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#21146 - 04/25/09 09:47 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Using Garritan JABB with BIAB
bharris Offline
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Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
I have followed the instructions here and elsewhere on the web to assign Garritan JABB instruments to the various channels in BIAB, and for the most part this seems to be working very well. However, I cannot get any melody tracks to sound, even though I can hear the bass, drums and piano. The songs I am trying to listen to are definitely ones with a melody track. In addition, some standard midi files that I open do not have any sound at all, which I assume is also related to this issue as I understand these files are loaded into the Melody channel, channel 4. For example, I assign a sax to channel 4, which I understand is the channel the Melody usually is on, but I can't hear any sax (or melody). Can anyone help me figure out why this might be? I am using BIAB build 2007.5 (239). Is it possible that the Melody for a song could be on another channel? Should I keep trying to assign the sax to another channel until I hear it? Thanks!!

Also, I am using JABB as a DXi plugin.


Edited by bharris (04/25/09 09:49 AM)

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#21147 - 04/25/09 10:24 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
MarioD Online   content
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 10965
Loc: Hamlin NY
Hi bharris, I do not use JJ&B in BiaB, I use it in Sonar, so I may be wrong here but be sure BiaB is not sending a patch change command. If it’s sending a patch change that doesn’t match with JJ&B it may not sound. You can check this either with the midi event editor or by going to Options/preferences/midi options/channels.

Also many standard midi files are not really standard. That is the originator adds patch changes, continuous control messages, pitch bends, etc that are indigenous to his system. They may or may not work on your system. Many times I have to play with standard midi files to make them sound right on my system. This will be especially true if you’re trying to play them using a non-GM DXi/VSC like JJ&B.

I hope this helps.
_________________________
The only exercise I did this month was run out of money!

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

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#21148 - 04/25/09 11:33 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: UK
Hi bharris

You will have to go into JABB to find and alter it's melody channel (whatever it is) so that it allows it to play from BIAB channel 4 - once you have had success then save the set up (as say BIAB1) so that each time you open JABB you can load that saved set up

You could alter BIAB Melody channel from 4 until you find the channel that plays in JABB but this then disrupts your default workings in BIAB
jazzman
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

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#21149 - 04/25/09 11:44 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: Jazzman]
bharris Offline
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Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
Thanks everyone. Jazzman, how do I go into JABB and alter its melody track? Do I do this through the standalone Kontakt2 player?

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#21150 - 04/25/09 12:21 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: UK
Hi bharris

I do not use JABB anymore since RealTracks/Drums but I think that you do it in JABB - someone will know here

But I do remember this happening and it is because of the difference in JABB which was not GM compatible - in other words channel 4 in BIAB may be channel (say) 7 in JABB - you just have to locate whateaver channel it is but do not change it to 4 - EXAMPLE BIAB melody channel 4 - this plays another channel in JABB say 7 - as long as you save the correct "mismatch" setting it is easy
jazzman
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

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#21151 - 04/25/09 12:55 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17253
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Quote:

Thanks everyone. Jazzman, how do I go into JABB and alter its melody track? Do I do this through the standalone Kontakt2 player?




It's been several years, but Yes. You have a pull-down on each instrument to specify the channel.
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BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac Pro]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb RAM; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & 6" monitors.

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#21152 - 04/25/09 01:51 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: Matt Finley]
bharris Offline
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Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
But when I do this and assign a sax, for instance, to channel 4 (which I understand is the melody channel normally used by BIAB), I do not hear any sax on songs I know have a melody. If I am understanding correctly (and please keep in mind I am very new to midi), Jazzman is saying that BIAB should still stay on channel 4, but I have to change something within JABB (from whatever JABB currently uses as its melody channel to channel 4). Is that correct? If so, how do I do this?

Further to Jazzman's point, I have the midi mapping in BIAB (under opt/audiomidi setup) set to General Midi Misc., which BIAB said should be usable for all sound cards. I only saw one Native Instruments choice there, and it was not for JABB or Kontakt2. Is there a map specific for JABB available that I can download?

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#21153 - 04/25/09 04:08 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: UK
Hi bharris,

We are at cross purposes - BIAB Melody channel 4 - if JABB is - say - 7 then that is the "mismatch" = BIAB 4 plays JABB 7

Do not change the supposed 7 in JABB to the 4 of BIAB

You will have to go by trial and error - but someone else here may tell you the correct channel in JABB but it won't be 4

You said earlier that you were using JABB as a DXi plug-in so you will not find it under Synth/Soundcard - you should find it by hitting the VST/DXi Synth Settings bar and you shound find in that page that opens, the correct driver in the top dropdown in that page

It can be frustrating to sort out that is why I dropped JABB and went back to midi instruments and then to Realtracks/RealDrums after they came out
jazzman
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

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#21154 - 04/25/09 05:57 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: Jazzman]
bharris Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
Please excuse me for being dense (again, I am new to BIAB and JABB), when you say "go by trial and error", you mean that when I press "see DXi settings" in BIAB and the Kontakt2 player opens up showing the JABB instruments that I have chosen, I need to go to the instrument I want to play the melody (let's say the alto sax), and try changing its channel in the drop down box to a number other than 4 (probably a number other than 2 (piano), 3(bass), 10 (drums), etc.? Is that correct? In other words, I should just keep changing the channel of the sax (maybe a channel from 11-16?) until I hear the sax playing the melody in the song?

Thanks again everyone for your assistance.

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#21155 - 04/26/09 02:54 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
jazzband Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 1826
Loc: Kent UK
Hi bharris

On tips and tricks there was a thread about using JABB with BIAB and i put how using VST as it was better then DXi one thing i did mention that if you just use instruments to play the back it was fine but when i started to play the extra tracks ie melody and soloist i had trouble my system just did not allow it

since then i have changed all my system aroundbecause i was have problems and now find JABB will not play atall every thing looks as though its working the midi is moving in Kontact 2 on all the chasnnels but i am not gettin any sound what so ever, weather something has changed with the later versions of BIAB i don`t know and thats why i gave up trying and changed to Ketone SD2 where you dont get any problems atall

I was hoping that the new ARIA that Garittan have produced was going to be the anwser we where all looking forward that JBBB and GPO would be a lot easier to use but has not happerned as we can not get hold of ARIA unless you buy something you don`t need if you have JBBB and GPO you can not get get hold of Aria which i think is sad

I spent many hours trying to get them to work and PG did a lot of work trying to get them to be compatible and upto a point they succeeded but when you get a modual that you plug in and it works just like that what is the point in spending for ever try ing to make something sound as it shold without much sucess my veiw is that your wasting your time ,time is for making music not m trying to make it sound better and not getting any where because i have not got the knolwledge to do so

regards Dave Hoskins
_________________________
I always play the right notes but not always in the right order

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#21156 - 04/26/09 04:19 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6486
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
You guys are confusing this issue. It doesn't matter what channel either Biab or Jabb is set for each instrument as long as they match each other . You can go into Biab properties, click on the channel tab and make them anything you want. In other words, you can set Biab to put the drums on channel 1 if you want even though the GM standard puts them on 10. You then put the JABB drums on 1 and so on for each instrument. Usually people keep the Biab channels set to the GM defaults and change their synths to match because if you start changing the channels in Biab, something will come up, you don't do anything with Biab for a few weeks, load in a different song maybe using the VSC and all your instruments will be messed up. All this confusion is the main reason people simply give up using non-GM synths with Biab. Styles don't always use the same instruments and you can spend time setting up JABB for one particular song, it sounds great, but you decide to just change the style for fun and oops, that one doesn't use guitar, it uses electric piano or whatever and you have to go into JABB and set it up for that channel manually just to hear what that style sounds like. Biab will use the same channel for multiple instruments depending on the style. That gets old after a while and most of us simply use a GM synth like the softsynth Forte or the hardware Ketron SD2 and forget about it. That's the beauty of GM, all the instruments match from one piece of software or hardware to another.
A sequencer like Real Band where you can use multiple synths is much more appropriate for JABB than Biab is.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#21157 - 04/26/09 05:09 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: UK
Hi bharris

Yes that is correct - once you have found the channel the melody is on in JABB with your alto sax - save the configuration and then every time you open JABB you can load that saved confiuration

One caution - it is a long time since I used it so I might have things around the wrong way but I do remember that it did not work channel by channel

Also check that the volume for the melody channel in JABB is not muted or tuned to zero

There is not a bug but the way both programs work and once you have it then it is easy
jazzman
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

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#21158 - 04/26/09 07:27 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: Jazzman]
bharris Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
Jazzmammal - I think I understand what you are saying. Why, though, if BIAB usually puts its melody track on channel 4, should I not be able to simply set my alto sax (or any other instrument) to channel 4 and hear the melody? That didn't work for me before, and now I am trying different channels for my alto sax in JABB while keeping the BIAB melody channel set to 4 in the hope I will hear the melody line. Or, should I try an oddball, unused channel like 20 and set both BIAB melody and JABB alto sax to that?

Another question - why is Real Band more appropriate for JABB than BIAB is? What does the ability to use multiple synths have to do with the issue? Does JABB work perfectly with Real Band?

Finally, isn't this a question for PG Music? I mean, they sell both JABB and Personal Orchestra right on their website, presumably for use with BIAB? Has anyone contacted them directly about this? Maybe there is a bug in BIAB, or maybe it is a simple matter of getting PG Music to have a special JABB listing under synth/soundcard rather than "General Midi Misc." that one could choose that would send the signals on the proper channels.

Thanks, everyone, again for helping me figure this out. It seems to me there is no reason at all that these two programs should not work together.

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#21159 - 04/26/09 10:36 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: UK
Hi bharris,

If you use DXi/VST it converts midi into audio so then it bypasses the soundcard "General Midi Misc" setting which is then controlled in the DXiVST page and the dropdown driver options

jazzman
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

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#21160 - 04/26/09 10:49 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: Jazzman]
bharris Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
Thanks, Jazzman. Do you know whether it bypasses the soundcard "General Midi Misc." setting if I use VST also?

Has anyone tried using the Garritan PO Studio with BIAB for this purpose? It says on the Garritan website that it can be used with virtually any (notation) program that supports MIDI. Shouldn't this solve the problem regarding JABB not using General Midi? Granted, it's not as convenient as using a plugin, but if it works that's all I really want.

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#21161 - 04/26/09 10:55 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1457
Loc: UK
Hi bharris

DXi and VST use the same page which bypasses that setting

Can you find the "SteinbergDXi" driver for use with JABB which should be it the DXi dropdown - if it is installed

PG Music - "The DXi will convert the MIDI information to audio, which Band-in-a-Box will playback through your sound card to audio speakers". So-- as the VSC DXi converts midi to audio you have to change and select the Steinberg drivers to get the correct connection


The problem I had was that JABB was not GM compatible and therefore did not guarantee a match with a GM program like BIAB - BIAB is not at fault

jazzman
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

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#21162 - 04/26/09 11:15 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
jazzband Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/02/02
Posts: 1826
Loc: Kent UK
Hi

when i first started using JBBB you got a stand alone studio program which worked better then the VST and DXi and i don`t know if thats still available

Im sorry if i made out you can`t use these programs which you can and the thing that made me change was the learning curve in making every thing sound top notch you go into Garittan`s website and you will hear how good they sound theres a scripting langauge which is used and is very sucessfull i think its me more then JBBB

regards Dave Hoskins`
_________________________
I always play the right notes but not always in the right order

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#21163 - 04/26/09 01:08 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: jazzband]
bharris Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/05/07
Posts: 74
Now of course I can't find the download for a Windows version of Garritan Studio - the links on the Garritan site are not working. Can anyone point me to a link for GPO Studio? Thanks again.

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#21164 - 04/26/09 01:49 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: bharris]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6486
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Quote:

Jazzmammal - I think I understand what you are saying. Why, though, if BIAB usually puts its melody track on channel 4, should I not be able to simply set my alto sax (or any other instrument) to channel 4 and hear the melody?




If the Biab melody is on channel 4, then yes you should hear whatever instrument you have on channel 4 in JABB. But in rereading this thread I'm not clear, are you talking now about a Biab generated song or playing a midi file?
The reason I believe JABB is better used in a sequencer rather than Biab is due to the time it takes JABB to load it's sounds. Biab creates it's own program changes throughout some songs due to the styles. A basic GM synth like the Forte or VSC loads all sounds into ram and they are instantly accessible while large sample libraries that are used by Garritan, Sampletank and many others take a second or two to load and that won't work in Biab. That's not a problem when playing midi files in a sequencer because the sequencer is not creating something new for you every time you hit play. You can look at each track in the sequencer and determine if there are patch changes there or not. If, for example a guitar track changes from an acoustic sound to an electric sound, the procedure is to split that out to a separate track so the acoustic sound is playing for the whole track for one part and the electric sound is only for the other part on it's own separate track and midi channel. That allows your synth to load up the sounds before you hit play because the synth can't handle the program change while the song is playing. You can't do that in Biab.
I agree with your comment that PG doesn't make this clear on their page. They imply that JABB should work great with Biab but don't actually say it. As was mentioned above, there have been threads about this and I can't remember now but I think JABB can be made to work with Biab but it's a real pia. Maybe your best bet is to contact support.
Again, almost everybody simply uses a GM synth in Biab but for your final polished sound, save the file as a midi, open it up in a sequencer and there you can reassign the tracks to whatever sound you want using whatever synth you want. This is the main reason for the creation of Real Band btw, but that's another whole discussion. RB is a hybrid of both Biab and Power Tracks Pro Audio and all this works great. Check it out.
Another thing, Biab only has one midi output port so one synth has to handle everything. A sequencer has 16 midi outs, one for each channel so you can use multiple synths in combination, both hardware and software.
Also, you're using the term soundcard and sound interchangeably. They're not. A modern sound card is the physical interface routing the sound from your synth out to your sound system. Except for some Creative ones soundcards do not have any on board sounds, your hardware or software synth handles that.

Bob
_________________________
Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#21165 - 04/26/09 02:44 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Using Garritan JABB with BIAB [Re: jazzmammal]
mmosc Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 104
The Phrase Modeled Performance JABB GM Multi will switch the JABB instruments in the K2 player on program change messages. For example if the soloist is set to channel 8 in BIAB and you have a Trumpet & Sax solo the multi will play the correct instrument without changing BIAB's channel assignments

Freely available at link in my signature
_________________________
Mike

Mike's K2 Scripts

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