117 - 06/29/12 01:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
rsdean Offline
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Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 2815
Loc: New York
The "Article" is simply hilarious... the thread is even better. LOL!
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#164118 - 06/29/12 01:19 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
90 dB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4538
Loc: Florida
Quote:

Mods, it is really time to pull this post. This post was made by a wannabe journalist in an attempt to drive traffic to a site where I suspect he gets paid by the hit and needed hits.

This is a MUSIC forum, whether it is called "Off Topic" or not, the user guidelines specifically say that we are not to discuss politics or religion.

Time to pull it before there is gunfire between the conservatives and the liberals.







Actually, Eddie, I am a journalist. Have been for years. There was no attempt to “drive traffic” anywhere, and no monetary motive. You may “suspect” that I get paid by the hits, but the fact is that this particular publication does NOT PAY for their content.

As for the user guidelines, they say nothing of the sort. They only refer to keeping the discussions “Music Related”, and in that sense, I have violated the guidelines. I neglected to read them carefully, just as you have.
_________________________
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https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

https://soundcloud.com/90-db



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