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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Hi all,
As a hardcore music lover and perpetual student (that has a demanding day job), I've turned some attention toward playing piano. Having worked at guitar for many years, some things I thought I would do differently the second time around on guitar, which I am trying to do on keyboard, is:
1.) spend MUCH upfront time learning chord progressions, at least a couple of fingerings for the major progressions and scales, with MINIMAL time learning to read music (I can already hear some of your responses on this one - you know who you are : )
--> the idea hear, at least given my personality, is that ,I got lost in reading music and theory to the NEGLECT of playing the instrument, learning songs, and actually ENJOYING the instrument - it became too academic for me
2.) spend SOME (but less) daily time, learning to read music
3.) do NOT get bogged down with 2-handed, very independent playing (e.g. virtuoso classical stuff) - instead spend time on training the ear to recognize chord progressions and their accompanying scales, and applying them in songs
Toward this end, I've discovered 2 books I thought were very useful - "How to Play Piano despite years of lessons", and from the "Visual Approach Series" : 'Chord Construction, Learning to PLay through Shapes and Forms (which actually does relate all shapes to the Staff)
Finally, my questions:
1.) For anyone that moved from initially learning guitar for many years, than to piano - what books/methods/exercises did you discover most helpful and work through consistently ?
2.) Is the idea of 'position playing' on piano similar to guitar - that you have a certain set of fingers dedicated to certain keys on the keyboard for different scales, or is there much more movement from which fingers begin different chords (e.g. I guess there would have to be, but I'm not sure how to work on this).
3.) I've noticed some pictures in chord books where to hit a white key, the fingers are placed between black keys - is there any general guideline to when this is done ?
Thanks in advance,
Joe
Last edited by Joe V; 11/02/13 05:08 AM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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For me it was the other way 'round, started on piano at very young age, complete with lessons, didn't even THINK about a guitar until around the age of 12 or so.
So I don't think I'd have much insight into doing it from the other standpoint, at least as to methodology.
I will state this, though:
There are MANY great improvisational musicians who have played instruments other than piano who insist that knowledge of the piano keyboard is something that the aspiring and working musician should pursue.
As a result, many fans may not realize just how well some of them could play the piano, knowing them only from the aspect of their wellknown target instrument.
Dizzy Gillespie, the great trumpet player who had a hand in the invention of BeBop - and may have been the guy who named it as well - was a fantastic piano player. He used the piano to figure out things, compose, find out what modes, scales, chords, etc. worked over what changes and stated that he wrote several of his well known Standards at the piano, often by finding something on the keyboard that led him to turning it into the entire piece.
Arturo Sandoval, the great Cuban trumpet player also plays piano so well that he has released albums of his piano playing as well as the many albums featuring his amazing facility with his first instrument, the trumpet.
Joe, you like books and magazines.
For any beginning piano player or keyboardist, I recommend getting hands on the following books:
The Schmidt Piano studies
The Czerny
The Hanon
Those three are all about fingering really, and can, if used properly and practiced, prevent the problems that many self-taught keyboardists have to overcome, such as the dreaded "running out of fingers" due to not knowing how to properly finger a scale or run in a certain key.
The piano keyboard represents a "Number Line" in which all the notes are laid out in a row, and each note is only in one place, unlike, say, the guitar.
I can't imagine how those who don't know the piano keyboard envision the ins and outs of theory and harmony without it. (Of courae, there are those that do, that's not the point.)
Obligatory sidebar "Mac-Story":
I once read that a very young Wolfgang Mozart, at somewhere around age of three, was caught by his musician father sitting at dad's piano, something that just about every child does after first seeing and hearing and adult play and then gaining access to the keyboard.
But in Mozart's caae, he was not doing what most toddlers might do, such as happily pounding out sounds.
He was very thoughtfully playing one note with one finger of one hand while playing another note with one finger of the other hand.
His father demanded to know what the little boy thought he was doing, and this is what Wolfie told him:
"I'm trying to find the notes that LIKE each other!"
And that is what it is really all about.
--Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Thanks so much for the great advice Mac - I will check the books out. I can see where having a single note instrument (like trumpet) makes it very difficult to learn and understand harmony - the instrument itself limits your exploration of such. I will also share that the fact that the keyboard fingerings aren't "Movable" as the guitar's are leads to a deeper appreciation for Key Signatures and Chord Tone differences, at least for me.
Last edited by Joe V; 11/03/13 04:35 AM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joe, I think I'm between you and Mac - I learned piano via Fingerpower, some Czerny, some Schaum, and hard-core learning of classical pieces that took me forever.
Then my teacher caught me noodling out some Journey tunes from the early 80's and asked why I was playing those.
That started me down the road of chord theory.
In 1985 I started self-teaching guitar and played pretty much open chords.
In late 80's I had learned pretty much how to comp on piano with gospel/praise music chord charts. One very crucial learning for me on this was chord inversions. Even the simplest major, minor, dominant 7, major 7 and minor 7 chords are a good place to start.
Learn 'all three' for each of them. Just like you can make chords across the fretboard for most I IV V songs using 'simple' chords, you can do the same on piano/keyboards. BUT, you need to know the inversions. You can probably play the 1 3 5 version of most chords. Get your hand used to the 3 5 1, and the 5 1 3. (these being the triad components or whatever the right terminology). Take note of how to jump from the 3 5 1 of the I chord to the 1 3 5 of the VI chord. Get your hand used to that. Interplay all of these and pretty soon you'll have your hand practicing the 'path of least resistance' between the various common chords and inversions. These are all pretty simple for me now, including add2 sus4 chords. Now I'm starting to learn some jazzier chords as well, but it's taking time.
I have been able to translate some of this over to guitar, by getting my mind out of Barre chord mode and using simple 3-note chords in several different positions and moving between these inversions with minimum fretting hand movement. I STILL need to really learn my fretboard, after playing all these years. I have the bottom 4 strings and the top e string (from playing bass these past few years - you have to know the fretboard), but that pesky b string still is somewhat of a mystery!
Also look up Scott the Piano Guy Houston on PBS and on-line. His method, would pair nicely with your goals. I kind of self taught myself some of what he teaches.
-Scott
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Scott,
You've nailed exactly what I'm working on right now. And it's really not at all so simple. It takes quite a while to learn the 4 chord types in all keys, and to move between the 3 inversions for the most common progressions ( say even only the I, IV, V and the II, V, I) of the major scale - in a timely (e.g. fast enough to jam and noodle while sounding musical). The motor control and memorization takes far longer than the 'conceptual' understanding of how and where to move.
Sometimes I think we musicians overemphasize learning things in ALL 12 keys (no doubt a good goal and one to gradually work towards) and I could see why - we want to be ready to play any song we come across.
But I think we often understate the importance of learning how to do many different things in one single key. How many musicians are playing the modes in all 12 keys from 2 to 2, 3 to 3, etc, without knowing how to switch them within the same Key Signature - and realizing how different they sound as we compare 'apples with apples', so to speak.
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Joe, I didn't mean to say that this is simple, but you'll get the hang of it.
Start with something simple, the I IV V progression in C.
I find these inversions to be 'easiest on the hand':
C: E G C, using 1 2 and 5 of the right hand.
Move to the Root of F:
F A C, using 1 3 5 (note the pinky did not move)
Also note that 2 and 4 of your right hand are ready and waiting over two notes of the G chord but use the D G B inversion with your thumb on the D.
Your wrist might move one inch to go back and forth between these three chords. Switching back and forth between the G and C, and you see that your index finger is anchored on the G.
The finger that sees the most movement in this arrangement is the thumb. But it's hardly any movement at all.
It's even less movement in the 'flat' keys, which if you play with a band with horns, you'll be getting a work-out on the Eb, Ab, Bb and F chords. Same deal though, use the 3 5 1 inversion of the key signature chord and you can find that you'll move with ease between these before you know it.
I guess when I watch my hand, I'm almost always forming either a thumb middle pinky chord or thumb index ring chord.
Works for minor keys as well.
If you ever play gospel or rock organ, those notes that are common are often held between chords, not lifting them up.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 11/04/13 11:15 PM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Sometimes I think we musicians overemphasize learning things in ALL 12 keys (no doubt a good goal and one to gradually work towards) and I could see why - we want to be ready to play any song we come across.
But I think we often understate the importance of learning how to do many different things in one single key. How many musicians are playing the modes in all 12 keys from 2 to 2, 3 to 3, etc, without knowing how to switch them within the same Key Signature - and realizing how different they sound as we compare 'apples with apples', so to speak.
Be careful, though, because far too many find out how to play in a key and their development simply stops right there. All things in moderation is a good way to think. By all means work one key more than the others. But at the same time, don't neglect transposing what you've learned, one key at a time. Avoid the all too human urge to look for shortcuts that don't exist, or the wish to get it all in a short amount of time expenditure. After all, if it was that easy, there would be no point to it. Anybody and his brother or sister could be good musicians instantly, and that would put the whole thing in an entirely different cultural viewpoint. --Mac
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I too started on piano at around 7 and moved to guitar at 14. I soon dropped piano lessons and continued self taught on guitar.
I would suggest spending the time to find a local piano teacher and work with them for a time..... for the length of time you need to accomplish what you really seek. A piano teacher will get you up and running and help you avoid the mistakes and things that will bog you down, simply because you may not know better.
Find one who will work with you on reading as well as playing by ear. Some refuse to accept playing by ear as legitimate. Avoid them. Commit to one year and see where you are in a year.
A teacher keeps you moving and learning by requiring you to practice and learn things for the next lesson. Accountability.
My teacher leaned towards reading and classical stuff but also made room for the pop music of the day as long as I had the sheet music for it. She also did encourage playing by ear as long as you could read as well. She taught me a lot about theory.... something few would ever learn on their own and theory is very valuable.
Have fun.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Find one who will work with you on reading as well as playing by ear. Some refuse to accept playing by ear as legitimate. Avoid them.
+100 Things are getting better along those lines, though, as aging rock, blues, pop and jazz keyboardists are spotted offering lessons, even in some of the local music emporiums, and these people are teaching in the real, things they often had to find out on their own. The old ladies with the picture piano book methods that only taught sight reading and didn't even know theory and such, much less able to teach it, are dwindling - and that's a good thing. Local colleges are also a good place to find music teachers, if not one there able to do it, often is the case that they can provide a reference to someone outside. I've encountered far too many over the years who won't hesitate to spend mucho monies on instruments and equipments, yet for reasons unfathomable to me will balk at spending a few dollars a month on private lessons that would make all the difference in their usage of all that expensive stuff. Runnin' rings around that guy with the multi-bucks custom boutique flattop on yer old cheapie Yamaha plywood top is always fun... --Mac
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Find one who will work with you on reading as well as playing by ear. Some refuse to accept playing by ear as legitimate. Avoid them.
+100 Things are getting better along those lines, though, as aging rock, blues, pop and jazz keyboardists are spotted offering lessons, even in some of the local music emporiums, and these people are teaching in the real, things they often had to find out on their own. The old ladies with the picture piano book methods that only taught sight reading and didn't even know theory and such, much less able to teach it, are dwindling - and that's a good thing. Local colleges are also a good place to find music teachers, if not one there able to do it, often is the case that they can provide a reference to someone outside. I've encountered far too many over the years who won't hesitate to spend mucho monies on instruments and equipments, yet for reasons unfathomable to me will balk at spending a few dollars a month on private lessons that would make all the difference in their usage of all that expensive stuff. Runnin' rings around that guy with the multi-bucks custom boutique flattop on yer old cheapie Yamaha plywood top is always fun... --Mac I'll +100 on that as well. Our kid's piano teacher is teaching them to identify chords by ear as well as buried in the classical and other sheet music that she teaches from. She encourages improvisation and composition, playing by ear, playing from chord charts, playing from sheet music. What she's really giving my kids is a full-on music theory education, while learning piano. She encourages and arranges for performance in formal and informal settings (my kids have had recitals at churches, art galleries, and retirement homes). If you lived in Colorado Springs, I would recommend her to you without hesitation. -Scott
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There is a question that I've been asked many times over decades, a question that actually irritates me, but as a performer I try hard to smile and stay nice when it inevitably pops up.
You know, the condescending looking lady (most are ladies, wonder why that is...) who walks up to the piano when I'm performing the improvisational, whether full black gospel in a church setting or jazz in a club, and says something like, "Do you read music or do you play by ear?"
As if the two were mutually exclusive or something.
I usually smile and answer, "Yes, BOTH!"
Then there are those who have made the assumption that since I must be playing strictly "by ear" because there is no music on the pianoboard, who make some ridiculous statement such as, "well I READ music!" - the hidden statement being that yours truly must not be able to read or somesuch nonesense.
"Well, I play Classical music!" -- I don't know how many times some white lady has laid that one on me simply because I happen to be performing with a black gospel group or choir at the time.
The hidden one in that particular statement always seems to be that "Classical Music" is somehow better, more sincere, harder, whatever.
Of course, I keep my Classical Piano repertoire lightly brushed up, just for those idiots... heh
Obligatory Mac Sidebar Story:
The legend has it that a fellow was demonstrating his piano skills in a small theater venue and then invited any audience members to come up and play the piano as well.
At first there was only one young fellow, played a bit of Chopin, wasn't too bad, but he "broke the ice" and soon there were people waiting in line, each with something to play.
All the while, there was this older fellow with long gray hair just sitting in his seat in the front row.
After what seemed an interminably long time of amateur pianists, the pianist who performed the show and had invited the guests to come up and play noticed the old man and asked if he would like to come up and play something.
The old man replied, "No, thank you."
The old man was Paderewski...
--Mac
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Mac, Ok, so here's your problem - you play too well! Otherwise, you wouldn't get the old ladies or whomever coming up afterwards to chit chat - or you have too much good looks and they want a closer look! 
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Ya don't have to look good at all to attract the spinsters. Actually, still breathing 'll do well enough by that stage of the game. --Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joe V,
I think you've gotten some really good advice from the forum folks. Here's my two cents for what it worth.
I picked up the guitar when I was about 13 and learned from a group of friends. We all learned by doing and playing songs we liked. I could only afford one acoustic guitar so I focused on strumming and fingerpicking. So it was all about rhythm and chords.
After playing guitar for 3-4 years, I started tinkering with piano. My high school music teachers helped my learn basic music theory which I applied to the my piano playing. I learned more in those first couple of years than I did 20 year hence. Again, I focused on accompaniment and hardly ever played the melody since I had that covered by singing. I could read music a bit but was mainly just following the guitar chords in sheet music, tabs and lead sheets.
Well, about 25 years of real life and military career that kept me moving every couple of years, I finally put down some roots. I had hit the wall with my piano skills and wanted to do more so I started taking some lessons. Wow, a whole new world opened up. I discovered I actually hand a left hand and ten fingers. I guess all I'm trying to say is that sometimes you need help getting to the next level, be it a group of friends, a well place high school music teacher or a dedicated piano teacher. Self-learning can be a rough way to go and you can pick up a lot of bad habits that keep from getting better.
Good luck and have fun!
SD
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Gentlemen,
As always - thanks for the great advice and helping me discover some great new resources.
Appreciatively,
Joe V.
Last edited by Joe V; 11/08/13 06:37 PM.
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Joe,
Why start with books if you don't want to read music?
I started late on the piano and started with music books but soon switched to online lessons. I particularly like Willie Myette who has a couple of hundred free lesson tasters on Utube. He is a very (very very) good player and a very good teacher too. His stuff covers everything from basics, theory, gospel, jazz, latin, cocktail, blues. Like yourself he is not interested in teaching the classical 'read everything' way.
I started on trumpet the classical route. I could not play a note without a piece of paper in front of me. I then switched to sax the jazz route. I found my reading actually got worse as I found myself memorising everything after a few goes through the head.
As far as Piano goes, if you are considering Jazz, then it may be wise to learn to play treble clef melodies (if you cant already) as this opens up Real Book standards.
One thing I learnt the hard way. Don't confine yourself only to 'straight chords' by which I mean the standard chord and the inversions of, but also add in notes and spread the chord across the keyboard. The sooner you do this the sooner your playing will sound mature. Its a brain wiring thing.
This is called 'voicing'. Voicing and voice leading are very important topics and a good (non classical) teacher can help you with this.
Zero
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Joe,
Why start with books if you don't want to read music?
Because it is simply more efficient. Those who bypass learning to read the dots very seldom ever get back around to going back and filling in what they have missed. Here we may not be talking becoming an accomplished sight reader of the kind who can sit down in front of rather complicated music charts and play them through the first time and have the chart sound pretty much as it was designed to sound, but rather someone who has the basic ability to know at least which note is being depicted on the two clefs of the Grand Staff and the basic Rhythm Value indicators. The ear player, the improviser, the working and performing musician, and even the part time hobbiest will only find benefit through doing it the right way the first time around. --Mac
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All valid points, all well taken. There are many paths to the final destination. In fact, I think we all pretty much agree on all these points - just a little splitting of hairs.
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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
Convenient Ways to Listen to Band-in-a-Box® Songs Created by Program Users!
The User Showcase Forum is an excellent place to share your Band-in-a-Box® songs and listen to songs other program users are creating!
There are other places you can listen to these songs too! Visit our User Showcase page to sort by genre, artist (forum name), song title, and date - each listing will direct you to the forum post for that song.
If you'd rather listen to these songs in one place, head to our Band-in-a-Box® Radio, where you'll have the option to select the genre playlist for your listening pleasure. This page has SoundCloud built in, so it won't redirect you. We've also added the link to the Artists SoundCloud page here, and a link to their forum post.
We hope you find some inspiration from this amazing collection of User Showcase Songs!
Congratulations to the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
We've just announced the 2023 User Showcase Award Winners!
There are 45 winners, each receiving a Band-in-a-Box 2024 UltraPAK! Read the official announcement to see if you've won.
Our User Showcase Forum receives more than 50 posts per day, with people sharing their Band-in-a-Box songs and providing feedback for other songs posted.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed!
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Forums66
Topics81,620
Posts735,177
Members38,517
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Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
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