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#167018 - 07/28/12 09:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: silvertones]
Mac Offline
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Look, Richard's already been presented with audio where he says he cannot hear these notes in question -- and he needs to hear them.

*Funds are limited and he already has this Bass Amp.

*Time for the "run what ya brung" mentality.

*With careful tweaking and use of the gray matter between the ears, there is no reason why the use of an electronic crossover and his Bass amp, which has a pair of RCA inpouts for Tape or other Line Level signal already on it, summed to mono, could not be pressed into service.

Richard is savvy enough to realize all the implications regarding monitoring issues.

And there is no reason why such a setup would disallow being able to mix or master either.

After all, a quick check of any source material with the sub turned off or completely down would solve any of those kind of problems.

Said it before, will say it again, if you KNOW YOUR MONITORS from doing much Reference Listening to your Reference Recordings, you can turn out decent recordings using them.

Finally, this is what Richard WANTS TO DO.

That's enough fer me.


--Mac
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#167019 - 07/28/12 09:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
eddie1261 Online   content
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Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz, and then it's all feel? So if he is good to 50, he is missing some low end. Adding in budget though, that makes a difference. A crossover and separate power amps starts adding up. Boxes with crossovers sounds like the answer, though room size can dictate what you need. I have not played "compact" ever in my life, so I don't know. The last band I was in had 18" subs, Peavey 3020 combo cabinets and tweeters on top of that, and each stack was 6 feet tall. We ran our own crossover and 3 stereo power amps. (I loved running the PA in stereo. Some of my string patches had panning built in and to hear the sound pan back and forth through the fronts..... loved it.)

Again comes down to your preference and where you play. We couldn't have played 90% of our rooms with a compact system. Your application may be different. In our 30s and 40s we played in a different era when there were music clubs. Now it's restaurants that have music after dinner and won't let you set up until 8pm. (But start promptly at 9!!!) Thus the "PA on a pole" era.... Geeze, we ran 1000w in our MONITORS!
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#167020 - 07/28/12 10:28 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: eddie1261]
Ryszard Offline
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Below is a link to the music that raised the issue. I believe the low freqs will challenge almost everyone's systems. The dominant bass line begins at 0:14 and repeats until the ultralow section begins at 1:57 and does a disappearing act (for me) at 2:06. This repeats before the end. I know the bass is still there--I asked the composer.

I'm pretty sure Scott will like this. Not everyone will. It's described as "alternative ambient electronic with raw guitar." I don't know about the raw part, or guitar, for that matter. I thought it was all electronic. I kind of major in this stuff, so I really do need to hear the low end.

"Crystalis" by Matthew Peterson. Created in Reason 2.5(!).
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#167021 - 07/28/12 10:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Ryszard]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Looking around the net I found a 20 hz test tone. My speakers, Yorkville Elites play this fine and I can hear it. My Bose is almost there, it's a stretch to hear it at all.

That said I loose my hearing at around 2700 as it cuts off. 3000 hz is never heard by me, so that's out. Actually on a piano the last 12 white notes are impossible to hear.

Some of the black notes on the piano I can't either, they seem to be the top ones.

So at 20HZ my Behringer powered mixer and speaker cabinets that are too heavy to move,work OK. The Bose, not quite. At the top end both can make tones I cannot hear.
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#167022 - 08/02/12 04:42 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: eddie1261]
jazzmammal Online   content
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Quote:

Well, ears can hear what, 20hz to 20,000hz




Who's ears, Eddie? A healthy 16 year old can hear 20K maybe and it's all downhill every year from there. I guarantee you right now, where you sit you can't hear above 9K maybe 10K and the way you talk about high powered systems in years past you may be cut off around 6 or 7K.

I agree with both sides here. On the one hand I think it's kind of silly but Richard is a long time valued forum member and Mac is helping him. Good enough for me.

Now for my somewhat related question. I've been looking for a small powered sub to go with my EV 12" powered monitors that I use in stereo for my keyboard on smaller gigs. For larger gigs I have a pair of 15" Eons that I power with a 500W power amp and mixer. The EV's sound great but one time the bass player was late at the restaurant gig and I was asked to cover some bass and even though I kept it down I promptly blew out one of the woofers for $100. All I need is maybe 150-200W with a 10 or at the most 12" sub. In the pro audio world all there is are the big 1000W 15" and 18" thunder thumpers. EV just came out with a 700W 12" that only weighs 46 pounds and costs $600 and the new Yamaha DXR 12" is 1100W and $800. Half that capability and cost would be more than enough. Is it possible a $300 10-12" consumer sub would work for this? In my experience consumer stuff at a gig lasts maybe 10 seconds. I'm even thinking of buying a 300W plate amp from parts express, getting a 10" prebuilt sub box from Pep Boys and put a good Emminence driver in it. All the parts for that would still be the same $300. Or, are you guys are thinking what I'm thinking and just stick to pro audio? Remember all I'm talking here is some bass reinforcement for small gigs where my monitors just won't quite cut it. That 12" EV sub has a SPL rating of 126db for pete's sake.

Bob
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#167023 - 08/02/12 04:52 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: jazzmammal]
Mac Offline
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Check out the Bazookas, Bob. Yes, I know they are meant for use in cars, but they also can make for a nice affordable, portable subwoofer for use with Band in a Box and keyboards, etc.


--Mac
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#167024 - 08/02/12 06:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
jazzmammal Online   content
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Man, I should have you on speed dial. The top Bazooka is Class D 200W 10" with variable crossover of 60-250.
Sounds perfect for what I need.

Bob
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#167025 - 08/02/12 06:35 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7206
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
As important as whether to go consumer or pro audio, is where you will place the sub. Unless you have a speaker delay unit, for live sound reinforcement you better be able to geographically align that sub(s) with your mains. Otherwise, you can suck the bass end right out of things due to phase cancellation of the sub against the lows generated by your mains, and/or make sure that you cross over so that you don't get the issue - I still like to geographically align PA subs with mains when I can.

The nice thing about consumer and even pro-level powered subwoofers is that they nearly always have the cross-over in the sub cabinet. Run the crossed-over outlets to your mains. Run your full-range signal to the sub cabinet, dial in the cross-over frequency by ear.

Bob, in your DIY kit, I didn't see you include the cost of the amp and crossover.

The Bazooka still needs a crossed-over signal to it and DC power being sent to it - from what I recall, even the amped version.

While I don't often disagree with Mac, I think the recommendation of the bazooka is a bit of a wild goose chase for gigging using A/C power.

List of items that you would need to have on hand in addition to the Bazooka sourced for $199 at WalMart:

1. Crossover network, to make sure you don't phase cancel your existing mains with the bazooka output. The bazooka has a fixed 85 Hz upper cutoff.
1a. Cabling for the cross over.
2. DC power source to power the amp in the bazooka. Unless you run a cable out to your battery in the car, or bring along a DC power source, you need 12 Volts from somewhere. You might have a DC source that can handle the current draw, you might not. Gotta get it into the room.
3. Some way to keep the thing from rolling on the floor

Regarding a consumer-grade sub for gigging: The main issue I see with using a consumer powered sub for gigging is the connectors. Most of them are going to have spring-clip type connectors - not designed for gigging. For Ryszard's use, the spring clips are no issue - he's not gigging the thing.

Also, consumer powered sub cases won't be designed for knock-around transport - the bazooka case is probably better for that. Even better is to just shop for the smallest powered PA sub you can find on Craigslist.

I'd shop for one of these babies used: http://www.mackie.com/products/hd1501/
or something like it.

On the cheap, go for Behringer. Here's one that's complete for under $500 with all you would need, crossed over XLR outs and all the power you would ever need, phase switch, etc.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/B1500DPRO/

There is appeal to DIY, but when it costs more and less likely to solve your issue, sometimes it pays to buy the right tool for the job.

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#167026 - 08/02/12 06:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: rockstar_not]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7206
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
@jazzmammal - I was typing while you wrote your response. See the list of what else you have to buy to make that combo work with your existing mains.

@Mac - sorry to disagree so blatantly, but this is coming from a guy who loves bazookas for vehicle use - bought one from Crutchfield in the late 80's and loved the boom it gave my Dodge Omni. Unless you are a hobbyist with a spare AC-DC power supply, the right crossover setup, etc - IMO it's just not an even close to ideal solution for either Ryszard nor jazzmammal's very different purposes.

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#167027 - 08/02/12 06:46 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: rockstar_not]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Yes, he got carried away and looked at one of the *amplified* Bazookas.

NO, not a good thing for stage work, as you would need an extremely capable 13.8VDC power supply to power the thing.

However, one of the UNamplified Bazookas, like one with the built in crossover, designed to work at speaker level, or one designed to be used with a separate amplifier and electronic crossover would work, I've done it.


--Mac
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#167028 - 08/02/12 08:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
jazzmammal Online   content
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Registered: 06/08/05
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Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
I threw that reply out just as I had to take a conference call with the IRS and a client. That only took about an hour. Then I came to the same conclusion you guys did. In addition most car audio subs need a sub out feed from the main amp don't they? The pro audio subs have a stereo in and stereo outs. I can't feed a sub with the line outs from my EV monitors, that defeats the purpose. The signal path has to go the other way, sub first, then to the EV's. And yes, I need a powered sub not passive.

Scott, the DIY plate amp includes the stereo ins/outs so it accepts the signal first then feeds it back to the monitors. That's not a bad deal, I found a dual 10" enclosure for $39. Just cut out a hole for the plate amp, install two decent drivers and I'm good to go. That may be the best thing.

It would still be cool to have both you and Mac on my speed dial.

Bob
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#167029 - 08/02/12 09:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: jazzmammal]
John Conley Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
Ha, Yanks argue about bazookas. Wow. Rocket launchers are next!!!

Every 'clubhouse' in Canada wants 2. Of each. The ones with the concrete walls and security cams.
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#167030 - 08/03/12 07:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: John Conley]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Bazooka is so '40s.

LAWS Rocket is so '80s...

Smart Bullet.

Yeah.


--Mac
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#167031 - 08/03/12 09:26 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: Mac]
Ryszard Offline
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Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 3848
Loc: Kennesaw (Atlanta) GA
Rail gun, baby! Twenty-two bazillion rounds per minute! Only prob is keeping it loaded.

BTW, I have contacted a guy about his craigslist ad for a Behringer B2092A Truth powered sub. It's more than I want to pay and I have no idea where I'll put it, but it was made specifically for my mains. If I don't get that I'll go the crossover and amp route.
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#167032 - 08/03/12 06:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Is there such a thing as an inexpensive active subwoofer? [Re: jazzmammal]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18495
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Quote:



It would still be cool to have both you and Mac on my speed dial.

Bob




It's not as fun as you think, 'cause then they have you on speed dial too...


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PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2018 - Xtra Styles PAK Quick Start Tutorial Video

Our latest video includes a Quick Start tutorial on the installation, locations, and use of the Band-in-a-Box® Xtra Styles PAKs in Version 2018 for Windows. Video: Xtra Styles PAK Quick Start Tutorial

We have put all of our Xtra Styles PAKs on SALE! Until December 31st, purchase any Xtra Styles PAK (1 - 4) for just $29 each! (reg. $49) www.pgmusic.com/xtrastyles.php?os=win

User Blog - How To Record a Cover Song Using Band-in-a-Box and RealBand

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Joanne summarizes the steps she took to produce her cover of "Old Lang Syne" - her final result was posted to the User Showcase Forum: Listen to Auld Lang Syne

https://www.joannecooper.co.za/blog/blog/how-to-record-a-cover-song-using-band-in-a-box-and-realband

Announcing…The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)

We are excited to announce the release of a new project: The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)

Songwriter Floyd Jane shows the songwriting process from inspiration to performance and publication: http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=IYMMZVvQdCw

The idea for this project came about when many members on this forum and elsewhere were asking questions about the song writing process. There are many aspects, and many parts of it necessary to create a song, get it arranged, performed, and then published on the internet. So we asked the great songwriter Floyd Jane, who is a regular member on this forum, if he could help. Floyd agreed and was even able to collaborate with other forum members, Janice and Bud. The result is this video we put together that you can see on YouTube or Facebook, called "The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)".

We hope this video helps other songwriters with their songwriting process, and also shows them tools that are available to them along the way. Also, we mention this User Showcase Forum, and hope to see many new aspiring or accomplished songwriters join this community :blush:

A big Thank You to Floyd for sharing your knowledge with the community and making this possible. And to Janice and Bud for your great collaboration!

Here is Floyd's original forum post for his song "A Little Bit Of Me": http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=433190

Check out Floyd / Janice & Bud’s music here:
http://floydjane.com/
https://www.janiceandbud.com/

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows - 49 Requests Fulfilled!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows boasts more than 50 new features... and a lot of the new features fill the requests posted by program users!

Some of these include:

Q. I am learning guitar. The RealTracks are very helpful in that I can hear great guitar players, and most of the tracks have tab and notation as well. But there is much more to guitar, could you include some videos of some of the RealTracks Artists? Because I would learn much more from seeing a guitarist than just hearing them.

A. We have a major new feature called "Video RealTracks." These work and sound like RealTracks, but you get to see a video of the Guitarist (or whatever instrument) playing as well. The amazing thing is that this works with any chord progression you type in. So, if you want to learn to play like the great guitarist Brent Mason, for example, you can type in chords to any progression you are interested in, and then hear and see a video of Brent soloing over your progression. Now you can learn much quicker, as it helps to see how a musician is performing, as well as to hear.

Q. I love the Audio Chord Wizard, as it figures out chords from mp3 and other audio files. But it is a separate program from Band-in-a-Box, and I can’t go back and forth to change things easily.

A. We've solved that, as BiaB 2018 has integrated the Audio Chord Wizard directly into Band-in-a-Box. Now load an audio file into BiaB, open the Audio Edit Window – Audio Chord Wizard mode, and let it automatically figure out the bar lines and chords for the song.

Q. I like to save songs as MP3 files, and can't do this with BiaB, except a very low quality one, 64kbps.

A. We've improved this, by adding support for Windows Media Foundation. This allows you to save MP3 in your choice of resolutions, up to very high 320mpbs. Better still, it works on current versions of Windows (Windows 7,8,10) and also on older versions too (Vista, XP).

We've answered 49 questions - review all of these answers on our forum post "49 of your Problems solved? List of 49 Requests fulfilled in Band-in-a-Box 2018" here.

All of the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows can be reviewed at http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.new.htm

RealBand® 2018 for Windows Build 3 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 users can update their version with the latest patch, Build 3. Download this patch here

Summary of Changes since 2018 Build 3:

Added: Section Numbers supported. All section letter menus now include numbers 1 through 9 in addition to letters A through Z.
Fixed: Section letters in Notation Window were not being resized if the notation was zoomed in/out
Fixed: RealBand might freeze when generating audio harmonies
Fixed: Loading in a BB song (MGU/SGU) or generating realtracks could freeze up the program.
Fixed: Chords in Notation/LeadSheet on 1st beat of a bar were being drawn too close to bar lines.
Fixed: Support for XP and Vista.

http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_3

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 505 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows users can update their version with the latest patch - Build 505.

This patch can be downloaded here.

Summary of changes for Build 505:

Added: You can now put Section Numbers in your song. Previously you could only use letters A-Z, but now you can use 1-9 as well.
Added:You can now filter styles in the StylePicker for styles that contain Video RealTracks.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box would crash with error "Procedure entry point MFTEnumEx could not be found in the Dynamic Link Library Mfplat.DLL" while starting up if using Windows Vista.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box would crash with error message "dwmapi.dll cannot be found" while starting up if using Windows XP.
Fixed: The Transcribe feature in the Audio Edit window was not always working.
Fixed: The Windows Audio Devices dialog might show garbage text for names of devices if not running Band-in-a-Box in English.
Fixed: There was no Quality selector in the Render to Audio File dialog if rendering MP3 on Windows 7 or earlier.
Fixed: There were visual artifacts in the leadsheet & notation windows when moving the cursor.
Fixed: Using the Transpose or stretching features in the Audio Edit window might cause an access violation if the audio track is mono.
Improved: Band-in-a-Box will start up faster.
Improved: Importing ABC Notation files has been improved.
Updated: Help file and manuals.
Updated: RealTracks Artist bio's.

http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#505

New! Video RealTracks for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows!

NEW with Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows... Video RealTracks Sets!

Video RealTracks allow you to see the RealTracks artist playing that track - you can use them just like any other RealTrack, and you can generate a video which will display the musician playing your song exactly as you hear it. You can also include a chord sheet or notation in the video.
TIP: If you load one of the video RealTracks bands, you will have video RealTracks on 5 tracks, and you can make a video of 1-5 musicians!

We've added Video RealTracks Set 1: Pop Ballad Band to our Free Bonus PAK included in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows packages during our December special.
Video RealTracks Set 2: Country TrainBeat Band is included in the 2018 49-PAK, along with 40 Bonus UNRELEASED RealTracks, 22 MIDI SuperTracks, 101 Instrumental Studies, and Artist Performance Set 8: Traditional Songs Sung by Béatrix Méthé.

SPECIAL OFFER: During our Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Holiday Special, purchase our "Video RealTracks Set 3-6 Special Bundle Offer" to complete your purchase with the remaining Video RealTracks Sets for the low price of just $49! http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.videorealtracks.htm

Learn more about the new Video RealTracks and see them in action: Video link - "Video RealTracks Sets 1-6 for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows"

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