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#183596 - 12/09/12 07:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2141
Quote:

Quote:

A musician more accomplished than you might suggest the same thing to you regarding your use of BIAB!




Jeeze, is it pick on Dan day here or just a misunderstood comment.


No one was picking on you Dan...just reacting to you!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (12/09/12 07:55 PM)

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#183597 - 12/09/12 07:57 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
Mac Offline
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By now you ought to know how a written comment on a forum can sound to others, Dan.


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#183598 - 12/09/12 08:05 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5483
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

No one was picking on you Dan...just reacting to you!




Reacting, OK that sounds a little more polite. I can appreciate that. Thanks for clarifing.

Actually, JJJ I was following your thoughts when you said, "... the more I think about this the more complicated it seems it would be for you to add this feature and make it intuitively obvious as to how it works."

I have worked with a capo charts within BAIB for a long time and found BIAB already handles the transpostion well. Unfortunately, my two-cents on the topic didn't come across as I intended. Nuff said by me.

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#183599 - 12/10/12 05:45 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MarioD]
FB Offline
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Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 75
Loc: Bréhal France
Hello,
Thanks. I've learned music theory with a piano when I was a kid and it's a little bit far!
The chords that I've mentioned are the intro.
For example, the first verse is: F#m A, E Bm, F#m A, E Bsus2 with capo on the second fret and the last chorus is chord is A C#m G D, A C#m G, D Bm E Bm E and a Bm at the end.
If I follow you, the song could be written in the key of Am? Or D? I'm lost!
That's possible, but I feel it strange.
In this case, I'll check the Am key before entering the transposed chords or check the Bm, enter the chords not transposed and then, change the key for Am in BIAB?
Lot of thanks for your help.
FB

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#183600 - 12/10/12 09:23 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
jcland Offline
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Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 301
Loc: Springfield, MO
I for one agree with JohnJohnJohn. Not everyone who uses a capo on a daily basis plays a guitar. I for one play bluegrass banjo and while the band may sing the song in Bb instead of G, I cannot tune the banjo to Bb otherwise I would be changing strings every song due to breakage. Instead I capo 3 and play out of G, the natural tuning for a bluegrass banjo for the large percentage of bluegrass songs.

When I teach beginning bluegrass banjo, I do not expect my students to be able to transpose from a song traditionally played in Bb into G when they are still just learning the basic rolls.

The ability to 'capo' so the songs at the correct pitch while still displaying the chords as if there was no capo is a long overdue addition to BIAB, especially if it can be song specific after you save it so the parameter loads each time the saved song is loaded. If I can pull up say Salt Creek, a typical beginning bluegrass song, have it play in the traditional key of A while displaying the chords in G would be absolutely great.

The tabbing program TablEdit has had that ability since it was written years ago simply by checking a small box in the options that say Capo Doesn't Affect Notation and it works great.

Let's see this in BIAB in the near future as an upgrade.

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#183601 - 12/10/12 09:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: jcland]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5483
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

If I can pull up say Salt Creek, a typical beginning bluegrass song, have it play in the traditional key of A while displaying the chords in G would be absolutely great.




BIAB has done this for years. Simply enter chords in Key of G then change Key to A, and when it asks do you want to transpose chords, say no. Chords will remain displayed in G but tune will play in A. Have you tried that?

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#183602 - 12/10/12 10:06 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
Kemmrich Offline
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Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1815
Quote:

Quote:

If I can pull up say Salt Creek, a typical beginning bluegrass song, have it play in the traditional key of A while displaying the chords in G would be absolutely great.




BIAB has done this for years. Simply enter chords in Key of G then change Key to A, and when it asks do you want to transpose chords, say no. Chords will remain displayed in G but tune will play in A. Have you tried that?




I just tried it -- but the actual song doesn't seem to be changing key in the background. So it displays C, I say change key the to Eb, but no to transpose chords -- the playback sounds unchanged. (Do you have to stop and re-gen?)


Edited by Kemmrich (12/10/12 10:09 AM)
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#183603 - 12/10/12 10:08 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2141
Dan, did you actually try this? I just entered chords in C (C/F/Am/G) and confirmed it plays in key of C. Then I transposed to E and said no to transpose chords as you suggested. Chords still show as C/F/Am/G. But when I play it it still plays in the key of C.


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (12/10/12 10:09 AM)

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#183604 - 12/10/12 10:14 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5483
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

Dan, did you actually try this? I just entered chords in C (C/F/Am/G) and confirmed it plays in key of C. Then I transposed to E and said no to transpose chords as you suggested. Chords still show as C/F/Am/G. But when I play it it still plays in the key of C.




Well, today being Monday I am on the Day Job, so no access to BIAB, but... I am sure this works as stated. It is one of those old standard BIAB tricks. And regarding regen, I think you always have to do that when a change is made.

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#183605 - 12/10/12 10:32 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
Mac Offline
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Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Transposition feature is one of the few things where we do not have to Regenerate a songfile in order for the results to happen, Dan.

But there are also different ways to Transpose inside BiaB and that can confuse.

Changing the main Key Signature block to another key and clicking "No" when prompted in the little window would leave all chords and note entries exactly like they were displayed in the original key. This feature is handy when you load a songfile that, for whatever reason, was saved with the wrong key signature selected. Quite a few user songfiles that people can download for free seem to have this problem, someone laid out a song in say, Eb, played in a Melody track, etc. but didn't bother to change the Keysig block before saving, most of these will still show the default key of C but at playback will obviously be playing a different key. That "No" checkbox is good for correcting such files when encounterd.

There is another Transpose feature in BiaB, though. Found under the Prefs -> Transpose OR when in Notation View->Options, this one is for viewing notes and chordnames of a song when you are playing an instrument that is not referenced to key of Concert C.

For example, the Bb Trumpet or the Eb Alto Saxophone, where the written C for the Trumpet sounds as a Concert pitch Bb, or the written C for the Alto sax is really a Concert Eb.

As for the Capo procedure, I'm here to tell you that it really could stand a bit of operational simplifying for the user.

And it looks like Peter has already indicated that implementation of that simpler routine is forthcoming. That really would be a good thing IMO, having used BB to teach I'd love ANY feature that would make the generation of charts for the kids to use to practice my examples easier to do. And faster. Without gettng confused in the heat of time issues and the like.

Not all people who enjoy playing the guitar want to go through the process it takes to become a thoroughly CAGED guitarist, after all, and the sheer accessibility of the guitar comes into play here.

The guitar is one of the easiest instruments to pick up and get rather instant results with only a small amount of practice and rote memorization of a few chord shapes, some have a lot of fun and satisfaction from that standpoint and others will eventually dig deeper, wishing to learn the theory of chord construction, scales, modes, etc. -- but the folks who wish to be, well, "folks" in the sense of Folk Musics, and I think there are and should be quite a few who can also discover and use Band in a Box as well, could benefit by having that simplified CAPO adjustment routine. And when and if you stop to think about it, the streamlining of the operation will likely prove to be an asset for the seasoned pros as well.


--Mac
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#183606 - 12/10/12 10:39 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2141
Quote:

Quote:

Dan, did you actually try this? I just entered chords in C (C/F/Am/G) and confirmed it plays in key of C. Then I transposed to E and said no to transpose chords as you suggested. Chords still show as C/F/Am/G. But when I play it it still plays in the key of C.




Well, today being Monday I am on the Day Job, so no access to BIAB, but... I am sure this works as stated. It is one of those old standard BIAB tricks. And regarding regen, I think you always have to do that when a change is made.



I'll be curious to hear back from you after you try this. I have 2012.5 and it does NOT work as you described.

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#183607 - 12/10/12 10:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: Mac]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5483
Loc: Chicago
Quote:


As for the Capo procedure, I'm here to tell you that it really could stand a bit of operational simplifying for the user. --Mac




I do stand corrected. Not only are my eyes and ears going but also a bit of my memory. Sorry for the confusion guys.

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#183608 - 12/10/12 03:07 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: MusicStudent]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7497
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
I tried the procedure Peter suggested, and it worked (Song played in the same key, but the chord sheet changed by the -2 that I entered. )

I wonder if this is new, because in the past when this topic was discussed, I came away with the understanding that the chords in NOTATION view could be changed, but I never found a way at that time to change the main chord sheet without also changing the pitch of the song.

It may have just been added in order to accommodate the non-concert pitch transpositions.. I notice that when I use the new "non-concert pitch" transformation listbox, the value it sets gets inserted in OPT>PREFERENCES>DISPLAY>TRANSPOSE

Although you could manually add ANY number to this input box, the non-concert pitch listbox is just an interface that is pre-coded with some common transpositions. Apparently, what Peter is going to do is add more hard-coded options to the list box so we can visually pick "CAPO-2" or whatever...

But the real capability already exists to do what we're talking about.

The only problem, as has already been noted, is that it is not a song-specific change... it changes ALL songs, not just the current song in which you may be using a capo

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#183609 - 12/10/12 03:48 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: Pat Marr]
Matt Finley Online   content
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17205
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Pat, this is not new. I've been transposing the notation in BIAB without changing the pitch for many, many years. In fact, we periodically see users in the forum who have accidentally turned on the notation transposition and are confused, as there are two different approaches to transposition in BIAB: notation and pitch.

I agree, I think what's being proposed is just to make it clearer to a user of a capo. Right now, the transpose is geared toward instrumentalists who play transposing instruments, but it has always been possible to enter whatever number of pitches is needed.
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#183610 - 12/10/12 03:53 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Entering guitar chords with capo [Re: Matt Finley]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7497
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Pat, this is not new. I've been transposing the notation without changing the pitch for many, many years.

I think what's being proposed is just to make it clearer to a user of a capo. Right now, the transpose is geared toward instrumentalists who play transposing instruments, but it has always been possible to enter whatever number of pitches is needed.




thanks Matt. I wasn't clear about that.

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