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I have gone through many stomp boxes, with my acoustic guitar, to try to get a good sound. I finally got tired of changing batteries and lots of cables linking them together, and bought a Yamaha fx-500. It has alot of effects built in with presets and user areas. I have spent many hours tweeking effects, and not alot of time happy with the results. I'm thinking compression, chorus, and delay are the ones that I probably need to dial in for the kind of sound I'm looking for. I have searched the web for the "secret" settings to get that cool, fat, hot. . . responsive sound. It is hard to put into words. I have a link I am going to put at the bottom of this, for a sound that is pretty close to what I am after. I was hoping some of you might recognize the effect by ear, or may want to share how you effect your guitars for your stuff. I am tired of searching, and tweeking and coming up with something, ok. . . but not great. Listen to the link if you have time to give you an idea of where I'm going with this, and maybe share what you think will give me that sound. Steven Stills also has it in his song Treetop Flyer. It is on youtube. It's the live version. I can post that link if you want.

Thank you for your time.
Gene
http://dalesanders.com/mps/when%20you%20say%20nothin.mp3

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Hi Gene

Would not surprise me if He is using nylon strings instead
of usual bronze type,because there is no fret noise?

The rest of the sound is just reverb with a touch of compression.

Depending how you record the guitar makes a lot of difference
as well,using a decent mic and amplifier,but it may be the guitar
was miked up and recorded acoustically.

So many alternate ways of doing things,I share your frustration.

Alan

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Gene,

What kind of amp are you using ?


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Another person I would look to for information on the sound you seek is Craig Chaquico. I have seen various setups of his described in great detail.

Following is what I would in chasing the ideal. It costs several hundred dollars and requires the services of a luthier, but gives you studio-quality sound in any situation. I do not address amplifiers as I go direct to the board when playing live.

I look first at how the guitar itself is set up. The frets have a tremendous effect on a guitar's sound. I had my Alvarez-Yairi D-41 copy refretted in the early 80s after reading an article on Ry Cooder in which he said he achieved a bell-like Strat sound in his Takamine electric-acoustic by going to wide or "fat" frets. I began to see some of that difference. (I also had to re-read the short paragraph in the article before I fully believed that he was describing that sound coming out of an acoustic instrument.) Of course, refretting is only if you want that extra resonance, but I recommend having your guitar's action adjusted for your gauge strings and the frets dressed if you have never had this done.

Next is the string sound. Stephen Stills and I use bell-bronze wound strings, and likely Chaquico as well. I have used nothing but Dean Markley bronze-wound steel strings since I bought my guitar from him in 1972. At the time there was nothing comparable; now it's loyalty. FRESH strings are important. When I was gigging regularly I changed strings daily. In the studio I did so more often.

Last thing I would do to the guitar itself in seeking that ideal acoustic sound would be to have my acoustic miked internally (that's what I said) AND have a palathetic* pickup installed under the bridge, with a mixing panel installed on the guitar. This was an entirely custom technique when it was written up many years ago in Guitar Player, but I'm willing to bet there are kits out there now with the electronics included. At the time it took a custom preamp and mixer mounted in the guitar. The internal mic gets all the nuances of the wood, but omits much of the finger sound.

NOW we get to the effects. Digital is a given, being infinitely flexible and near silent. Reverb, yes. Dale Sanders and Craig Chaquico both use chorus; I'm not certain that Stills was. Light compression can add to the 'sheen', but is only necessary if you lack an even right-hand technique or want added sustain. Otherwise I might consider an expander for that "hot" sound you describe.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. HTH,

R.

*This is the type used in Takamine brand acoustic electrics. They differ from standard piezo pickups in that they sense motion in three axes, whereas a piezo does so only in two. It adds a subtle but significant dimension to the sound.


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Hi guitarman;
I know it is not nylon in this case.

Powderman;
I do not use an amp, I go directly in to the board.

Ryz;
Very interesting. I expected a big explaination on effects, but you went another direction. The guitar itself. Makes perfect sense. Right now I have a Fender acoustic, and a Yamaha (that I traded an ovation for, didn't like all the plastic). The Yamaha came with a bridge mounted pickup. I don't know how to tell if it is the kind of which you speak. I also added another one. Don't recall the brand, but it was round, about the size of a quarter. I found the sweet spot, and stuck it on the inside at the same place. Sometimes I run two cords and mix them for some pretty good sounds. I have always used Martin Marquis strings, fresh. I had a great Takamine 12 string, but sold it. Dum move. . . Maybe I will start by getting the Yamaha into the guitar tech, and have him work it over. Then at least that end of things would be covered. I have all the usual effects, and can put them in any order, if I want to break the usual audio chain theory, even parallel with stereo out. I swear, sometimes just knowing what to add, and how much is an art on to itself.

Gene

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We used that Yammie effect box back in the late 80's, early 90's
While it was pretty good for its purpose, we struggled with getting some sounds we were after. This may be the case with you. It has some neat sounds, especially for electric guitar, but is not an 'ace of all trades' box in my opinion.

If I remember correctly, it doesn't have an XLR input so you must be using the pickups, which may be part of your struggle. That sound may be easier to get by using a mic, so you can control the body resonance easier.
Another thought - I can email the guy who owns the one we used, as he is a guitar player too, and see if he has anything programmed in his already that is close.


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Stop using the commonly included piezo undersaddle bridge pickup. Kill the quack.

Replace it with an LR Baggs I-Beam pickup, for about a hundred dollars US, most times can be connected to the existing built in preamp box.

That's the first step.

As for your examples cited, the one you posted certainly has a bit of phase shifter in it, what kind and its settings is the unknown here, could be anything from a stompbox to one of those Acoustic Guitar Amplifiers with built in effects and multiple speakers ala the Fender Acoustics.

Steve Stills, the live version came up first on youtube for me, that is almost certainly a very good /D-45 with a Baggs I-Beam or similar pickup in it. No phase shift that I could hear, at least not from electronics, just a doggone good sound system and engineer.

The venrable old Yamaha AG Stomp pedal with the Baggs pickup might prove to be a satisfying combination for you, not only for recording, but for reproducing the sound you recorded in live performance easily.


--Mac

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On my Larrivee, I have an LR Baggs, under saddle, with the notch filter system, It all starts with a quality guitar of course. When I want live fx, I use a phase shifter I use the Behringer, but the MXR is probably better. I set it to minimum settings, just to get a hint of the effect. I usually run the guitar thru a compressor first, I have found that my Ashdown bass compressor works best for my liking. Its a dual band compressor and allows me to adjust for the sound I want.

For recording, I usually record direct to board dry, and use plugins, or I will mic the guitary with two condensers into two channels and eq them and pan them differently. Of course this is for serious work only, usually im to lazy to do all that set up in my limited space. I used do go to the vocal booth with a C-414 and play the accoustic stuff that way, but I don't do much studio stuff anymore and don't have a vocal booth.

Just keep experimenting with simple setups until you find the sound you like. I have found that for accoustic, the guitar makes the difference. It is after all an accoustic guitar. Fx are just afterthoughts and should be used only when and where they are needed.

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If you want to record using a built in acoustic pickup, or perform live with one, the Bagss I-Beam is THE way to go, man.


--Mac

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Sounds like a Godin Multiac.


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I agree with Mac on all accounts. Although I've been using the same Dean Markley pick-up for almost 30 years now and still works great.

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The Martin strings are great. Just have the action set for that brand and the gauge you use; most techs will do it for between $35-$50. Fret dressing is a little extra, but worth it. Refretting is a whole 'nother deal, of course, but it changed my whole acoustic sound. I highly recommend it.

The Baggs pickup is more current than my knowledge and is certainly the way to go. I would still take a hard look at that internal mic in addition. It adds a dimension that no pickup can. You're already used to running two cords, so if you can't get it as an integrated install (but I'd try, using a three-conductor end-pin jack and cord) you're ready to go.

Mac's comment about the phase shifter surprised me, but I rarely doubt him. Each level of time-domain effect--phase shifter, flanger, and chorus--is characterized by a longer delay time and correspondingly smoother sound. I've never heard a PS that smooth--I'd love to know who makes it. Anyway, look up Chaquico's acoustic rig; I am certain he will have good pointers for you.

You're asking the right questions. Keep at it and one of these days we'll be looking up your rig.

R.


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Digital phase shift.

An A-D followed by Digital Signal Processing.

Its all in the numbers then.

Saaome of them actually clone the digital track and simply time-shift the clone as it plays along with the original sig. In that fashion you can control the amplitude of either in a very tight blend.


--Mac

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I really recommend you give Mac's advice a serious consideration. I too was looking for the holy grail of sound, keeping in mind your personal touch plays a huge part. I have a Tanglewood C45 that has great acoustic sound and action. I played 6 of the same model before settling on my choice. As I said acoustically the sound is great! However the pickup sound sucked big time. On this same forum Mac recommended the LR Baggs I Beam pickup, so I bought one. I simply removed the Fishman piezo from under the bridge, installed the Baggs and connected it to the Fishman controls. The sound is great. Sometimes I D.I. it, sometimes I D.I. and mike it, and sometimes I play it straight through my amp. I any event any configuration I use my guitar sounds great. Thanks Mac.
Dennis


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Well, thank all of you for sharing your thoughts. I know capturing the acoustic guitar sound is worth putting some time into. For instance, one guy that used to record me mic'd the guitar straight toward the hole like we have all seen, then he took another mic and pointed it straight down from the top about even with the hole. I had never seen that before. Then mixed them together for a good sound.
I may have to retire my fx-500, it is very old, and kind of noisy anyway. I had to hardwire the power switch to "on" years ago, all the ins go right to the board. Not really a well built unit.
Mac said about $100. for the LR Baggs I beam.
Ok I will look for this I Beam thing on Musician's friend, or locally, and see what happens. I have been an acoustic player for much longer than electric, so I just want to put all my effort in to that of course. I get too ranchy when I play electric. I don't know how to play to clean. Probably from my rock and roll daze.

Well thank you guys for sharing your secrets, it is helpful.

Gene

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Don't know if you'll find one at The Fiend, but take a look.

I get my guitar parts from StewMac mostly.

The Ibeam search brought this up on the StewMac website.

Note that there are two versions there, the first is just the pickup by itself, which can be installed under the bridgeplate using the sticky tape provided, follow their directions, then cut the jack off of the end if you have a built in piezo preamp and attach the pickup wires to the same point where the original undersaddle piezo pickup connected.

The second one includes their preamp, for use with guitars that don't have a built in preamp already, or perhaps with a guitar that has a less than stellar preamp in it.


--Mac

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Effect chain on the linked track sure sounds like compression and then some chorus, and then reverb to me. The sound is a little too 'watery' to my ears for it to be a simple delayed copy - sorry to disagree with others on that point here. The giveaway is the very last strummed chord. That's chorus or even a flanger there without a doubt.

Also sounds like some OLD strings, or the highs rolled off quite a bit. I think it could be a piezo under saddle transducer, with the highs dialed out to get rid of the quack.

An I-beam will sound much better than this particular song example; at least all by itself. I-beams do a decent job letting one hear what the guitar actually sounds like. This recording is just the sound of the pickup - could even be a soundhole magnetic pickup by the sound of it. There's no 'wood' to the sound.

-Scott

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Mac and rockstar;

Thanks for the input. I just might get the one with the preamp. I have always had a brassy sound to my acoustic recordings. No matter how I eq'd. I was actually looking for more of a ballsy, mid tone woody sound, but yet with some definite "responsive-ness" to the strings. Kind of like you could hear when I just layed my hands on the strings. Not just over amplified, but with resonance. Hard to put in words, but when I hear it, when someone plays, I always ask what they are using. But you know, it's like it's some big industry secret. It's not like they won't get anymore gigs, because they shared their settings.
I'm not going to use it all the time, because I do like the "string" sound. This is definitely electronic in nature I guess, by that I mean "effected acoustic guitar". I just never could figure out what and how much.
Anyway, thank you all, and Mac, for the link.

Gene

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Gene, I have one tip for you, that I learned years back from a great guitarist.

The subject at the time was Telecasters, but that makes no difference.

I asked the fellow about his settings and all because we were both basically using the same guitar and amp setup at the time, his sounded smooth and mine, well, I was always fighting the thing.

He said this: "Just mess with everything until you get it where it feels like you are playing acoustic guitar."

I said, rather naively, "FEELS?"

Thinking that listening was more appropriate.

He said, "Yup, if you can make any amplified guitar respond in feel as if it were a good acoustic without an amp does, then it will sound good."

That bit of advice led me to be more concerned about the feel of the note sustains in the actual guitar than the sound coming out of the amp and with a bit of experiment and practice at it, really works well for me.

Along the way I also found out that an amp sitting on the floor doesn't allow me to get that feel as easily as an amp that is raised. First time, I put the amp on one of the club's chairs. Worked. So I picked up a folding amp stand.

The same applies to the amplified acoustic flattop, maybe moreso. Try to set the amp's gain and EQ such that the amplified guit FEELS like it does when unamplified in an intimate environment at home.

This one works like a charm in the studio, too. If I can get that feel thing happenin' then the tracking engineer has a very easy job of things. In the studio this also involves very careful tweaking of the monitoring (headphone feed typically) also.


--Mac

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Mac;

Thanks for that. I was a sound man for a large casino a few years back. I had the pleasure of meeting all the acts, and setting them up. We had racks for their amps that put them up at about knee level, and angled back. We originally did it to keep the guitar players from knocking the head off of the pit boss. (who was a pit bull!) The players actually liked it once they tried it because sound being very directional, was coming more toward their ears now.

That is some good advice about the feel. I will try that. I have an amp, but live in an apartment right now until my divorce is final, and then I will see if I have enough money left (!) to get back into a house. So I have been going right into the board lately, but some of the adjustment settings you mentioned could still apply.

Thanks, as always. You are knowledgable in many areas it seems.

Gene

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