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Kind Souls,
Please direct me toward what I need to do to create the following task. I want to create a Dorian Minor mode backing track in a jazz swing style that plays over minor seventh chords and Dorian Minor scales. For example, I'd like to create a 24-bar song with three 8-bar phrases in the keys of F Dorian Minor, Eb Dorian Minor and D Dorian Minor. The minor seventh chord built on F would of course be F/Ab/C/Eb; on Eb, Eb/Gb/Bb/Db, and on D, D/F/A/C. This is straightforward. How, though, do I get the Dorian Minor scales to play? The Dorian Minor scale on F wound be F/G/Ab/Bb/C/D/Eb/F; on Eb would be Eb/F/Gb/Ab/B/C/Db/Eb; and on D would be D/E/F/G/A/B/C/D.
My motivation for this is to model it after the Jamey Aebersold How to Play Jazz and Improvise, Volume 1, 8-bar Phrases CD Track #2 , except that I want to transpose it through all twelve keys at various points in the circle of fifths. Um, the chords play as I expect them to, but I can't figure out how to force the scale tones into only those of the Dorian Minor mode. I'm using BIAB 2012.5.
I've spent hours reading through various Forum threads. There's a poop-load of information therein, but I haven't found anything on "modes" as yet. So, I'm just asking for some of you more experienced posters to point me in the right direction by steering me to the right forum thread or section, the applicable tutorial video, or the appropriate help topic.
Thanks,
dbailey7
P.S. Regarding doing my "due diligence", I'm now on day two of my forum reading. And while it's very informative reading, methinks that I could spend many more days at this before I randomly stumble onto the specific information that I an seeking. Cheers,
-:-
Cheers,
dbailey7
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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<< How, though, do I get the Dorian Minor scales to play? The Dorian Minor scale on F wound be F/G/Ab/Bb/C/D/Eb/F; on Eb would be Eb/F/Gb/Ab/B/C/Db/Eb; and on D would be D/E/F/G/A/B/C/D.>> I think you have two options to create a nice modal backing in BIAB: a) Enter variants of the basic modal chord, eg for Dm: use Dm7, Dm9, Dm6, Dm11, b) Enter chords from the harmonised major scale (Cmaj in this case): eg Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, Em7, Dm7, Cmaj7, Bm7b5 etc. If the moving bass is too disruptive, try using slash chords eg Bm7b5/D, Fmaj7/D etc. If you listen to Impressions, for example, on www.realjazztracks.com you'll hear both of these methods for making modal backings more interesting (using all-Real Tracks) Best - Andy
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Hi David, Welcome to the forum. What a great question! I don't remember reading any responses to a question like this so it's possible that, after days of forum reading, you're still no closer to a solution. I haven't thought about creating modal tunes before. After reading Andy's response, though, his solution is a very good one. I totally agree with Andy. For the layman, F Dorian can be thought of and an Eb Major scale except it's played from F to F. As Andy has pointed out, though, Exactly the same diatonic chords are used in F Dorian as Eb Major. Based on Andy's solution above, what I'd do to create a song in F Dorian is as follows ... 1. Set the key to Eb Major (since this key has all the notes the F Dorian key uses).  2. Create a suitable Dorian mode chord progression from the available chords. (I've given triads below but 7ths (as Andy has suggested), 9ths, 11ths and 13ths are all available.)  You've inspired me! I'm going to try and write a song in the Dorian mode, now  Hope the above thoughts help, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Andy and Noel:
I have not got the tune in from of me, but I seem to remember Impressions goes through three dorians (in one interpretation anyways) BTW its in Aebersold 56 if I recall).
I wonder how BIAB treats the voicings when the key is set to only one of these?
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Hi ZeroZero,
Sounds like an interesting arrangement.
If I was working on that tune, I'd use F5 to set the various sections of the chord sheet to the appropriate key. As I indicated above with the F Dorian example (because BIAB doesn't set modal keys apart from standard minor), I'd set the song's key to the the major key a full tone below the Dorian mode being played since those notes will be the ones used by the Dorian mode.
It would be a fascinating exercise to try it out and see what happens; whether it worked well enough or not.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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I have made songs that had leads played in different keys, but only in a Relative Minor. I entered the song chords and made wave files, then rewrote the chords and generated a solo and brought the tracks into my DAW. That is the only way that I found would work for me so far. I had planned to try Mixolydian to force a flatted 7th,but haven't yet since they have Bluesy versions of some leads now. It would be a great wishlist item to post, "Mode Button".
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Hi everyone,
thinking about this, when BIAB treats a 2/5/1 I presume it does it for the key of that 2 5 1 rather than in the key of the piece. This is because you can of course have a 251 to any modal chord - for example you might get a 2/5/1 to the fourth of the C key signature - F. This would be Gm, C7, F major - non modal tone Bb. I presume BIAB would recognise that say F| dorian was in the key of Eb and voice accordingly?
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Conventional harmony the notion of a 'minor' chord:
It's non conventional harmony, but I have always believed that the 'major' 'minor' concepts break down too easily. In my book, if you define a minor as a chord having a minor third, a perfect fifth and a flat seventh, then modally speaking there are three minor chords only in major diatonic harmony. These chords are the dorian, phrygian and aoelian.
OK so its also possible to create other scales and have modes of these, esp melodic 'minor' scales (ascending and descending) and the harmonic 'minor' scales - but htese are really a whole new ball game as altering one note makes a difference to ALL the modes. I believe we should call these 'minor' chords something else other than 'minor' as they function differently than a 'major diatonic' mode minor.
If you sharpen the dominant, commonly done, you can treat this as an exception, but if your consistent with your logic, the consequences - modally (e.g. build 251s), are that all hell breaks loose. Your in a different universe.
Anyway that's my r#nt about conventional harmony. I should interested to know how BIAB treats minor chords in their various context.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what David Bailey wants to do here, but I've spent my time years ago with the Aebersold studies.
In Band in a Box, the only way I know to try to replicate such would be to first lay out the chords on the chord grid and then to assign fixed notes to the Melody or Solo track that play the Dorian mode over them.
Then find a Style that comes closest to voicing the chords as desired, but I wouldn't count on complete and exact "Dorian" voicings in the auto-accompaniment, for the Style file is likely to play the chord inversions more like a live player might choose them rather than "in a row" or scalular chording fashion. Which to my ears sounds better, but may not be what David wants here.
The Audio Chord Wizard may come in handy here, dunno, but you could try making an mp3 of your Aebersold recording and then import that into the Audio Chord Wizard, get the full song layout and First bar plus lining up the succeeding bars there, then transfer the results to BiaB. Of course, I would not expect the ACW to grab and identify every chord properly since it would be a Jazz recording with plenty of extensions, etc. likely, so I'd have to go thru the Chord Grid manually, correcting all the chords to suit. Then I'd go thru auditioning Styles to find one to suit. That would at least get the songfile layout. I would then add whatever notes desired using my MIDI keyboard to Record on the Melody track.
If this is to create a very exacting backing track, for teaching purposes, say, I think I'd not use Band in a Box, for there is no one-button solution that I know of. I'd use a Sequencing software such as Powertracks or RealBand and record exactly the backing desired, track by track.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I was always taught that in order to differentiate between the minor modes in a chord voicing you need to include its characteristic minor seconds.
Using C as a common root for easy comparison,
C Dorian would be best voiced as Cm13 or Cm69
C Natural minor would be Cm9b13 (which isn't available so you can use D7susb5b9/C instead)
C Phrygian would need the root/b9 and the 5/#5 s which is also unsupported so you can use C7susb9b13
If you're using moving chords over a static root to define the mode it's possible to outline these characteristic minor seconds in other ways. For C Phrygian for instance, you could use DbMaj7b5/C alternating with G7susb5b9/C, or DbMaj7b5/C with Fm9/C I'd suggest rapidly alternating these chords as Fm9/C used on its own too long wouldn't suggest C Phrygian.
As for creating phrases to go with the backing I presume you mean using the soloist to come up with material.
If so there might be a way of doing that. If you go to the part of the soloist dialogue that deals with 'melody influences solo' and choose 'custom', then click on the '+' tab then you can get the soloist to track the notes of the mode as long as they appear firstly in the melody channel. Simply input them first, they don't have to be rhythmically accurate as you can ensure that the soloist doesn't match the rhythm of your notes only the pitches themselves. Ty it and see what you come up with.
The other thing you can do is to use the Soloist Maker part of the dialogue box, and Press 'edit'. Make sure the 'outside range' option has values of 1 to 1 only. Remember that its the notes the soloist stresses on the strong beats that will determine how 'inside' it sounds. A sixteenth note phrase that includes just one chromatic passing tone en route to a chord tone will not sound 'outside' the harmony IMHO.
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 08/26/12 07:01 AM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Greetings Andy123, Noel96, ZeroZero, Tommyc, Mac and Alan S.: Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I will begin tomorrow to attempt to implement the suggestions for creating the backing track that you folks have suggested. By the way, I said that I have BIAB 2012.5, but actually I have BAB 2010.5. Sorry about that. Also, I have the Aebersold CD Track #2 as an .MP3 file (it's about 2.14MB in size). If you're interested in hearing it, send me an email at david.bailey@technologist.com and I'll forward it to you. It may take me a while to try out all of the things suggested, because I need to get my "sea legs" under me regarding coming up to speed on BIAB, RB, and maybe some DAW work as well. In any case, I thank you all for your help, and I'll try to post my results as soon as I have something successful to report. Cheers, David
-:-
Cheers,
dbailey7
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke
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Keys mean almost nothing in Biab. If you enter a 2,5,1 chord song change keys and don't transpose it all the same chords and solo are played as if the key never changed.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Keys mean almost nothing in Biab. If you enter a 2,5,1 chord song change keys and don't transpose it all the same chords and solo are played as if the key never changed.
And that is why all this "modal" stuff will not work in BIAB unless you are actually playing the proper scales over the backing chords. Didn't we come to this conclusion years ago? 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi all, JMD
Not sure what you mean by 'Model stuff'. Anyway I just tried a simple experiment which confirms which you wiser (and perhaps not older) users are stating. I took I song I wrote in Db and transposed the key to C but answered NO to transpose worksheet, the whole song played back exactly as its written even though the key was C and the chords were nothing to do with C.
I guess this cofirms what Tommy C said.
Dorian is a minor chord with a scalar context of using a 6th not a flat sixth (as in natural/aeolian or phrygian) and a 2nd not a flat second (as in Phrygian). I just typed in a couple of standard minor chords in random orders and found that in the styles I schose it seems to me that they have a flat sixth thing going on.
If you type in a 'X' m6 you get a sixth, not a flat 6. This could be used for Dorian I think.
Off topic:
I have a load of Aebersold stuff here - cut my teeth on them, but now I dont bother using them as BIAB is so good. The reading in the Aebersold quoted above is a good foundation though.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Quote:
Hi all, JMD Not sure what you mean by 'Model stuff'.
Just another typo  - think modal.
Quote:
Off topic: I have a load of Aebersold stuff here - cut my teeth on them, but now I dont bother using them as BIAB is so good. The reading in the Aebersold quoted above is a good foundation though.
Agreed here, the Aebersold stuff is good stuff. There is certainly a place for this learning instruction along side of BIAB.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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When I made a song with a simple arrangement of 2 chords Am9 and Dm9 saved just the band then a new song with Cmaj7 and Fmaj7 and only generated the solo, then put them both in my DAW it worked just fine. You might try the same with chords that contain the same notes as your progression and get results for Dorian mode. I'm not a chord wizard so don't know which chords to replace with what you are using, but I bet someone here could suggest them if they knew your progression. It won't be an all at once Biab playing thing, but it might be a work around. (Maybe)
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Just use minor 6 chords. So for F dorian type Fm6, for D dorian, Dm6 and so on.
That`s the best way to have the bass use the dorian scale, since the 6th is the only difference between dorian and aeolian. If you use other tensions, like 9 or 11, there would be no difference to the aeolian mode.
I use it all the time when I teach my students "Impressions" or other dorain mode songs. So they hear the dorian sound better.
Sandra
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I think the poster is happy enough with the chords, just that he can't seem to figure a way of getting phrases to say in the dorian mode. By that I think he means the soloists phrases in BIAB. I can't think of anything else to which it could refer. Maybe if he returns he might like to clarify.
My fix would still be to set the outside range values in the Soloist Maker to 1 - 1. And if that fails input the notes into the melody channel, copy and paste to all measures and get the 'Melody influences solo' settings to use all the notes in the melody.
Like I said it doesn't really matter if an odd chromatic tone surfaces, its perfectly jazz-like for that to happen as long as the stressed tones on strong beats are those of the chord/scale.
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 08/27/12 04:16 PM.
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Quote:
Andy and Noel:
I have not got the tune in from of me, but I seem to remember Impressions goes through three dorians (in one interpretation anyways) BTW its in Aebersold 56 if I recall).
I wonder how BIAB treats the voicings when the key is set to only one of these?
It won't. This boils down to the oft repeated question "why can't Biab give me the voicings I want?"
You've been around these forums quite some time now Zero. You've read this before I'm sure. Biab is designed to give us what it thinks should work based on the style. AFAIK there is no Impressions style but you can make one and if you do post it for the rest of us. The original version played by McCoy Tyner uses the So What chords in a different rhythm. Those chords are very specific and you can't write out exact voicings in Biab but you can create a style using those voicings but even then those voicings will not play exactly the same all through the song because of the weightings. And, you still wouldn't get the exact rhythm. This leads us to the other oft repeated question about using Biab to create exact covers of classic songs. Can't do that very well either.
To the OP, there's always workarounds. Now we can write those parts out in midi on the piano track and then freeze the track. This is completely independent of the style and whatever you wrote will play exactly the same way every time. I can't remember if 2010.5 has the freeze track function or not, it it doesn't then whatever you wrote onto the piano track is getting regenerated as soon as you hit play. Time marches on, 2010.5 is already ancient history.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi David,
It looks like there have been good responses to your question. I am not sure exactly what you are looking for - is it something that plays the dorian scales, or a soloist that is in a dorian mode?
FWIW, there is a scales feature in BB that will play scales over chords.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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