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#221203 - 11/14/13 10:08 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker

I only regret that you insisted on converting a thankful comment into a contentious discussion.



All I did was ask for those who would like to do something besides just post a word of thanks on a forum to consider doing something about the fact that Veterans who are Christian and may be in the VA hospital system being treated for life-threatening medical issues be allowed access to Chaplains who excercise that which is part and parcel of the Christian faith - prayer in the name of Jesus.

Here is a quote of my post:

Quote:

Those US citizens who would like to help Veterans might want to help us correct situations such as this one.

These are, after all, one of the freedoms we served and fought to preserve, only to find them being taken away from us at the whim of beaurocrats and not the codified law of the land.


The contention came solely from your side of this thing.

I WILL defend, and that is what seems to irk you guys.

You guys don't seem to realize or even possibly know that we veterans took an oath "to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

When we mustered out of service, and thus became Veterans, there was no ceremony nor any form of recension of that oath.

Therefore it still applies.

I for one will not stand silent while hateful types like you guys attempt to illegally stomp all over my God-given rights.

And God-given they are, codified in our Declaration of Independence.

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Do you have any idea how many US Armed Forces Veterans are Christians?

We. Pray. In. Jesus. Name.

And that, and only that, is what the article I posted is about.

It is a simple thing, but it eems to frighten you types into all sorts of emotional outbursts and false claims for some reason.


--Mac
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#221207 - 11/14/13 11:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
KeithS Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 884
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
The story about these two chaplains just did not pass the smell test for me. It just didn't seem like a VA professional who routinely provides education to VA chaplains would behave in the manner alleged in the lawsuit. It just so happens that my sister has been with the VA in Long Beach ever since she finished her stint in the army back in the late 70's. I asked if she had heard anything about this and she said there had been some talk about it, and most of the gossip has said that the two Baptist chaplains went into the class and were being deliberately disruptive and it was in fact they who were harassing other participants in the class.

In a nutshell what I was told was the class was covering being sensitive to the wide range of beliefs that veterans have and that proselytizing while ministering to veterans was not appropriate. It seems that the two baptist felt it was their duty to do so and apparently they squared off with not only the instructor, but their fellow chaplains. The bible quoting had to do with these guys using the bible to back up their position that Jesus expected them to convert people and the opinion of the VA on that matter be damned. After a prolonged period of disrupting the class, they were asked to either drop the confrontation or get gone.
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#221211 - 11/14/13 11:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: KeithS]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Hearsay is not evidence.
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#221217 - 11/14/13 12:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: KeithS]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3351
Loc: WV, USA
Quote:
The story about these two chaplains just did not pass the smell test for me.


It didn’t pass the smell test for me either. The majority of the article comes from the viewpoint of the lawyer for the complainants and he is posturing so I take what he has to say with a grain of salt and there is no doubt a lot more to the story than what’s contained in the article.

Quote:
The VA did not return telephone calls, but they did release a statement to NBC San Diego. The VA said the two men were “bullying other classmates and refusing to honor other faith groups.”


From the goarmy site: http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about.html

Quote:
Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith. The Army is a pluralistic environment. Rabbis, Ministers, Imams and Priests serve our Soldiers with conviction and commitment. While serving their own faith groups in the Army, chaplains also ensure and provide the means for others to observe their own faith in accordance with US law and regulations.


If I thought for one minute that the rights of religious freedom were being denied to our current and former military personnel then I’d start firing off angry emails and phone calls to my senators and congressman. The words of that attorney didn’t convince me that was happening.
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#221226 - 11/14/13 02:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
KeithS Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 884
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Mac
Hearsay is not evidence.


True, but then anything from Fox News is probably spun until whatever truth was there is wrung out. I understand that you felt you had enough evidence to start encouraging people to call their congressmen but the whole story sounded suspicious to me. I have the instructor's email address. I don't know if she'll answer me, but I'm trying to get her side of the story.
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#221227 - 11/14/13 02:39 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2095
One of the most wonderful things about The United States is we do not have an official religion; everyone is free to believe what they want or not believe in any religion if they choose.

And I am also delighted that the de facto standard is changing rapidly so we are approaching a time when there will be no "unofficial religion" as well. I know this is painful for those who believe their religion is the only correct one and have enjoyed being the de facto standard for quite some time.

But this is truly good for our country, a country of Muslims and Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Atheists and Agnostics and Secular Humanists and lots of others as well!


So, if these Baptist chaplains felt their purpose in VA hospitals was in any way to spread their preferred religion then it is a Very Good Thing that they were removed. I would hope the VA would do the exact same thing to Muslim chaplains who wished to promote Islam to our wounded soldiers or Jewish Chaplains who wished to promote Judaism and so on.


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (11/14/13 02:39 PM)

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#221228 - 11/14/13 02:57 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
KeithS Offline
Expert

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 884
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Mac
.....even arrests onto Christians meeting in their own homes for at least two decades and counting.
You can provide an example of Xtians being arrested in their homes for practicing their religion?
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#221245 - 11/14/13 04:52 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Quote:

Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith.


Praying in the name of Jesus is the most distinctive part of the faith.

If Chaplains are ordered not to use Jesus' name, then something is not right.

The article I pointed to is not the first and not the only instance of this kind of thing going on in the US Military, not hardly. Focusing on the one story is not going to help you guys make your case.

As for "honoring the right of others to observe their own faith" -- This too is another herring thrown out by the opposition. Some in this very thread have gone there, talking about what a Christian chaplain must know to do if in a position of having to substitute as a chaplain for another religion. And that has nothing whatever to do with telling a chaplain what cannot be said when ministering to people of that chaplain's chosen faith. Besides that, the substitution of chaplains is a rule for ACTIVE military when deployed or in combat. This is the Veteran's Administration system and veterans are never deployed or in combat, we've already been there and done that. We Christian Veterans just want to be able to have our Chaplains and have them do what our faith requires, which in this case is simply to be able to pray in the name of Christ.

It is speech.

Whenever someone, anyone, who is in a position of authority of any kind oversteps their bounds and attempts the tyranny of censorship -- which is what you guys are advocating, actually -- someone's constitutional rights are being violated.


--Mac
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#221246 - 11/14/13 05:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3351
Loc: WV, USA
Quote:
Whenever someone, anyone, who is in a position of authority of any kind oversteps their bounds and attempts the tyranny of censorship -- which is what you guys are advocating, actually -- someone's constitutional rights are being violated.


Mac,

We commented on the article you posted. I don't know if anything in the article is true. The VA and the teacher can't really say much now that the lawsuit has been filed and I'm not going to accept a lawyers statement as fact without hearing out the other side.

I definitely don't advocate censorship, but as far as the rules on chaplains from the military, when preachers of any faith choose to be a chaplain they have to abide by the military's rules. If they can't accept those rules, they shouldn't become chaplains.

Every member of the military gives up a TON of freedoms when you join. You are agreeing to allow someone to tell you when to eat, when to sleep, when to take a shower, how to dress, how to act, how to think, what to do, when to do it, etc.

For the record, I fully support a ministers right to pray in Jesus' name. I also think that same preacher should exercise a little consideration for other peoples faith in an interfaith service or situation.

I just haven't seen anything conclusive that says they are being told not to use Jesus' name in a Christian service.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (11/14/13 05:39 PM)
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................................
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#221373 - 11/15/13 07:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
'God Bless America' gets veteran in hot water with employer

Source is: KCRA TV, not Fox, not hardly.


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#221375 - 11/15/13 08:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3351
Loc: WV, USA
I read that this morning Mac. If I'd put "God Bless America" as a tag line in my email with my previous employer, I'd been fired on the spot.

My boss and his boss were both Christians, but they would have expected me to use more common sense than that.
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Bob
................................
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#221378 - 11/15/13 08:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2095
employers have always been allowed to control what personal info or messages you put in official company communications.


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (11/15/13 08:55 PM)

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#221379 - 11/15/13 08:57 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
What is the official codified motto of the United States of
America?
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#221381 - 11/15/13 09:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3351
Loc: WV, USA
He didn't work for the USA. He worked for a hospital. wink
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................................
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#221383 - 11/15/13 09:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
What nation is that hospital in?
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PG Music News
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