PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Hearing Aids and Music

If its loud, no problem but soft sections get lost. Been that way for years and years. Actually more an issue with soft spoken people which I simply can't hear. A trip yesterday to "miricle ear" confirmed my hearing sucks (..but I knew that). Test show loss especially in the mid to upper frequncy range. So the fix, hearing aids. But at ~$6000 I would have to postpone all other expenditures for a year - including, dare I say it, my yearly BIAB update.

Anyone been to this life's milestone and got any advice.

Did they tell you at what frequency your hearing stops? My last test they said I can hear up to 9000.

Didn't pay real close attention to the numbers but it may have been a strong rolloff starting at 6ooo hz. Fact is I do have a hearing problem, but I am not deft. The ~6000 price tag on two tiny little gadgets to fit behind my ears is just unpalitable at this time. I was very clsoe to purchasing a 1995 MB 500SL a couple months back for $7000 - deal fell through. Wish I would have cause that would have been a lot more fun than this.

Here's a bit of advice on your output EQ for your DAW at least.

1. Get your audiologist to give you a copy of your audiogram. The audiogram represents your HL, Hearing Level, as compared to 'normal' hearing.

2. The curves or the table of values, will look something like this:
http://hearingaidinsider.com/articles/understanding-hearing-test-results-audiogram

The values are the amount of 'loss' compared to someone with more normal hearing.

3. You can use a graphic EQ to give you up to 24 dB of adjustability, so that what you are hearing on the output of the EQ so that the result is more 'normal' as it would be heard by your ears with their hearing loss, you do this by basically flipping the audiogram upside-down, for the EQ settings.

Does this make sense?

Let's say your right and left ears have similar HL values, so I'll go through the EQ setting for just one ear.

Let's say the HL values are as follows in this little table, where we have Frequency in Hz, and HL in dB, and then I also will post the delta from that band to the HL where the least amount of loss is evident.

125 / 10 / 0
250 / 10 / 0
500 / 20 / 10
1000 / 25 / 15
2000 / 25 / 15
3150 / 35 / 25
4000 / 45 / 35
6300 / 35 / 25
8000 / 25 / 15

There is a total span of loss from 10 dB at the lower frequencies, to a max of 45 dB at 4000 Hz. A 35 dB difference from the lowest amount of loss to the highest.

This is a typical shape of an audiogram for a person that has suffered noise induced hearing loss, with the '4k Notch'.

If you want to listen to music where the output frequency response will sound more 'normal' to you, what you want to do is apply an EQ which negates that loss shape as much as possible. In other words, the EQ 'boost' that you want to employ, is the right column of numbers

With most graphic EQs, you have a +/- 12 dB range for each band. To negate this loss shape for this generic example, I would use two graphic EQ's in series.

The first EQ I would set the sliders to be at the following values:

100-315 Hz, set to -12 (yes, minus - this will become clear in a moment hopefully)
500 Hz, set to -2
1000 Hz, set to +3
2000 Hz, set to +3
3150 Hz, set to +12
4000 Hz, set to +12
6300 Hz, set to + 12
8000 Hz, set to + 3

And all the intermediate frequencies not listed, I would set so that they are a smooth transition between those bands you have already set.

In series, put another graphic EQ plugin in place.

On this one, set it flat except for

4000 Hz, set to +10

If you look at the delta of the settings I suggested, you will see that if you sum the deltas from the two EQs for each frequency, they will be close to the overall HL deltas. Case and point, look at 4000 Hz, there is a difference of 35 dB between the HL at the lowest frequencies of 10 and 45 dB at 4000 Hz. The EQ settings that I have suggested will allow 34 dB (roughly, there is the matter of the bandwidth of each of the EQ sliders) of gain of the 4000 Hz setting, compared to the settings of the lower frequencies. First EQ is a 24 dB difference, second EQ puts an additional 10 dB at 4000 Hz.

Most audiograms will not show frequencies higher than 8000 Hz. What you do there is up to you. I would suggest boosting the same amount as at 8 kHz total to start with, then add/subtract from there.

If your headphones or speakers can handle it, you should notice high-frequency clarity that perhaps has been missing in your music enjoyment.

If you have different losses left to right ear, try to employ this process independently per ear.

This is not a substitute for hearing aids. Hearing aids are optimized for speech intelligibility for the most part, even those with 'music' programs - the speaker in the hearing aid is still optimized for speech; very low and very high frequency capability are limited.

This is a solution for listening to music with enjoyment (WIHTOUT HEARING AIDS). I have 're-EQd' music for people with known hearing losses in this way and in one case, the gentleman told me that when he first heard a balanced amount of music left to right ear, with the mid and high frequency clarity, he was brought to tears.

It is also recommended for headphone listening, where you have more direct control of music going to each ear. Finally, I would suggest that high-quality isolating headphones (I can tell you where to get some!) will also improve this capability.

Do not do this and use hearing aids if you have them. If the delta of loss is greater than the example, you might need to figure out how to stack 3 EQs in a chain and what the overall settings should be for each band for each EQ.

The cool thing about plugins is that you should be able to do this in your DAW. If you use BlueCat's frequency analyzer http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_FreqAnalyst/ , you can overlay a frequency analysis plugin on the input to the EQ chain with one on the output of the chain, and see if you are in fact introducing the upside down audiogram to the final music. Depending on the Q values of the EQ, you may need to adjust sliders accordingly if too much boost is being applied.

Dan, I immediately thought of Scott. He works with this stuff in his day gig.

I can't be the only one.

I want to a gig yesterday and forgot my glasses. It was mostly Christmas tunes with drums, keyboard, bass, trumpet and trombone, and me on guitar. They called from the "Real Christmas Fake book", hell I didn't even know that existed. So with no abiltiy to read along with the piano player I mostly did a lot of percussive strumming and comping by ear. By the way, I did have a blast.

Beach and botulism are acceptable euphemisms Dan.

My hearing problem is excess wax production. I mean big time excesses. My nurse must swab my ears every Friday or I can't hear but about 50% of what's being said. Once she harvests the potato crop, I hear quite well...for another week.

High level industrial noise and a macho refusal to wear plugs or protectors cost me most of the high end frequencies. Oh, the vanities incidental to youth!

I could write a book about my experience with this. I did actually write a lot of code for a small company in Dorchester, a stones throw from there, who make a hearing aid testing box and software. I did a Unix shell script to parse the customer's order, and fax a receipt of order, next the picking of parts, then the final assembly stage, bench testing, and shipping with the data to track the shipment. Thus the customer knew every step of the way what was happening.

My poor friend Ian Fraser, who was just so fearful of the total end of his hearing, helped me lots, as did Scot, and others.

Firstly, my hearing is broken, but when they play a tone, I always hear a click too. Supposedly, despite the cost of the headphones, i heard click and raised my hand. A year later after saying I heard the click, she said, no a tone, I said a click. We got rid of the clicks and then my hearing got worse. About 4 notes (12 white keys down) are Broken. I mean they play them and I hear a racoon scratching the roof. Turns out that amplifying those notes wrecks what's left of my upper hearing.

I have a copy of my 'curve', it goes nice and straight across, and then goes down at almost 90 degrees, straight down but for a very small move right. Along with the broken notes. So from 1400 to 1550 or so, a boost gets me a very little. All freq. below 1400 or so are perfect. The rest are really gone. My father is going to get my aids. They help so little and I am afraid to lose them.

I have to use the CC to 'hear' TV. Too much compression. I do not hear if you don't talk TO me. Not away from me, or looking at the floor. I cannot hear my wife in our mini cooper, but I get 50 percent in the Chevy pickup.

I am going to hook up the big EQ I don't use, and the little behringer mixer with some bose phones and see if I can hear the TV that way.

I think at a gig, the in the ear channel moulds, with some sort of signal chain would work ok. Monitors on the floor replaced by those.

Progress has been slow, but the old days are dying hard. Like you used to need to memorize charts, no more. Even the jazz at the Lincoln centre orchestra had written parts for every piece, no extemporization, no fishing for a resolution, just flat out play as rotten as we say. Even the darn drummer had a set out score, which I found crazy and dumb.

So there you have it. I miss Ian's little messages, PM's and emails. We canucks can be an unusual lot, and from where we sit, despite the years of hanging out with each other, there is a common bond in our anthropocentric vision, though some here sense it might be myoptic, but nevertheless, it exists.

My favourite funny of the year was embodied in the Delaware licence plates, where the war of 1812 was won with the rockets red glare. Ian would have laughed his backside off over the shot of that plate I brought back. Our version says the objective was payback for burning Toronto, so the advance party told the Pres and his missus to take a hike, then they torched the place, forcing the painting of it with white paint, thus ever the White House. It was black. Once the boats got to Baltimore the unused ordinance was disposed of, and they sailed off. So the objective stated was to invade Canada and annex it when the Brits were fighting the little French general, it was a matter of marching in said the Pres. Didn't work out so well. But what matters here, is that we were a few pairs of boots short of being a bunch of states. Very close. In the end, the new invention, the rocket, was shot off at Baltimore, and the words were written, in 1813, to a tune sung in masonic lodges of the day, and copied from a drinking song of the day, (i.e., 1750). It took until the WW1 that it really became the adventurous anthem, complete with high notes most folks can only dream of. Beauty eh? so your plates celebrate the war, the win, the words. We spent millions to say we won. I don't know what we won, but it's time to make new powder, I think the yankees are coming!

(Truth be told, the above is a sort of personal tribute to Ian, he and I extolled the virtues of our society, while not bashing anyone, but showing how differing values and points of view were developed despite the commonality of the causes. I think I'm fading now, and it's time to hit the sack, or as my grandfahter used to say, off to p o und my ear.

Good dreams Ian, RIP. Ask Brubeck to teach you Take 5, on the guitar, do it slow for me.

My wife had three hearing tests 6 months ago. They are free. Mirical Ear wanted $6,000.00 for the better hearing aids. The other two companys were about the same. A basic set was 47 hundred. After much googling and talking with on line companys, we bought from the best deal. The Hansaton X-Mini with a remote control . Top of the line. An old, well known German company. It came as promised with a years supply of batterys,extra fittment parts. They work great and the price was $2,700.00 with remote and a 3 year warranty. She is very happy we spent the time to check out the mark up on hearing aids. The Siemens company owns Hansaton. I do not work for these folks, do not own stock e.t.c. Just thought You could use the tip.----Leon

Leon's tip is well advised. Like in many industries, over the last 15-20 years, there has been quite a bit of consolidation in the hearing aid marketplace, with there really being only a handful of manufacturers selling probably 10+ brands.

The Siemens/Hansaton relationship is one example. I really can't keep track of the others, but nearly every well-known instrument (that's what they call them) manufacturer, has at least one lesser known brand, but with very comparable technology, maybe smaller range of product line, and typically a lower price.

-Scott

I have problems with my hearing too, last Easter I started hearing a separate echo of sounds in my right ear. Sort of like there was a separateness in the sound I was hearing.

Got a hearing aid on NHS over here in UK, free behind the ear one. Would probalby cost abotu £1000 to buy it, don't use it that often but its there if I want it.

I found a price list of what it costs the NHS and its unbelievable how little each aid costs them about £80 each, so you can imagine the markup each private company wants to charge.

You got to factor in the usually free consultation staff etc and that is what anyone who goes private has to pay for.

The echo is not as bad now in my ear, and I feel that my hearing can be affected by how much sleep I get and what stress I am under.

As well as that I have heard of some people who have difficulty getting the right settings and programs on their aids and learn to program their own.

Martin57

The down side of web hearing aids are, no final eye ball to eye ball fitment and adjustments. We had no problem whith either. Should we have the need, the local Hansaton dealer will perform a complete service for $80.00. Also the online dealer will have them reprogramed @ no cost if we choose to send them back. The aids were orderd and paid for with a C.C, the exam.was e mailed, the factory did the set up and mailed us direct. I would do it again.--Leon

John, I have a musican friend with a severe hearing loss. He was very small, trained with special forces to help rid the cong. (IN THAT POLICE ACTION) (HUM) of the caves. His first day of action was his last. A gernade rid him of most of his hearing. The V.A. refuse a partial pention, or even recognize that he was even in Vietnam. 43 years later he was awarded 80% disabality including anything necessary for his hearing loss. His last set of aids cost some one 8 grand. He, at one time had total recall of musical notes. Now he hears the root in the right and some thing totaly different in the left. Listenting to music is not possible with both aids in. The old analog aids will not cause this, because they do not talk to each other. If he had recieved professional help back in 1960 somthing maybe,just maybe his hearing loss would be less today. If your aids are too strong, your loss will increase. Sorta like the $5.00 reading glasses I am weaaring --Leon

Being UK based. I now use National Health Service Hearing AIds which are fitted behind both ears. The analysis, fitting and batteries were free. Previously for ten years, I purchased hearing aids from commercial companies which were quite expensive but the move of a number of large organisations such as Spectacle providers, Chemist chains etc, into the market place, has kept prices steady. A matched pair, in the medium range, now costs some £800. The costs increases by the number of programs incorporated - usually unused.

The NHS provide behind the ear aids and not those inserted inside the ear. It seems that their research found the "mean time between failure" caused by ear wax and/or condensation, was much longer for the BTE models. My aids are supplied by Siemens and my overall experience indicates that the NHS research is correct. If I lose an aid, then the replacement cost is £80. Compare this against my sister's recent experience where she was quoted £1400 for a pair of in the ear models.

Simple physics of acoustics determine BTE as superior as well. Sound outlet (either by speaker or by tube, deep down into the ear canal, microphone(s) mounted behind the pinna of the ear. Allows more people to be 'open fit' for less occlusion effect, feedback resistance is greater due to the larger distance, etc.

Repair cost is lower because there's no custom nature to the BTE 'instrument' itself. In the ear models have the electronics mounted to a custom fit earpiece - requires units to be sent in for repairs, whilst BTE are simply just swapped out for a new electronics set.

Thank guys, as I do appreciate all the good input and information. I have decided to postpone any investments in hearing aids at this time.

The decision was based primarily on two facts, 1) I am not deaf, I can hear - I just have to ask to have the volume increased a bit, 2) the cost is just not justifiable and I am unwilling to spend the time and effort in research and take the risk for a bargin purchase which is still over a $1000 USD.

So if you happent to meet someone on the street or in your business and he asks you to repeat yourself while using the international sign of holding his hand to his ear, please indulge him, because it may be me.