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#164109 - 06/29/12 08:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Kemmrich]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7498
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

However, the one thing that really bothers me was this one:

Quote:

"They started awarding trophies to every player in school team sports, winners and losers."



I don't why folks keep throwing that up as if it is destroying the competitive fiber of our youth -- 'cause it is crock of crap.

This sound-bite is tossed about by those who don't really pay attention any more to kids in sport. Kids know who wins and loses, winning trophies are for winners and the competitive spirit is alive and well. I am not sure how recognition for participation in an activity has somehow led to the downfall of our society.





OK, logical error 101: you turned this into a straw man argument by bypassing his real observation and replying as though he were making a completely different and less valid point. This is NOT about recognition for participation, and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

If there has ever been a well-researched and documented topic, it is the topic of motivation. It has been so thoroughly examined by the scientific, business, academic, psychological and religious communities that I wonder if there is anything left to learn about it. When something is understood so well that applying the learned principles to animals yields highly predictable results, that tells me it is a fairly stable body of evidence.

And here is the key premise of motivation: "Behavior that is rewarded tends to be repeated"

If you reward excellence you get more excellence. If you reward mediocrity you get more mediocrity. Welfare states go one step beyond trewarding mediocrity... they reward a total absence of productivity and value adding to society. A society is the sum of its parts, and if the common denominator of a society is mediocrity (or worse, sorriness), then that society can not prosper for long.

The goals of equality and excellence are conflicting goals. The quest for equality would put EVERYBODY in the olympics... the quest for excellence rewards only those who have diligently trained and shown themselves to have superior ability

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#164110 - 06/29/12 08:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7498
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

I hope everyone with good sense supports you publicly.
All that's necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do and say nothing.





David, I am absolutely dumbfounded that you would object to this statement! I presume you object because you disagree with the original article.. but my statement is generic. The very fact that you decided not to remain silent when you disagreed is implied agreement with my statement. You chose to publicly take a position rather than be annoyed and pass on by. That's all my statement means... yet you disagreed with it then turned around and did what I said immediately after disapproving of it.

logical error 101: refuting an opposing argument with exactly the same logic, but in the opposite direction.

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#164111 - 06/29/12 09:23 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7498
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

You imply that there's some sort of concerted Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive world movement ideology behind all the changes. But it's more a given than a proven point. And (to my mind) you don't make a very compelling case.




OK, apparently this is a reference to the snippet on communist goals that was presented to congress in the 60s. (Did you follow the link and read it?)

David, you dismiss the assertions without making ANY case, let alone a compelling one.

IMO, there are several compelling reasons to give credibility to that list of communist goals:

1) there's plenty of old news footage of communist leaders boldly saying that they will undermine the USA without ever firing a shot. Why would they make such an assertion? How could it even happen? Its not a rational thing to say unless there is a plan in place to MAKE it happen.

2) there are also plenty of interviews available online (and who knows what is available in classified documents) of defectors who outlined in detail the strategy for undermining the capitalist world. Here is one such interview, and it corroborates perfectly with the aforementioned list of goals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuQmaupl5Gk

3) the list of communist goals is a highly specific set of predictions, none of which were true when the list was presented to congress, and all of which are true today. The statistical likelihood of that many specific things coming to pass exactly as stated (but without a concerted plan) is so low that its unimaginable that it could "just work out that way"

4) there are two old sayings (for those who can hear conventional wisdom without automatically disagreeing with it)... one of which says "when a man's words don't line up with his actions... believe the actions"

The other one says "Past performance is the best indicator of future performance"

The statistical likelihood of a president ACCIDENTALLY surrounding himself with people who have well documented histories of affection for socialism... well, its just not likely at all. They may say with their mouths "we're not socialists" but their history and actions say otherwise

In Star Wars Obi Wan waved his hand in front of the stormtroopers and said "These aren't the droids you're looking for", and the storm troopers repeated the mantra and let them go. Obi Wan turned to the others and said "It only works on people with weak minds"


I consider the phrase "we're not socialists " to be such a political mantra, repeated by those who are willing to believe what feels good

My opinion... your mileage may vary (FWIW, political mantras abound on both sides of the aisle... free thinkers don't typically subscribe to anybody's party line)

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#164112 - 06/29/12 09:36 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Pat Marr]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3899
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Quote:

before we get a flame war going here, I'd just like to say that intelligent people should be able to express highly volatile ideas peaceably and without resorting to character assassination.

The old expression is that "He who runs out of arguments strikes first", so resorting to personal attacks in forum discussion is generally regarded as an admission of ideological defeat.

In my experience you can get away with almost any statement in discussions of this sort, as long as you say it in a way that preserves the dignity of those on the other side of the discussion. Failing to do that pretty much always leads to a fight rather than a discussion.




RIGHT ON-O-METER
0_____________/100

_________________________
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."

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#164113 - 06/29/12 12:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Pat Marr]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Sacramento, California
Quote:

David, I am absolutely dumbfounded that you would object to this statement!



Sorry, I thought I had been clear by highlighting particular words. I'm commenting on the language you use here.

When you write "I hope everyone with good sense supports you publicly.", the implication is that people who don't support the article don't have good sense.

Second, by invoking the "evil to prevail" quote, you're again using emotional language. The implication is that people who may not agree with particular things are supporting evil.

So it's not a statement on the article, but rather a comment that you appear to be making a value judgement against anyone who disagrees with the article.

It thought it was ironic that you'd start by explaining that people should be polite in discussing the article, yet immediately include those tactics yourself.
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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#164114 - 06/29/12 12:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: 90 dB]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4282
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

That said, I still submit that a 44% difference in pay and benefits is egregious. Actually, it's closer to 50%, or twice that of the private sector.




Are you possiblty just jealous that you are not among them and thus just speak angrily out of envy for someone else's success?

How many poor people put down athletes and begrudge them the large salaries? Well, there are 30 teams in the NBA. Each of those 30 teams has ONE starting center. That means that there are only 30 of that job available for competition. 30 men in the entire male work force are qualified for those jobs. Is that not a specialized position? 30 out of how many million in the work force?

So use that analogy. How many doctors are there? How many lawyers? How many Supreme Court Justices? How many factory workers, gas pumpers and convenience store clerks? Does normal logic not say that 1 of those 30 people who qualify to start at center in the NBA make more money than the kid who sells you the slurpy at 7-11?

Don't be jealous because you are a "have not". Work harder and become a "have". Or grow taller.....
_________________________
Even my imaginary friends don't talk to me.

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#164115 - 06/29/12 01:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Posts: 4282
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Mods, it is really time to pull this post. This post was made by a wannabe journalist in an attempt to drive traffic to a site where I suspect he gets paid by the hit and needed hits.

This is a MUSIC forum, whether it is called "Off Topic" or not, the user guidelines specifically say that we are not to discuss politics or religion.

Time to pull it before there is gunfire between the conservatives and the liberals.
_________________________
Even my imaginary friends don't talk to me.

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#164116 - 06/29/12 01:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4614
Loc: Florida
Quote:

Quote:

That said, I still submit that a 44% difference in pay and benefits is egregious. Actually, it's closer to 50%, or twice that of the private sector.




Are you possiblty just jealous that you are not among them and thus just speak angrily out of envy for someone else's success?

How many poor people put down athletes and begrudge them the large salaries? Well, there are 30 teams in the NBA. Each of those 30 teams has ONE starting center. That means that there are only 30 of that job available for competition. 30 men in the entire male work force are qualified for those jobs. Is that not a specialized position? 30 out of how many million in the work force?

So use that analogy. How many doctors are there? How many lawyers? How many Supreme Court Justices? How many factory workers, gas pumpers and convenience store clerks? Does normal logic not say that 1 of those 30 people who qualify to start at center in the NBA make more money than the kid who sells you the slurpy at 7-11?

Don't be jealous because you are a "have not". Work harder and become a "have". Or grow taller.....








No, Eddie, I'm not at all jealous. I believe that a person should make as much money as he/she can in a competitive workforce. Public sector jobs are not a competitive workforce.

And I can't grow taller. I'm shrinking daily.



Regards,

Bob
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#164117 - 06/29/12 01:11 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
rsdean Offline
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Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 3094
Loc: Woodstock, NY
The "Article" is simply hilarious... the thread is even better. LOL!
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#164118 - 06/29/12 01:19 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4614
Loc: Florida
Quote:

Mods, it is really time to pull this post. This post was made by a wannabe journalist in an attempt to drive traffic to a site where I suspect he gets paid by the hit and needed hits.

This is a MUSIC forum, whether it is called "Off Topic" or not, the user guidelines specifically say that we are not to discuss politics or religion.

Time to pull it before there is gunfire between the conservatives and the liberals.







Actually, Eddie, I am a journalist. Have been for years. There was no attempt to “drive traffic” anywhere, and no monetary motive. You may “suspect” that I get paid by the hits, but the fact is that this particular publication does NOT PAY for their content.

As for the user guidelines, they say nothing of the sort. They only refer to keeping the discussions “Music Related”, and in that sense, I have violated the guidelines. I neglected to read them carefully, just as you have.
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#164119 - 06/29/12 01:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: rsdean]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4614
Loc: Florida
Quote:

The "Article" is simply hilarious... the thread is even better. LOL!







Another quarter heard from. Of course, no real rebuttal, just hit and run.
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#164120 - 06/29/12 01:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Pat Marr]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Sacramento, California
Quote:

David, you dismiss the assertions without making ANY case, let alone a compelling one.



I'm not trying to make a compelling case. There's way too much material in the article to even begin with that.

I'm just noting that - for me - the article fails to make a compelling case. Instead, it appears to primarily rely on what the reader already believes to be true, and appeals to emotion and nostalgia.

That's OK, because that's not really the goal of the article. It's not written to change anyone's mind - it's a motivational speech that's preaching to the choir. There's a place for that.

I'm just not in that target demographic.
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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#164121 - 06/29/12 01:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Registered: 04/08/11
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Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
9. All of the forums except for the Off Topic forum are for discussions of PG Music products only. The Off Topic forum is used for MUSIC-RELATED discussions that aren't about PG Music products. Please keep all your posts as constructive as possible.


Defense rests.
_________________________
Even my imaginary friends don't talk to me.

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#164122 - 06/29/12 01:54 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: eddie1261]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4614
Loc: Florida
Quote:

9. All of the forums except for the Off Topic forum are for discussions of PG Music products only. The Off Topic forum is used for MUSIC-RELATED discussions that aren't about PG Music products. Please keep all your posts as constructive as possible.


Defense rests.







What you actually said was: "...the user guidelines specifically say that we are not to discuss politics or religion."


Actually, they don't. Which is it?
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#164123 - 06/29/12 02:00 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: 90 dB]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4614
Loc: Florida
I would like to apologize to the Mods and the forums members for violating the guidelines by posting a political thread.

Now everyone can return to telling each other how great their music is.
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#164124 - 06/29/12 02:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: 90 dB]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Sacramento, California
Oh, man!

I had just pulled out my thesaurus to see if I could come up with a clever rhyme with Marxist/communist/socialist/progressive world movement ideology! Combined with John's Canuckistan chorus, I figured it to be the next "Harper Valley PTA"...

Edit: Hrm... If only "progressivist" were a word, I'd have the perfecta trifecta (quadfecta?) of "isty" rhymes.

Edit of Edit: Ooops! I spoke to soon!.

Key of G (the most liberal of all keys)

There once was a Marxist from Canukistan
Who found a topic which PG Music would surely ban
Blaming the communist collective
And the world movement progressive
On a thread that far too many pages ran...


OK, does it now comply with guidelines?


Edited by dcuny (06/29/12 02:43 PM)

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#164125 - 06/29/12 04:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
sinbad Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 684
Loc: Germany
Amen
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#164126 - 06/30/12 01:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: dcuny]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7498
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Quote:

David, I am absolutely dumbfounded that you would object to this statement!



Sorry, I thought I had been clear by highlighting particular words. I'm commenting on the language you use here.

When you write "I hope everyone with good sense supports you publicly.", the implication is that people who don't support the article don't have good sense.





Well.. my intent was not what you are inferring. That comment was mostly a reiteration of the original article, which I will summarize briefly like this: if people don't speak up and participate in the events that affect them, then THEY are the architects of their own dilemma... they can't blame anybody else. I think it is reasonably correct to summarize the article in that way.

I assume you are offended because you took it personally. I submit, however, that trying to understand complex discussions by assuming that it is about you will almost always lead to conclusions that have nothing to do with the real topic... (as this thread testifies.)

Quote:

So it's not a statement on the article, but rather a comment that you appear to be making a value judgement against anyone who disagrees with the article.




David, I'm not trying to attack you. I like you and I respect your opinion on many things. You are a value adding contributor to the forum and you are clearly an intelligent guy. But IMO, to be offended because someone makes a value judgment is the functional equivalent of being offended because one of the kids didn't get an A on the test. In both cases somebody is getting validated without having to face a challenge successfully. From where I stand, until an idea can be defended rationally, it deserves to be valued less than an idea that is defensible. Would you actually disagree with that??

All things are not equal, and therefore value judments are necessary. The fact that you opposed the article is proof that you yourself made a value judgment. You heard his point of view, and valued it less than you value yours, so you spoke up. That's normal and its a good thing! Analyzing pros and cons makes us think.

Discussion is good. I find it very disturbing that so many people gang up on anyone who wants to discuss and dissect ideas. That is the first step in groupthink. Yet the evidence in this thread indicates that people would rather silence those with a different opinion than to communicate their differences. I believe the reason is because they can't defend their position, but they don't want to look too closely at the Baby Ruth they're eating for fear it might be something else.

Quote:

It thought it was ironic that you'd start by explaining that people should be polite in discussing the article, yet immediately include those tactics yourself.




There is a big difference between attacking the person and attacking the idea. Not once did I attack you or anybody else. All I did was point out what I consider to be inconsistencies or fallacious reasoning. Separating key points from peripheral points is a part of rational thinking

But, I accept your observation and I apologize if I've offended you. I see you as a good person, and I have no attitude toward you at all.

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#164127 - 06/30/12 01:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: rsdean]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7498
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

The "Article" is simply hilarious... the thread is even better. LOL!




excellent! I like to hear opposing points of view! Sitting in a room full of people who think exactly as I do is boring

Is there a particular point you want to logically refute? If so, I am willing to consider your thoughts.

In my experience, people who arrive at their conclusions via the examination of evidence and the exploration of ideas can support their points of view. Those who just accept the opinions of others tend to offer ridicule without substantive points to back it up.

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#164128 - 06/30/12 05:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Article [Re: Pat Marr]
dcuny Offline
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 2083
Loc: Sacramento, California
Quote:

I assume you are offended because you took it personally.



No personal offense was taken, but thanks.

It seems basic in our nature to divide people into "us" and "them."

When I was a kid, Saturday was a terrible time to be watching television. The local UHF station would show reruns of programs like "The Invaders", roller derby, "big time" wrestling... Basically, filler.

The programming included "The World at War", what seemed to me (as a young child) to be a many, many part documentary which included a lot of footage from WWII. It certainly wasn't "Hogan's Heroes."

One particularly memorable clip of film was of bulldozers pushing stacks and stacks of corpses into trenches. Suddenly, this wasn't some long-ago event of history. Those had been people who's only misfortune was that they'd been the "others".

So when I hear people talk about "us" and "them", this is what I think of.

I wish I could say that I've made the world somehow a place where that's harder to happen, but I don't think that's that case.

Peace.
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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