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#167018 - 07/28/12 09:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: silvertones]
Mac Offline
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Look, Richard's already been presented with audio where he says he cannot hear these notes in question -- and he needs to hear them.

*Funds are limited and he already has this Bass Amp.

*Time for the "run what ya brung" mentality.

*With careful tweaking and use of the gray matter between the ears, there is no reason why the use of an electronic crossover and his Bass amp, which has a pair of RCA inpouts for Tape or other Line Level signal already on it, summed to mono, could not be pressed into service.

Richard is savvy enough to realize all the implications regarding monitoring issues.

And there is no reason why such a setup would disallow being able to mix or master either.

After all, a quick check of any source material with the sub turned off or completely down would solve any of those kind of problems.

Said it before, will say it again, if you KNOW YOUR MONITORS from doing much Reference Listening to your Reference Recordings, you can turn out decent recordings using them.

Finally, this is what Richard WANTS TO DO.

That's enough fer me.


--Mac
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#167019 - 07/28/12 09:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
eddie1261 Offline
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Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz, and then it's all feel? So if he is good to 50, he is missing some low end. Adding in budget though, that makes a difference. A crossover and separate power amps starts adding up. Boxes with crossovers sounds like the answer, though room size can dictate what you need. I have not played "compact" ever in my life, so I don't know. The last band I was in had 18" subs, Peavey 3020 combo cabinets and tweeters on top of that, and each stack was 6 feet tall. We ran our own crossover and 3 stereo power amps. (I loved running the PA in stereo. Some of my string patches had panning built in and to hear the sound pan back and forth through the fronts..... loved it.)

Again comes down to your preference and where you play. We couldn't have played 90% of our rooms with a compact system. Your application may be different. In our 30s and 40s we played in a different era when there were music clubs. Now it's restaurants that have music after dinner and won't let you set up until 8pm. (But start promptly at 9!!!) Thus the "PA on a pole" era.... Geeze, we ran 1000w in our MONITORS!
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#167020 - 07/28/12 10:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: eddie1261]
Ryszard Offline
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Below is a link to the music that raised the issue. I believe the low freqs will challenge almost everyone's systems. The dominant bass line begins at 0:14 and repeats until the ultralow section begins at 1:57 and does a disappearing act (for me) at 2:06. This repeats before the end. I know the bass is still there--I asked the composer.

I'm pretty sure Scott will like this. Not everyone will. It's described as "alternative ambient electronic with raw guitar." I don't know about the raw part, or guitar, for that matter. I thought it was all electronic. I kind of major in this stuff, so I really do need to hear the low end.

"Crystalis" by Matthew Peterson. Created in Reason 2.5(!).
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#167021 - 07/28/12 10:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Ryszard]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
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Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Looking around the net I found a 20 hz test tone. My speakers, Yorkville Elites play this fine and I can hear it. My Bose is almost there, it's a stretch to hear it at all.

That said I loose my hearing at around 2700 as it cuts off. 3000 hz is never heard by me, so that's out. Actually on a piano the last 12 white notes are impossible to hear.

Some of the black notes on the piano I can't either, they seem to be the top ones.

So at 20HZ my Behringer powered mixer and speaker cabinets that are too heavy to move,work OK. The Bose, not quite. At the top end both can make tones I cannot hear.
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#167022 - 08/02/12 04:42 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: eddie1261]
jazzmammal Online   content
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Quote:

Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz




Who's ears, Eddie? A healthy 16 year old can hear 20K maybe and it's all downhill every year from there. I guarantee you right now, where you sit you can't hear above 9K maybe 10K and the way you talk about high powered systems in years past you may be cut off around 6 or 7K.

I agree with both sides here. On the one hand I think it's kind of silly but Richard is a long time valued forum member and Mac is helping him. Good enough for me.

Now for my somewhat related question. I've been looking for a small powered sub to go with my EV 12" powered monitors that I use in stereo for my keyboard on smaller gigs. For larger gigs I have a pair of 15" Eons that I power with a 500W power amp and mixer. The EV's sound great but one time the bass player was late at the restaurant gig and I was asked to cover some bass and even though I kept it down I promptly blew out one of the woofers for $100. All I need is maybe 150-200W with a 10 or at the most 12" sub. In the pro audio world all there is are the big 1000W 15" and 18" thunder thumpers. EV just came out with a 700W 12" that only weighs 46 pounds and costs $600 and the new Yamaha DXR 12" is 1100W and $800. Half that capability and cost would be more than enough. Is it possible a $300 10-12" consumer sub would work for this? In my experience consumer stuff at a gig lasts maybe 10 seconds. I'm even thinking of buying a 300W plate amp from parts express, getting a 10" prebuilt sub box from Pep Boys and put a good Emminence driver in it. All the parts for that would still be the same $300. Or, are you guys are thinking what I'm thinking and just stick to pro audio? Remember all I'm talking here is some bass reinforcement for small gigs where my monitors just won't quite cut it. That 12" EV sub has a SPL rating of 126db for pete's sake.

Bob
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#167023 - 08/02/12 04:52 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: jazzmammal]
Mac Offline
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Check out the Bazookas, Bob. Yes, I know they are meant for use in cars, but they also can make for a nice affordable, portable subwoofer for use with Band in a Box and keyboards, etc.


--Mac
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#167024 - 08/02/12 06:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
jazzmammal Online   content
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Man, I should have you on speed dial. The top Bazooka is Class D 200W 10" with variable crossover of 60-250.
Sounds perfect for what I need.

Bob
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#167025 - 08/02/12 06:35 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
rockstar_not Offline
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Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
As important as whether to go consumer or pro audio, is where you will place the sub. Unless you have a speaker delay unit, for live sound reinforcement you better be able to geographically align that sub(s) with your mains. Otherwise, you can suck the bass end right out of things due to phase cancellation of the sub against the lows generated by your mains, and/or make sure that you cross over so that you don't get the issue - I still like to geographically align PA subs with mains when I can.

The nice thing about consumer and even pro-level powered subwoofers is that they nearly always have the cross-over in the sub cabinet. Run the crossed-over outlets to your mains. Run your full-range signal to the sub cabinet, dial in the cross-over frequency by ear.

Bob, in your DIY kit, I didn't see you include the cost of the amp and crossover.

The Bazooka still needs a crossed-over signal to it and DC power being sent to it - from what I recall, even the amped version.

While I don't often disagree with Mac, I think the recommendation of the bazooka is a bit of a wild goose chase for gigging using A/C power.

List of items that you would need to have on hand in addition to the Bazooka sourced for $199 at WalMart:

1. Crossover network, to make sure you don't phase cancel your existing mains with the bazooka output. The bazooka has a fixed 85 Hz upper cutoff.
1a. Cabling for the cross over.
2. DC power source to power the amp in the bazooka. Unless you run a cable out to your battery in the car, or bring along a DC power source, you need 12 Volts from somewhere. You might have a DC source that can handle the current draw, you might not. Gotta get it into the room.
3. Some way to keep the thing from rolling on the floor

Regarding a consumer-grade sub for gigging: The main issue I see with using a consumer powered sub for gigging is the connectors. Most of them are going to have spring-clip type connectors - not designed for gigging. For Ryszard's use, the spring clips are no issue - he's not gigging the thing.

Also, consumer powered sub cases won't be designed for knock-around transport - the bazooka case is probably better for that. Even better is to just shop for the smallest powered PA sub you can find on Craigslist.

I'd shop for one of these babies used: http://www.mackie.com/products/hd1501/
or something like it.

On the cheap, go for Behringer. Here's one that's complete for under $500 with all you would need, crossed over XLR outs and all the power you would ever need, phase switch, etc.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B1500DPRO/

There is appeal to DIY, but when it costs more and less likely to solve your issue, sometimes it pays to buy the right tool for the job.

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#167026 - 08/02/12 06:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: rockstar_not]
rockstar_not Offline
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@jazzmammal - I was typing while you wrote your response. See the list of what else you have to buy to make that combo work with your existing mains.

@Mac - sorry to disagree so blatantly, but this is coming from a guy who loves bazookas for vehicle use - bought one from Crutchfield in the late 80's and loved the boom it gave my Dodge Omni. Unless you are a hobbyist with a spare AC-DC power supply, the right crossover setup, etc - IMO it's just not an even close to ideal solution for either Ryszard nor jazzmammal's very different purposes.

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#167027 - 08/02/12 06:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: rockstar_not]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
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Yes, he got carried away and looked at one of the *amplified* Bazookas.

NO, not a good thing for stage work, as you would need an extremely capable 13.8VDC power supply to power the thing.

However, one of the UNamplified Bazookas, like one with the built in crossover, designed to work at speaker level, or one designed to be used with a separate amplifier and electronic crossover would work, I've done it.


--Mac
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#167028 - 08/02/12 08:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
jazzmammal Online   content
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Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
I threw that reply out just as I had to take a conference call with the IRS and a client. That only took about an hour. Then I came to the same conclusion you guys did. In addition most car audio subs need a sub out feed from the main amp don't they? The pro audio subs have a stereo in and stereo outs. I can't feed a sub with the line outs from my EV monitors, that defeats the purpose. The signal path has to go the other way, sub first, then to the EV's. And yes, I need a powered sub not passive.

Scott, the DIY plate amp includes the stereo ins/outs so it accepts the signal first then feeds it back to the monitors. That's not a bad deal, I found a dual 10" enclosure for $39. Just cut out a hole for the plate amp, install two decent drivers and I'm good to go. That may be the best thing.

It would still be cool to have both you and Mac on my speed dial.

Bob
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#167029 - 08/02/12 09:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: jazzmammal]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Ha, Yanks argue about bazookas. Wow. Rocket launchers are next!!!

Every 'clubhouse' in Canada wants 2. Of each. The ones with the concrete walls and security cams.
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#167030 - 08/03/12 07:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: John Conley]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Bazooka is so '40s.

LAWS Rocket is so '80s...

Smart Bullet.

Yeah.


--Mac
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#167031 - 08/03/12 09:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Rail gun, baby! Twenty-two bazillion rounds per minute! Only prob is keeping it loaded.

BTW, I have contacted a guy about his craigslist ad for a Behringer B2092A Truth powered sub. It's more than I want to pay and I have no idea where I'll put it, but it was made specifically for my mains. If I don't get that I'll go the crossover and amp route.
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#167032 - 08/03/12 06:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: jazzmammal]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18664
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Quote:



It would still be cool to have both you and Mac on my speed dial.

Bob




It's not as fun as you think, 'cause then they have you on speed dial too...


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PG Music News
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#TechTipTuesday - Band-in-a-Box® Patch Updates

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Patch updates are released frequently, and are created by our development team to fix any reported bugs, tweak existing features within the program, update demos and other files as needed, and more!

To find out which version of the program you have, visit Help | About Band-in-a-Box within the program. You will see the full version number listing as:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2018 (512)

The number in parentheses is the build number. As you can see, my Band-in-a-Box is up to date and will continue to stay that way because I've selected "Automatically check for updates every 7 days" within the Help | Check for Updates.... option (you can set the number of days to a different number). This window will also look to see if you're version is up to date, so you don't technically have to visit http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm if you didn't want to!

Once you've installed your patch update (make sure the program is closed when you're doing this), give it another try - if you are still experiencing the same issue you can report it by contacting us directly, or you can post your result to the Forum thread that also announces the patch update, like our recent Band-in-a-Box 2018 Build 512 Update (Feb 15) post.

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RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is Here!

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is here! PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 includes many new features and enhancements:

Windows Audio (WASAPI) driver support. This allows for low latency audio recording/playback without requiring ASIO. Note that this supports 1 stereo input plus 1 stereo output at a time. For multiple inputs/outputs, you should continue to use either MME or ASIO.

ABC Notation format support. You can save a track of notation in a popular ASCII text format to import into other programs, or you can paste this format into a user forum as a way of sending the track (usually the melody and chord symbols) to other users without having to attach a file.

The built-in Audio Chord Wizard detection in the Chords window automatically detects the chords of the song, based on the audio data from all non-muted audio tracks. This works similar to the standalone Audio Chord Wizard, except that it uses the current bar lines of the existing song.

Notation Enhancements:
-X/8 time signature support. This is a special method of displaying 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 time signatures in the Notation window.
-The Duplicate previous chord in notation right-click menu lets you quickly duplicate the previous chord (group of notes on same peg) without having to reenter it.
-Delete highlighted notes in notation right-click menu lets you delete all highlighted notes.
-Delete all notes on this peg in notation right-click menu lets you delete all notes on the nearest peg that was clicked on.
-You can now enter Section Numbers. Previously, you could enter letters (A-Z) only, but now you can also enter numbers (1-9).

...a full list of the new features in PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is available at http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.features.htm

http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm

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