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#206621 - 06/16/13 09:29 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Lawrie]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: Lawrie


Hi Pat,
I would argue that while this would seem to be correct, it is because of an artificial, imposed preference.

It is my OPINION that the recording companies have, to a very large extent, dictated the tastes of the buying public by simply not making available anything other than what they want to sell. E.G. where do commercial radio get their source material..?




good point.
I agree completely. Thanks for making that distinction, it makes the discussion more accurate.

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#206639 - 06/17/13 03:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing songs to target them at the marketplace if that is what you want to do. calling those songs "dumbed down" is elitist and unnecessary (sorry Bob!)

likewise there is nothing wrong with being a virtuoso creating music so complex that only you "get" it! calling those songs "dumbed up" ("smarted up"?) would be equally wrong.

we should all create whatever we want without feeling all superior or being made to feel inferior.

so, back to the original question, for me the act of creating music and performing it is mostly an emotional pursuit. if you can connect with folks (or just yourself if that is your goal) and make them smile or cry or feel something then IMHO you have succeeded whether you did it with 3 simple chords or you wore out the neck of your guitar with your amazing jazz hands!

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#206640 - 06/17/13 03:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: Pat Marr
Originally Posted By: Lawrie


Hi Pat,
I would argue that while this would seem to be correct, it is because of an artificial, imposed preference.

It is my OPINION that the recording companies have, to a very large extent, dictated the tastes of the buying public by simply not making available anything other than what they want to sell. E.G. where do commercial radio get their source material..?




good point.
I agree completely. Thanks for making that distinction, it makes the discussion more accurate.



I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (06/17/13 03:12 AM)

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#206641 - 06/17/13 06:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!

Hey John,
I'm not sure if you have a point or not...

On the one hand, in the very early days of commercial recording I would think the recording companies probably concentrated on those performers that were drawing crowds.

BUT, when the "talent scouts" started looking for groups that were cheap to record then they most certainly started dictating taste...

As a f'rinstance, I play in several groups. One is a pretty good Big Band. Many of our audiences include kids who rarely, if ever, get exposed to the music we play. They get blown away by our sound, which is in many cases completely foreign to them.

Big Bands cost to record and to hire - a quartet is wa-ay cheaper than a 17+ piece big band...

Which leads me to my pet peeve: A rhythm section does not a band make - for ME, ya gotta have a front line too wink
_________________________
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You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#206642 - 06/17/13 07:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Lawrie]
GDaddy Offline
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or perhaps..the ever-present solo pianist...especially if he's Bill Evans! i.e. "April in Paris"...a few posts back....
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#206646 - 06/17/13 10:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing songs to target them at the marketplace if that is what you want to do. calling those songs "dumbed down" is elitist and unnecessary (sorry Bob!)

likewise there is nothing wrong with being a virtuoso creating music so complex that only you "get" it! calling those songs "dumbed up" ("smarted up"?) would be equally wrong.

we should all create whatever we want without feeling all superior or being made to feel inferior.

so, back to the original question, for me the act of creating music and performing it is mostly an emotional pursuit. if you can connect with folks (or just yourself if that is your goal) and make them smile or cry or feel something then IMHO you have succeeded whether you did it with 3 simple chords or you wore out the neck of your guitar with your amazing jazz hands!


I should probably stop "talking for others", explaining what they meant... but in this case I will at least say what *I* thought the person meant.

When people talk about "dumbed down" music, they aren't necessarily talking about ALL commercial music, because nearly everything we all like is exactly that.

*I* think the term is used to describe what happens when the music becomes a MUCH lower priority than the money.

I can't verify it, but I've heard of a famous experiment in which a chimpanzee was left in a room with art supplies. He found them amusing and would entertain himself for hours making intricate marks on the paper. So they decided to see what would happen if they positively reinforced his efforts with food. Once he realized there was a link between the scribbles and the food, he'd spend barely enough time to make a scribble before presenting it for food.

IMO, the same thing happens with people. You get different results when art is your passion and when money is your passion. But some people who are good businessmen are also good musicians, so its not true across the board.

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#206647 - 06/17/13 10:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
regarding the studios dictating what the public hears:

There are LOTS of bands whose music could appeal to a large enough audience to make money if their work was internationally distributed and promoted by the fat cats.

I've often suspected that the ones who DO get promoted are those who are willing to sign a really disadvantageous contract. Then the company milks them for the length of the contract, and dumps them if they try to negotiate a better contract

Hopefully the internet is making it possible for artists to promote themselves.


Edited by Pat Marr (06/17/13 10:16 AM)

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#206650 - 06/17/13 10:31 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
floyd jane Offline
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Registered: 08/10/12
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Loc: Florida
"Commercial" is not a dirty word.

Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.

There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.

So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".
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#206652 - 06/17/13 10:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: floyd jane]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
"Commercial" is not a dirty word.

Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.

There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.

So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".








Duck and cover! Duck and cover!!!!!! shocked shocked shocked
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#206658 - 06/17/13 12:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: 90 dB]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".


Duck and cover! Duck and cover!!!!!! shocked shocked shocked


<ScoobyDoo>
   RUH-ROH...ROOKOUT BEROW!
</ScoobyDoo>


Edited by Pat Marr (06/17/13 12:10 PM)

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#206670 - 06/17/13 03:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Lawrie]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: Lawrie
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!

Hey John,
I'm not sure if you have a point or not...

On the one hand, in the very early days of commercial recording I would think the recording companies probably concentrated on those performers that were drawing crowds.

BUT, when the "talent scouts" started looking for groups that were cheap to record then they most certainly started dictating taste...

As a f'rinstance, I play in several groups. One is a pretty good Big Band. Many of our audiences include kids who rarely, if ever, get exposed to the music we play. They get blown away by our sound, which is in many cases completely foreign to them.

Big Bands cost to record and to hire - a quartet is wa-ay cheaper than a 17+ piece big band...

Which leads me to my pet peeve: A rhythm section does not a band make - for ME, ya gotta have a front line too wink


Of course I had a point! laugh Let's see if I can state it real simple for ya...

1) Record companies produce music.
2) People buy the music (or don't)
3) Record companies rinse & repeat based on #2

There is of course no doubt that record companies (like all big business) wanna make the most money possible so they will milk an artist or genre as long as we buy it. But as soon as we stop buying it they move on to the next one. But they do not have a crystal ball or inherent knowledge of what will sell in advance. Nor do they have special mind powers to control what we buy! It is all about watching the trends and filling those needs. Of course it certainly helps them when much of the consuming public are lazy and willing to buy whatever is on the end cap! smile

And with all due respect I personally don't believe the lack of popularity of Big Band music is the fault of the record companies! I think tastes have changed over the years.

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#206672 - 06/17/13 03:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: floyd jane]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
"Commercial" is not a dirty word.

Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.

There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.

So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".


I agree 100% Floyd! It has always bugged me when friends say this artist of that artist "sold out" for commercial success as if there was some imaginary land of righteous music production and to try another genre or target the pop charts was somehow less noble! I always call bulls%#t. So Clapton tried some reggae/pop and produced a nice little hit song. And Fleetwood Mac changed their lineup, abandoned their roots and produced a couple of chart-busting albums. Good for them I say!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (06/17/13 06:24 PM)

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#206676 - 06/17/13 04:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: ROG]
pghboemike Offline
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Registered: 07/13/02
Posts: 2408
my favorite version of this song
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#206707 - 06/18/13 12:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Lawrie Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Hi John,
I guess I'm falling into the same trap as most others do in trying to oversimplify things - there is no one simple explanation for the situation.

Nevertheless:
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

And with all due respect I personally don't believe the lack of popularity of Big Band music is the fault of the record companies! I think tastes have changed over the years.

tastes HAVE changed - and I happen to believe more than a little of the change has been driven by the big labels. YMMV wink

I do think it's telling that younger people who hear us for the first time generally enjoy the genre and start coming back for more.
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#206715 - 06/18/13 02:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2163
Hi Lawrie,

Yeah, me too! smile I'm always hoping for one single theory of music and music business to unite them all!!

It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh

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#206721 - 06/18/13 03:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Lawrie Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
<snip>
Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh


Ain't that the truth! cry wink
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#206748 - 06/18/13 10:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh


I was in a bigband, local, we played an outdoor parks concert near the beach, there was this large crowd of young people dressed like punk rockers there, by the end of our set they were partying to the music something wild.

Looked out there during one of the encore numbers and saw this large group of kids who were pogo dancing and some were even slam dancing to -- "In the Mood"

Stick together guys, we can all sneak out the back way...


--Mac
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#206750 - 06/18/13 10:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7508
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Hi Lawrie,

Yeah, me too! smile I'm always hoping for one single theory of music and music business to unite them all!!

the closest thing I've found to a "unified theory" of music is Peter Gannon's tag line...

Quote:
It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh


<broken record>

which is part of thereason why I'm specifically gearing up to play music for baby boomers. It isn't just recorded music the young 'uns won't pay for. They are conspicuously absent from most of the live music venues I've attended recently. My son says its because people his age would rather stay home and stream netflix.

Boomers, on the other hand, not only pay for their recorded music, they also go out to hear it. (at least, that's been my observation)

</broken record>

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PG Music News
Video - Making A Song in Band-in-a-Box® 2018

Ever wonder how to create a song in Band-in-a-Box®? We start off with the basics in our latest video for Band-in-a-Box® 2018!

Windows users: click here | Mac users: click here

RealTracks Patch Update for Windows Users

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows users can download the latest RealTracks update patch (519) here.

This patch includes some RealTracks audio updates we have made since the release of Band-in-a-Box 2018. 2018 users should be sure to download the latest Band-in-a-Box 2018 update patch (519), as that patch includes the bulk of the fixes for RealTracks released with 2018. This is a larger download than typical because it updates the Vocal Oohs and Aahs RealTracks audio files. There is more information and Audiophile patches available here.

Summary of RealTracks Audio updates:
Improved: There were small issues with the tuning of several Bass styles. This has been fixed for both the original mix and the direct input mix. This affects the following RealTracks:
- Bass, Acoustic, AmericanaSlow16thsByron Ev16 060
- Bass, Acoustic, AmericanaSlow128Byron Sw 040
- Bass, Acoustic, RockabillySwingByron Sw 190
- Bass, Acoustic, BluesyPopByron Ev 100
Improved: Audio glitches have been removed from the ends of phrases in the Vocal Oohs and Aahs RealTracks.

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows Patch Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows users can download the latest (free) update patch (519) here.

Summary of changes:
Added: Additional dialog available for detailed information in the StyleMaker (fields for memo, examples, and other parameters). These are set in the StyleMaker (more dialog, a button called "Style Memos etc").
Added: Help Video button Added to the Audio Harmony dialog.
Improved: ABC opening improvements with some accidentals, and leadin bars that occur in middle of song.
Improved: Audio harmonies now used Improved algorithms, and can be easily set using N voices above, M voices below (and have additional functions like duplicate melody, and dup. melody octave below).
Improved: Lyrics will be now read from .mid files that used to be karaoke files (.kar) and got renamed somewhere along the line.
Improved: Support for RealTracks that should be transposed only lower (ie heavy metal guitars) and for future Improved metal guitar comping.
Improved: The Audio Harmony Dialog has been rearranged to be more intuitive when using Band-in-a-Box Intelligent Mode.
Fixed: Audio harmonies might be missing some notes.
Fixed: Audio harmonies would be generated with the wrong notes if selecting a range of audio in the middle of the track.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box might crash on bootup with error "Read Beyond end of file".
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box should show message if the latest VJT application is not installed when the user tries to render videos.
Fixed: File > Open Special > Open Audio was importing audio instead of opening it in a new song.
Fixed: In the Bar Settings window, "Chordsheet and Notation - Start a New Line" should say "Notation - Start a New Line".
Fixed: It was not possible to record audio using WAS audio drivers if "Output always on" was disabled.
Fixed: Misc. RealTracks updates.
Fixed: Quicklist drums picker sometimes showing too many drums in the list.
Fixed: Redundant flash messages were showing.
Fixed: Removing a custom drums from a track would still display Drums as the name of the loop in the track.
Fixed: Rendering audio while there is a region of bars highlighted in the chord sheet might cause a crash.
Fixed: Saving a MIDI file would fail unless saving as type 1.
Fixed: Some 12-key RealTracks were incorrectly set to allow transposition.
Fixed: The Audio Harmony dialog needed some hints.
Fixed: The Audio Harmony dialog was missing the new Band-in-a-Box Intelligent Mode.
Fixed: The VJT application should print out its version number in log files.

Tutorials - How to Install Your Band-in-a-Box® for Mac Hard Drive

When you have your Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac UltraPAK shipped to you on a portable hard drive, there are a few different options for installation. We go over these 3 options with our latest video series:

Option 1: Run Band-in-a-Box® directly from the USB drive only: click here to view.

Option 2: Install Band-in-a-Box® on your computer hard drive, but leave the RealTracks & RealDrums on the USB hard drive: click here to view.

Option 3: Install Band-in-a-Box® and the RealTracks & RealDrums on your computer hard drive: click here to view.

Check out all our Band-in-a-Box for Mac videos here.

Video - Downloading and Installing RealTracks Sets for Band-in-a-Box® for Mac

Have you purchased your Band-in-a-Box® package, and want to make sure you're downloading and installing the RealTracks Sets correctly?

Well, we've created just the tutorial video you're looking for! Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac® - Downloading and Installing RealTracks Sets.

Video link:
www.pgmusic.com/?vid=QndXu8H_IwM

Thoughts on Band-in-a-Box® 2017 - Mac Power Users Discussion

David Sparks and Katie Floyd discuss a variety of topics in their recent episide of Mac Power Users: https://www.relay.fm/mpu/432 - listen all the way through (and laugh along with them - it was a very entertaining episode!), or jump to 1:37:40 where David shares his thoughts on Band-in-a-Box® 2017 for Mac!

Thank you David and Katie!

Polish New Features Video for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows

Our Polish Distributor, Sound Station, has finished their Band-in-a-Box 2018 New Features summary video (in Polish!) - click here to watch.

We hope all our Polish Band-in-a-Box users find this video helpful - thank you Sound Station!

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