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How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? #209367 07/12/13 09:20 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC J Joe V OP Expert
OP Joe V Expert J Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC	I will probably never write a song where I have to worry about this - but I might be curious if a song I wrote ACCIDENTALLY violates someone else's copyright. So I thought I'd open a discussion with the following questions. How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Who determines this and when ? For the sake of discussion, if the first 2 notes of George Harrison's opening notes to "My Sweet Lord" were put in opposite order - would that have excluded it from the copyright infringement claimed by the Shirrels in "He's So Fine" ? For those intentionally looking to reuse the influence of a copyrighted melody, is there a quantitative way to change it to eliminate the possibility of violating a copyright infringement ? Are there any software tools that can help with this ?

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209368 07/12/13 09:45 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,311 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,311 York, England	Quote: Who determines this and when ? It's all subjective, but ultimately the courts decide. You only have to look at history. ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209377 07/12/13 12:24 PM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Changing the note names likely would not change it enough, it isn't a one-input problem. Note values, timing and rhythm play a very significant role, and don't overlook that songs that have lyrics, the lyrics are also copyrightable, too. As for your given example, this should show the why of the decision: My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209380 07/12/13 01:08 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,101 Mobile, Alabama KeithS Expert
KeithS Expert Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,101 Mobile, Alabama	Ultimately a single grace note is what decided the MSL/HSF case against Harrison. Keith 2024 Audiophile Windows 11 AMD RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,Cakewalk,Raven Mti

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209382 07/12/13 01:20 PM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	I think you mean, "pickup note" rather than Grace Note. Since there aren't any Grace Notes heard in either song. PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209388 07/12/13 02:05 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC J Joe V OP Expert
OP Joe V Expert J Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,129 NYC	Thanks for your feedback. This IMHO, while not maybe the most interesting 'legal' question - as ROG said ultimately courts decide. But I think it interesting from a computer science and artistic sense. When big $$$ and lawyers are involved, the first winners are always the lawyers. They make a nice dime regardless of the people they represent, and are smart enough to only take 'slam dunk' obvious outcome cases pro-bono. When you write the laws, it's great that you can define the business in such a way that you pretty much always make money. If the case is in court - obviously some money has probably been made already, and aside from the person making the money on the song - everyone else has not so much to lose for being involved in such a case (this could be another interesting discussion for an entirely different website : ) But with regard to copyright and patent infringement for that matter, my feeling is that ultimately the winner is based on a subjective decision that may have some 'sound' (pun intended : )reasoning behind it with respect to a stated law that will be very broad, general, and vague with respect to the particular problem at hand. This is because as Mac said, determining copyright violation is at best a 'fuzzy' problem based on 'fuzzy' variables and therefore ultimately 'fuzzy' laws. Music is becoming more and more a 'science' in terms of how it's generated and the way it affects us emotionally...not that it wasn't a science before, it was just a generally less understood and less quantitative science. The ability for the 'science' problem of codifying rules to generate pleasing music sequences that people would like to listen to is paving the way - granted it will be a while before a program like BB/RB is paired with a composition tool that allows it to 'write' things that for today, people (probably on this very site) will insist cannot be placed by a computer. And while the thought of writing a copyright test program to compare to mp3 files and spit out a "Yes" or "No" to the answer "Does song B violate the copyright of song A ?", thinking about how one would TRY to write such a program would certainly lead to some interesting insights about the art and science of music. Just my 75 cents worth of ponderings. Feel free to ponder back : )

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209396 07/12/13 03:52 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Joe, this isn't really something to worry about ahead of time unless you are blatantly copying right out of the gate. Go write and record your songs. Look at it this way, a whole pile of folks are using RB/BIAB to generate accompaniments. There are going to be similar guitar riffs, backing of various instruments, etc. as a result. IF someone gets famous using the autogenerated stuff, it will sound a heckuva lot more alike than the the Satriani vs. Coldplay case: http://andyontheroad.wordpress.com/2009/09/13/joe-satriani-v-coldplay-settles/ http://dockets.justia.com/docket/california/cacdce/2:2008cv07987/432491/#20090909 If you are really concerned, copyright your stuff. It's not hard nor expensive. I would say there's not much to worry about until you get fabulously popular. By then, if you aren't paying a good lawyer, shame on you. Just don't blatantly copy somebody's work knowingly. -Scott My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209398 07/12/13 04:06 PM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	The first hurdle to jump in cases of copyright infringement is simple enough. Unless and until your work makes serious money, you are unlikely to get much more than the Cease and Desist letter. And, if you are in the wrong, you should do what that letter's title says. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Mac #209436 07/13/13 08:00 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,101 Mobile, Alabama KeithS Expert
KeithS Expert Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,101 Mobile, Alabama	Originally Posted By: Mac I think you mean, "pickup note" rather than Grace Note. Since there aren't any Grace Notes heard in either song. What I meant was to quote Judge Owen's Opinion and Order in the case of Brite Tunes Music Corp v. Harrisongs Ltd. He concludes in his order that a "grace note" possibly added by Billy Preston and included on the lead sheet was what brought him to decide that Harrisongs infringed BTM's copyright. Keith 2024 Audiophile Windows 11 AMD RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,Cakewalk,Raven Mti

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209438 07/13/13 08:16 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,102 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,102 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	That last post by Mac was what I was going to add. On the other hand, if you recognize that you are accidentally copying another's work, you should give yourself the "cease and desist" order. Just for ethical purposes. I once wrote the melody to an instrumental blues song while messing around on the flute. Never really published it, but continued to play it every once in a while simply because it was fun. Or I thought I did. Then I went to a used record shop and bought a Dave Brubeck LP that I owned when I was a child but lost when I went on the road at 18 years of age. Well to my surprise, when "Maori Blues" started playing, there was my 'original'. Of course it wasn't exact, but I'd say at least 80% there and the first 8 bars almost verbatim. You can revive things from your musical past, and not even realize it. So I issued myself the "cease and desist" order, but for another year or two, still messed around with variations of "Maori Blues", with a tip of the hat to Dave Brubeck. I don't know of any software that can even give you a clue as to whether the song you wrote is an unconscious ripoff or not. And to add to some of the subjects touched upon in this thread. I don't know if science will ever be able to analyze what makes a song good and put that to use. After all, what's good to one isn't good to another. I recall going to a symphony where the last piece was a Shostakovitch symphony (#9 I think). I love Shostakovitch, Prokofiev, and many of the other composers of the era, but on the way out Leilani and I heard someone grumbling about the last piece saying it was trash. On the other hand, I don't care much for Mozart or Bach, but I do recognize their genius. Why do I love Dvorak but am usually bored by Brahms? Brahms did so many clever things in his music, that I am awed by his craft. But for some reason, the music is pleasant, but doesn't thrill me. Why do I like Beethoven's 4th and 7th the best but don't really care for the public's favorite, number 9? I like the sax playing of Stan Getz but another certifiable genius, John Coltrane's music doesn't often speak to me. I love Thelonius Monk, Gene Harris and Dave Brubeck on the piano for entirely different reasons. Hiromi Uehara is fabulous, but her music doesn't move me. I have dozens of Muddy Waters and Bobby Bland cuts on my iPod, but only a few Howlin' Wolf or Otis Spann. And I don't know why. I could go on but you all are probably bored by now. The point is, there are only two kinds of music. Good music, and music written for somebody else. What appeals to me is personal, and it may have something to do by the way my brain is 'wired' or developed during the childhood years of plasticity. But not directly by what I listened to, because some of the music my parents played I love, and others I didn't care for. I guess these are the things the scientists are investigating. I think what makes a hit record is more about promotion than about content itself. Not that content isn't important. But content changes. Al Jolson, Glenn Miller, Duane Eddy, and other genres from the past wouldn't make it today, because they are simply out of fashion. If you played any modern Rap music before it became in style, you would have been jeered off the bandstand. When working for Motown, Berry Gordy gave the songwriter in our band the same famous advice he gave everybody. Write something close enough to today's hits to be familiar, but far enough away so it isn't a copy. And I'll add this: The rest is in the promotion. To get back on track, Mac's advice stands. If you make a fortune on the song, you can afford a good lawyer. If you don't, probably no one will care. I hope you make the fortune, enough money to buy the copyright of the song you are innocently infringing on. Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209442 07/13/13 09:12 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca.	I've read a few of these court cases and what stuck me about them was the musical knowledge of the attorneys and judges. Love em or hate em, attorneys are highly educated people who have interests just like everybody else. Most of them handling music related cases minored in music or are even grads from big name music schools, realized there's no money in it and then switched to law school so a lot of music copyright attorneys and judges do know what they're talking about. Some of these cases really dig deep into the music school level of melody analysis. It isn't just some subjective opinion about what something sounds like. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209460 07/13/13 11:44 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Hizzoner can way what he likes, many do, which may be part of our problems, but unless and until someone can point to Grace Notes in either of the two recording in question, I stand by what I've already said, which is, "I can't hear any Grace Notes" in them. Pickup Notes, I hear. Grace Notes, no. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209472 07/13/13 01:38 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,101 Mobile, Alabama KeithS Expert
KeithS Expert Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 1,101 Mobile, Alabama	As with many cases in court, its what you put in writing that ultimately make the difference. The published written music both showed a grace note on the staves and that is where the court made its decision. The rest of the song was considered to be too common to have been a violation of copyright but the single note added to them was not. Keith 2024 Audiophile Windows 11 AMD RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,Cakewalk,Raven Mti

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209486 07/13/13 04:27 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	And to all that I say: Joe V, record your song - don't delay. Get it out for us to hear what you have to play. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209508 07/14/13 03:34 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,492 Schleswig-Holstein, Germany GHinCH Expert
GHinCH Expert Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,492 Schleswig-Holstein, Germany	Not to soften all other replies: The melody closest to an original rewarded with copyright is "Happy Birthday to You". The original "Good Morning to All" differs from "Happy Birthday to You" very decisively after the first quarter note for the lyrics pat "Good" was replaced by two eighth notes to resemble the two syllables of "Happy". The rest of the melody is supposedly identical. Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Joe V #209520 07/14/13 06:53 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,102 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,102 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Good Morning To You was in public domain. You can rip off the melody from anything in PD and it's OK. Take Dan Fogelberg's "Same Auld Lang Syne" - the melody of the verse is the same as Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture". No problem. There are dozens of other examples, but that was the first that came to mind. Zeppelin uses "Mars" from "The Planets", Deep Purple quoted Dvorak, Barry Manilow quoted Chopin, Procol Harum quoted Bach, and the list goes on and on. I suspect that if you put new words to "Happy Birthday To You" you would be legal (note: I'm not a copyright lawyer - try this at your own risk). In the end, if it's not PD, it's all about the best lawyer convincing or not convincing a jury. Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement ? Notes Norton #209537 07/14/13 09:30 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,814 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 20,814 Hamlin NY	FWIW- “How close does a melody have to be to another to be considered copyright infringement” is directly proportional to skill of your lawyer. Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up. Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work. 64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

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