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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 288
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 288 |
Any of you guys using a Bose L1 of some sort? Which one you using? This gear seems like the answer for me as BIAB giger and flute player.
Kind of pricy but if it works not that much is it?
I would be very interested in anyone's practical experience with this family of products.
G
Intel i5, 8 GIG, M-Audio NRV10, M-Audio BX8's, Cubase, BIAB, Win 7
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392 |
I've been using the L1 Model 1 for over a year and can't say enough good about it. I can't tell you how many times management and/or audience members have come up to compliment on how great the sound is...including our last gig.
We've used it in as big a venue as 5,000 sq. ft. with no problem. For a big outdoor gig, it might not have enough volume so I've used my Mackie 750s for that sort of thing.
The Model 1S is newer and I'm not sure exactly what differences there are.
The Model 1 has two channels that are controlled via a hand held "mixer" with Master Volume, Channel 1-2 Volume and 3 bands of EQ. There are 2 additional channels but they can't be controlled by the remote and I've never used them.
But you can buy an additional module that has 4 channels and a TON of instrument/mic/guitar EQ patches and some effects if I recall correctly. (The basic model has "only" about 80 EQ patches and no effects.
I don't have that bigger module because I run through a mixer. Here's my set up.
1. Mackie 4 or 12 channel mixers depending on the band.
2. I run all instruments except drums into the Mackie and then use the Headphone Out (which on the Mackie is a FULL MAIN Out...not dumbed down one to save people from blowing their eardrums!!) (-:
3. From the Headphone Out I go into Channel 1 of the Bose and set that channel's Trim to Unity gain and then control volume from the individual channel sliders on the Mackie.
4. That leaves a free Channel 2 on the Bose and that is where I plug my wife's mic...who isthe singer...so I control her volume from the handheld Bose remote which I velcro on the table next to the Mackie. I only do that if I need an extra input channel.
5. We set the speaker column about 6 ft. behind the band and it is TRUE that you don't need monitors AT ALL. What you hear from 6 ft. is almost identical to what is being heard at 60 ft. and only about 10% louder than what is heard from 150 ft!
6. And it is TRUE that the sound disperson arc is at least 170 degrees and in fact, as a guitarist and sound guy, I have been positioned BEHIND the speaker column and heard everything just fine.
7. The quality of the sound reproduction through the Bose Line Array speake stack is AWESOME and at least as good as the sound through the Mackie 750s.
8. At first, I used only one B-1 subwoofer which ships with the system and for smaller gigs that was fine for either elec or standup bass. But for larger rooms I use 2 B-1s which daisy chain into the Bose inputs. There are even specific EQ patch settings for various kinds of elec and stand up basses.
Again, I can't say enough good things about the system and I expect the newer Model 1S is even better and certainly is lighter but the original Model 1 can't weigh more than 50-60 lbs TOTAL...and actually does set up in 10 minutes even with my added mixer in the loop.
Please feel free to PM me with any other questions you might have. But the Bose tech support team is AWESOME. I've never waited more than a minute to get connected. And they are all musicians who use the Bose systems regularly on gigs.
Best,
Jim
Last edited by av84fun; 05/01/13 07:49 PM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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Joined: May 2000
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I have used the L1 both singly as mono and a pair as stereo with my keyboards and Band in a Box.
Can't say enough good things about the system, great but "nonintrusive" full quality sound, extreme portability, very easy setup and teardown, extreme ease of operation, which eliminates the problem of trying to be both soundman and performer while onstage at the same time.
The only thing that detracts somewhat from the L1 systems is the purchase price, which is substantially higher than other more conventional "PA" offerings, but that said, what you get is a different approach altogether from the less expensive "boxes on poles" PA systems.
And venue managers, owners, etc. really love the difference in sound quality, the L1 can be heard but not so "intrusive" in operation. The waiters can hear the customers while the customers can easily hear me. Nice.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 142
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2002
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I've used the original version of the L1 and it sounded great. The guy that owned it use to say "You better like the way you sound because that's what you're going to get".
The harder I work the luckier I get.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392 |
Just a PS. We recently used the L1 in a TINY restaurant that seated maybe 75 people. It had 2 rooms...the bar area and the dinner area.
The dinner area was to the extreme right of where we had to set up such that they were on a 170-180 degree angle to the speaker stack.
The bar area...where we were set up...was about 25x25 feet and the closest patron was TWELVE FEET in front of the speaker tower!
The challange was to provide sound to the dining area where the farthest table was 50 feet from us and yet not "move hair" on the people sitting 12 feet from us.
Result...NO problem! The L1's super wide sound dispersion angle (170-180 degrees) provided identical sound to the farthest patron as those sitting at the bar right in front of us.
Just to qualify my remarks, I have absolutely nothing to do with the Bose company.
But as Mac said....it ain't cheap folks. But the L1 is noticeably better in every respect to other single tower PAs like the Fishman Sa220.
No disrespect to Fishman or its users intended...and it is about half the price of the L1 so it isn't supposed to be in the same league.
Best,
Jim
Best,
Jim
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 321
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 321 |
I'm enjoying this discussion of the Bose L1. I'm also thinking of purchasing one. I tried out some of my BIAB backing tracks (on CD)into a L1 this weekend. Everything sounded great except the bass which was much too loud. Unfortunately there is no EQ on that channel for the Bose. I have a portable 4 channel mixer, so I could plug the CD player into one of the channels an EQ that way. Or once I get the Bose re-record my tracks using the Bose as my monitor. Has anyone else using the Bose L1 encountered this?
Thanks
Frank
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392 |
Frank...yes going into a mixer then into one of the L1 channels would solve the "missing EQ" situation. BUT...as you know, mixers like all audio equipment have widely varying degrees of sound quality.
The way to maximize channels would be to go out of the mixer in to one of the 2 L1 channels that does NOT have EQ (channels 3&4) which would leave you channels 1&2 that do have EQ. For those two channels, you would use the L1's remote 2 channel mixer...which I have velcroed next to my Mackie mixer.
BUT, in order to get the most out of the L1, the mixer would have to be "pro quality." Lesser quality mixers just don't have high quality sound output and the L1 can't do anything but process the information it receives.
You can also consider the Bose ToneMatch mixer add-on. (close to $500). It is 4 channels with TONS of instrument and mic EQ presets as well as a pretty wide array of studio-class effects.
But to return to your specific issue....if the bass is too loud on a BIAB file, I don't see how you can reduce the volume of the bass without reducing the volume of the entire song file.
Seems to me you would need to go back into BIAB and use its internal mixer to reduce the volume of the bass and then re-save the file....play it through the L1 and keep tweaking until you get it the way you want.
But I'm reasonably sure that the bass through the L1 sounds louder because it his higher fidelity and it is just processing more "information" than on a lower fidelity PA rig.
Best,
Jim
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 321
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Apr 2008
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 792
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 792 |
Why not simply insert the PG EQ plugin and chop the bass freq's a tad? And then open the BIAB mixer panel and reduce the bass volume? The other thing you need to realise re the Bose is that when the sub is close to you it SOUNDS like it is really bassy, but go out into the room, and the mix is perfect! The thing I did was buy an extension Bose sub cable (20ft I think it was) and position the sub further away rather than 6 feet behind me  Got a good sound then, without tweaking anything By the way the Tonematch is okay, but don't believe ALL the hype that surrounds it. A bit overpriced imho for what you get. Dennis
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 708
Journeyman
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Posts: 708 |
I use two Bose L1 Compacts mainly because they are very good at preserving the great Yamaha stereo piano sound from my keyboard. I run through a mixer with separate left and right channels panned fully left and right. This sounds much better than summing stereo to mono. I agree that the base can be a bit heavy but the mixer fixes that.
Tony
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 792
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Posts: 792 |
Tony that is a result of the samples Yamaha use on the arranger boards. It is well documented that they do not sum at all well to mono. All the other arrangers sum brilliantly to mono, as do Yamaha Synths, just not arrangers.
Dennis
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 708
Journeyman
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Posts: 708 |
I don't own an arranger, I have two P series electronic piano keyboards. No stereo piano sound sums well to mono because you get phase cancellation between the left and right channels. You have to keep the left and right separate and let your ears and brain do the summing.
Tony
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 792
Journeyman
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Okay Tony well yes they (the P series) also have issues with the phase cancellation just the same as arrangers (even the S90ES and S70XS - both of which I owned had issues), and yes there ARE keyboards with stereo piano samples that sum quite nicely  Does it sound as good as in stereo, maybe a smidge not...still no dramas though, as long as it isn't Yamaha... D
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1
Newbie
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Newbie
Joined: May 2013
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The optional T1 module has EQ adjustments built in. Run your stereo tracks into inputs 4/5. Use the zEQ selection on the T1 rotory knob to adjust. zEQ provides Lo-Mid-Hi eq adjustments. you can attenuate down to -15 db. Hope this helps.
Run your Flute into channel 1... pick a preset. I play trumpet/flugel horn, so I use the Trumpet SM57 mic preset. I'm sure there is one that works very well for flute - then adjust EQ, reverb, whatever for effects and to match your stereo backing tracks. The Bose L1 with extra B1 and T1 modules connected to a small mixer and Ableton Live on Mac is an excellent rig for any situation.
Last edited by DreZ Productions; 05/07/13 08:18 PM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 288
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OP
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Posts: 288 |
Thanks for the replies. I went and rented a L1 Compact setup. This is the cheaper of the products, also the lightest and quickest to setup. Cost is about 1000.00 Cdn$
The sound is very good, although I find that BIAB losses a lot of sound quality moving from Stereo to Mono. Would really like to try two of them but that gets a bit ridiculous price wise.
I went with a small mixer, the T1 setup is very pricy and I think the mixer gives me a bit more flexibility in what I can do with it. I have a gig in a week that I will take the L1 along to, looking forward to seeing it run in the real world!
Intel i5, 8 GIG, M-Audio NRV10, M-Audio BX8's, Cubase, BIAB, Win 7
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
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Please let us know how the gig goes.
Thanks,
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392
Journeyman
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This is a WILD GUESS and might be TOTALLY WRONG. But the experts will correct me.
What I am thinking is that if you are using a standard 1/4 inch cable (Tip/Sleeve) to connect from your BIAB source to the L1...or your mixer...then the stereo will be summed in that chord and mono will hit the Li or mixer.
But if you go OUT from the BIAB source with a TRS cable then the sound from the BIAB source will be carried in stereo by the TRS cable into the mixer or T1.
I am reasonably sure of what I'm talking about SO FAR.
But where it gets tricky is whether the "sum to mono" problem will actually take place when the stereo signal hits the L1 SPEAKERS.
What I mean is...here's the question...Is the erosion of sound quality caused by summing a stereo signal into a MONO CORD? Or is the same quality lost because you are hearing a stereo signal through only one stack of speakers???
OF COURSE, you don't get stereo SEPARATION when the sound is heard out of one speaker stack instead of two positioned to the left and right.
But I WONDER of the Bose Line Array speaker technology compensates for that lack of physical separation. I haven't had a chance to call Bose tech support to ask that question yet.
So I just throw out the above as raw meat with the issue being...If the sound leaves the BIAB source via a stereo cable and goes into the L1 is there still a "sum to mono" sound quality problem given the Bose Line Array speaker technology??????
Finally, I know for a fact that there are component devices specifically used when summing a stereo signal to mono. A Google search will return a zillion hits. So MAYBE that is a workaround.
Best,
Jim
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
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I will quite often use only one L1 with BB, laptop, keyboard on a gig.
I use a standard audio cord designed to take an earphone stereo output to two RCA L and R phono plugs. They are plugged into the L1's RCA inputs that are designed primarily for CD playback. This sums to mono through resistors inside the L1 and works just fine.
BE SURE TO TURN THE SOFTWARE PLAYBACK FADER FOR YOUR LAPTOP AUDIO ALL THE WAY UP WHEN DOING THIS. ADJUST VOLUME AT THE L1'S CONTROL. DRIVING THE LINE HARD LIKE THIS IS A MUST IN ORDER TO GET GOOD AUDIO.
Band in a Box sounds good.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 392
Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Posts: 392 |
Roger what Mac says. However, he has an "L1s" the L1 has no RCA inputs.
Here is a comment from an L1 power user and moderator of their forum.
"I have three BOSE L1s. I have been using these for 6 years. Laptop to Mackie 1204 with XLR cables to the BOSE set at 12 o'clock. I do not use the mixer." (he means he doesn't use the Bose mixer)
So, that is essentially what Mac is doing. The above contemplates XLR cables from the Mackie to the Bose but same difference since XLRs carry stereo.
For those of us who use the L1 (not the "s" variation) there are no RCA inputs on the Bose so I do the same thing that the above commentator does....go OUT of the Mackie with a 1/4 in. XLR (via the headphone OUT which on the Mackie is a FULL MAIN OUT) IN to the Bose so a stereo signal IS hitting the Bose circuits.
As I stated in my other post, you don't get exactly the SAME stereo separation as you would get from running two separated speakers but in most live gig rooms, the sounds have so many reflections that only the closest audience hears true stereo separation and the rest of the crowd is hearing music bouncing off so many surfaces that they aren't getting anything resembling the true stereo separation you would expect from your home stereo systems anyway.
So, as long as you aren't sending the music TO the Bose through a plain mono cable (Tip/Ring instrument cable)I just don't think there is a "sum to mono" problem...at least not one that I can hear or apparently our audiences either who ROUTINELY compliment us on our sound being "better than what we ususally hear."
Also....forgive me for telling most of you what you already know but TRIM is critical with any sound system including the Bose. To get the full impact of the system's capabilities you need to set the channel TRIMS so that at performance input volumes, the green light is on nearly all the time with SLIGHT OCCASIONAL clipping (red light).
THEN adjust output (main and channel) volumes to suit your needs. If you don't, you're running an 8 cylinder engine on 6 cylinders!
Best,
Jim
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 708
Journeyman
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Posts: 708 |
My comments about two Bose L1's being better than one ONLY applies to the sound of a stereo piano sample and not to any other instrument. This is because piano samples are "recorded" as stereo from each end of the acoustic piano keyboard, just like your ears are hearing different ends of the piano while you are sitting on the bench to play. All other instrument sounds are emitted from a point source so they never exist as stereo. If you combine the left and right electronically before your ears have the chance to hear them, not only is stereo effect lost but some of the left/right sounds interfere with each other (phase cancellation) and the overall sound quality is degraded. You can hear the same difference when you use the mono output jack on the keyboard which sums to mono inside the keyboard.
I agree that the stereo effect is lost except for a few people in the perfect position but the issue (for piano sounds) is about avoiding sound quality degradation NOT maintaining the stereo separation. The reason that two Bose are so good is due to the "spatial" sound pattern that is very even for everyone in the audience.
I used to be active on the Bose forum and this issue was debated and researched for months on end. Some people (including me) conducted exhaustive tests with different keyboards, one or two L1's and different instrument sounds. The overwhelming conclusions were that
1)Stereo piano sounds are much better through two L1's - assuming you keep the channels separate.
2)It didn't apply to other instruments
3)It didn't matter which make of keyboard you used.
The difference to my ears while playing is dramatic so even if you are still doubtful that it makes any difference to many people in the audience don't we all play better when we sound better to our own ears?
Tony
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
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There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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