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#187332 - 12/30/12 07:02 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 598
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
I have been working with tech support for several weeks on this problem and they cannot solve it. PLEASE if anyone has any ideas, I need them desperately.

Here is the problem.
With the option "pause until midi received" selected, the first note, and only the first note, of a song sounds as soon as I start the song. The song then stops and restarts at the second note when I send a midi signal from my keyboard or press spacebar.
The problem only occurs 20% of the time and seems random - not song specific.
It only happens with songs containing at least one midi instrument, not with all RTs.
It doesn't matter how I start the song, even using the Jukebox to start songs has the same problem.
It doesn't matter which spacebar option is selected.
It doesn't matter whether I use a soft synth or my sound module.
I am using BIAB 2013 but is was happening with 2012 and 2012.5.
Finally, and this really gets me, it happened with 2013 installed on two different laptops both running Win7.

It seems like a signal is getting passed the "pause" option when I press play but if so, why does only the first note play?

You can see why I have run out of ideas.

Thanks
Tony

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#187333 - 12/30/12 07:06 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 13439
What options have you set for lead-in? Normally, the pause play until MIDI rec'd would start the song at the beginning of a 2 bar count-in, which would be nowhere near the first note.
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PG Music Inc.

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#187334 - 12/31/12 08:25 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: PeterGannon]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 598
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Thanks for the response Peter

I never have "allow lead in bars" ticked, in fact every box in that option window is unticked.

If I have "visible metronome 1234" selected then the number "1" is displayed when the first note sounds ie when the problem occurs. If I don't have visible metronome selected then the problem still happens but the number "1" doesn't appear.

The easiest way to demonstrate the problem is to select "pause until midi received" and use the Jukebox on a folder with lots of midi songs. In Jukebox select "preview after 4 bars" and keep pressing the space bar each time a song loads. When I do this about 20% of the songs sound the first note then stop until I start the song with the space bar. If I have "metronome 1234" selected I also see "1" each time it happens.

Thanks
Tony

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#187335 - 12/31/12 08:41 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
megafiddle Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 103
Loc: Fred'burg VA
I can duplicate the problem with BIAB2011.

If I keep pressing F4, the song will wait for a midi signal or spacebar,
but every once in a while it will play the 1st note, then wait.

I never see the problem later in the song though, only at the beginning.
If I stop somewhere later in the song with the spacebar, and restart it
with the spacebar, it always waits as it should.

As you noted, a false midi signal would not play only one note. And a false
spacebar would always have to be in pairs (two space characters) which seems
very unlikely.

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#187336 - 12/31/12 09:53 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: megafiddle]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 598
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
HALLELUJAH!!!!!

At last someone else has found what must be a software problem, I'm not crazy after all. You have described the problem exactly.

Peter, are you following this???

Thanks
Tony

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#187337 - 12/31/12 11:13 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 13439
If you have removed the lead-in, it might be a pickup melody note that you are hearing. It would help if you could give me the name of one of our demo songs that exhibits the problem.
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Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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#187338 - 01/01/13 06:41 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
allis Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 603
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Tony:

Pay attention to the pickup notes, as Peter Gannon suggests. Any note entered or recorded before Beat 1 will be interpreted by BiaB as a pickup note -- if it's accidentally pushed by even 1 tick. That means we can easily put a pickup note where we didn't intend one and can't identify one.

Those who use the count-in measures to set tempo don't encounter what's bugging you, which is why you feel alone with it. Make sure all your first notes are at Beat 1, Tick 1 (or later), and it may go away.
_________________________
Larry
______

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#187339 - 01/01/13 01:52 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: allis]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 598
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Thanks Larry and Peter

I am not sure that the problem has anything to do with pickup notes, pushed notes or not using a count-in because it happens anywhere in a song that I start the playback - not just at the beginning e.g if I double click on any bar it may happen or if I set the space bar to "play from current position" it also may happen. .

I tried using a lead in and the problem disappears at the start but this isn't much help because I don't want to use lead-ins and I sometimes want start a song in the middle.

Larry - how can I have a "note entered or recorded before Beat 1"? Except of course if I start the song at say bar 5 then there is a note in bar 4.

Peter - you asked about a specific demo song. It can happen with just about any song that has a least one midi instrument but you could use the demo song with "dixiland.sty" as an example. Remember that the problem is intermittent - about 20% of the time.

Tony

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#187340 - 01/01/13 02:19 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
allis Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 603
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Quote:

Larry - how can I have a "note entered or recorded before Beat 1"? Except of course if I start the song at say bar 5 then there is a note in bar 4.




A "count-in" measure (Bar 0) before Bar 1 is available for pickup notes. It may contain drum hits for a tempo count-off, and if you record something else during a count-in, it goes in there too.

The first note of a tune is likely to be NOMINALLY on Beat 1 of Bar 1. But notes played a little early (before their measure properly begins) can be problematic. They belong to measure zero, because that's where they are. BiaB is smart enough to adjust for timing errors and show them in notation as you meant them to be. They then look like they're in Measure 1. The timing error is very small, so you don't hear it.

We're speculating that when starting the tune as you do, you are hearing remnants of such early notes. They occur by chance, which would explain why you see your problem only one time out of five. (The other 4 times, the note was on the beat or a tiny bit late.)

Check to see what the actual timing is for a couple notes that are causing you grief. You'd know in two seconds whether you can discard this whole idea or do something to get round it. I bet the notes are occurring at something close to 00:04:119. Change the 119 to 120, and you will probably be all fixed.


Edited by allis (01/01/13 05:31 PM)

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#187341 - 01/01/13 07:42 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: allis]
megafiddle Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 103
Loc: Fred'burg VA
I made a pattern consisting of a single piano note on beat 1.

Problem still occurs. It is less than 20% in my case, maybe 10 - 15%.
I don't hear a complete note though in this case, only a short "blip".
If I move the piano note to beat 2, I no longer hear the "blip", but the
metronome still shows beat one when it occurs.

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#187342 - 01/01/13 08:21 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: megafiddle]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Trying to recreate that here.

Question for megafiddle: What is your sound device and what drivers are you trying to use with that device? ASIO or MME?


--Mac
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#187343 - 01/01/13 08:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Mac]
megafiddle Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 103
Loc: Fred'burg VA
Just using the Microsoft GS wavetable synth.

I'll try some others if I can set them up.

I'm using BIAB 2011, and XP.
This is a temporary setup as I will be using all new BIAB, computer, and Window 7
(new BIAB is on the way), so I didn't set everything up.

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#187344 - 01/01/13 09:00 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: megafiddle]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Your problem just might be due to the huge lag time of the Msoft Wavetable synth, coupled with not using ASIO sound drivers.

ASIO4ALL drivers plus using a DXi synth might clear it up, don't know for sure but is what I'd be trying next (and what I run on the laptop).


--Mac
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PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
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#187345 - 01/01/13 09:59 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Mac]
megafiddle Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 103
Loc: Fred'burg VA
I just got my Roland SD-50 hooked up and running.

Same thing is occuring. In this case the midi output is via USB to the SD-50.

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#187346 - 01/02/13 05:56 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: megafiddle]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 598
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Thanks Megafiddle

You continue to get EXACTLY the same results as I have been getting, literally for years with many versions of BIAB and configurations. I am also currently using a SD-50. It has nothing to do with drivers, or hard vs soft synths (I have fiddled with those ad infinitum) it is a BIAB software glitch. Yes, the problem is very intermittent which makes testing a bit frustrating. You are also right that the noise is usually a "blip" but sometimes it is a single note with all the instruments and it keeps sounding until I hit stop.

It can also happen anywhere I start the song in the middle.

If anyone is wondering why I am plugging away at this, I played a gig over Xmas and every now and then after I announced a song and double clicked on it in the songpicker the song would load and immediately get a load blip or sometimes a continuous note - not very professional.

Peter, are you still following this?

Thanks
Tony

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#187347 - 01/02/13 06:46 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
George Nelson Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 1176
Loc: Scotland
Hi Tony,

I also have found this with BIAB.

My thoughts on this may be way off base but here they are anyway.

Could it be that the sound card is retaining a little bit of sound.
Perhaps the sound card is not being flushed out properly.

I find that it happens more if I stop the song mid stream so to speak, but if I let the song finish it doesn't happen.

Maybe I am wrong but someone with knowledge of electronics can advise.

George
P.S
Here are my computer settings:

Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium

Central Processor AMD A8-3500M APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics
Video Adapter AMD Radeon(TM) HD 6620G
Video Memory 512.00 MB
Screen Resolution 1366 x 768
Sound AMD High Definition Audio Device
_________________________
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit, Biab 2018 513, Realband 2018 5
i7 Desktop Computer.


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#187348 - 01/02/13 11:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
Brallan Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 385
Loc: Los Angeles, CA.
Tony:

Try this, I bet it works:

Open "Prefs" and open "OutputCh". At the top of the box you see "Output Chords?" I bet it is checked... uncheck it.

This ("Output Chords") is a very handy feature which many of us use to drive harmony machines and such which respond to the BB chord changes.

Good Luck!
_________________________
Brad -- My FAWM

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#187349 - 01/02/13 02:20 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
Andrew - PG Music Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Victoria, BC
Does it happen if you use the Coyote WT DXi synth, instead of the Microsoft GS Wavetable?
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Andrew
PG Music Inc.

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#187350 - 01/02/13 06:45 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Andrew - PG Music]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 598
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Quote:

Does it happen if you use the Coyote WT DXi synth, instead of the Microsoft GS Wavetable?



Andrew and Mac
I had another go with Coyote WT DXi and although it doesn't eliminate the problem completely, it now happens very infrequently. I gave up on soft synths because I could never completely cure the latency problem. I like the song to start in total sync with my keyboard as I play the first key and I could never get this zero latency at the start of a song. With an external synth this is never a problem. I now have over 500 songs arranged for the patches in my SD-50 so Coyote WT DXi is not an option for me. In any case it would be nice to use BIAB without this problem for both hard and soft synths.

Quote:

Could it be that the sound card is retaining a little bit of sound.
Perhaps the sound card is not being flushed out properly



George
That's a interesting idea so I did tests starting a song after letting it end naturally compared with stopping it in the middle. Unfortunately it made no difference to my problem.

Quote:

Open "Prefs" and open "OutputCh". At the top of the box you see "Output Chords?" I bet it is checked... uncheck it.




Brad
Thanks for the suggestion but I have always had the box unticked

Has anyone at PG done a test to observe the problem? The easiest way is to
1)Load the demo song with Dixiland.sty
2)Use an external synth or Microsoft GS Wavetable.
3) Select "pause until midi received" in the prefs'
4) Mouse around the song double clicking on bars and pressing the space bar to start and stop the song.
You should find that around 10-20% of the time you double click a single note sounds but the song doesn't start until you press space bar. Some of the time the note may actually stick on, sounding continuously.

Many thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate them.

Tony

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#187351 - 01/03/13 09:32 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: First note of song sounds when I press "play" even if "pause until midi received" is selected [Re: Tony Wright]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Tony, there is a very good chance that use of ASIO sound drivers, such as the free ASIO4ALL.exe, coupled with using a DXi MIDI synth, regardless of whether the songs involved are all Realtracks or not, may solve your problem.

Use of the Microsoft synth and the standard windows MME sound drivers is a recipe for all kinds of huge latency problems. I don't know what's under the hood inside Band in a Box, but have "been there and done that" regarding the kind of issues you are having. My theory, and that's all it can be without getting deep into the compiler, which we don't have and is precluded legally by the licensing agreement anyway, is that whenever the program has to "call" the very slow Microsoft synth, which I think happens every time we start a song, the doggone thing takes too long to get ready and the internal timing of whatever is happening "under the hood" causes that pesky playing of one note beforehand.

The fact that it is rather random as to when and which song it happens on seems to add credence to that theory. Sometimes resources and timing of CPU, etc. are available and ready and able to process in time, other times not.

Anyway, when I'm using Band in a Box on my laptop and don't want the extra hassle of hooking up one of the USB afermarket "recording" sound devices I have, which have their own ASIO sound drivers, I just use the ASIO4ALL driver, permanently installed on c: drive, and it has worked very well over the years, eliminating problems such as this one before they can rear their ugly head, also eliminating *other* problems, such as long latency when trying to play keyboards, softsynths, even hardware synths to some extent (hardware MIDI itself is very fast, of course, but still can succumb to Interrupts and other things in the Windows System and PC timing scheme on occasion, creating a hiccup. ASIO sound drivers attempt to create an Audio Stream that does not get interrupted by such OS and CPU calls. That's why Steinberg designed ASIO sound drivers in the first place.


--Mac
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