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#187691 - 01/01/13 02:00 PM [Off-Topic] Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ?
Joe V Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: NYC
Please share your opinion.

Mine is that they generally don't understand the product, and how useful it can be in learning music theory, and learning one's instrument. In my opinion - no other product compares, and one would think there would be a copy in every music institution there is - and that almost every student would have a copy. Probably that's not the case - and perhaps it has to do with PG's marketing ?
How old are you ?
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 01/01/13 01:59 PM
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#187692 - 01/01/13 02:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Joe V]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6505
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
My opinion is they don't care because "our" music is ancient history to them. PG just added some Euro dance styles and that may bring in a few younger people but just go on Youtube and check out the demos for other DAW's especially Abelton Live. It's all about DJ's doing beatz, loops, hip hop and all that. There's a market for our "real" music but it's relatively small and fragmented. Almost forgot. Dubstep. Do you have any idea what that is? Search it on Youtube. You'll love it and while you're loving it try to imagine Biab creating something in that style. Also note the number of hits for those videos vs the number of hits for anything we might like.

While I may be decending into a bit of snarkyness here, I actually like some of that stuff. Some of it is very creative, it's just so completely foreign to anything most of us here have even heard of much less become a fan of. Oh yeah, check out Jordan Rudess and Dream Theater. No possiblity of any Biab style from that either.

The thing is all these styles of music taken as a group are maybe 75% of the total market that's why there are no 20 somethings here.

A lot of these kids are still schooled players but they're going to learn music in the style they like just like we do. Would you want to learn music by playing old 20's Charleston stuff?

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#187693 - 01/01/13 02:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: jazzmammal]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18866
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Quote:

20's Charleston stuff




Great, now I've got THAT in my head all day ..
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#187694 - 01/01/13 02:39 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: jazzmammal]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7519
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
the "regulars" ARE all older, but that doesn't mean there aren't young users.

I'll venture several guesses why they aren't here:

1) this forum is moderated and fairly civilized. In my forum-hanging days, it was my experience that young people gravitate toward totally uncontrolled forums where they can say and do whatever they want. This forum would not allow that.

2) It doesn't take long to figure out that the "regulars" are older. What kid wants to hang with gramps? Kids want to be where their peers are, not their parents and grandparents' peers.

3) BIAB assumes that the user has some knowledge of music theory. A generation of latch key kids raised by single parents who never got music lessons has gravitated toward software like FStudio, where the rules of music never come into play, as long as they can drag loops

4) BIAB stands alone as a music software product that caters to older styes of music that don't appeal to MOST kids (though there are exceptions)


standard disclaimer:
the opinions expressed here about stereotypes of young people are reflective of the OP point of view. PGMusic and its employees neither endorse nor support the opinions set forth in this post

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#187695 - 01/01/13 02:47 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: rharv]
Don Gaynor Offline
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Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 7861
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
I still recall Steve Jobs marketing strategy of getting Apple computers into the schools, even at a loss. That gave Apple a huge, younger customer base but the long term affect was skewed by the lack of software for the platform. That may no longer be the case.

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#187696 - 01/01/13 05:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Don Gaynor]
carkins Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/30/10
Posts: 349
I think you hit the nail on the head with the word "marketing".
In my opinion (and a few others judging by the wishlists)if PGM wants to attract a younger audience it needs:

1. The much requested modernization of the user interface
2. A possible streamlining or simplification of the feature set.
The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) acronym would probably be best with today's need for instant gratification
3. More modern styles and loops focusing on what the younger generations are into.
4. A youth oriented name change which could apply to this new, modified "lighter" version of BIA/RB. I kinda like "RealBand Studio" myself:)

This "lighter" companion version could be used as an introduction to the full blown program we all know and love.

Except for the new UI and the addition of some more modern styles, all the pieces are probably already there under the hood.
It may even be possible to ship the full blown program under the new name which could have features unlocked as it was upgraded or customized by the users.

Not knowing the economic situation of PGM and what they want as far as market share, it may not be cost effective at this time but may become a necessity if they want to bring the kids in.

Carkins

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#187697 - 01/01/13 05:21 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: carkins]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
I've noticed that maybe one in six of the younger set love to read the printed word.

There may be a lot of 'em texting about such things.

r u bb?

bb?

u no app band

gud 4 u?

'k roflol


--Mac
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PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
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#187698 - 01/01/13 05:37 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
floyd jane Offline
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Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 5980
Loc: Florida
ROFLMAO.

dude, u r wth it!

(That was very funny <<< old guy talk).
_________________________
125+ BIAB Songs

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#187699 - 01/01/13 05:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
MountainSide Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 1032
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Wonder if there is any correlation between fewer younger users, in general, involved in music and music production and the de-emphasis of music in our schools. I think so. I look at my nieces and nephews, they never had the exposue nor opportunity to be involved in music the way that I did. For them, it was all about sports. Music was something to do when "hangin".
_________________________
Win10x64, Intel i7 7700k, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB 2018v516, RB 2018v5, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express XT, Yamaha DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive Touch, Kontakt 5.7 SampleTank 3.7

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#187700 - 01/01/13 05:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: MountainSide]
Kemmrich Offline
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Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1815
Young people don't don't like insanely long titles in forum threads. Have shorter, more concise thread titles and more young'ins will appear.
_________________________
Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

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#187701 - 01/01/13 06:36 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: MountainSide]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7395
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
If you want to see the flip side of this forum demographics, go to www.kvraudio.com forum.

I think there are many reasons, have voiced them here, only to be lambasted as to why things are fine as they are. The following is the short list of my perceptions - whether well-founded or not:

1. PG is likely still just known at the BIAB company, which for most persons in the younger set, has little relevance to loop-based music creation/production. It's the domain of cover song, 1-man-band musicians.

2. The advertisements in print magazines still fall very far behind professional graphic design. People always have, and always will judge a book by it's cover.

Contrast:
http://www.pgmusic.com/index.html
http://www.image-line.com/documents/flstudio.html
http://www.steinberg.net/en/products/cubase/start.html
http://www.avid.com/US/products/pro-tools-software
http://www.reaper.fm/
http://www.acoustica.com/mixcraft/
http://ntrack.com/

Nearly all have a video demonstrating main features. Some mix new with existing features. Steinberg's site looks similar from a graphic design standpoint, but most of the others look 'younger'. Hard to put specifics on what I mean here, but the graphic design looks more current. The main image on PG's BIAB site: http://www.pgmusic.com/css/gfx/pgbanner2013.jpg simply looks like it came from a clip-art package - plain and simple.

The 'chart' font shown on BIAB features, is going to look strange to those that have never seen a chart before. That's a whole lot of people buying and using music software these days. Some are calling themselves 'producers' more than they are calling themselves musicians. Some are both. Most are creating music from a different mindset than learning how to best generate "Moon River", with which GM sound source to get the most realistic backing tracks.

3. The graphic design of the user interface seems nearly unchanged from the 1996 version that I started on and perhaps going back to before then. There was an update where there was given a choice of instrument icons for the track 'markers', which is available on GarageBand, but not most other DAW software. Most other more popular DAW software looks more current from a color choice, button design, graphic design, etc. Should this matter? - no - but the judging of the book by it's cover behavior is still in play.

4. PG's descriptions of it's products are somewhat behind the times. This is the descriptive text for PowerTracks Pro Audio: "PowerTracks Pro Audio is a full-featured, multi-track music sequencing and digital audio recording program. PowerTracks Pro Audio includes powerful and unique features such as: The Audio Chord Wizard, which automatically and accurately figures out the chords from MP3/WMA/WAV audio files, the TC Helicon Vocal Harmonizer to add harmonies or pitch correct your audio tracks, and RealDrums which allow you to instantly generate audio drum tracks that are real recordings of drummers - not single drum hit samples but full recordings lasting 1 to 8 bars."

Note-the words "Digital Audio Workstation" or even DAW, do not appear. It's still referring to 'sequencing'. DAW has been the more known term for at least 10 years. 'Sequencers' go back to Dr. T's era.

For BIAB, the main page does not describe the main thing that it does, but is a running list of updates. For existing users, great - for potentially new customers - very confusing. http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.htm

What is the main thing of BIAB, it's core purpose? If you hit the main BIAB page, you have to dig to find what it does. The front page is the 'new features' but doesn't address the one main thing that BIAB/RB do: Accompaniment Generation, either via Real Band tracks or MIDI. That's it's main 'cool thing' that separates it from anything else on the market. The front page for that product should make that loud and clear. Advertisements should make it loud and clear - and simple.

In actuality, when hitting PGmusic.com, it should be something like this page, with a little bit of interactivity, and less text but more graphics to demonstrate how it actually works: http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.features.htm That page tells what it is but way too wordy. No video demonstrating function as the main feature of the page. Big mistake. Too much reading, not enough 'seeing'.

I think Mountainside's comments probably have some effect on it as well. Exposure to traditional music appreciation and understanding is waning. jazzmammal hit on this from a different angle as well

Bottom line as to jazzmammal's comments - the generative aspect of music these days is not about entering in a chord sequence and picking a style. That's a really cool thing for traditional songwriting, but for less traditional music, it's not really there. The production of the sound is as much of the process as the layout of the chords. Experimentation outside of the box, not in the box, is what people say they are looking for - though there are formulaic elements in these newer styles as well.

-Scott btw, in my 40's closer to 50 than 40.

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#187702 - 01/01/13 06:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: rockstar_not]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA

Everything Scott listed up there does serve as a very good filter to keep the trash out...


Just sayin'


--Mac
_________________________
PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
www.audiominds.com

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#187703 - 01/01/13 06:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18866
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Keyboard; you owe me a new one for that
this one is soaked
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#187704 - 01/01/13 06:59 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: rharv]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Probably the biggest deterrent to new users of ANY age is the lack of a SYSTEMATIC FREE video tutorial that covers BIAB and how to use it. You get video tutorials included in the “Everything Pak”, but they’re woefully inadequate.

You can fork over $39.00 for “BIAB for Bozo’s, Vol 1 & 2”, in order to get started, but while Vol 1 is a good starter, Vol 2 spends 30 minutes on manually entering notation. WTF?

If there were a 10 hour tutorial for BIAB, then I wouldn’t use even one minute of it on notation and how to enter it manually!

JMHO, the video tutorials are created from a developers POV. Peter should hire someone to create videos from a users POV.

It’s one thing to create a great program like BIAB. It’s another thing to throw new or inexperienced users to the wolves when it comes to figuring out how to use it.

Why aren’t there many young users? (Many options, … here’s mine). There’s not a half way decent video tutorial for the program, especially for new users.

(P.S. Pat, I know you’re THE BIAB cheerleader, (Peter should have you on salary, if he doesn't already), but there are legitimate complaints that people have about the program).
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#187705 - 01/01/13 07:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7519
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

Keyboard; you owe me a new one for that
this one is soaked




nevah...
EVAH...

drink coffee while reading Mac's posts... he'll surprise you.



Quote:

(P.S. Pat, I know you’re the BIAB cheerleader, but there are legitimate complaints that people have about the program).




I know. These complaints and observations have been around for a long time.

But if you watch the statements I make in defense of the product, you'll notice that I take pains NOT to negate anybody's opinion. I may express an opposing opinion, but I firmly believe we are all entitled to an opinion that stands as your opinion and doesn't even need to be defended (as opinion)

My usual tactic, especially since many complaints take the form of "I can't do (fill in the blank) because this program sucks" is to point out a way that it CAN be done.

But this discussion is not about somebody whining about what he can't do. This discussion is about public perception, and on THAT topic whoever happens to be speaking is the best authority on his perception.

STAYIN'-OUT-OF-IT-O-METER
0___________________/_100








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#187706 - 01/01/13 07:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Pat Marr]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Pat,

You made a better point on another thread when you mentioned “I don’t how”.

Let’s see how to fix this! …

Maybe some half way decent SYSTEMATIC tutorials!
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#187707 - 01/01/13 07:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Pat Marr]
MusicStudent Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5511
Loc: Chicago
I run into BIAB in other music forums I frequent and have to admit it is beginning to get much better press due to word of mouth then a few years back. Lots of folks saying good things, and these are coming from a different cliental/demographic.

But let me share one which I thought was very interesting as it seemed to hit on something. Now don't go off on this . I present it as I feel it was well written and presented its point in a very honest, respectful and coherent manner. I know PGMusic has not asked for this opinion, but they have also not indicated that they do not want it either. And it is relavent to this thread.

There will be no guessing on who wrote it.

"...its introduction of RealTracks was a massive leap forward. It's got many unique, clever features and deserves to be taken seriously. There's no other composition aid that can hold a candle to it.

But it's its own worst enemy. To be terribly frank, as a program it's a ginormous Christmas tree of aged core code with many new baubles added each year. The user interface is very old fashioned and reminds me of something designed by the tent crew of a circus in terms of buttons and colours. It's not intuitive and is a mass of menus. So it looks amateurish which totally belies its ability to produce very professional results. A total rewrite is way overdue. The musical bias is way out of touch with today, and leans heavily on old jazz and country, with some of the nods in the direction of music of the last thirty years embarassing. Its loyal user base is also aging and the proprietors seem oddly content with that. If it was brought up to date in terms of interface and styles it would be an absolutely killer tool that no one would want to be without, and would be first in a field of one with all the success that entails. "

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#187708 - 01/01/13 07:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: MusicStudent]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Dan,

Quote:

To be terribly frank, as a program it's a ginormous Christmas tree of aged core code with many new baubles added each year. The user interface is very old fashioned and reminds me of something designed by the tent crew of a circus in terms of buttons and colours. It's not intuitive and is a mass of menus. So it looks amateurish which totally belies its ability to produce very professional results. A total rewrite is way overdue. The musical bias is way out of touch with today, and leans heavily on old jazz and country, with some of the nods in the direction of music of the last thirty years embarassing. Its loyal user base is also aging and the proprietors seem oddly content with that. If it was brought up to date in terms of interface and styles it would be an absolutely killer tool that no one would want to be without, and would be first in a field of one with all the success that entails.





100 +'s.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#187709 - 01/01/13 07:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: MusicStudent]
MusicStudent Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5511
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

...Its loyal user base is also aging




Hey, I resemble that remark!

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#187710 - 01/01/13 08:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: MusicStudent]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2174
I also notice BIAB being mentioned in forums and almost every time it goes something like "what an amazing program but the interface is terribly outdated". My personal feeling is similar. The "tent crew of a circus" comment cracked me up but unfortunately rings true. And I agree with the comment about the musical bias being out of touch. Elderly jazz players is probably not gonna be a huge market going forward. (Absolutely no offense intended toward jazz players of any age!!)

As I have mentioned on another post, the tutorials appear to be last updated in 2006, about 12 versions ago. New videos, of the current or most recent version, included for free along with my $469 purchase would be a lot more appropriate.

But then again...I find myself asking why exactly we should care about all of this? Once you go through the BIAB learning curve you are able to create some pretty amazing music. The output is extraordinary even though the tool is not in tune with the latest software standards. I understand why PG should be concerned about all of this because not keeping up with the times is usually not a good thing for long-term survival. But why do we care as users? Wouldn't making BIAB easier to use make our lives harder as more and more people started using it to compete with us?

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(click on the title to play the video)

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